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» The Ornery American Forum » World Watch » Winning with Immigration (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Winning with Immigration
Seneca
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Because when I see pundits and politicians use it they are just trying to discredit their opposition with ad-hominem attacks rather than address what they are saying. It's a lot easier to call someone a bigot than to explain why some people get to break the law but not others.
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NobleHunter
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You're hewing too closely to the amnesty issue as you read my statements. I'm talking far more generally. Calling them bigots *is* addressing what they're saying.
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Seneca
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How? Show me a national GOP politician who is openly racist against Hispanics.
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NobleHunter
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No. Too much effort.

Your statement has a low semantic reliability score.

I doubt we could gain agreement on sources.

And you're still being too specific.

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Seneca
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Too specific? When you throw around words like "bigots" as a way to discredit opponents of a policy you should be very specific...
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NobleHunter
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But I'm not talking about them as opponents of a policy.
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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Rampant Speculation (with neither data nor charity):

In order to sell the amnesty to its bigot wing, the GOP had to promote narratives about immigrants that hispanics voters didn't like.

Who is in the "bigot wing?" Can you even name one person and explain why?
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NobleHunter
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Santorum. Google it.
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Seneca
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Ok, can you name an actual GOP Congress person who needed to be catered to for votes as you claim from during an amnesty period or during the recent legislative debate over the senate bill? Santorum is not one...
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NobleHunter
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I swear those goalposts were right here a moment ago.
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AI Wessex
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Consider that it is first and 10, and that it is always first and 10. I recommend that you punt.

[ May 14, 2014, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: AI Wessex ]

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Rampant Speculation (with neither data nor charity):

In order to sell the amnesty to its bigot wing, the GOP had to promote narratives about immigrants that hispanics voters didn't like.

Let's be fair here. The only people that need to be "sold" would be people voting on a bill right? Is that really an unreasonable expectation for that statement?

Are you really saying out of multiple groups of hundreds of people you cannot name EVEN ONE that you would describe as a bigot? Not eve from the 85 amnesty Congress? Seriously?

I know of a guy who lives in Alabama and used to be a senator, and he's racist and a democrat. Can I now make sweeping statements about the "bigot wing" of the Democrat party and how they need to be catered to on modern votes and debates despite how long that one guy has been out of office?

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NobleHunter
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The base in general would also need to be sold on the issue, so that they'd re-elect the people who voted on it.

I was just proposing in an alternative explanation for the drop in immigrant support following the amnesties.

And fair? I'm not inclined to be fair.

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Seneca
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Is that a joke? How often does Congress vote on things that it's constituents hate we see it almost never result in incumbents getting ousted. I find that "explanation" even more bogus than the first.
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NobleHunter
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So congresspeople never try vote against the interests of their constituents? How'd all those TARP votes work out for the GOP again?

Or they never try and spin the votes they did make into something their constituents like?

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Seneca
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For an outrageous claim that bigots needed to be catered to and thus provisions related to merely enforcing current law were added to a bill, you need some pretty strong evidence. That is an incredibly wild and offensive accusation and seems more like an attempt to silence people who want the law enforced by making them sound evil.
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NobleHunter
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No, it's about making people who want to make evil laws sound evil. NB: I'm not talking about the amnesty or illegal immigration here.

I said nothing about provisions being add to a law. I said that bigots would be against an amnesty and implied it would be for reasons other than its merit.

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Seneca
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So bigots are against laws being enforced? Seriously?

You know what else bigots like? Ice cream. So what?

You are doing an incredible disservice toward any point you may be trying to make.

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NobleHunter
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No, bigots are against an amnesty for illegal immigrants. Historically, they've also been against enforcing laws prohibiting murder.
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Seneca
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Wow. Just, wow.

What is the significance of pointing out that some bigots MIGHT be against amnesty other than to try and discredit the larger body of Americans who aren't bigoted at all but simply want our immigration laws duly enforced as they are written?

[ May 15, 2014, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Seneca ]

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NobleHunter
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Uh? That the influence bigots have on the public discourse can result in toxic narratives around amnesty and illegal immigration?

What do you think my position on amnesty is, anyways?

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Seneca
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
Uh? That the influence bigots have on the public discourse can result in toxic narratives around amnesty and illegal immigration?

What do you think my position on amnesty is, anyways?

Do you think the majority of people against amnesty are bigots? If you agree that the majority of people who want laws enforced are not bigots then what is the point of this? Who cares if some very small minority of people want laws enforced for bad reasons?
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Greg Davidson
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What percentage of Republicans are bigots? Well, I don't believe that people can be entirely labeled by bigotry, so if you will accept the alternative definition of "What percentage of Republicans have performed acts of bigotry?", then I can prepare an answer.

It is racism and bigotry when you ask a black guy to show his papers to prove he is legitimate, when you have never asked the same question before to hundreds of similar white guys (including those with less clarity about their birthplace). The birther movement, and the political support for it within the Republican Party, was an act of bigotry

About half of all Republican Primary voters, registered Republicans, and those who self-identified as Republicans believed that President Obama was not an American citizen in numerous polls in 2011 and 2012.

quote:
When I see a former governor say that the President is “shuckin’ and jivin’,” that’s racial era slave term. When I see another former governor after the president’s first debate where he didn’t do very well, says that the president was lazy. He didn’t say he was slow. He was tired. He didn’t do well. He said he was lazy. Now, it may not mean anything to most Americans, but to those of us who are African Americans, the second word is shiftless and then there’s a third word that goes along with that. The birther, the whole birther movement. Why do senior Republican leaders tolerate this kind of discussion within the party?”
Colin Powell, January 13, 2013
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Seneca
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Though I'm certainly not a "birther" surely you must admit that it might well have less to do with his skin tone and more to do with his foreign connections and tons of time spent abroad so near his birth as well as his foreign parent.
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AI Wessex
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No, it mostly has to do with the color of his skin. Time he might have spent abroad after he was born can hardly have influenced people's beliefs about where he was born. Call it for what it is, but racial or ethnic prejudice is hard for some people to overcome in this society. It's hard for Jews and Hispanics in some places, but especially hard for blacks in many, many places. A story recently in the news looked at a town in Kansas that still is fighting itself over a lynching of 3 black men 60 years ago. Many of the townspeople still don't get why it was treated as such a big deal. Birthers need a reason for their prejudice, because they're convinced they're not prejudiced if they have one.
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NobleHunter
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Seneca, I doubt it. Because the influence bigots have on the public discourse can result in toxic narratives around amnesty and illegal immigration.
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Seneca
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A whole lot of mind reading going on here with seemingly no basis in reality to support the accusation of bigotry in the form of racism with regards to the mass scale it's being applied to.
And normally while it wouldn't be that big of a deal, in this instance that heinous accusation is attempting to be used to discredit and marginalize people who simply want laws enforced and criminals not to get let off the hook.

I'm going to ask again. Are most people against amnesty bigots or not?

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AI Wessex
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quote:
And normally while it wouldn't be that big of a deal, in this instance that heinous accusation is attempting to be used to discredit and marginalize people who simply want laws enforced and criminals not to get let off the hook.
Is this position based on your belief in individual Freedom? You don't trust the police, of which you were an active member for many years, so why do you keep arguing that Freedom implies cost and then insist that we need more law enforcement. I seriously don't understand how you can hold so many contradictory opinions at once without going completely nuts.
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NobleHunter
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I already answered that question.
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Seneca
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Where did you give an amount or distinguish between whether the majority were bigots or not? I re-scanned the whole web page, nothing from you on that is here.
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NobleHunter
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I said I doubt most people against the amnesty are bigots.
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Seneca
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Then what is even the point of bringing it up? I can pick half a dozen of the democrats' major issues and point out how there are small amounts of horrible people for and against each for equally horrible reasons, so what?

This kind of thing is destructive to debate and discourse.

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NobleHunter
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Because the influence bigots have on the public discourse can result in toxic narratives around amnesty and illegal immigration. And pretending that they don't is a good way to ensure nothing changes.
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Seneca
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But given that they are a vast minority of the people wanting laws enforced, what needs to change vs the presence of a small amount of crazies on nearly every other conceivable issue?
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NobleHunter
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Bigoted narratives need to be countered and de-legitimized.
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Seneca
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Does that need to happen before we enforce laws and fix things?
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NobleHunter
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You probably won't succeed at fixing things if you don't.
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Seneca
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So a small minority of people who want laws enforced have a problem is that they want laws enforced for the "wrong reasons." If the result of their "evil" desires are that they want laws enforced, what specific damage are they causing that needs to be rectified?
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NobleHunter
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Bigoted narratives stigmatize arguments against amnesty and make it easier for proponents to taint the opposition. Ask Pete how that works.

Also, those narratives do an amazing amount of harm completely unrelated to the amnesty debate.

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Seneca
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Eh fine I guess... so long as we agree that just because some bigots don't want amnesty that that is no way shape or form a reason to support it in any way. [Smile]
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