Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » World Watch » Muslim Kills Americans (in America) (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Muslim Kills Americans (in America)
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Recent underground news reports (I wouldn't look at CNN/MSNBC/Major Networks) indicate that a Muslim of Bosnian extraction recently murdered (at random?) five innocent people at or near Salt Lake City, Utah last night--12FEB07.

This follows murder sprees by Muslims in Seattle ( at a Jewish women's center) and North Carolina where gun- and car-wielding Muslims went about killing innocent American citizens.

Is it something (?) about Muslims that makes them prone to random violence or something about our media that makes them unwilling to report these attacks?

Is this just something that happens randomly, or is there something about Muslim culture that makes its adherents incompatible with 21st Century Western culture?

I have an answer that works for me. I'm looking for Muslim apologists. 'Nuff said.

[ February 13, 2007, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Big C ]

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Umm, you have looked at the number of NON-muslim murder sprees in the US, right?
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Have you looked at the commonality between other murder sprees in the US?

I sure hope you're not one of those who said the FBI was asleep for 9/11.

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Is it something (?) about Muslims that makes them prone to random violence or something about our media that makes them unwilling to report these attacks? "

Um, I don't know what youre talking about. Before I went to bed last night, CNN"s headline breaking news thing covered this.

It doesn't say they were muslim though, where did you hear that?

Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Funean
Member
Member # 2345

 - posted      Profile for Funean   Email Funean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually, I've noticed something even more alarming. They're all...men.

They're obviously just prone to random violence, and simply incompatible with civilized society and it's a media plot to keep the obvious under wraps. Hey, the media is dominated by men, too!

Darn male apologists.

[Roll Eyes]

Posts: 5277 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Funean,

It's just because somebody had the sense to keep the guns out of reach of women. Plus the child safety caps. Didn't you see the episode of 24 last night? Guy gave his girlfriend a gun? Bam! She shot him.

Empirical evidence if there ever was any.

Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DaveS
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe it's also accurate to say that 89% or more the shooters were right-handed. Funean, I assume you're a sometime mall shopper. I happen to be a new age sensitive guy (prone to inconvenient random hot flashes of empathy), but if I see you coming out of Sears reaching for your pocket with your right hand, I may have to, em, neutralize you. I'll feel bad about it later on, of course, but randomly.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
♥♥
Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PanHeraclitean
Member
Member # 3120

 - posted      Profile for PanHeraclitean   Email PanHeraclitean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There something about Muslim culture that makes some of its adherents incompatible with 21st Century Western culture. But culture and religion should not be viewed as synonymous IMO.
Posts: 1259 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rallan
Member
Member # 1936

 - posted      Profile for Rallan   Email Rallan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Big C:

Is it something (?) about Muslims that makes them prone to random violence or something about our media that makes them unwilling to report these attacks?

Is this just something that happens randomly, or is there something about Muslim culture that makes its adherents incompatible with 21st Century Western culture?

I'm sorry BigC, but are you trying to flog a tragedy for political gain by taking a horrific event perpetrated by a muslim and implying that this is somehow a problem caused by islam?

Because y'know, I must've missed the bit where so many of America's crazed gunmen were muslims that "islam" and "suburban shooting spree" had become synonymous.

But hey you've got this event and one or two others you can remember in the news. Let's not let annoying things like demographics and facts get in the way of a completely out-of-left-field attack on islam [Smile]

Posts: 2570 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"There something about Muslim culture that makes some of its adherents incompatible with 21st Century Western culture. But culture and religion should not be viewed as synonymous IMO."

In the West in the 21st century--you may be right--at least Western culture is becoming non-religious. In the Islamic world, which apparently runs on a different timeline, I believe culture and religion to be one and the same.

Happy Valentine's Day!!

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, 'cept that Whabist Saudi Hardliner has essentially nothing in common with a Moderate Indonesian culturaly...cept the fact that they both pray towards Mecca.

There is no muslim culture.

Since there are over 3 million muslims in the US, shouldn't they account for 1% of "shooting sprees"?

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
abm3
Member
Member # 2139

 - posted      Profile for abm3   Email abm3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I live in Salt Lake City two blocks away from Trolley Square where this happened. I personally saw the first responders and civilians in the street, with my husband our 2 pre-school age sons. I have a personal friend who witnessed some of the shooting and was likely the last person to see some of the victims alive. I have an in-law who was on the scene as a police officer (I'm sure my LDS bishop, who is a detective, was there too). My sister used to work with the Ogden police officer who first engaged the murderer. My friend at work's son is best friends with the son of one of the persons killed and his other son who was seriously wounded. Finally, one of my high school classmates was shot and wounded in the incident. So I feel I have some say in this thread.

The shooter/murderer may have been Muslim. He was a Bosnian refugee who came to America to flee the war in his home country in his early teens. G-d only knows why he did what he did. I very much doubt his reported faith had anything to do with his decision to murder people in cold blood. To suggest so is harmful to all faithful Muslims who have never committed a violent act in their lives. We have a Islamic Community Center between my home and Trolley Square and many Islamic neighbors. None of them have acted violently towards the larger community. This horrifying tragedy occurred in a neighborhood that endured the shocking murder of a young child last summer. Please do not mock the pain of the victims and our community by using this tragedy as a means to make a cheap (and deeply un-critical) political statement.

Posts: 20 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
moodi
Member
Member # 3020

 - posted      Profile for moodi   Email moodi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Big C,

What do you have against Islam? It's one thing to criticize something that you deem wrong, but another to take, twist, and spin it so personally.

Many of the ornery readers\writers have 180-degree off opinions with Islam and with most Muslims yet it seems that you are the only one who is willing to bring out the nonsense.

Do you have some kind of phobia towards certain people?

If yes, I suggest you see a therapist.
If no, you might wanna see two of them.

Posts: 134 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To amb3 and moodi:

I'll give you both a serious answer. One of you deserves it (in my opinion)the other does not. But after all , it's Valentine's Day and even psychos like me are allowed to feel charitable.

First, personal bona fides: This being the Internet and despite there being no way to check, I'll tell you that personally, I've had only positive experiences with Muslims. The first Muslims I met were ethnic Indians (as in sub-continent) who were expelled from Uganda. I spent almost 30 years in the Washington, DC area--and with a wife in the healthcare field, I met Muslims from all social strata and from countries ranging from the Philippines to Morocco. My best friend is at least half-Muslim. His mother is American, but he considers himself Palestinian as his father fits this category. His father was a personal friend of Yasir Arafat and my friend spent part of his youth on the West Bank--throwing rocks at Israeli jeeps. I have yet to meet a Muslim whm I consider to be morally inferior to me.

Second: I've spent the last 30 years of my life evaluating threats to the US--my country. On the Friday before 9/11 (i.e. 9/7) I learned that bin Laden alerted his family to go into hiding. These messages had been passed before, and after all, on 7 September 2001, they really didn't mean too much. I know it sounds corny, but I still love my country. I can't imagine wanting to live anywhere else. And I don't want my kids and grandkids to have to face my country's demise.

3. By most standards, I guess it's fair to consider me paranoid. Nevertheless, I am aware that millions in the Muslim world see my country as "the great Satan" and the source of all their problems. I watched as these people rejoiced on 9/11 as thousands of my countrymen were murdered--by Muslims.

4. Many in the news media, and wives of 9/11 victims, were horrified that their government, especially the law enforcement and intelligence segments, were unable to detect the conspiracy that led to so many American deaths.

5. Yet every month or so, I learn of Muslims who live in my country "acting out." One month, it's a Muslim who drives his car into a crowd of college students shouting "Allahu Akbar." Another month it's a Muslim shooting women at a Jewish center. Another month, I learn of the arrest of Muslims from Dearborn, Michigan who have purchased hundreds of cell phones--a well-known detonator for IEDs/remote-control bombs. The other day, it's a Muslim who kills innocents in Salt Lake City, for God's sake!

6. The "media" never reports the "Muslim connection" to these crimes. Would that the media would dissect--for all of America to see--the suspected motivations and pathologies of the perpetrators of these outrages as they did the exploits of those jerks at Columbine High School in Littleton, CO.

7. So, I'll concede that these events may, in fact, be entirely random. And just like I hope we don't go to war with Iran, I hope they are random. But if they're not--and they become part of a trend--that leads to more innocent American deaths at Muslim "hands," be sure to hold America's law enforcement organs responsible. But also remind the media that they too are culpable by ignoring this aspect of the crime, and follow that blame up with a good look in the mirror at those who were too sensitized to diversitry to recognize a genuine threat before it bit them on the ass.

8. And finally, I'm not aware of any political "profit" I can accrue by raising this issue. I certainly hope the survivors of the carnage in Salt Lake City have a quick and successful recovery. I think it might behoove Utah residents to investigate what entity funds the local "Muslim Center." If the funds come from Saudi Arabia, I might be concerned. I brought this issue up because I was troubled by the media's ignoring the Muslim connection to the crime. When Islam is a source of violence the world over, I believe we are ill-served by a media that ignores related developments within the United States, but is only too willing--for example--to report on the failings of religious leaders in the Christian and Jewish communities within the United States.

I truly hope I never have to bring a similar matter to the attention of Ornery.org participants.

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
C

The purchase of hundreds of cell phones only seems suspiscious, well, at least in a terrorist sense, because the men were muslim.

I know a couple of Druze young men here in Los Angeles who are...well...basically hustlers.

They see a great deal on CPUs at Fry's, they go and and out buying them and get friends to buy em in order to get around the "one per customer" and then charge people the list price + 40 bucks to install them in their computers as an up-grade. They find a deal on cheap cassio watches, they buy a few hundred and sell them to gas station and liqour store owners at a small mark up.

I'm not sure they pay all their taxes...and I've never asked. [Wink]

I'm not saying a truckload of cell phones isn't worth checking out...just that there are more likely explinations than evil intent.

What we look for, we find. The fact that the Anarchist movement of the late 19th early 20th century was mostly Athiest didn't mean that Atheists were the threat. Oh, and trust me, if there were Jetliners back then those suckers would have flown them into buildings.

Muslims all over the world also held candlelight vigils, donated blood, and bombarded our consulates with handwritten letters of condolence, and collected money for the victims of 9/11. Our news showed file footage of Pakistanis burning a US flag which was dated from 1991, and did not include a disclaimer for a week.

Some Palestinians danced. 1 million Palestinian school children observed five minutes of silence.

Half a million Bangledeshis marched in an expression of sympathy.

This is the US state departments graph of terrorist acts by region from 95-2000


Graph

I think the older numbers are relevant, since we don't have to pick nits over what is terrorism and what is resistance to US occupation in Afgahnistan and Iraq.


Latin America is the leader, far and away, and much of Europes numbers are the result of ETA and IRA action. I don't think Catholocism is religion of hate and violence.

Ask your muslim friends what the crime of "Hirabah" is. Ask them what the punishment is [Wink]

It's very unfortunate that the Western understanding of Islam has been so fundementally shaped by the relatively recent extremist theology of Wahib.

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Viking_Longship
Member
Member # 3358

 - posted      Profile for Viking_Longship   Email Viking_Longship       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is there something in Islamic culture which makes it impossible for its adherents incompatible with 21st century western culture? From my perspective I would say, yes if they are serious about their faith.

This is not because Islam is somehow inherently flawed but because 21st Century western culture has a different set of values than Islam and is serious about maintaining them. Guess what? 21st century culture is also incompatible with Christianity and Judaism.

How much of 21st century entertainment revolves around easy sex? While we may talk about family values, that essentially revolves around the nuclear family, not the extended family as in the Bible and the Koran. 21st century western culture is generally tolerant as long as you stay out of other people's business. Both the Bible and the Koran mandate a tightly regulated moral code on a societal level.

Living in the Bible belt I can assure you that, while America itself embraced (to the point of idolatry in my opinion) the evils of popular culture is common theme in sermons. Once when I was in college a man came to preach about the evils of our institution for tolerating homosexuals and having a women's study department. This at a college that required a temperance and chastity vow of its students.

As far as religous fervor is concerned here in Appalachia there are still plenty of churches where people "take up serpents" and drink poison to show their faith in the Lord. While the women don't wear chador, they don't cut their hair, some of them keep their heads covered, and won't wear pants, only skirts or dresses.

Is that the same as suicide bombers? No, but to my knowledge no one is asking them to. The Branch Davidians weren't that far removed from the Seventh Day Adventist movement they sprung from, and they were quite willing kill and die when the time came.

The difference you might point out is that Christians aren't violent. I agree with that distinction to a point. (The talk about "religion of peace" about Islam can't really be taken seriously until a Fatwa is called on ALL violent terrorists.) However i would point out that Christians in many places in the world unapologetically are violent. For example in of the West African wars Christian militias are as actively violent as muslims. The some of the toughest militias in the Lebanese civil wars of the 80s were the Christian ones.

But there is one thing that I think westerners aren't taking into account. It's not that we are unwilling to use violence to defend our culture, its that we've gotten accustomed to letting professionals handle it. An American suburbanite will use the threat of violence to defend their well-being and property, it's just that they depend on the police and the military to do the fighting. Many muslims come from cultures where the police and military don't function as general protectors but as the largest and most powerful gangs. So the peace is kept the old fashioned way, by the extended family and social network.

I think the time may come when faithful Muslims may come to see western culture as I and many other Christians do, a society I don't entirely agree, but one that protects my right to disagree with it. It just may take a generation for that to happen.

Posts: 5765 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes Pan, Islamic religion and culture are two totally different things. [Frown]

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
moodi
Member
Member # 3020

 - posted      Profile for moodi   Email moodi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Big C,

Your stereotyping in your initial post might sound true the first time we look at facts, but it's not. Please do the following math:
(# of Muslim-related shootings in USA / # of shootings in USA) compared to (# of Muslims in USA / # of people in the USA).

I might have skipped some other factors, but if the ratios stated above aren't equal (within a scientific margin of error), then you have all the room to talk. What you are suggesting (between the lines of your writings) is very dangerous to the fabric of the United States society as we know it today. You might want to take a moment here and look at facts with a fresh set of eyes and then pass a judgment according to real facts that depend on real numbers.

One last thought embedded in a question and I will end my share of this discussion, "If you take Islam out of Muslims, will anything change?"

Posts: 134 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
abm3
Member
Member # 2139

 - posted      Profile for abm3   Email abm3   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
First, it was our local media that released that the murderer was a Bosnian Muslim. Second, not all Muslims are the same. A Bosnian Muslim is very different from an Iranian Muslim, or an Indonesian Muslim, or a Saudi Muslim, ad infinitum. It isn't that our media didn't see possibility of the "connection" you are talking about - they saw it and recognized it as irrelevant.

Just wanted to quote some things from a local paper, The Deseret News:

"There is no record that Talovic attended any of the mosques in the Salt Lake area, according to both Tarek Nosseir, president of the Islamic Society of Greater Salt Lake and Bobby Darvish, president of the Muslim Forum of Utah. Nosseir noted that many Bosnian Muslims are more secular than religious.
"Having lived under Soviet Union rules for decades, where religious freedom was not an option, a majority of these people" are not practicing Muslims, he added. "What I hear is that he came a couple of times at most, to Eid prayers, but I can't confirm that he came.""
2nd quote:
"Patrick Kiernan, supervisory special agent for the FBI, said his agency also is working with the Salt Lake City police.
Kiernan said that, so far, there is nothing that shows Talovic's Bosnian ancestry and Muslim religion had any bearing on the murders, although he did not rule out the possibility that further investigation might reveal new evidence.
"We have no indication that this is an act of terrorism or an act against the U.S. government," Kiernan said.
Kiernan declined to disclose specifics because of the ongoing investigation but reaffirmed that the FBI has a close working relationship with the Salt Lake police and they are working together on this case."

Here's the links:

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660195692,00.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660195691,00.html

We have a large Bosnian community here in Salt Lake City. Again, my personal gut feeling is that this man's experiences as a young child in Bosnia (his family was forced from their home when he was 5) had more to do with his actions than his faith - which didn't apparently have a big impact on his life.

Finally, no one has investigated "who funds" the Islamic Society near my home because there's no need to - they clearly fund it themselves. It is a multi-ethnic society, many of the members are refugees. They primarily just meet for prayers - its a tiny little center, smaller then nearly every other church in the area. There is a larger mosque on the other side of the city, and, as far as I am aware, they built it themselves. It's in the middle of an office park by the Jordan River. Many Muslims I know feel comfortable in Salt Lake and Utah generally because the predominant cultural religious group (Latter-day Saint/Mormon) has essentially the same moral values as they do. Many in our communitey share a concern about the decadence and degredation of modern western culture, not a hatred of freedom.

Posts: 20 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Also...there is a lot of misunderstanding about the phrase "Allah Akbar".

From what I understand, "God is Great" should be the last words to pass a Muslims lips before death. Whether that is charging into battle or having a heart attack at the age of 90.

It doesn't necessarily mean that even they believe what they are doing right before they die is done in Gods name. Although, sometimes it does.

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yet every month or so, I learn of Muslims who live in my country "acting out."
How often do you learn of Christians who live in your country "acting out?"
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"How often do you learn of Christians who live in your country "acting out?" "

And when "Christians" in America "act out," do they seek out Muslims to murder?

Why didn't this piece of human offal in Salt Lake City murder those in his Bosnian Muslim community as opposed to those outside his ethno-religious group? Of course, perhaps it was their fault for being so different from their murderer--in their own country!

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
abm3:

Lenin, and I'm sure the individual who embodied his sense of sowing terror some 1,300 years earlier (Mohammed?), had a term for those who think like you:

Useful idiot.

You should go to the next gun show in Utah, buy lots of cheap firearms, and donate them to your local "Muslim Center." Don't forget to buy the right caliber of ammunition--don't want to cause any uneccessary jams

Enjoy!

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Your stereotyping in your initial post might sound true the first time we look at facts, but it's not. Please do the following math:
(# of Muslim-related shootings in USA / # of shootings in USA) compared to (# of Muslims in USA / # of people in the USA)."

Moodi:

Look above:

Who do Muslims kill when they go "crazy?"

Who do non-Muslim Americans kill when they go crazy?

I'd sure like to play against "geniuses" like you in "Clue."

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"How much of 21st century entertainment revolves around easy sex? While we may talk about family values, that essentially revolves around the nuclear family, not the extended family as in the Bible and the Koran. 21st century western culture is generally tolerant as long as you stay out of other people's business. Both the Bible and the Koran mandate a tightly regulated moral code on a societal level."

Viking:

This is a very good point.

I am no great advocate of some of Western "culture's?" more abherent manifestations. Nevertheless, if I made a case on Ornery Forums that we and our "Libertene Western Culture" were to blame for Islam's violent response....I would be pilloried for my Puritain values and intolerance.

Conversely, if I indict Muslim "civilization" for its intolerance, I an villified as a racist.

Which am I? Both?

Americans need to decide where they stand. I think I know the answer--for me, but I encourage all of you to try to have it both ways with Muslim true believers.

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why didn't this piece of human offal in Salt Lake City murder those in his Bosnian Muslim community as opposed to those outside his ethno-religious group?
Dude, try swinging a cat in Salt Lake City some time. See how many Bosnian Muslims you happen to hit.

I mean, c'mon, somebody about to embark on a random, murderous rampage isn't going to sit down and go, "I'd shoot up this McDonald's, but it's a little close to Chinatown. Might send the wrong message..."

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tom:

The killer lived in a community of Bosnian Muslims in Salt Lake City--even if it's hard for world-class demographers such as you to believe. He threatened his Bosnian Muslim landlord with a knife when he was 9. He was well-known to juvenile justice personnel in Salt Lake City. He lived in Salt Lake City for nearly 10 years. Local sources indicate there was no doubt that he deliberately went to the "right" mall to kill the local LDS population.

Next time somebody is swinging a cat looking for someone stupid, you better remember to duck, Tom.

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Local sources indicate there was no doubt that he deliberately went to the "right" mall to kill the local LDS population.
Which mall would be a bad place to visit to kill members of the LDS population of Salt Lake City?

Seriously, man, we're talking about someone who, by your own admission, has been traumatized and seriously disturbed most of his life, and has previously threatened members of his own ethnic community. We just had a racist flit through this site who insisted that black men were seeking out white people to kill because a greater percentage of white people were victimized by black men, and we just explained to him why this was a silly misuse of statistics.

[ February 17, 2007, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Which mall would be a bad place to visit to kill members of the LDS population of Salt Lake City?
Ignorant question. Probably any mall that's more than a couple hundred FEET from TEMPLE SQUARE, Tom. Whether on purpose or not, this worthless son of a bitch picked the one mall in SLC where he'd be most likely to murder mormons. And the killing spree ended up in a children's clothing area, neh?

SLC is majority non-LDS and the guy picked the very LDS heart of the city. Very small area, same one that the ACLU was sponsoring that bullhorn pogrom, as you might recall.

[ February 17, 2007, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Probably any mall that's more than a couple hundred FEET from TEMPLE SQUARE, Tom.
Which happens to be the heart of the city. If I went on a killing spree in downtown Chicago, would I be targeting blacks?

Seriously, though, I'm not remotely invested in arguing whether or not the guy might have developed a grudge against his new home. Happens to lots of people, whether or not they choose to shoot up a mall. What bothers me is the assertion that this childhood war refugee was more likely to shoot up a mall because he was a mostly non-practicing Muslim.

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Alma Teao Wilson
Member
Member # 935

 - posted      Profile for Alma Teao Wilson   Email Alma Teao Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Big C

quote:
And when "Christians" in America "act out," do they seek out Muslims to murder?
  • I don't know. Ask Mr. Bush.
  • Only after they're bored of killing English soldiers, exterminating American Indians, lynching black folks, slaughtering Phillipinos, Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, Nicaraguans, Grenadans, Nicaraguans... Let's face it. George Patton and John Wayne were right: Every red-blooded American loves a good fight.

Posts: 368 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D Pace
Member
Member # 1493

 - posted      Profile for D Pace   Email D Pace       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which mall would be a bad place to visit to kill members of the LDS population of Salt Lake City?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignorant question. Probably any mall that's more than a couple hundred FEET from TEMPLE SQUARE, Tom. Whether on purpose or not, this worthless son of a bitch picked the one mall in SLC where he'd be most likely to murder mormons. And the killing spree ended up in a children's clothing area, neh?

SLC is majority non-LDS and the guy picked the very LDS heart of the city. Very small area, same one that the ACLU was sponsoring that bullhorn pogrom, as you might recall.


quote:
Local sources indicate there was no doubt that he deliberately went to the "right" mall to kill the local LDS population.
uhh... Sorry to rain on the "kill mormon" parade, but living eight blocks away, I would lean toward describing Trolley Square as the heart of non-mormon upscale Salt Lake City. I would actually describe Trolley Square as the one mall in the entire state of Utah where you would Not be likely to hit a mormon with a randomly swung cat. The business and marketing demographic of the shop development at Trolley Square has and continues to be as a cross-town non-Utah alternative to the malls right across from Temple Square, i.e. mormon central. It's a mile away from Temple Square.

DumbA** Piece of schiff stepped out of a parking lot and shot the first nine people he saw. He shot two people walking out of a brewpub. He shot a Utah transplanted women's college soccer player who walked up behind him. He shot and killed three people in a the front of a stationery store who were buying valentine's day cards. He then got engaged by and pinned down by an off-duty cop and stopped walking (across from a baby Gap). If he'd kept walking he'd have hit more adult venues (like the movie theaters with a liquor license that were next up the hall).

Anyway I'll be as excited or depressed as anybody to find out any cause or reason for what this Bosnian kid did, but pointing to Trolley Square as a venue and clue to anti-mormon / Christian intent is about as off as I think you could get.


-----------------------


As a personal note, following a movie at the aforementioned Trolley Sqaure theaters tonight, I quietly walked through and past the cards, flowers, and candles lining the halls and shops of Trolley Square, small shrines at each place a body had lain. I'd never understood until tonight the drive behind spontaneous community memorials. I wrote a small message and tucked it between flowers by a fountain.

Posts: 376 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D Pace
Member
Member # 1493

 - posted      Profile for D Pace   Email D Pace       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let me clarify that there is a broad difference and perhaps a confusion above between murder site Trolley Square (an upscale non-mormon shopping district one mile away from Temple Square inside Salt Lake City) and Temple Square (not a mass-murder site, the heart of mormondom, flanked by two malls currently being redeveloped, and also the site of ACLU protests and lawsuits concerning the sale of a Main Street block adjacent to Temple Square to the mormon church).

I think you guys may have been confusing where the shootings took place. Carry on.

Posts: 376 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Big C
Member
Member # 3404

 - posted      Profile for Big C     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Garsh Alma!

Americans haven't killed English soldiers since 1815! Of course, we didn't invite them.

But since you seem to intent on an all-inclusive indictment of American blood-lust, let's not forget Germans, Afghans, French-Nazi sympathizers (my own father bagged a few of them), Iraqis, Iranians, Japanese, Spaniards, Mexicans, (you got to count Nicaraguans twice--should we count Germans for both World Wars?), Italians, Koreans, Chinese Communists, Lebanese, Somalis, Dominicans, Barbary Pirates, Canadians (we had two unsuccessful invasion attempts), Chinese Boxers, Haitians, Cubans, and I apologize to any ethnicity/nationality I might have overlooked.

And even more than the good fight General Patton and the venerable John Wayne alluded to, I'd allow that Americans (and I'm very proud to say I am one) don't have much problem killing our enemies--and I must say that we're pretty damn good at it.

Now Alma, I've noticed a certain animus towards the US and Americans in your posts. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I'd bet none of my posts (in particular) have done anything to change your mind. But I'm curious, where do you live/what's your ethnicity? I haven't been on this forum very long, so I may have missed your introduction. I'm guessing you live in Australia or New Zealand and that you have some ties to the Maoris?

Just so you don't think I'm hiding anything, I'm a 54-year-old American. I'm one-quarter Irish and three-quarters German. I find my Irish heritage amusing and my German heritage acceptable. All sides of my family have been in America for quite a while and I haven't a clue as to where my ancestors "came from" in either country.

Posts: 171 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Viking_Longship
Member
Member # 3358

 - posted      Profile for Viking_Longship   Email Viking_Longship       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Alama Tea
Posts: 5765 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Viking_Longship
Member
Member # 3358

 - posted      Profile for Viking_Longship   Email Viking_Longship       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Alma Tea
"Christians" and American are not the same thing.

The actions of an army are dictated by their commanders, not their personal whim, so you really can't compare the actions of a lone gunman to your laundry list of American victims. (And what's wrong with killing English soldiers? They had invaded our homeland)

Big C I think you'd find the vast majority of the violence committed by Muslims is committed on Muslims.

Really as American I find getting upset about Muslims a secondary issue as long as we continue to be invaded by Mexicans who also do not restrict their acting out to their own community.

Posts: 5765 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I thought that Trolley Square was the name of the mall right across from Temple square. Since you live near the site, I guess you'd know better.

Note that I said:

"Whether on purpose or not, this worthless son of a bitch picked the one mall in SLC where he'd be most likely to murder mormons."

So I think that your "parade" attack was a grotesquely cheap shot. I haven't signed onto the hate crime interpretation, nor the interpretation that this has anything to do with Islam, or Christianity, or the LDS church. I don't think we can assign or dismiss possibilities at this point.

BTW, do you recall the site of the last psycho immigrant blitz in SLC a few years ago, the Chinese lady? What was the word on that one?

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
much of Europes numbers are the result of ETA and IRA action. I don't think Catholocism is religion of hate and violence.

You might want to recheck the religious affiliation of the leaders of ETA and the IRA, Jesse. It ain't Catholic.

quote:
Ask your muslim friends what the crime of "Hirabah" is. Ask them what the punishment is [Wink]

It's very unfortunate that the Western understanding of Islam has been so fundementally shaped by the relatively recent extremist theology of Wahib.

The Wahib infection has mosques all over and are very influential in the overall community, Jesse.

But excellent call on the Hirabah term. We should be calling the islamonecrophiles Hirabis, not Jihadis.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pete, most of the leadership of the IRA claimed to be Catholic until they got excommunicated.

Much of the membership of ETA is Catholic.

Wahibism absolutely is being spread with petrodollars. I don't disagree with you at all. However, what it teaches is a seriously warped version of Islam.

It's not Islam that's the problem.

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1