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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » "Homosexuality is death, and I choose life." (Page 1)

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Author Topic: "Homosexuality is death, and I choose life."
Kent
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The complete story

quote:
He was a rising star in the "gay rights" movement, but Michael Glatze now declares not only has he given up activism – he's no longer a homosexual.

Glatze – who had become a frequent media source as founding editor of Young Gay America magazine – tells the story of his transformation in an exclusive column published today by WND.

Although Glatze cut himself off from the homosexual community about a year and a half ago, he says the column likely will surprise some people.

"This will actually be news to anybody I used to relate to," he told WND.

I'm so excited that I will finally have a thread go to three pages!
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MattP
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I wouldn't go to WND for the "complete story" on anything. He could just as likely be re-closeted or responding to the breakup with his partner of several years.

Regarding his new heterosexual persona, Glatze has said "Healing from the Sins of the world will not happen in an instant, but, it will happen," so he's not exactly getting busy with the ladies, either. The best he can claim is celibacy at this point.

It's also important, I think, to note that he converted to Mormonism. (that fact not included in the WND "complete story") He may be ex-gay the same way many other converts are ex-coffee drinkers - purposely denying his still existing desires to fit the requirements of his new faith. The church stance is that there is nothing sinful about "homosexual tendencies" as long as one does not act on them.

[ July 09, 2007, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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Kent
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Matt, there is another article linked at the bottom that was written by Michael Glatze himself:

quote:
We believe, under the influence of homosexuality, that lust is not just acceptable, but a virtue. But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust.

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0Megabyte
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"But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust."

Without reading anymore then that, I would counter that, if he's defining desire in any reasonable way, then the same could be said of heterosexual desire.

And I disagree. If he's using a reasonable definition of desire.

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Kent
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Seriously, he is now a Mormon!?! Well never mind then.
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MattP
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quote:
We believe, under the influence of homosexuality, that lust is not just acceptable, but a virtue. But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust.
That quote goes a long way to showing how out of touch he is. I remember when a gay friend of my mothers was dying of aids many years ago and his partner spent every waking minute at his bedside, taking care of his rapidly failing body. There was no lust there, just tender love.
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AKA JB
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Does homosexual activity shorten life?

Cameron P, Cameron K, Playfair WL.

Family Research Institute, Colorado Springs, CO 80962, USA.

Previous estimates from obituaries and pre-1994 sex surveys suggested that the median age of death for homosexuals is less than 50 yr. Four contemporary databases were used to test that estimate: (1) obituaries in the homosexual press from 1993 through 1997 reflected treatment success for those with AIDS but suggested a median age of death less than 50 years; (2) two large random sexuality surveys in 1994--one in the USA and the other in Britain--yielded results consistent with a median age of death for homosexuals of less than 50 years; (3) the median age of those ever married in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway was about 50 years, while that of the ever homosexually partnered was about 40 yr; further, the married were about 5 times more apt to be old and 4 times less apt to be widowed young; and (4) intravenous drug abusers and homosexuals taking HIV tests in Colorado had almost identical age distributions. The four lines of evidence were consistent with previous findings suggesting that homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9923159&dopt=Abstract

Thank God.

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Storm Saxon
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If he's happy not being gay, that's fine. Good for him.

Just as it would be inappropriate for people who 'discover' that they are gay in their 30s and 40s to believe that everyone should be gay, I don't know that it's appropriate to make the leap that what didn't work for Glatze is wrong for everyone else.

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0Megabyte
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"That quote goes a long way to showing how out of touch he is. I remember when a gay friend of my mothers was dying of aids many years ago and his partner spent every waking minute at his bedside, taking care of his rapidly failing body. There was no lust there, just tender love. "

Matt: That's a much better statement of the sentiment I feel. Thanks.

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MattP
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Wow. The Cameron report, huh? That report has been thoroughly trashed for it's ridiculous methodological flaws.

quote:
The authors should know, and as PhD's they presumably do, that this report has little to do with science. It is hard to escape the idea that non-scientific motifs have driven the authors to make this report public. The methodological flaws are of such a grave nature that no decent peer-reviewed scientific journal should let it pass for publication.

As a measure of gay individuals' average 'life expectancy at birth', Cameron and Cameron gathered information about age at death from obituaries for homosexual people in the U.S., and they obtained Scandinavian data regarding the average age at death among homosexually partnered persons who died within a period of up to 14 years after the introduction of laws on homosexual partnerships.

Due in part to reports like the present homosexual persons remain subject to stigmatization. The majority of homosexual people, even in comparatively liberal countries like Denmark, are not open about their sexuality in public. Particularly older homosexuals who grew up in periods when their sexuality was either a crime or a psychiatric diagnosis tend to remain silent about their homosexuality in public. Therefore, the higher prevalence of self-reported homo/bisexual experiences and feelings in younger than older age groups most likely reflects that young gays and bisexuals are less hesitant than older ones to provide honest answers in sex surveys.

The majority of homosexual individuals in the report by Cameron and Cameron were presumably open about their same-sex preferences. The groups studied comprised homosexuals who had entered registered partnerships in Denmark or Norway, and homosexuals in the U.S. whose relatives considered homosexuality to be such an integrated part of their deceased loved ones' personalities that they felt it natural to mention in the publicly available obituary. Since, as noted, age is a strong determinant of openness about homosexuality, the study groups of deceased homosexuals in Cameron and Cameron's report were severely skewed towards younger people. Consequently, the much younger average age at death of these openly homosexual people as compared with the average age at death in the unselected general population tells nothing about possible differences between life expectancies in gays and non-gays in general. All it reflects is the skewed age distribution towards younger people among those who are openly homosexual.

To further illustrate Cameron and Cameron's methodological blunder, imagine a country that sets up a new register to record all cases of sexual harassment against women. After 14 years of operation the register is contacted by an advocacy group who gets access to the data to examine how sexual harassment influences women's life expectancy. Among those women who died during the maximum of 14 years of follow-up, few women will have died after the age of 50, simply because most sexual harassment cases occurred among young women. Using the same logic and methods as Cameron and Cameron, this advocacy group could arrive at the conclusion that sexual harassment reduces women's 'life expectancy' by 30 years or more. Needless to say, this would be as pure nonsense as the conclusion reached by Cameron and Cameron that heterosexuals outlive gays by 22-25 years.

http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/04/13/only-the-gay-die-young-part-2-danish-epidemiologist-reviews-the-cameron-study/
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Jesse
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Wow. There was an AIDS epidemic in the Gay community in the 80's and 90's.

Welcome to Ornery, where the learning never stops.

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NSCutler
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Why would Cameron et al. publish an epidemiology study in Psychology Reports? It's almost like they didn't want their study to undergo peer review.
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Hitoshi
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quote:
Originally posted by AKA JB:
Does homosexual activity shorten life?
[...]
Thank God.

There there, do what you need to to make yourself feel superior. We know you need the attention.
quote:
But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust.
I want to either laugh or sigh and slap my head at this.
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JohnLocke
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Thank God for what?

For the IDEA that homosexuality is a self-destructive force and those who partake in it shall meet their just end, the sooner the better?

...

With apologies to any who don't know the context: Were you by any chance raped by a gay black man?

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Richard Dey
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JB:

The Family Life Institute is also the group that promoted the works of Drs Bieber and Socarides -- who promoted homophobia to shorten the lifespans of homosexuals.

Here are some of FLI's "sponsors":

TherapyAnywhere.com . Life can get better. Now! Even on Sunday at 11 A.M.

www.Therapyanywhere.com . Atlanta Group Therapy
Couples, Family, Individual and Child Counseling Services. Call Us! We don't come cheap!

www.karunacounseling.com Whole-Earth counseling.

www.nationalmarriage.com Christian Marriage Counseling at the National Institute of Marriage No bias here!

www.betsybiggers.com Asheville Therapist Psychotherapy for Adults, Children and Couples. Call for Appointments! Please have your insurance coverage handy!

www.capella-degrees.com Online Counseling Degrees
Earn a M.S. or Ph.D. in Counseling. Classes begin monthly. Start today!

www.savingmymarriagenow.com How to Save Your Marriage Even if you've lost all hope and you're the only one who will try. We'll turn your hubby straight! at your expense!

MarriageMax.com Fix Your Marriage Marriage Counseling Alternative. Get Free Advice Immediately. Not good advice, but advice.

www.ArgosyU.edu Family Counseling Degrees Argosy University Counseling Program - Learn More Today! U 2 can b an xpert just like on TV!

FamilyLifeCredit.org Family Life Credit Serv
Serving You For Over 20 Years Apply Online Now or Call Today Did your hubby blow your credit at Bloomingdale's?

www.BoulderTherapist.com Divorce Prevention
Relationship & Marriage Counseling Barry Erdman, LCSW, DCSW We'll fix him!

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Funean
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quote:
But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust.
I should be so lucky. [Roll Eyes]
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AKA JB
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
I remember when a gay friend of my mothers was dying of aids many years ago and his partner spent every waking minute at his bedside, taking care of his rapidly failing body.

That is the least he should do, since he probably infected him with aids to begin with while they tried to impregnate each others fecal matter.
[LOL]

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MattP
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Wow JB. You're an evil bastard. How 'bout that.
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0Megabyte
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AKA JB:

Go to Hell.

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0Megabyte
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Let me make this clear: My cousin Frank died during those periods, late 80's early 90's, of AIDS. Yeah, he was gay.

You know what? It may be inappropriate of me to tell JB that, but to insult others like him in particular and all of them including my cousin in particular, is something I cannot accept as a valid statement on his own part.

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DaveS
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I had a dog when I was a kid. He was just a stray mutt who wandered in that we kept out of pity. We named him Fudd, because he wasn't well trained and we always thought he had lived with people who didn't care about him. Eventually he got old and tired and we had to put him down. My folks took care of it, and I got over it pretty quickly. JB reminds me of that dog.
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DonaldD
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MattP - you say that as if you're surprised.

Time to set phasers to shun...

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
"But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust."

Without reading anymore then that, I would counter that, if he's defining desire in any reasonable way, then the same could be said of heterosexual desire.

Sure. The whole "homosexual/heterosexual" identity division demeans all monogamous people. I've said before that I find it tremendously insulting to have my relationship with my wife lumped in a term with the activities of swingers and "hetero" pornographers.

quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
We believe, under the influence of homosexuality, that lust is not just acceptable, but a virtue. But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust.
That quote goes a long way to showing how out of touch he is. I remember when a gay friend of my mothers was dying of aids many years ago and his partner spent every waking minute at his bedside, taking care of his rapidly failing body. There was no lust there, just tender love.
He didn't say that all homosexual love is "lust." He said that homosexual "desire" is lust.

For millenia there have been people who were attracted to others of the same sex, but it's only recently that we've started classifying people as homosexual/heterosexual as part of what we see as their basic *identity.* I think that focusing your whole identity as a person on the plug and play object of your desires is unhealthy. That's a comment about the language, the terms we use, and about the world view and mindset embodied by that language. It's not an attack on people whose desires are different than ours.

I'll also point out that at no point in the article does he refer to himself as "ex-gay." I wonder if he's associated with some other folks I know, who emphasize terms like "sex sex attraction" as a trait while rejecting "gay" as identity.

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Everard
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"but it's only recently that we've started classifying people as homosexual/heterosexual as part of what we see as their basic *identity.* I think that focusing your whole identity as a person on the plug and play object of your desires is unhealthy. "

Logical consistency check.

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MattP
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quote:
He said that homosexual "desire" is lust.
It seemed to me that he was saying there was nothing to homosexuality, period, beyond lust. I can't think of a way of parsing his comment that differentiates homosexuality from heterosexuality with regard to desire, lust, or love.
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Pete at Home
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[speechless]

JB, what happened to you, man? Do you have no concience of human sympathy at all? Do you believe in the God that you just thanked, or is that just empty noise on your lips?

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Everard
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I realize you haven't been around to see JB's posts, but... well, to quote scrubs... "He's a bastard coated bastard with bastard filling."
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
He said that homosexual "desire" is lust.
It seemed to me that he was saying there was nothing to homosexuality, period, beyond lust. I can't think of a way of parsing his comment that differentiates homosexuality from heterosexuality with regard to desire, lust, or love.
You say that as if I hadn't just agreed with you.

"Heterosexuality" as a term was derived after the idea of "homosexuality." He seems to think that it's a defective concept and world-view, and yes, classifying persons as "heterosexual" partakes of the same defect.

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Pete at Home
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If he's part of the whole Evergreen group, as I suspect from reading what he said, it would not be accurate to refer him as "ex-gay," since that group officially holds that therapies to "cure" people of being gay are inneffective, and that same-sex desire is something they'll always have to deal with. I saw an interesting documentary about them on YouTube about 6 months ago ... and interestingly, going along with one of my tentative theories, they promote physical affection between members of the same sex, but not sexual acts. Amusingly, a gay friend of mine who saw the video told me that he felt profoundly uncomfortable watching all those guys hugging each other. [Big Grin]
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MattP
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quote:
You say that as if I hadn't just agreed with you.
It wasn't clear from your response, as you began by differentiating between the terms he used and the terms I used.

My bisexual friends would say we're all too obsessed with the physical form in which our companions present themselves.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
I realize you haven't been around to see JB's posts, but... well, to quote scrubs... "He's a bastard coated bastard with bastard filling."

I've read his racist posts, and in the past, I argued not to ban him, since it's good exercise to rebutt bad logic, and that's mostly what he had in his white supremacist postings: very bad and easily rebuttable logical arguments.

If he'd offered the stats above as argument that homosexuality was "unhealthy", it would be easy to rebutt him by pointing out that rejection and persecution of homosexuality was bound to account for a stressful, shortened lifespan, and that lack of recognition or support for LTSSRs was also preventing many gays from easing into a more healthy, i.e. monogamous, lifestyle. As you know, that's why why I support SSUs.

But by adding that "thank God" bit, he's moved the discussion entirely out of logic. I don't think that there is any reasonable or civil response to that sort of sadistic grave-dancing. If this is what he's doing these days, then I withdraw my earlier arguments for not banning the guy.

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AKA JB
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The top six U.S. male serial killers were all homosexual:

• Donald Harvey claimed 37 victims in Kentucky;

• John Wayne Gacy raped and killed 33 boys in Chicago, burying them under his house and in his yard;

• Patrick Kearney accounted for 32, cutting his victims into small pieces after sex and leaving them in trash bags along the Los Angeles freeways;

• Bruce Davis molested and killed 27 young men and boys in Illinois;

• A gay sex-murder-torture ring (Corll-Henley-Brooks) sent 27 Texas men and boys to their grave; and

• Juan Corona was convicted of murdering 25 migrant workers (he "made love" with their corpses).

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
You say that as if I hadn't just agreed with you.
It wasn't clear from your response, as you began by differentiating between the terms he used and the terms I used.
To try to be more clear, I agree with your words, but I'm not certain that what you mean by those words is what I mean by those words, or what I think that the author means by those words. Unfortunately we aren't speaking face to face, so you can't hear my tone, so I hope you're not taking any of this as a put down. I think that your misunderstanding is completely reasonable, because the whole language surrounding "homosexuality" constrains what you can say about the subject, and when someone deviates from established dogma, there simply isn't any language to make clear what they are saying.

When the author says stuff like this:
quote:
It became clear to me, as I really thought about it – and really prayed about it – that homosexuality prevents us from finding our true self within. We cannot see the truth when we're blinded by homosexuality.

We believe, under the influence of homosexuality, that lust is not just acceptable, but a virtue. But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust. ... In my experience, "coming out" from under the influence of the homosexual mindset was the most liberating, beautiful and astonishing thing I've ever experienced in my entire life.

That it's clear that the "influence of homosexuality" that he's talking about, isn't the influence of being attracted to other men, but rather the influence of how he's been taught to think about that attraction. He's talking about the culturally constried idea of homosexuality, not about actual desire for someone of the same sex.

I'm not saying I agree with this guy. For one thing, I strongly resist terms like "homosexual agenda," which I think do as much as anything to blind and suffocate any rational discussion of this and other topics. I also abhor his excessive value on "normality." Just trying to understand the different points of view on this topic.

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OrneryMod
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I am forced to remind everyone that name-calling is against the rules.

Expresssing personal opinions is not, however widely those opinions are regarded as vile.

JB, please remember that at any time I can decide that you are being deliberately provocative in order to promote discord and bad behavior.

In fact, I can, willy-nilly, ban anybody from this forum, for any reason I see fit.

Please do not test my personal sense of honor.

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DonaldD
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The top six U.S. male serial killers were all white:

• Donald Harvey claimed 37 victims in Kentucky;

• John Wayne Gacy raped and killed 33 boys in Chicago, burying them under his house and in his yard;

• Patrick Kearney accounted for 32, cutting his victims into small pieces after sex and leaving them in trash bags along the Los Angeles freeways;

• Bruce Davis molested and killed 27 young men and boys in Illinois;

• A gay sex-murder-torture ring (Corll-Henley-Brooks) sent 27 Texas men and boys to their grave; and

• Juan Corona was convicted of murdering 25 migrant workers (he "made love" with their corpses).

BTW, JB you really should provide a source when you copy and paste someone's words verbatim. Yes, that is the least of your faults, but you gotta start somewhere

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Jordan
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It's interesting that this came up, because I made a remarkable and somewhat similar discovery last month. (…No, I'm not talking about myself. [Big Grin] )

I recently added an old friend on Facebook. This particular fellow was a card-carrying, Pride-attending, boyfriend-having homosexual when I knew him three years ago, and wasn't afraid to say so. So I have a look at his profile. Here are some of my surprising observations, in roughly the order I made them at the time:
  • He's married to a girl. Some people on Facebook, including myself, have filled this field in as a joke, but she shares his last name. And he doesn't have any sisters.
  • The "Interested in" field is missing. (Most people use that field to indicate their sexual preference*.)
  • He recently added some ultrasound scans to his photo album.
  • There appears to be an album of wedding pictures from a few months ago. With him as the groom.

Some of us, his ex- included, were a little surprised, to say the least! Regardless, it is something to be happy about. He was very confused a few years ago, because he found himself falling in love with a girl with a depth of feeling which surprised him, and was totally at odds with his own assessment of his sexuality. At the time I counselled him to be careful and take his time, lest both of them get hurt if he acted hastily. It looks like he did, and things have worked out wonderfully for him.


* Except for our happily married, heterosexual chaplain, who (justifiably) decided that it was a silly thing to ask for and instead put down that he was interested in both men and women.

[ July 09, 2007, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Jordan ]

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Jordan
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quote:
Michael Glatze:
[T]here is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust.

The only issue with this sentence is the ambiguity of the word "desire". One hopes that any couple, heterosexual or homosexual, would find each other sexually desirable. So this statement is strictly correct, absent any implication that:
  1. homosexual desire is exclusively based on lust;
  2. lust is a defining characteristic of homosexual desire alone.
Given that it's virtually a tautology for homosexual and heterosexual desire alike (assuming a reasonable definition of "desire"), I wonder what his rationale for pointing it out was?
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Jordan
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quote:
Matt:
I can't think of a way of parsing his comment that differentiates homosexuality from heterosexuality with regard to desire, lust, or love.

*grumble* I hate fast-moving threads…
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Jordan
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quote:
JB:
The top six U.S. male serial killers were all homosexual[…]

In fact, I'm choosing my next victim right now! [Smile]
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PanHeraclitean
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Is lust bad?
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