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Author Topic: Arafat is dead.
pseudoCode
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It's not going to be a slow news day today. Personally, I think the fact that he was being treated in a French military hospital says a lot.

The glowing profile of Arafat ABC news led with on Nightline last night made me ill. This is the man who pioneered airline hijackings. At least they aired a second piece after the first. But the led with angle that Arafat was a nobel peace prize award winner and was embraced by Europe.

Did anyone else catch that piece?

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Badvok
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quote:
Originally posted by pseudoCode:
It's not going to be a slow news day today. Personally, I think the fact that he was being treated in a French military hospital says a lot.

Yes, that at least some non-bigots in the world realise that his only aim in his later days was to establish a peaceful two-state compromise to release his beloved people from the tyranical oppression of American backed Israel. Also that Palestine is so impoverished by this oppression that it did not have the medical facilities to care for its leader.
He was frequently let down by extreemist groups who acted on their own in despicable ways.
You can no more hold him responsible for the action of every individual palestinian than you hold GWB responsible for the actions of every individual american.
Please remember him for what he was trying to do rather than what a bunch of fanatics who happen to call themselves Palestinians have done.

[ November 11, 2004, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Badvok ]

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lessismore
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As a leader Arafat was a failure.
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Hannibal
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badvok do you really believe at what you say?

arafat never wanted a two state solution he wanted a one state solution in a disguise of a two state one.

arafat said to the israelis, "ok we (the palestinians) will settle for the 1967 borders, we will allow you (the israelis) to have the territories of 1949, but you must agree to the right of return"

and what is the right of return badvok? it means that 3 million arabs will return to ISRAEL not palestine but israel, so in this situation palestine will be a state of 4.5 million palestinians and in israel there will be 5 million jews and 4 million palestinians, and then israel whould be destoryed.

why should the refugees return to a place that is not their country? if there is gonna be a palestinian state why should they return to israel? because arafat wanted to demographically destroy israel. and that is why there is no peace and why he started the intifada in the year 2000.

he was as lessismore says, a failure as a leader.

(lets not even start talking about all the money he stole from the palestinian people)

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Sweet William
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The glowing profile of Arafat ABC news led with on Nightline last night made me ill.

I know. You should have seen the one on MSNBC. There was a line about how Arafat got most of what he wanted in the most recent Camp David negotiations, but "didn't want to give up on his dream."

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, wasn't his "dream" a Palestinian state? He couldn't compromise, so he lost it. Sad way to lose a "dream" really.

But the led with angle that Arafat was a nobel peace prize award winner....

Which points out how ridiculous that "prize" frequently is.

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ben5
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The major news networks alwayse give somone a glowing profile when they die,even terrorists.
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nyani
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I thought Arafat was the head of the PLO. They didn't even pretend to be peaceful, did they? So if what they did reflects badly on him, frankly, he deserves it.
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Ben
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Hmmm... If it's the nature of news to do such "nice" bios of deceased people, makes me wonder what they'd dig up to make OBL look good?

While Arafat may have shifted from commiting or being involved with major terrorist actions himself, he has not done anything against it since aside from meaningless words. I doubt he really had any objectives other than getting power and keeping it, as well as attempting to destroy Israel.

And what's with people calling the Palestines his people? Wasn't he Egyptian or something?

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Ben
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Oh, just found out while he was born in Egypt to part-Egyptian dad, his mother was Palestine and he lived in pre-Israel Palestine as a kid. My bad.
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Richard Dey
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We have recently learnt that Israel as foreward bastion of 'democracy' or as a military base for Mideastern operations was never viable and that indeed our intent of late has been to restrain Israel from partaking in the wars in the Mideast. Costing the taxpayers billions every year, Israel has proved itself militarily useless. Indeed, Israel is a military liability.

I will stand alone on this one too; but I have always found it an irony that Israel would do to the Palestinians what the Germans did to the Jews -- driven off their lands, they have been herded into Konzentrationslager, their estates confiscated, their lives threatened, and treated as a slave-labor class. They have been given inferior goods, inferior schools, and inferior defense, all with malicious intent. Gaza is remarkably analogous to the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Palestinians are to the Israelis of today what the ancient Sodomites were to the Jews: invaded, accused of inhospitality, and treated like sodomites.

The Balfour Declaratio may have been a high-minded nonsensical threat, but to those who suggest for a moment that Arafat was a terrorist, let me say one bloody thing: The King David Hotel.

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Everard
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You mean the incident where Begin called the hotel, told them when their hotel would blow up, and then was promptly ignored by the hotel, resulting in casualties? I've never heard of Arafat warning his targets that they are about to be blown up...

Note, also, that the King David Hotel was the residence of the British Military presence in Israel, therefore, a highly legitimate military target.

I love comparisons that ignore relevant details.

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Plo Koon
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:

Note, also, that the King David Hotel was the residence of the British Military presence in Israel, therefore, a highly legitimate military target.

I love comparisons that ignore relevant details.

Okay so why is that a legitimate military target? I was unaware when war was declared on Palestine by the British.
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Badvok
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
badvok do you really believe at what you say?

Yes. I'm not saying he was a great man but neither was he the satanic terrorist many make him out to be. He had put his past behind him and was working towards a peaceful solution.
quote:

arafat never wanted a two state solution.

Duh, well that's obvious, that's why its a compromise solution.
quote:

arafat said to the israelis, "ok we (the palestinians) will settle for the 1967 borders, we will allow you (the israelis) to have the territories of 1949, but you must agree to the right of return"

and what is the right of return badvok?

The right of return is to allow people to return to the homes they were evicted from. Just like the Jews who were evicted from their homes were allowed to return to their homes after WWII.
quote:

(lets not even start talking about all the money he stole from the palestinian people)

That is an as yet un-proven allegation made by his enemies, I'll reserve judgment on that one for now.
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Hannibal
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come on it was in 1947, should i bring up examples of what the palestinians were doing at the time?

or any other country in the world? at those times things were alot different then today's.

Richard are you argueing for the sake of argument? or is this really your opinion?

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Badvok
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quote:
Originally posted by nyani:
I thought Arafat was the head of the PLO. They didn't even pretend to be peaceful, did they? So if what they did reflects badly on him, frankly, he deserves it.

I think your use of the past tense here sums it up perfectly. People do change sometimes you know.
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Hannibal
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what about all the proofs of him signing papers regarding terrirst organizations funding?

badvok if he such a good man and a changed man, then why didnt he agree to Ehud Barak's offer in 1999?

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Everard
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Plo Koon-
In 1947, when the Irgun blew up the king david hotel, the Irgun was trying to get the British Military out of the middle east.

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rare_dragon
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Is Arafat to blame for his people refusing his leadership such as it was in the circumstances, or is it his people for lacking the leadership to be better leaders than Arafat was - to take more responsibility for their country? For all the tears and moans and gunfire to mark his passing, it would have been better if the Palestinians as a people did more to achieve a peaceful and prosperous state instead of one that is belittled as a terrorist state.

[ November 12, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: rare_dragon ]

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Everard
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The people never refused his leadership. Thats a large part of the problem. He led them into the situation they are currently in.
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JeSuisse
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Funny. I never realized it was Arafat who led the Palestinians into the refugee camps.

Do you think it was the prospect of life in luxury apartments in nice neighborhoods close to prospering business districts that convinced them to move out of their villages and into Jenin, Rafah, etc? Arafat must have been quite a good talker then.

Or maybe it had something to do with a hostile army marching around in the vincinity?

:blinks a few times, thinking hard:

Naaaah.

[ November 12, 2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: JeSuisse ]

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Hannibal
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Jesuisse are you playing stupid on purpuse?

no arafat ows the paelstinians so much, all the money he got from the united states, united nations and the european union for the palestinian people he took for himself, he has billions of dollars hidden in straw men accounts in banks over the world, if only he used that money to help his people, to build infrastructure to build schools hospitals roads.

what does he do with all that money? i know... he pays terrorists who blow up in israel!

havent you forgot, or maybe you didnt know to begin with that untill recent years arafat was practicing terrorism on the first person basis? he is de facto the biggest jew killer since the nazis.
why are there hostile armies in jenin? eh.... lets see, in the begining of the intifada only a day after a closure was removed from one of those cities you named a suicide bomber attack came from there, so with all due respect to the palesitinians, if a closure is the way to stop those attacks a closure it will be. because not so long ago in 1999 the palestinians were offered continous borders, 97% of the territories with compensation for the last 3%, and an east jerusalem as a capital of palestine. but noooooooooooo arafat refused. because he was a terrorist and he remained a terrorist to his death.

blink a few times more and think a little harder or maybe you simply cant think. but that is your problem. i cant do any thing to help you with that.

[ November 12, 2004, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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Jesse
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Arafat didn't have the guts to take one for the team.

Well, when George Washingtons don't grow on trees, why should we expect Micheal Collins's too either [Smile]

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Plo Koon
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
Plo Koon-
In 1947, when the Irgun blew up the king david hotel, the Irgun was trying to get the British Military out of the middle east.

Pointing out their intentions does not legitimise a target. I have a problem with terms like "Legitimate target", "Collateral Damage" and "Friendly Fire". Bottom line is we are talking about human life lost.
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Everard
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Yeah, and if the people in the king david hotel had paid attention when the irgun told them it would be bombed, there WOULD have been no loss of life.

Yes, the irgun was a terrorist organization. But comparing them to the palestinian terrorists is a mistake. The king david hotel was a military target, in the same way that the pentagon is a military target. There might be people there who don't have anything to do with fighting the war, but it headquarters all the relevant people you're trying to hit, from a military perspective.

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Jesse
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I'm sure we killed an innocent housekeeper or two in bombing Saddams palaces. Doesn't mean they weren't valid military targets.

The bombing of the King David hotel is far from the worst/best example of Igrun atrocities.

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Hannibal
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there are many differents bitween the pre-israel "terrorist" organizations and the palestinian terrorists organization. but one MAJOR difference is the fact that when the country was founded all the organizations either disbanded or merged toghather to become the IDF under one leadership. there is a famous case of the ship "Altalena" wich was bringing tons of weapons and ammo to the "Etzel" and they refused to give it to the IDF, so the PM Ben Gurion ordered the ship destroyed with all its equipment allthough the IDF was in a dire straits. because there was going to be ONE army in israel and not gangs.

and this my friends, will never happen with the palestinians. do you think that the Hamas will lay down its arms? or the islamic jihad?

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Plo Koon
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
I'm sure we killed an innocent housekeeper or two in bombing Saddams palaces. Doesn't mean they weren't valid military targets.

Do you actually beleive that the murder of innocent people justifies the political, economic and/or military gains?

I would go so far as to say that it is exactly that attitude that is detrimental to living in a peacful society.

What gives us the right to dictate who live and who dies?

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Kit
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No, murder never justifies gains.

But innocent and unintended deaths are often a price paid in the pursuit of a worthy goal. Bad side effects do not mean the cure was not worth it.

If we were going around deciding everybody that lived and died, then nothing gives us the right. But unintended consequenses of our actions are not the same as dictating who lives and dies. I guaruntee that if we could dictate who lives and dies then Saddam, OBL, and many others would be long dead and innocent housekeepers would be safe from us forever.

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Plo Koon
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How is it not murder?

The military knows that there are civilians there when they do their ariel bombardments. On built up areas no less. They may not know who or how many civilians they are killing, but they know that civilians are being killed. Surely your argument is merely "spin" to advocate that the ends really do justify the means.

Also if we have the right to decide then do we not become the very thing that we are supposedly combating. This is a war on terror. If an invading army were bombing my house, killing my children, taking friends and family prisoner and torturing them. I'd be terrified!

What do people who are scared do? They get angry and the cycle continues. The war on terror is an absolute sham. The US would like the world to believe it is standing up to terrorism and liberating the Iraqi people from an oppressive and brutal regime.

However this is hardly the reason the US went to war. "Weapons of Mass Destruction" That was the battle cry at the onset of this war. When none were found it was all a case of -"Well we got rid of a brutal dictator."

If that is the case, then why are their so many of these brutal dictators in the world. Allowed by the inaction of the US. To continue their barbaric and oppresive regimes at the expense of the suffering of the innocent people they rule over? Is it because they do not deserve a regime change? Or the more likely reason that a war to liberate them is not economically viable?

Now I'm sure you could list off a million horrific things that Saddam and these terrorists have done, but that doesn't change what we are doing. So my point is this. Must we become the enemy to overcome the enemy?

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DeHaan
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Plo Koon(great name by the way, Star Wars fan obviously), I think it would serve you well to go back and read many of the threads we have already done. This topic you bring up has been discussed and argued 6 feet into the ground already.

Back to the subject at hand. Personally I'm glad Arafat is now gone. I'm sure he wasn't 100% evil, I don't believe anyone is. Even Hitler started out life has a humble, yet rather unsuccesful, artist. But no one claims he was a good person because he had good intentions for his own people. I think history will portray Arafat as the rather scum of a man that he became through his actions.

It is unfortunate that anyone should become such a person in the first place, but then to be praised by his enemies as a great person is rather dispicable. I, for one, have nothing wrong with a person being given credit and thanked for the good which they have done, as we have all done at least some good. But in turn one should also be credited for the evil(once again, this is my word for "bad") things which they have done as well, and I am a little ashamed by our media's lack in doing so with Arafat, the sworn enemy of one of our greatest(in my view, our single greatest) allies, Israel.

But then again, I've grown to completely distrust the media, specifically the NEWS media. I mean, even the weather man isn't always right.

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Hannibal
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Plo koon

"must we become the enemy to overcome the enemy"

even the United Federation of Planets the greates Utopia of all times has a secret police force that does "despecible" actions. every one needs somthing of that sort. you cant win fights being fair. one of the most important tactics in war is not being fair.

i am frustrated that JeSuisse isnt coming back to answer my post concering him.

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JeSuisse
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Hannibal, I was answering the immediately preceding post by Everard and the only thing I said was that blaming Arafat for the situation the Palestinians find themselves in today is leaving a ton of more important causes untold. I did nothing to glorify Arafat and I don't see why you lectured me on his evils.

I did not answer your post because I don't see what good it would do, if you read mine and come to the conclusion that I can't think. If you already know you're right and I'm stupid, what's the point in answering you?

But if you are interested in a real discussion, tell me and I'm in.

[ November 16, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: JeSuisse ]

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carmachu
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quote:
that at least some non-bigots in the world realise that his only aim in his later days was to establish a peaceful two-state compromise to release his beloved people from the tyranical oppression of American backed Israel
I cant believe you actually posted that with a straight face. Talk about revisionist BS.


As for being poor, maybe if Arafat and the PLO were stealing millions to line their own pockets, there might have been a hospital around there to take him in.

carmachu

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xzywx
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i also cant believe
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