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Author Topic: The Heisman & the Texans
KnightEnder
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If they gave the Heisman away based on the Rose Bowl Michael Young would have won it hands down.

And do any of you think Bush's lackluster performance will keep him from going number 1? And since the Texans need linemen more than a running back, does anyone think they will trade down to number 3 to get that Virginia lineman and some more first rounders? Or draft Bush and trade him for all of Minnesotas players and their draft picks for the next ten years like Jimmy Johnson and the Cowboys did?

KE

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aupton15
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The Texans should trade down, maybe further than number 3. Bush would put butts in seats though, and that might be enough for ownership to draft him against the good of the team. His performance wasn't that bad in the big game, and I don't think it hurts his status at all. Vince Young definitely brought his status up, but I doubt he'll jump past Leinart just because he has an unorthodox throwing motion. One of the two will be quarterbacking the Saints next year, and I feel a little bit bad about that. They will spend much time being hit by defensive linemen.
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KnightEnder
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Jim Rome said that Kent Tulkulvae thinks Youngs throwing style is strange. [Big Grin] (Tulkulvae used to pitch for the Pirates and he threw the submarine pitch. Almost completely underhanded.)

KE

[ January 05, 2006, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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aupton15
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Jim Rome makes some obscure sports references, but I guess most people who watch him are pretty hardcore.

The question with Young will be whether he can a) adapt his (weird) throwing style for a quicker release and better accuracy or b) start over with his throwing mechanics altogether. If he can be a decent thrower, I don't think there's any doubt he can play QB in the NFL. He brings the extra element that is so hard to defend. I have no particular interest in Texas football, but I really hope he succeeds. I think he could make a bad team competitive pretty quickly.

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aupton15
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Or Detroit could draft him to play receiver!
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Everard
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Bush was never the correct choice for heisman... he had 2 monster games at the end of the season that really elevated him in the eyes of the voters. He isn't even really the hands down best running back on his team. I mean, Barry Sanders was great and all, but he was never The Best, simply because he lost 1-3 yards on abotu 1/3 of his carries every year. Bush strikes me as a Barry Sanders type runner... very elusive, and fast, but not a lot of power to break tackles, so if he DOES get hit, he's going down. White, on the other hand, you KNOW he'll get at least 3 yards almost every time you give him the ball. But he's not a "home run" threat every time you give him the ball either. Put them together, and they are a heisman winner. Seperately? I think it was obvious in the rose bowl that Young is a difference maker on every play. Bush only plays about half the downs on his team as a running back.

I think the voters got overawed by Bush's spectacular runs, and missed the obvious problem that he's only a part time running back.

I'm still not sure whether I'm glad texas won or not. USC was way over-hyped "They're the best team ever! none of the great teams would beat them!" my hind foot. And I hate hype like that.

On the other hand, I root against texas in EVERYTHING, simply because its texas (much like, I suspect, most texans root against Boston in everything).

Oh well. It was a good game. Almost as good as the Orange Bowl [Smile] And my Badgers won the capital one bowl. So I'm happy.

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aupton15
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Umm...I'm not sure Barry Sanders is the appropriate comparison to say he's over-rated, or not the best in his own backfield. I understand the criticism of Bush, but Sanders was a bit harder to bring down than that. And he was on his way to breaking the all-time rushing mark even though he was usually the only threat on his team.
I think Bush is more dangerous as a returner than a traditional running back, because he can make people miss when he has space. He might have trouble running between the tackles in the NFL, especially for a bad team that doesn't have a particularly good offensive line to give him space (meet the Texans). Or he might live up to the comparisons and make us all look foolish.

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Everard
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"Umm...I'm not sure Barry Sanders is the appropriate comparison to say he's over-rated, or not the best in his own backfield"

I guess I should have finished the comparison and pointed out that White is as much like an Emitt Smith as Bush is like Barry Sanders. Both were great running backs, but if you had to pick just one, I think most of the time people would take Smith, for most of their careers. Barry Sanders was hit or miss... when he hit, it was sometimes AMAZING. But 1/3 the time, it was second and 12 after he ran the ball. Smith, on the other hand, you KNEW would give you second and 7 the vast majority of the time, and probably second and 6, second and 5.

To me, the guy who is consistent is more valuable. Sanders is more fun to watch, but if you want to build a championship team, you want Smith.

Don't get me wrong. Bush is a great college player. But White is at least as good, and Vince Young proved he's better. And if Laurence Maroney hadn't gotten hurt, I'd put him up over Bush, too.

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aupton15
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Much better [Smile]

I actually would have taken Sanders, with the Dallas offensive line, but I can appreciate the debate there. And I definitely think White is going to be a solid NFL back, and Young is probably the better athlete. I'm not convinced yet that Young will make a better pro than Bush, just because the quarterback position is more difficult in many ways.
And I'm not sure what to do with the second pick right now. The Saints need a quarterback, but which one? Leinart could be solid, or he could be the product of the skill players around him. Young can make plays on his own, but do you trust his strange mechanics to work for him? I never get this worked up over the NFL draft!!! I wonder if White will be around long enough for my 6-10 Eagles to pick him up??? Probably not.

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Everard
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" And I definitely think White is going to be a solid NFL back, and Young is probably the better athlete. I'm not convinced yet that Young will make a better pro than Bush, just because the quarterback position is more difficult in many ways."

I remain unconvinced Bush will be a pro in three years [Smile] Backs who make their living being elusive tend to have VERY short shelf lives. On the other hand, quarterbacks tend not to get started doing much of anything until their third year pro. So measuring Young vs Bush will never be really possible, I think, unless one flames out and the other has a long career.

Ron Dayne was a recent running back who looked "can't miss" for the pro's, because he had good patience good strength and good speed. The question was always if he could catch the ball and block, not if he could run. But he never made it, really. And I think Bush might suffer the same fate, though for different reasons. Ron Dayne turned out to be TOO reliant on his offensive line at Wisconsin, and while he had patience, he couldn't hit the hole fast enough. On the other hand, Bush hasn't had the best offensive line to work behind, so he's more or less relied on himself. But the defences in the NFL are much faster and much better disciplined. If he doesn't learn patience to get behind blockers, he might find himself swarmed at the line of scrimmage on a regular basis.

We'll see. As I said earlier, I hate hype [Smile] So I'm trying to rationalize why I dislike Bush so much.

Honestly, I suspect white and bush might both end up as receivers.

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IrishTD
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Texans: Trade down -- get at least one starting O-lineman for moving out of the #1 spot. They have decent talent, but no O-line. And I'd argue that a good O-line is the most important thing a team can have.

Young: Probably deserved the Heisman a bit more than Bush...still don't think you could have gone wrong with either one though (Bush had very good return yardage). Should be an effective NFL QB, even without adjusting his throwing motion (he was #1 in the nation in efficiency this year...). Probably a better fit for the 'Aints than Lineart.

Lineart: Will be a good QB. Probably best to put him on the bench for a year. I could see someone like the Jets really, really wanting him.

White: Might be smart to stay in school. Excellent RB, but could probably improve draft position by being THE back for a year. Either way, he should be a solid pro -- marktet for RBs is pretty weak now though. I'd say he looks way too powerful at RB to turn into a WR.

Bush: Excellent choice for any team. Wouldn't really want him to be a feature back. Would be good in a system with another RB that can pound away (think of Bush lined up with a Bettis-like back in a formation with split backs). Best used as a returner and lined up in a lot of positions (few snaps split out, few in motion, few as a single back, few in an I/split backfield). Most coaches would be salivating to find matchups against LBs for Bush (esp. with the 5 yard contact zone). And he might be quicker than a fair number of safties as well. If he stays healthy, should have a decent career.

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RickyB
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Barry, with the Big D O-line? Sheeeet, boi. You'd need a telescope to see his back in the record book. Go check how many of Barry's linemen went to Hawaii, versus how many of Emmitt's. I love Emmitt, but switch him with Barry and he's lucky to have 12K yards on his career. Barry, meanwhile, would have 20K at least and about the same amount of finger ornaments.
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RickyB
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I'm wondering if there's any chance Leinart will fall to my Jets, or if we can trade up for him (Yes, I have given the hell up on Penny. Sorry, dude. You're a great guy, but you never did have an arm to start with, and now there are girls who put more zip on the egg).

And isn't Young staying in school?

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IrishTD
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Young, in theory, is staying in school. However, what's he have left to play for? The Heisman? That's about it...and most Heisman winners haven't had the greatest NFL careers...might as well go pro.
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Everard
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I tend to think that runners should leave early. There are only so many hits you can take before your career is over. Young definetely qualifies as a runner.

Above, when I said white and bush will both end up as receivers, I meant to say young and bush

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IrishTD
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I'd be surprised if Young ended up as a WR...he's a big boy...and while the throwing motion is awkward, it's tough to argue with a 65%+ completion rate...
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KnightEnder
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Young just declared that he is entering the draft. I'm shocked. Where do y'all think he will go?

KE

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aupton15
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I think it's basically up to the Saints. They'll most likely be choosing between Leinart and Young. The Titans get the third pick. I think Young would be a great backup and eventual replacement to Steve McNair, and if McNair is playing next year it would guarantee Young at least some time to learn behind a solid starter. I think for the Saints, Leinart is the safer choice, but they are also going to be replacing a fairly mobile quarterback in Aaron Brooks, so I'm sure they'll take a long look at Young as well. I'm sure the pre-draft combines will be the difference-maker at this point.
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