Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » World Watch » Nizar Najoef on WMD in Syria

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Nizar Najoef on WMD in Syria
WmLambert
Member
Member # 604

 - posted      Profile for WmLambert   Email WmLambert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From Debka.com:
quote:
A senior Syrian journalist reports Iraq’s WMD located in three Syrian sites.

Nizar Najoef, a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe and is known for bravely challenging the Syrian regime, said in a letter Monday, January 5, to Dutch newspaper “Di Telegraaf,” that he knows the three sites where Iraq’s WMD are kept. The storage places are:

  • Tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria. These tunnels are an integral part of an underground factory, built by the North Koreans, for producing Syrian Scud missiles. Iraqi chemical weapons and long-range missiles are stored in these tunnels.
  • The village of Tal Snan, north of the town of Salamija, where there is a big Syrian airforce camp. Vital parts of Iraq’s WMD are stored there.
  • The city of Sjinsjar on the Syrian border with the Lebanon, south of the city Homs.
Najoef writes that the transfer of Iraqi WMD to Syria was organized by the commanders of Saddam Hussein’s Special Republican Guard, including General Shalish, with the help of Assif Shoakat , Bashar Assad’s cousin. Shoakat is the CEO of Bhaha, an import/export company owned by the Assad family.
In February 2003, a month before America’s invasion in Iraq, DEBKAfile and DEBKA-Net-Weekly were the only media to report the movement of Iraqi WMD, the efforts to bring them from Iraq to Syria, and the personal involvement of Bashar Assad and his family in the operation.
Najoef, who has won prizes for journalistic integrity, says he wrote his letter because he has terminal cancer.



[ January 05, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: WmLambert ]

Posts: 1372 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Storm Saxon
Member
Member # 1070

 - posted      Profile for Storm Saxon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Debka has been reporting that the Iraqis buried WMD in Syria for some time now and that we have forces looking for them there. [Smile]
Posts: 2936 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Storm Saxon
Member
Member # 1070

 - posted      Profile for Storm Saxon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And in any case, we've got the head cheese. I'm sure by this point we've already slipped ol Saddam some kind of hypnotic and he's spilled his guts and told us exactly where any WMD are, if the do exist.
Posts: 2936 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WmLambert
Member
Member # 604

 - posted      Profile for WmLambert   Email WmLambert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes Storm, I posted the link to Debka's story about the US and Turkish Army babysitting the 600 square mile Syrian desert area thought to have much of the Iraqi WMD. It is still available on the Debka web site. I also posted this one. The earlier story revolved around our satellite surveillance and how we have been examining the footage in real-time trying to pinpoint where the trucks ended up, as well as verify that they weren't moved subsequently. This letter by a well-thought of journalist is simply fodder for thought. The existence of the letter isn't in doubt - it is its accuracy.
Posts: 1372 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mv
Member
Member # 462

 - posted      Profile for mv     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
And in any case, we've got the head cheese. I'm sure by this point we've already slipped ol Saddam some kind of hypnotic and he's spilled his guts and told us exactly where any WMD are, if the do exist. --SS
Assuming he even knows. It is also possible that he simply ordered to dissappear the weapons and never bothered to say or find out where. [Big Grin]
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Storm Saxon
Member
Member # 1070

 - posted      Profile for Storm Saxon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
William, I missed that thread. Pardon. I actually do read their site every now and then. [Smile]

[ January 05, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]

Posts: 2936 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robertson, Ugly and Nohow
Member
Member # 1375

 - posted      Profile for Robertson, Ugly and Nohow   Email Robertson, Ugly and Nohow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What's Debka about? Are they a legitimate news site? Does there stuff they report end up being fairly accurate? How do they get so much more insider info than you see on other news sources?

Just curious. I've only just recently found that site and I'd like to know how many grains of salt I should use when reading things there.

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Storm Saxon
Member
Member # 1070

 - posted      Profile for Storm Saxon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Use a lot of salt. [Wink]
Posts: 2936 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jedilaw
Member
Member # 1020

 - posted      Profile for jedilaw   Email jedilaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WM is relying on them? Bring a whole box of salt, and a few gallons of salt water for good measure.
Posts: 1600 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WmLambert
Member
Member # 604

 - posted      Profile for WmLambert   Email WmLambert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
RUN Debka is run out of San Francisco, an apartment-based web site much like Matt Drudge. I believe it is obstensibly a father and daughter team who somehow have a direct line into the Mossad - the Israeli Intelligence Agency. Over the years, I've seen some very intelligent commentary and stories not covered elsewhere that turn out to be dead on. Every now and then there may be an article that is proved wrong - but they are pretty good at expunging those articles and correcting any errors.

Unlike Drudge, they are not picking up stories from other news agencies that are buried on back pages beneath the fold, The articles they present are by and large scoops not covered anywhere else. Quite often there is just enough information presented to show that something is going on - and is an indicator to keep your antennae up.

Posts: 1372 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jedilaw
Member
Member # 1020

 - posted      Profile for jedilaw   Email jedilaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey, WM, did this site tell you that Watergate was an attempt to plug an intel leak? LOL

quote:
Go study your history and you'll see that the whole mess started because of actual leaks within the intelligence community. Nixon set up the plumbers to find out who in his own intelligence community was committing treason. The start of this had nothing to do with Democrats or McGovern. It got to the point where leaks were traced all the way back to them, though - which was the reason the plumbers broke into the Watergate offices. Had they found the evidence they were looking for -would Watergate have happened? Or would traitors have had to own up to what they were doing?
From this thread .
Posts: 1600 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robertson, Ugly and Nohow
Member
Member # 1375

 - posted      Profile for Robertson, Ugly and Nohow   Email Robertson, Ugly and Nohow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the info. I'll read stuff there with a : 'That's an interesting possibility' frame of mind.
Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WmLambert
Member
Member # 604

 - posted      Profile for WmLambert   Email WmLambert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
jedilaw to be fair you should include all the pertinent parts of the quote:
quote:
Yes Watergate was nasty, but it is wrong to say "I blame Nixon because of the level of personal spite he injected. He pulled the Watergate stunt because he felt insecure about his stature and wanted a huge victory. All the stops were pulled out to hurt McGovern as much as possible." That's just wrong. Go study your history and you'll see that the whole mess started because of actual leaks within the intelligence community. Nixon set up the plumbers to find out who in his own intelligence community was committing treason. The start of this had nothing to do with Democrats or McGovern. It got to the point where leaks were traced all the way back to them, though - which was the reason the plumbers broke into the Watergate offices. Had they found the evidence they were looking for -would Watergate have happened? Or would traitors have had to own up to what they were doing? I dunno... the way things ended up Nixon resigned rather than put the country through crisis. Before he resigned he had won the legal position where he could not be impeached and would not have been forced from office, but considered the acrimony too destabilizing to endure.
One nice thing about history is that it happened and you can sometimes go back and review it. The leaks anout Ellsberg were one thing. The leaks from his own "people" within the Pentagon, the CIA, and the FBI are what caused the formation of the plumbers.
Posts: 1372 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
chunga01
Member
Member # 1190

 - posted      Profile for chunga01   Email chunga01   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
jedi,

quote:
WM is relying on them? Bring a whole box of salt, and a few gallons of salt water for good measure.
Umm, how is this not ad hominem? Your feelings for Wm aside, why not attack the information rather than the messenger?
Posts: 150 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jedilaw
Member
Member # 1020

 - posted      Profile for jedilaw   Email jedilaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
One nice thing about history is that it happened and you can sometimes go back and review it. The leaks anout Ellsberg were one thing. The leaks from his own "people" within the Pentagon, the CIA, and the FBI are what caused the formation of the plumbers.
One nice thing about history that actually happened is that people can find sources for it in about, oh, 30 seconds. Google, ya know? You have no sources for this amazing BS theory of yours regarding Watergate because, well...it's WRONG.

To the poster above, yeah, that was a bit ad hominem. But WM has been trying to sell the conservative equivalent of the Brooklyn Bridge for a while, and I've asked him for proof so many times I've simply had to give up on the notion that anything he says has support. If Debka turned out to be his support, that made it pretty clear to me that skepticism was in order, to say the least.

Posts: 1600 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan Allen
Member
Member # 238

 - posted      Profile for Dan Allen         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From a google search on pbs watergate :
quote:
In 1971, the New York Times published the Pentagon Papers, which revealed that the previous Democratic administration had lied to the American people about why and how they were conducting the Vietnam War. Although the documents were an indictment of Democratic presidents Kennedy and Johnson, Nixon was persuaded that he would be politically vulnerable if these kinds of government leaks were tolerated. Still shocking after 30 years, Oval Office tape recordings reveal Nixon conspiring with Henry Kissinger and H.R. Haldeman to get the Brookings Institution’s safe “cleaned out” to prevent any future leaks. “And have it cleaned out in a way that makes somebody else responsible,” Nixon says.

With the 1972 campaign gearing up, the covert operations that were spurred by the publication of the Pentagon Papers intensified into a strategy of political spying and sabotage against key Democrats and members of the press. Jeb Stuart Magruder, then deputy campaign director at the Committee to Re-elect the President, observes that these tactics weren’t even necessary. The public approval Nixon enjoyed at the time suggested a comfortable re-election victory, but the illegal intelligence gathering was driven by Nixon’s obsession for more information. Magruder recalls, “Nixon always wanted more information, he wanted to get his enemies, opponents … he just felt that was the way to keep himself on top and everyone else on the bottom.”


Posts: 1015 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jedilaw
Member
Member # 1020

 - posted      Profile for jedilaw   Email jedilaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, Dan, thanks for that. Notice how it supports the notion of the Plumbers forming in response to the Pentagon Papers, but not the notion that it was some hunt for treasonous Democrats (which has been WM's line on this). It also supports my basic thesis that Watergate was all about Nixon's paranoia and need to utterly destroy his preceived foes.

Thanks for the link.

Posts: 1600 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan Allen
Member
Member # 238

 - posted      Profile for Dan Allen         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jedi:
quote:
Well, Dan, thanks for that. Notice how it supports the notion of the Plumbers forming in response to the Pentagon Papers, but not the notion that it was some hunt for treasonous Democrats (which has been WM's line on this). It also supports my basic thesis that Watergate was all about Nixon's paranoia and need to utterly destroy his preceived foes.
Except that it wasn’t Wm’s “line” that the plumbers were formed for “some hunt for treasonous Democrats”; that’s your take on it – at least what I recall from the earlier thread.
Like this quote of yours:
quote:
The early genesis of what became Liddy's Watergate crew was a group that was digging up info to discredit Daniel Elsberg, the man who released the Pentagon Papers. They broke into his shrink's office to look for dirt. As the election got closer, the Committee to Re-Elect the President essentially set up a counter-intelligence operation against the DNC. It had nothing to do with suspected Democratic leaks. It had to do with wanting to get weapons against the Democrats.
The point is, Nixon’s paranoia aside, the ‘plumbers’ were initially formed in response to a security leak. You’re right about what Nixon did with them later, but the thing started with the Pentagon Papers – which initially had nothing to do with the Democrats (except pointing out that the previous Democratic administrations had lied.)

Wm:
quote:
(From the earlier thread.) Go study your history and you'll see that the whole mess started because of actual leaks within the intelligence community. Nixon set up the plumbers to find out who in his own intelligence community was committing treason. The start of this had nothing to do with Democrats or McGovern.
quote:
One nice thing about history is that it happened and you can sometimes go back and review it. The leaks anout Ellsberg were one thing. The leaks from his own "people" within the Pentagon, the CIA, and the FBI are what caused the formation of the plumbers.
You're welcome [Smile]
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jedilaw
Member
Member # 1020

 - posted      Profile for jedilaw   Email jedilaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good points. I have to do a little more reading to reconcile my opinion on this one. I did, however, misunderstand WM: I thought he was blaming Dems for Watergate. Some other posters also thought so, IIRC.

[ January 10, 2004, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: jedilaw ]

Posts: 1600 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WmLambert
Member
Member # 604

 - posted      Profile for WmLambert   Email WmLambert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What Jedi doesn't understand, I guess, is that Nixon was hated by many of his own intelligence community. The reason goes back to 1958 and Nixon's role as VP to Eisenhower and his later decision to fire Frank Wisner, who blew the government's chances of plausible deniabilty in the Suharto and Sukarno episode in Indonesia.

I haven't said that Nixon was right or wrong in his paranoia - but the reason for the Plumbers were to provide an out-of-the-box investigative tool that he could absolutely trust. When Ellsberg copied the 47-volume Pentagon Papers file that Leslie Gelb assembled at McNamara's behest that covered all of the US clandestine interventions in Indochina since WWII, it was just one aspect of Nixon's loss of control of both the CIA and the Pentagon.

When Dan Allen posted:
quote:
...Although the documents were an indictment of Democratic presidents Kennedy and Johnson, Nixon was persuaded that he would be politically vulnerable if these kinds of government leaks were tolerated. Still shocking after 30 years, Oval Office tape recordings reveal Nixon conspiring with Henry Kissinger and H.R. Haldeman to get the Brookings Institution’s safe “cleaned out” to prevent any future leaks. “And have it cleaned out in a way that makes somebody else responsible,” Nixon says.
He was quite right. The point is the plumbers were started because of a related lack of faith in his own intel community that later spilled over into the Democrats Watergate suite.

Egil "Bud" Krogh led the "plumbers" so-named because it was their job to plug the security leaks that had developed. Bill Straub from Scripps Howard News Service wrote: "Before Watergate there were the plumbers, called that because their task was to plug security leaks in any way possible. Analysts maintain that Nixon may have approved the Watergate cover-up to keep investigators from looking too closely into the break-in at Fielding's office. Watergate would never have occurred, Krogh said, were it not for the earlier covert operations he led...It was Krogh who approved the break-in at the Beverly Hills, Calif., office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist, Dr. Lewis Fielding, using national security to rationalize the White House-sanctioned crime. They were looking for anything they could use against Ellsberg because he had leaked information on the Vietnam War, infuriating the White House."

From The Crime Library:
quote:
Richard Powers explains how leaks and demonstrations threatened Nixon's ability to govern the country:  "Having to wage a massive, undeclared war in Asia, while simultaneously trying to negotiate with the North Vietnamese, made both Johnson and Nixon depend on secrecy to mask their moves.   They had to keep the enemy from knowing about their negotiating positions and to keep the antiwar opposition from mobilizing to frustrate their war strategy."

Nixon counted on Hoover to control these leaks and demonstrations that were undermining his presidency.  Hoover convinced him that in addition to physical surveillance and background checks, wiretapping and electronic surveillance were the best ways to solve the problem.  Nixon arranged for Henry Kissinger to provide Hoover the names of those individuals suspected of leaking critical information. 

As the leaks continued, the list of names grew longer and Hoover was becoming nervous that the wiretapping and electronic surveillance would be discovered.   Finally, when Nixon wanted to wiretap columnist Joseph Kraft, Hoover refused.    From his viewpoint, these wiretaps were reckless and very dangerous if the American public ever got wind of them.

The problem of the leaks continued and Hoover was continuously pressured to increase surveillance, which he resisted.  By 1970, relations between the White House and Hoover were very strained.  The country was in terrible turmoil on many fronts.  New Left groups had become militant with bombings and takeovers of college campuses.  When Nixon authorized American troops in Cambodia, the college campuses around the country exploded.  A few days later, National Guardsmen wounded nine students and killed four others at Kent State University in Ohio.

While Hoover was in sympathy with Nixon on controlling the student activists and black nationalists, he was not about to jeopardize his own position by involving the Bureau in any widespread intelligence gathering programs, except for ones that he closely supervised, such as his COINTELPROs.

Nixon was not pleased and on June 5, 1970, called the heads of all of the intelligence agencies to the White House to chew them out for being disorganized and ineffective in providing intelligence on the antiwar movement.  A committee was formed and Hoover was the chairman.  However, the plan that was drawn up by the other committee members proposed widespread surveillance methods aimed at all anti-war groups.   Hoover insisted that someone higher up than himself approve this highly controversial and reckless program.  Nixon would not do it, so the program died.

On March 8, 1971, an event occurred which allowed the American public to get a peek at what the FBI had been up to with its secret programs.  A small FBI office in Media, PA, was burglarized by a group that called itself the "Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI."  Hundreds of documents were taken.   Most were like time bombs for the Bureau's image.

The stolen documents told the story of widespread surveillance and wiretapping of the Black Panthers, the SDS and other New Left organizations, the Jewish Defense League, and the Ku Klux Klan.  Copies were sent to Senator George McGovern and Congressman Parren Mitchell of Maryland, but both men turned the documents over to the FBI.  Finally, excerpts of the documents were published in a leftist journal.

The public now knew that the FBI was guilty of extensive invasion of privacy.  A top FBI executive saw the burglary as a "watershed event that changed the FBI's image, possibly forever, in the minds of many Americans."

Carl Stern, a newsman for NBC, noticed the word "COINTELPRO" on the top of one of the stolen documents and decided to find out what it meant.  It took him two years to find out and by that time Hoover was dead.

The FBI was under siege.  Earlier in 1971, there had been a series of negative articles and revelations about the Bureau, its large expenditures on bullet-proof limousines, its poor record on minority hiring, the capricious firing of an agent whose wife was dying, sagging morale.  Hoover was no longer untouchable.  He was becoming a target.

In April, Hoover had to fend off a full-scale investigation of Bureau practices.  Senator Edward Kennedy was calling for Hoover's resignation.   Senator Sam Ervin, chairman of the Senate Committee on Constitutional Rights was given the opportunity to investigate the FBI, but he declined saying, "I think [Hoover] has done a very good job in a difficult post."

That same month, Hoover dismantled the COINTELPROs.  The risk of exposure was just too great to continue them.  While this did not mean that all domestic intelligence programs were ended, only a few selected operations would be allowed in highly controlled situations. 

In June of 1971, documents called the "Pentagon Papers" were leaked to the New York Times.  The "Pentagon Papers" was a history of U.S. decision making processes on Vietnam policy during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations.  Mitchell ordered Hoover to find out who leaked this top-secret document.  It came out quickly that Daniel Ellsberg, a former Defense Department employee, had leaked the information, but it was not known if he did this on his own or with accomplices.

Hoover gave it a low priority.  When Nixon found out, he was furious because he saw Ellsberg's action as part of a large conspiracy to undermine his policies.   Ellsberg's wealthy father-in-law was a friend of Hoover's and Hoover refused to interrogate him. This was the last straw for Nixon:  "I wanted someone to light a fire under the FBI investigation of Ellsberg...If a conspiracy existed, I wanted to know, and I wanted the full resources of the government brought to bear to find out.  If the FBI was not going to pursue the case, then we would have to do it ourselves."

History, as I recall it happening at the time, jedilaw, was pivoting on a near-collapse of Nixon's intelligence community during a period of hot-war in Vietnam, where every leaked kernal of information seemed to result in deaths of American troops. While he was trying to negotiate secretly with the French, Cambodians, and Vietnamese - each attempt to reason with the other parties were torn apart by some new bit of news gossip muddying the waters. You do know that the reason McGovern's headquarters at the Watergate was targeted was because McGovern was the recipient of so much of the classified intel. One of the reasons his office was targeted was to find out if he had other copies from Ellsberg or Hoover he had not turned over yet to use against Nixon during the campaign.

This episode is very similar to the Humphrey Bogart movie, The Caine Mutiny, in that the captain WAS neurotic and paranoid - yet at the end, it wasn't Bogart that José Ferrer pilloried, it was Fred MacMurray who was the psychoanalytical bad guy for urging Van Johnson to see the Captain as a villain rather than give him the honest support he needed. Same with Nixon. I doubt that he wasn't paranoid, yet he couldn't depend on any of his intelligence agencies to give him the support he needed either. He had Magruder and Krogh form the plumbers out of simple necessity, and let them veer out of control and sever the tow line.

[ January 11, 2004, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: WmLambert ]

Posts: 1372 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jedilaw
Member
Member # 1020

 - posted      Profile for jedilaw   Email jedilaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wm and Dan Allen, you've given me some good stuff to mull over. It appears that my earlier readings on Watergate didn't go far enough back before the actual break-in. Good to know you weren't just trying to say that the break-in was the fault of the liberals/Democrats.

-WJ

Posts: 1600 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1