Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Your Warning (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Your Warning
ssci
Member
Member # 1053

 - posted      Profile for ssci   Email ssci   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Holy crap! Hispanics counted as whites?! We clearly do not have enough shades of prejudice.
Posts: 442 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Richard Dey
Member
Member # 1727

 - posted      Profile for Richard Dey   Email Richard Dey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Big Grin] !

"And deh devil, mons, he be a red mans wid a bifurcated pik and a tail stickin' out o' his behind!" -OH-

Posts: 7866 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:

The truth is, Americans need to make sure we stay a melting pot based on individual liberty and the Rule of Law. And to pretend that this kind of cultural compromise is dangerous is to equate one's current culture with the ideal, and by so doing shut off any chance of progressing further as a people.

The truth is, your idea of a melting pot based on individual liberty and the Rule of Law, is one's current culture with the ideal.

YOURS!

quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:
I look forward to a continued melting pot where the best of all peoples is combined, and the worst of all of us is burned off... meaning people like this jerk.

And will it be your "melting pot" culture who decides the worst of all of us is burned off?
Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not the worst of all of us, JB, just the worst of us. The worst ideas, that are based on fear and hatred. The ones that can't be sustained when faced with reality of other people, what they are really like, and how they really behave, rather than the tribalistic prejudices we all have of "The Other."

That is the ideal of America, JB, that we are stronger together than when we divide ourselves based on appearances or what we expect individuals to do rather than what they really do.

Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
drewmie
Member
Member # 1179

 - posted      Profile for drewmie   Email drewmie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wayward Son, exactly.
quote:
J.B wrote: The truth is, your idea of a melting pot based on individual liberty and the Rule of Law, is one's current culture with the ideal. YOURS!
Only in the widest sense. It is a template upon which any culture willing to adopt these barest of tenets can participate equally. Their culture and traditions can melt in as long as they accept that governments should preserve human rights, be subject the the will of the governed, and enforce the Rule of Law.

Some cultures can't participate in that, because they are unwilling to accept those basic principles. And many of them would love to use our freedoms against us. Unfortunately, some Americans are ignorant enough of history to rationalize eroding our rights, and even government's accountability to its people (e.g. Alberto Gonzales).

They use phrases like "We're at war!" to justify their stance. But in reality, they simply don't have much faith in the strength of our principles. If they did, they wouldn't treat them like conveniences to be respected only when times are good. They just don't plain don't believe that the American experiment can succeed without compromising its most basic values. And that's sad.
quote:
J.B wrote: And will it be your "melting pot" culture who decides the worst of all of us is burned off?
Nobody decides. That's the point. Nobody should ever be entrusted with that kind of power, no matter how good their intentions. That which can survive in the mix of ideas will survive. That which can't will have believers trying to change the rules when they realize their culture (or aspects of it) are too weak to withstand any competition.

[ June 12, 2007, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: drewmie ]

Posts: 3702 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
J.B., lemme ask you a serious question - are you second (or third) generation?
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zyne
Member
Member # 117

 - posted      Profile for Zyne   Email Zyne   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ricky -- I only leave you with the heavy lifting because I like to watch your muscles in action. Mmmmmmmm!

[Smile]

Posts: 4003 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stop it. Flattery will get you... Oh, right - everywhere [Big Grin]
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:
Nobody decides. That's the point. Nobody should ever be entrusted with that kind of power, no matter how good their intentions.

But you wrote:

quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:
I look forward to a continued melting pot where the best of all peoples is combined, and the worst of all of us is burned off... meaning people like this jerk.

So the truth is, you do want to decide who is "burned off"

A man named Hitler once spoke the same as you do today.

Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonaldD
Member
Member # 1052

 - posted      Profile for DonaldD   Email DonaldD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, what drewmie is talking about is a natural progression. Eventually, without conscious effort, "people like this jerk" will be burned off simply by the nature of this culture and this society, while "the best" will organically combine to form a continuously improving alloy.
Posts: 10751 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
drewmie
Member
Member # 1179

 - posted      Profile for drewmie   Email drewmie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Precisely, DonaldD. It's about having faith that the best ideas and cultural aspects will always NATURALLY win out in the end over bad ones in a society that allows both (as long as they allow each other). People like Hitler had no faith in the inherent superiority of their convictions, and therefore found it necessary to forcibly eliminate the competition.

The clearest sign that an ideology or culture is inferior is if its proponents find it necessary to impose it by force.

P.S.- J.B, you should take a look at Godwin's Law. He who invokes Hitler loses the argument. [Wink]

[ June 14, 2007, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: drewmie ]

Posts: 3702 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
Not the worst of all of us, JB, just the worst of us. The worst ideas, that are based on fear and hatred.

What is the idea of this article that give's you so much fear and hatred?
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
The ones that can't be sustained when faced with reality of other people, what they are really like, and how they really behave, rather than the tribalistic prejudices we all have of "The Other."

Can we talk about what are diversity is?

"What will happen is that Western structures in America will be either destroyed from without, or transformed from within, used to suit the goals of the new rulers".

You don't think this can happen?

What makes you think that hispanics would want to inherit "Western structures or values"? Mexican's want to be Mexican's, and they should.

Don't be ashamed of your diversity, "The Other" groups arn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:

That is the ideal of America, JB, that we are stronger together than when we divide ourselves based on appearances or what we expect individuals to do rather than what they really do.

Do you really think Mexicans come to America to spread diversity?

They don't care about your white ass diversity crap.

Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Do you really think Mexicans come to America to spread diversity?
No, they come to America to live.

And after living in America for a while, they become Americans. [Smile]

Usually they will take the best that they brought from Mexico, and combine it with the best that they have found in America, and produce something (hopefully) even better than what either culture originally had.

It doesn't matter if they care about it or not. It is what happens when people move into new cultures.

How do you think English culture evolved? From combining aspects of all the nations that conquered it.

But rather than having to be conquered, we embrace change in America.

The only ones that are a danger to this natural cultural evolution are those who cling to their old cultures regardless of what they learn. Those Mexicans that think they are only Mexicans. Blacks who think they are only blacks. Or whites who think Western culture is some great ideal set in stone that can only be corrupted by other cultures. They are the ones who live on fear of change, which leads to hatred of those who might change things.

There is no reason to fear the transformations that occur from the new rulers. Because we, Americans--all Americans--are the rulers. And we will do what works best for us.

All of us, from everywhere.

Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:
Precisely, DonaldD. It's about having faith that the best ideas and cultural aspects will always NATURALLY win out in the end over bad ones in a society that allows both (as long as they allow each other). People like Hitler had no faith in the inherent superiority of their convictions, and therefore found it necessary to forcibly eliminate the competition.

Saying things like,
quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:

The worst of all of us is burned off

you do have a understanding of Hitlers ways.
quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:

The clearest sign that an ideology or culture is inferior is if its proponents find it necessary to impose it by force.

Why impose anything at all, with force or not?
How are you going to impose anything?

So your saying if you have to impose anything at all then, "your ideology or culture is inferior".
Did you know that things like slavery are imposed by force?

quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:

He who invokes Hitler loses the argument.

Was it not you that invoked Hitler with your view that people who opposed your "Melting Pot" culture should be "burned off"?
quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:

I look forward to a continued melting pot where the best of all peoples is combined, and the worst of all of us is burned off.


Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ssci
Member
Member # 1053

 - posted      Profile for ssci   Email ssci   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good post, Wayward
Posts: 442 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rallan
Member
Member # 1936

 - posted      Profile for Rallan   Email Rallan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm gonna ask you a question I've asked you before JB. What do you propose we actually do with all the blacks and hispanics in America?
Posts: 2570 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daniel Hammel
Member
Member # 2472

 - posted      Profile for Daniel Hammel   Email Daniel Hammel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
J.B. it sounds to me like you're debating yourself. I hate when i debate myself - i always come to the same conclusion.
Posts: 18 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Usually they will take the best that they brought from Mexico, and combine it with the best that they have found in America, and produce something (hopefully) even better than what either culture originally had.
Do you have any actual foundation for this? This sounds suspiciously like your own wishful thinking to me. Similarly:

quote:
I look forward to a continued melting pot where the best of all peoples is combined, and the worst of all of us is burned off.
Where does this fairyland crap come from?

quote:
But rather than having to be conquered, we embrace change in America.

The only ones that are a danger to this natural cultural evolution are those who cling to their old cultures regardless of what they learn. Those Mexicans that think they are only Mexicans. Blacks who think they are only blacks. Or whites who think Western culture is some great ideal set in stone that can only be corrupted by other cultures. They are the ones who live on fear of change, which leads to hatred of those who might change things.

I notice you don't put "Americans" in that group. What happens if "cultural evolution", as you call it, just means that your diverse culture gets overwhelmed and destroyed by someone else's culture?

Sure, sometimes cultures get intermeshed. But then again, more often than not, a dominant culture overwhelms and subjugates a weaker one.

Are you actually going to argue with J.B. using something other than wishful thinking a P.C. platitudes about diversity?

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To clarify my previous post, what you all have been describing about cultures intermingling, the worst being burnt off, strength through diversity, that is a culture. And like every other culture, it can be destroyed, overwhelmed, replaced, etc... You keep acting as if the only possible outcome is a gradual "evolution". What history books have you been reading?

I believe J.B.'s point that you have all simply been ignoring as you chastize him with determinist platitudes and wishful thinking, is that the culture you love, you know, the one that burns off the worst of us etc... may disappear too. And there's no law of the universe that says it must disappear in favour of a more diverse culture, or that it must "evolve" gradually into something different.

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daniel Hammel
Member
Member # 2472

 - posted      Profile for Daniel Hammel   Email Daniel Hammel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I for one think it doesn't really matter, culture will evolve whether people debate it or not. Culture changes by the infusion of other peoples into that culture, and frankly its not a bad thing. Take a culture like the Romans, they had very little culture of their own. The Romans as they conquered took in the best aspects of those cultures, and it made them in my opinion vastly stronger. Granted it all fell apart at the end. but culture does that. Once in America the center of culture were the Natives. I bet those people didn't want to taken over by European culture, but it happened, and the world moved on. In my opinion it doesn't matter what race of people inherits a particular parcel of land, it matters what they do with that land. My grandparents on both sides fled oppression, just as i believe in a sense that the South, and Central Americans - as do various other cultures. I agree heartily with Wayward Sun on how he summed up his point.
Posts: 18 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I for one think it doesn't really matter, culture will evolve whether people debate it or not. Culture changes by the infusion of other peoples into that culture, and frankly its not a bad thing. Take a culture like the Romans, they had very little culture of their own. The Romans as they conquered took in the best aspects of those cultures, and it made them in my opinion vastly stronger. Granted it all fell apart at the end. but culture does that. Once in America the center of culture were the Natives. I bet those people didn't want to taken over by European culture, but it happened, and the world moved on. In my opinion it doesn't matter what race of people inherits a particular parcel of land, it matters what they do with that land. My grandparents on both sides fled oppression, just as i believe in a sense that the South, and Central Americans - as do various other cultures. I agree heartily with Wayward Sun on how he summed up his point.
I find this letting the chips fall where they may attitude a little puzzling. I don't personally subscribe to the view that all cultures are equal. Some cultures are monstrous and should not be allowed to spread. Radical Islam, by way of example. (or radical expansionist Christianity, a la 15th and 16th century Spain, if you prefer a less overused example) These are examples of cultures I would never want to live under. I don't consider these cultures to be equally good alternatives to American style liberal democracy.

Moreover, like real evolution, I don't see cultural "evolution" as a straight line leading to better and better things. Cultures don't always get better. Heck, just as often, they can get worse. The only thing that is certain is change. But pretending that any change that happens is going to involve burning off "the worst of all of us" seems pretty naive and for that matter, downright ignorant of history.

I get this sense sometimes that people who talk about strength through diversity and cultural evolution only see other peoples' culture as "culture". It doesn't occur to them that diversity and tolerance are part of culture too. It doesn't seem to occur to them either that true diversity isn't just different kinds of restaurants and a street festival with funny clothes and music once in awhile. Diversity isn't a tap that can be turned on and off at your whim. When you let other cultures in, you have to take the good with the bad. They have to change to adapt to you and you may have to change to adapt to them. What if that change means that you can't listen to the kind of music you like anymore, or wear the kinds of clothes you want to wear anymore because it might offend those of a different culture? Are you ready to make that sacrifice for diversity? If not, if you think you should have the right to do as you please, then that's part of your culture, isn't it? And clearly you don't want that part of your culture to "evolve".

[ June 16, 2007, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daniel Hammel
Member
Member # 2472

 - posted      Profile for Daniel Hammel   Email Daniel Hammel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Culture over time will dictate what happens regardless of some people's stange obsession with wanting to control it. It's nice to chat about what we think is correct or better, East Vs. West etc. In the end culture does not run like people do, culture goes between 2 theoretical spots - radical left and radical right. There is only grey in between.

I don't think in strength through diversity, so much as know that no matter what: culture will change regardless of how people feel about it. It will always go back and forth between left and right thinking cultures. I belive that it is imperative that new people are brought into culture to infuse new ideas. Without this you see decay and decline - See - Modern Russia, Germany and many other nations with declining birth rates and more pensioneers than workers.

Its a very hard choice to choose not to take sides with the ideology i was born into. We are moving very quickly to in my opinion a world hegemony. It seems to so clear, i think thats what a lot of people fear. They fear the UN and its so called inclusion and its hollow words. They fear the G-8 and NAFTA. Nation states i think, are going out like city-states did with the end of Greco-Roman times.

People will migrate according to disparity in the world, thats nothing new. Its the people that tell us that the new ones among us are to be feared and suspected that corrupt society in general.

But thats just my opinion.

Posts: 18 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
drewmie
Member
Member # 1179

 - posted      Profile for drewmie   Email drewmie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I find this letting the chips fall where they may attitude a little puzzling. I don't personally subscribe to the view that all cultures are equal.
None of us do, jasonr. But some of us believe that if those cultures must compete without oppressing others (unlike the Native American and Hitler non-examples), that the best will naturally win out, without force and without maintaining "my" culture. PEOPLE will not be "burned off," but rather those aspects of their culture which don't lead to optimal outcomes.

For the record, I don't consider my culture "best" or "optimal" by any means. I do believe my middle-class, European immigrant, American culture is something to be very proud of and grateful for. I also believe we have a long way to go, and a lot of cultural weaknesses to "burn off" (J.B, it's a "crucible if ideas" symbol, not a violence symbol). And I don't see us doing that as quickly without seeing other alternatives around us.

The enemies of culture are stagnation and arrogance. No matter how great I believe my culture is, I want to remain vigilant and critical of it, even while being extremely grateful and in awe of it.

P.S.- I think mixing the metaphors of "crucible" and "melting pot" led to some confusion here. But I do think it can be useful to add that aspect to our American "melting pot" metaphor.

[ June 16, 2007, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: drewmie ]

Posts: 3702 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Do you have any actual foundation for this? This sounds suspiciously like your own wishful thinking to me.
A few. Mostly my take on history, where I have seen cultures blended until they become new cultures, very dissimilar to the original cultures. I see that happening in America right now.

For proof, I give you Spanglish. When the words change, the connotations behind them change, too. The shared cultural that spawns the use of new words is different from the original culture. So the Mexican culture in the Southwest is different from the Mexican culture in Mexico (unless, of course, the Southwest culture is influencing the culture south of the border).

Yes, the ideal that only the best will survive is somewhat “wishful thinking.” But I believe it is the inevitable process of evolution. People will choose what works best. Thus, the “worst” will be discarded.

It’s odd that you call it “PC platitudes,” since it based on another widely held concept that is definitely not “PC”—the Free Market. Cultural freedom works similarly to economic freedom, and it is widely believed that people will buy the best products when given the choice. So I believe people will choose the best aspects of culture when given the choice.

And, yes, there are some aspects of certain cultures that must be opposed (including aspects of our own). Ones that may make short-term sense but a bad in the long term. Gangsterism, for instance, or governmental corruption. People identifying themselves as members of a nation rather than any subgroups within a nation must be present to preserve a nation. (This lack of national identity is one reason Iraq is failing, IMHO.) And keeping culture as a free market, rather than dictated by a central authority, is necessary to prevent subjugation of one culture by another.

But blanket condemnation of another culture as being innately “inferior” will never work. Yes, some cultures are objectively inferior. But cultures became dominant because they work best in their situation (or, at least, worked best at one time), so there have to some aspects that work well in certain situations. So there will always be some strengths in any given culture. Whether we want to embrace those strengths is another question, though.

And ultimately it is a moot point. Although dominant cultures may subjugate a weaker culture, that weaker culture will still have an impact. It changes those in the dominant culture, although they may not realize it. As Daniel points out, culture evolution will occur whether we like it or not. Opposing any change will only postpone the change, not stop it. And trying to control all change will cause problems like trying to control an economic market. Bad aspects of a culture will be preserved for far longer than they need to be.

So, no, I don’t believe it is “fairyland crap.” It is recognizing the inevitability of change and trying to work with the change, using the law of “survival of the fittest” (to borrow an economic term [Smile] ). Embracing it and working with it is far more beneficial than opposing it or worrying about how "their" culture will destroy our own.

Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rallan:
I'm gonna ask you a question I've asked you before JB. What do you propose we actually do with all the blacks and hispanics in America?

Be honest with their behaviour, don't be afraid, don't call people names because they question why blacks and hispanics are so much more violent then other groups of people.

Don't be afraid to talk about what is the true intentions of these millions of people fleeing to us.

I think the more people stand up to this problem, and stop feeling sorrow and pity and truly treat people as equal, the better things will be.

Any kind of laws or groups that only allow one race of people to participate in, should be stopped now.

Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:


And after living in America for a while, they become Americans. [Smile]

You seam so sure that these people will abandon their cuture for another.

What if they don't want to, what if they can't?

Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drewmie:
I don't personally subscribe to the view that all cultures are equal.

Hey drewmie, why don't you tell us what makes some cultures unequal to others?
Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by J.B:
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:


And after living in America for a while, they become Americans. [Smile]

You seam so sure that these people will abandon their cuture for another.

What if they don't want to, what if they can't?

It doesn't matter too much, their kids will.
Posts: 3719 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
You seem so sure that these people will abandon their cuture for another.

What if they don't want to, what if they can't?

They won't "abandon" their culture. They will change, and (as philnotfil points out) so will their children. They will use what they find best from the culture they came from, and from the culture they now live in.

And the culture they now live in will change, too.

And that will become the new American culture.

It doesn't matter if "they don't want to." They have no choice, unless they make a conscious effort to not change. But a majority of people don't make such an effort, as shown by the use of "Spanglish."

Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:

So, no, I don’t believe it is “fairyland crap.” It is recognizing the inevitability of change and trying to work with the change, using the law of “survival of the fittest” (to borrow an economic term [Smile] ). Embracing it and working with it is far more beneficial than opposing it or worrying about how "their" culture will destroy our own.

"From what I have seen and read thus far, I fear Americans will capitulate just as we did. Americans are, generally, a soft lot. They don't want to quarrel or obstruct the claims of those who believe they were wronged. They like peace and quiet, and they want to compromise and be nice".

"Americans may soon find themselves unable or unwilling to stand up to challenge the new political methods that will be the inevitable result of the ethnic metamorphosis now taking place in America. Unable to cope with the new rules of the game -- violence, mob riots, intimidation through accusations of racism, demands for proportionality based on racial numbers, and all the other social and political weapons used by the have-nots to bludgeon treasure and power from the haves -- Americans, like others before them, will no doubt cave in. They will compromise away their independence and ultimately their way of life".

Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
drewmie
Member
Member # 1179

 - posted      Profile for drewmie   Email drewmie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
J.B wrote: Hey drewmie, why don't you tell us what makes some cultures unequal to others?
Okay. Many African and Arab cultures are highly tribal, and have a long tradition of infighting, brutality, and corruption. I like to use movies as examples. Lawrence of Arabia is a good example of tribes who were so small-minded that they were more concerned with their tribe's spoils than with actually using their overwhelming advantages in unity.

Ironically, the Palestinians today have no clue that they could easily have their own thriving nation if they were simply willing to use a few basic ideas of the Rule of Law and representative government, but it seems they simply don't care enough about prosperity over other petty interests. THAT is a seriously screwed up culture, especially with all the international money that flows to the Palestinians.

Having spend some time in South Africa, I can vouch for the perspective of Keith B. Richburg's Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa. While not very consistently written, it is definitely worth the read. He unflinchingly shows how Africa's violence and poverty is based in African cultural and political problems. I've read many of the same things about Mexico and other countries south of our border, where cultures of violence and corruption often trump international aid.

But what of America? America may have the Rule of Law, but it isn't perfect. The flipside is an obsession with "justice," which more often than not means retribution and payback. Another strength/weakness is our obsession with individuality. The advantages are obvious, but there are also serious disadvantages which sometimes make me feel that we've gone too far, from individualism to narcissism. What we need is balance, something Americans often have a hard time doing, which makes us lucky to have a "separation of powers" philosophy to force a bit of balance on us. Consider:
quote:
Long ago, Tocqueville anticipated how individualism, unenriched by family and community, could produce the "lonely crowd," saying:

"Thus not only does democracy make every man forget his ancestors, but it hides his descendants and separates his contemporaries from him; it throws him back forever upon himself alone and threatens in the end to confine him entirely within the solitude of his own heart." (Alexis de Tocqueville, "Democracy in America") - Neal A. Maxwell

Which of these cultures is a "net positive" over the others? With such a subjective question, it seems that the best answer is to choose those who are best at achieving their OWN peoples' goals. And frankly, American culture -- with all its many weaknesses-- has proven far better at doing that than most African and Arab cultures.

P.S.- A great example of a HIGHLY successful culture in the middle of the Arab world? The Kurds. They've gone from terrorists to statesmen in a relatively short amount of time. I would have thumbed my nose at Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and the rest a long time ago in order to create a Kurdistan. Let those who can actually govern themselves have the chance to do it. Even today, I'd push for a Federalist model in Iraq which gives a certain amount of autonomy to Iraqi Kurdistan.

[ June 18, 2007, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: drewmie ]

Posts: 3702 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Americans may soon find themselves unable or unwilling to stand up to challenge the new political methods that will be the inevitable result of the ethnic metamorphosis now taking place in America. Unable to cope with the new rules of the game -- violence, mob riots, intimidation through accusations of racism, demands for proportionality based on racial numbers, and all the other social and political weapons used by the have-nots to bludgeon treasure and power from the haves -- Americans, like others before them, will no doubt cave in. They will compromise away their independence and ultimately their way of life
Yes, J.B., I am so terrified of the thought of riots in L.A., Detroit, New York or other major cities! And what will we ever do if there is gang violence in these cities, like peaceful Chicago?? And racial quotas--why, if they are ever implemented, I would expect that our society would immediately collapse. I mean, we've never had to deal with things like that in the past!

What will we ever do? [Roll Eyes]

[ June 18, 2007, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Wayward Son ]

Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
They will use what they find best from the culture they came from, and from the culture they now live in.

Could you name a few of these best of cultures things you talk about?
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:

And the culture they now live in will change, too.

And that will become the new American culture.

Boy, you got it all figured out.
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:

It doesn't matter if "they don't want to." They have no choice,

Really, have you told the mexican's this yet?
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
Unless they make a conscious effort to not change.

Change how, not be so mexican?
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
But a majority of people don't make such an effort, as shown by the use of "Spanglish."

That movie bombed.
Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
NSCutler
Member
Member # 1403

 - posted      Profile for NSCutler   Email NSCutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Could you name a few of these best of cultures things you talk about?"

I've always found the zero rather useful, if you want to go back as far as cultural exchanges of the 12th century. And the potato is the most brilliant fete of genetic engineering in the history of agriculture.

If we're just talking recent Mexican influence on US culture, how about these:

Guillermo del Toro's movies

Nachos del Grande

Everything about Salma Hayek

Frida Kahlo's paintings

Frida Kahlo's embrace of female body hair

Diego Rivera's murals

Los Tigres del Norte. (I defy anyone of purely anglo decent to make the accordion that cool. Even if their last name is Yankovic)

Sabado Gigante: Yes, Don Francisco is a shmuck, but I'd trade both Bob Barker and Brian Seacrest for him in a heartbeat.

Shouting out GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! whenever a goal is scored in soccer.

And finally: TEQUILA!!!!

Posts: 789 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rhoetus
Member
Member # 3937

 - posted      Profile for Rhoetus   Email Rhoetus       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
J.B.:you consider what percentage of urban poor are black? Nothing is more depressing and desperation invoking than the hopelessness of the ghetto. The brick walls boxing you in while cockroaches crawl over your dishes in the cupboard, the neighbor's babies crying and gunshots are going off in the distance... you can't get a job, because you are a gangsta, obviously, but the guys in the pimped out Caddies will slide a buck or two your way if only....
Race has nothing to do with it, except as a way of people singling each other out.
I wanna see stats for violence from urban poor as opposed to rural...and I got a suspicion on what it'd show.

Posts: 160 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rhoetus
Member
Member # 3937

 - posted      Profile for Rhoetus   Email Rhoetus       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
NSC, dude... Yankovic... not really an anglo name. But the coolest cat out there, white and nerdy or no.
Posts: 160 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhoetus:
J.B.:you consider what percentage of urban poor are black?

Yes, the percentage of urban poor who are black is the same as the percentage of urban poor blacks with low IQ's.
Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes, the percentage of urban poor who are black is the same as the percentage of urban poor blacks with low IQ's.
So? What's your point?
Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ssci
Member
Member # 1053

 - posted      Profile for ssci   Email ssci   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Are you implying that the urban poor who are white have higher I.Q.s? Or that only dumb people are poor?
Posts: 442 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
J.B
Member
Member # 3572

 - posted      Profile for J.B         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, what makes more sence to you?

Will being poor make you dumb,
or
will being dumb make you poor?

Posts: 389 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1