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Author Topic: One party rule forever
TommySama
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This was an excellent article. OSC seamlessly moved from restructuring the flow of information between the office of the president and Commerce Department to naked power grab (wrapped in the thick, insulating garb of The Left and The Democrats) to our most fundamental right - voting, becoming useless.

A few points I don't think have really been addressed:
*First, I 100% agree that the Census should be gathered as independently as possible. How to do this is not clear. The government is a system which runs on non-biodegradable, polluting politics. Making some sort of "bipartisan" board which will make changing the Census nearly impossible is the best way I can see to ensure dramatic abuses of it don't happen.

*Second, OSC said:
quote:
Your vote is about to be discounted. Your most basic freedom as an American -- the right to vote and have a real chance at changing things -- is being taken away.
Card’s main problem was not with the change of structure Obama just implemented. His problem is changing the Census to allow estimation of people it knows exist, but is unable to physically count.
If you aren’t able to physically count entire segments of the voting population for whatever reason, and allocate representatives and electoral college votes based on the people you did count, you have diminished the votes of the uncounted segments. Refusing to estimate the size of that population is where the real potential to harm the right to vote comes from. Now, Card thinks that estimating will lead to abuse. Certainly that is possible, which is why oversight should be extremely strict. But not counting those groups of people effectively neuters, not their right to vote, but the intended result of their right to vote - THE VOTE ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING.

" If the Census has been jimmied to give Democratic-leaning states more congressional seats and more electoral votes than the actual count of real people would justify, the Democrats will have their "historic realignment" without having to actually persuade anybody new to vote for their candidates. "

OSC has now officially stated that he does not consider minorities and the poor to be people.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Votes are a form of political currency. We hold sacrosanct the quantum of one person/one vote. But that goes against the nature of humanity, in which all beings strive for inequity. We may take comfort in the town hall view of all men equally franchised but reality long ago superceded (or subceded?) this notion.

In fact, it was a false measure from day one. Not everyone votes.

In time, I foresee systems forming that allow persons to invest in and accrue far more bang for their vote than that of another. When we finally come to truly believe in the power of politics, that the personal is the political (to borrow from 60s/70s rhetoric), we will place that power in the open marketplace as we do everything else from human life to sex to homicide.

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Adam Masterman
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Wow, I thought I would take heat for that drawing. Maybe its true that no one reads World Watch anymore.

Adam

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kenmeer livermaile
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I suspect Orson thinks most of us are poor deluded children.
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JoshCrow
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I think OSC took a disliking to Obama somewhere in the political process (I don't recall the exact point) and has since set his phasers on "KILL" without really ever stepping back. I'm not sure there's anything rational behind it anymore - it's like a botched case of "first impressions" from which no recovery is possible.
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kenmeer livermaile
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He's pushing 60. Entering crazy old coot zone. I;m right behind him.
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RickyB
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"I think OSC took a disliking to Obama somewhere in the political process (I don't recall the exact point)"

Right about where he became the nomineee de facto. March-Aprilish.

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Wayward Son
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Oh, yeah. Just at the time the Right realized they didn't have Hillary to kick around any more. [Smile]
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kenmeer livermaile
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It's funny, too, because Obama is relatively hawkish regarding raghead Muslim terrorists.
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Everard
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Well, yeah, but he doesn't hate gays. or liberals. and he doesn't like torture. so OSC can't think he's anything but evil.
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kenmeer livermaile
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It IS funny watching sanity reassert itself in America.
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Wayward Son
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To be fair, Everard, OSC doesn't hate gays, either. He hates homosexuality. And he doesn't like torture, either. He just believes we should do everything possible to protect our nation. At least, that's my take on his positions.

But you seem right on insofar as liberals, though. [Wink]

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Everard
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"To be fair, Everard, OSC doesn't hate gays, either."

*shrug* I'm not sure that's true. I think he does.

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rightleft22
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Projection
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kmbboots
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I don't think it is hatred so much as a rather smug pity.
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Everard
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Of course its projection. All I have to go by are his words, and i can only conceive of writing the words he's written out of hatred.
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scifibum
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I think he feels more enmity than hate, based on an agenda, one that he subjectively perceives from certain factions, rather than all gay people, that he finds abhorrent. If gay people would quietly accept the judgment of mainstream religious America, I don't think Card would have much of a problem with them.

Not that there's much reason for gay rights activists to draw such a fine distinction. He doesn't want them to get what they want. <shrug>

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munga
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
"To be fair, Everard, OSC doesn't hate gays, either."

*shrug* I'm not sure that's true. I think he does.

And if we gave gays the choice between

Americans who hate them, but give the gay community equal access to the instruments of the civil law...

V

Americans who "like" them, and withhold the instruments of the civil law...

I think the gay community, just like me, would rather have all the civil rights they can and damn the opinions of others.

[ March 02, 2009, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: munga ]

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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by natural_mystic:
Was OSC similarly outraged by the Texas redistricting and the stated Rovian goal of a permanent majority?

Well yeah, obviously. Because Orson Scott "I'm A Card Carrying Democrat So You Know I'm Not Biased When I Slam The Dems" Card just has such a long track record of giving unbiased criticism of the Republicans whenever it's needed [Smile]
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jimskater
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
"To be fair, Everard, OSC doesn't hate gays, either."

*shrug* I'm not sure that's true. I think he does.

And if we gave gays the choice between

Americans who hate them, but give the gay community equal access to the instruments of the civil law...

V

Americans who "like" them, and withhold the instruments of the civil law...

I think the gay community, just like me, would rather have all the civil rights they can and damn the opinions of others.

I'll take one from column A, thank you very much.

Give me equal access to the civil compact and I give a flyin' rat's ass what people think of my "lifestyle".

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Kelly G Willis
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
I think OSC took a disliking to Obama somewhere in the political process (I don't recall the exact point) and has since set his phasers on "KILL" without really ever stepping back. I'm not sure there's anything rational behind it anymore - it's like a botched case of "first impressions" from which no recovery is possible.

Actually, if his essays on this website hold accurately, the turning point was then-Senator Obama's "guns or religion" speech that preceded the Pennsylvania Primary. Before that particular speech, Mr. Card was ambivalent about Obama, reserving his vitriol for then-Senator Clinton. After what seems to be (in my opinion) a well-thought out analysis, Card became convinced that Obama is a far-left-wing elitist, on par with many university faculties, and his vitriol for them is no secret. Hope that helps.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Because Orson Scott "I'm A Card Carrying Democrat So You Know I'm Not Biased When I Slam The Dems" Card"

Well, if he can't at least carry Card in the election, who can he carry?

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Give me equal access to the civil compact and I give a flyin' rat's ass what people think of my "lifestyle".

Which may be why so many faggots used to be conservatives, or so I've been led to believe. If they couldn't have civil protection, the next best thing was MONEY. So they'd vote for tax reductions since no social programs gave a damn about them, not to mention the law.

May shed a bit of light on all these old Republican dudes getting caught on their knees.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Oh, I almost forgot: that jimskater: wadda cocksucker! [Wink]
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munga
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If I ever construct a Plan of Salvation theme park, I'll import airport bathrooms just to make them feel comfortable.
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RickyB
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"Actually, if his essays on this website hold accurately, the turning point was then-Senator Obama's "guns or religion" speech that preceded the Pennsylvania Primary. "

Makes sense, Kelly, except we've seen it too many times - the minute a Democrat gets anywhere near power, Card decides they're the anti-christ. Happened with Kerry too.

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Kelly G Willis
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"Actually, if his essays on this website hold accurately, the turning point was then-Senator Obama's "guns or religion" speech that preceded the Pennsylvania Primary. "

Makes sense, Kelly, except we've seen it too many times - the minute a Democrat gets anywhere near power, Card decides they're the anti-christ. Happened with Kerry too.

Understood. I concede that it may be coincidence. I merely note that in essays prior to the speech, Card was rather hopeful that Obama would be an acceptable candidate, one that was perhaps naive but could learn. Afterward, it was an abrupt shift to the belief that Obama was set in his ways and would be forever unacceptable, as sudden a paradigm shift that I recall.

Just curious about this was the case with Kerry or not. I don't recall any real shift in the World Watch essays with Kerry than I saw with Obama. I simply assumed that Kerry was unacceptable to Card from the very beginning.

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RickyB
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Kerry wasn't black and Card didn't feel the need to tippee-toe. But yeah. Before Iowa he reserved his ire for other candidates (like Dean). After NH - Kerry was the devil.
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sburgernutr
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Redistricting has gone on forever between the parties even without changes to the census. I'm really disappointed that OSC is so partisan, despite his sometimes claims to the contrary.

The census, however, is a huge waste of taxpayer dollars and just as subject, if not more so, to all the same potential for abuse that a survey would. The bias involved in tracking down that last homeless person hiding in the subway station of New York is obvious. It is not the tool, but the users of the tool that holds the power to conduct a census or a survey in a fair manner or not.

In terms of efficiency, an appropriately designed survey would be far better and cost less.

OSC, great writer that he is MOST of the time, seems to have missed a few key points in biostatistics class of the same nature as the Center for Immigrant Families. The Center for Immigrant Families argued against an admissions process for out of network students in a good public school in New York because they thought it was unfair. They argued for a "lottery". People don't understand that a lottery doesn't abide by rules of "fairness" it is merely random. After the lottery was implemented the changing demographics of the area of the lottery produced what one could predict --- even FEWER immigrant families were admitted to the school. So, the economic and cultural diversity that my son enjoys in his fourth grade class is not replicated in subsequent classes that are mostly now sons and daughters of those who are moving down the economic ladder from their heights in the NY City Financial boom.

I don't believe in the conspiracy and I see no need to waste so much money tracking down the last human hiding in a swamp, a subway or squatting in a foreclosed home. The endless redistricting political power plays will still continue no matter how the counting is done. I'd rather see the money going towards programs that would stimulate our economy.

OSC needs to target the people using the tools, not the tools themselves.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
If Pres. Obama's plan was to skew the census wouldn't it have made more sense to just nominate a Commerce Secretary that would do it his way?

Yes, BUT that person would have to be confirmed by the Senate. By moving this from Commerce to the White House and eliminating the Senate oversight of the appointment, Obama has effectively conducted the kind of power grab the left constantly accused Bush of.
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kmbboots
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It wasn't moved from Commerce. It wasn't going to be moved from Commerce.

Do you really think that President Obama had to nominate a Republican to get his appointment through a Democratically controlled Senate.

You are not thinking this through.

And I am beyond astonished that this - what amounts to paying attention to department in the Exectutive Branch - is considered a scary power grab. Have you read those memos coming out of the DoJ?

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kenmeer livermaile
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kmboots: we must let them have their conspiracy fetish time. We had ours with Bush. Of course, most of ours proved true, as witness the recent burning of 94 CIA interrogation tapes and other released docs making plain that Bush was feeling quite dictatorial in his heydays.

Besides, the Right has been on a solid streak of proving itself near totally wrong, so why stop them now when they're so close to a wrap?

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Blayne Bradley
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I'ld like to state for the record that I still hold Mr Card in the highest levels of respect when it comes to his literary works and continue to buy and or pre order his books.

I just think his political essays (by the gods of asgard I hope they're secretely satire) have taken a turn for the worse.

If Jon Stewart or Colbert have said anything he wrote I'ld laugh hysterically.

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Michelle
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"Understood. I concede that it may be coincidence. I merely note that in essays prior to the speech, Card was rather hopeful that Obama would be an acceptable candidate, one that was perhaps naive but could learn. Afterward, it was an abrupt shift to the belief that Obama was set in his ways and would be forever unacceptable, as sudden a paradigm shift that I recall."

I agree with your original statement, because I too developed a mistrust of Obama at that Pennsylvania moment. Despite the fact I was singing his praises early on.

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Michelle
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"Yes, BUT that person would have to be confirmed by the Senate. By moving this from Commerce to the White House and eliminating the Senate oversight of the appointment, Obama has effectively conducted the kind of power grab the left constantly accused Bush of. "

Yeah, it would have been much easier for them to get away with this blatant grab of power had they been able to secure Judd Gregg for the Commerce position. Are you going to trust the republicans with the Census? The White House made the annoucement that they planned to make this move after Gregg was appointed.

[ March 10, 2009, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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kmbboots
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Michelle,

It wasn't a move. And of course the announcement came after the Gregg nomination. It was in response to the minority caucuses' concern about the appointment of Gregg. They were concerned about Gregg's handling of the census and the WH responded that they would work closely with the Director of the Census. That's it.

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Michelle
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Michelle,

It wasn't a move. And of course the announcement came after the Gregg nomination. It was in response to the minority caucuses' concern about the appointment of Gregg. They were concerned about Gregg's handling of the census and the WH responded that they would work closely with the Director of the Census. That's it.

Sorry. Not buying it. That sounds like a preplanned cover-spin to me.
I agree with Card on this one. it's a power-grab. Emanuel's prints are all over this.

How about it's time for us to say no more campaign managers working in the adminstration?

Not that I don't admire the Emanuels and Roves of the world, but once they get their man in place... Go home!

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kmbboots
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Barack Obama's campaign manager was David Plouffe.

[ March 11, 2009, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Michelle
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Specifically...but Emanuel played a heavy roll.

ETA: It still doesn't edit my position if you are on the team to 'elect', you shouldn't be a part of the team to 'run'.

It's worst than special interest.

[ March 13, 2009, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Lyrhawn
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I wasn't aware that Rahm was at all involved in the upper echelons of the Obama team during the campaign. He was engaged in the House Democratic leadership, he wasn't on the road with Obama. And for that matter, he supported Hillary Clinton up to the deciding of the nomination and convention.

This whole debacle was concocted by Liberals and congressional Republicans to make hay where none exists. It was a simple restatement of the same policy that's been used for at least the last two censuses, one under a Democrat and one under a Republican, and is NOT a change in any way of policy. Former Census Bureau Chiefs have said so.

Ironically, I think liberals get more of the blame for starting this one. Liberal minority groups were freaked out when Obama announced Gregg as the Commerce secretary, and thought he'd screw them over like past censuses have when they were hoping for a more accurate count, so they cried foul, but because they actually want sampling, and believed Gregg wouldn't do it. Republicans picked up on this and took a restatement of policy as a statement of NEW policy and hammered it over and over until many news outlets reported that Obama was taking control of the Census with no proof in any way that such a thing was actually occurring.

If anyone can point me to the document or announcement that changes stated existing policies for the Census, please do so, and we can have that discussion. Otherwise this is seriously much ado about absolutely nothing.

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