Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » How Conservative think tanks have been spinning you to death

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: How Conservative think tanks have been spinning you to death
WeAreAllJust LooseChange
Member
Member # 3411

 - posted      Profile for WeAreAllJust LooseChange         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wish I had the transcript of the whole video…

Professor George Lakoff discusses his book "Whose Freedom?: The Battle over America's Most Important Idea" as a part of the Authors@Google series

Video Here

In general he explains how the metaphors like War on Terror, Iraq War, Illegal Immigration, Tax Relief, Free Markets and others are used by Conservative think tanks to change your world view in a specific direction for the last 40 years. They do this by placing all issues which we in a specific linguistic framework, viewed through the "Strict Father Family" point of view (as opposed to the "Nurturing Parent Family" model).

I heard his explanation on “Framing the Dialogue” first as apart of one of alternativeradio.org programs. I do believe he is correct in his understanding on how linguistics and Mass Media are able to put progressive thinking in US on the defense.

If you want to find a better understanding for the world around you and how Conservative Think Tanks have been spinning you to death – checkout the above video.

What has happened recently is that Progressive think tanks are finding a way to fight back (George Lakeoff is a member of the Rockridge Institute, one of the few Progressive think tanks).
The recent ad by Move-On.org (General BetrayUs) proves that “re-framing the debate” is EXACTLY what is needed to get to better understanding about the issues most of us care about.
You’ll hear the word betrayal more and more, because the truth should be pointed out bluntly, especially when it is of such significance as lying to a nation to go to war.

Posts: 174 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LoneSnark
Member
Member # 2005

 - posted      Profile for LoneSnark   Email LoneSnark   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, because everything ever done by conservative think tanks was lying to get the nation into the Iraq War. Way to go, the republicrats would be proud to see your implicit acceptance of tribal us verse them conflict. All conservative ideas are evil, so you must support the liberals without question. Bravo.
Posts: 592 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
winkey151
Member
Member # 2910

 - posted      Profile for winkey151   Email winkey151   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Are you saying that the liberals don't do that?
Posts: 865 | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

It seems to me that a significant portion of the population is so stupid that they think rhyme is wit, and that it logically follows that anything they consider witty must be true.

"Bush Lied, People Died"

"God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WarrsawPact
Member
Member # 1275

 - posted      Profile for WarrsawPact   Email WarrsawPact   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I watched for 26 minutes and 22 seconds. He didn't even deserve that much attention. The second he starts talking politics, his ideas have about the same explanatory power as Freud's ideas have about the brain: as much as you want them to.

He splits the country into "conservative" and "liberal" without batting an eye. He explains any crossover by saying we hold both ideas in this culture.

Then he goes on to talk about the ways each side frames each issue... and it was completely ridiculous. The first test of comprehension is whether you can faithfully represent the positions of the other side, and he can't. He just spouts glittering generalities. When he started talking about the foreign policies of each side, I had to shut him off; it became absolutely ridiculous to anyone who has historical knowledge going back one century.

He's a hack.

Posts: 7500 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WeAreAllJust LooseChange
Member
Member # 3411

 - posted      Profile for WeAreAllJust LooseChange         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Winkey - no,

I'm saying that conservatives have been pouring more money into this and have been in general more successful in this type of activity till now.

LoneSnark - I DO believe that
- War on terror is nonsense metaphor in itself
- War on Iraq was wrong (should've been diplomacy and stimulation of regime change through other means) and it ended in 2003. From there it is occupation (which invokes quite different images, right?)
- Illegal Immigration does not mean that children and their parents should be locked in prison camps until their fate is determined
- Tax relief?

Well I'll quote:
"Conservatives Know about Framing
On the day that George W. Bush took office, the words tax relief started appearing in White House communiqués to the press and in official speeches and reports by conservatives. Let us look in detail at the framing evoked by this term.

The word relief evokes a frame in which there is a blameless Afflicted Person who we identify with and who has some Affliction, some pain or harm that is imposed by some external Cause-of-pain. Relief is the taking away of the pain or harm, and it is brought about by some Reliever-of-pain.

The Relief frame is an instance of a more general Rescue scenario, in which there a Hero (The Reliever-of-pain), a Victim (the Afflicted), a Crime (the Affliction), A Villain (the Cause-of-affliction), and a Rescue (the Pain Relief). The Hero is inherently good, the Villain is evil, and the Victim after the Rescue owes gratitude to the Hero.

The term tax relief evokes all of this and more. Taxes, in this phrase, are the Affliction (the Crime), proponents of taxes are the Causes-of Affliction (the Villains), the taxpayer is the Afflicted Victim, and the proponents of "tax relief" are the Heroes who deserve the taxpayers' gratitude.

Every time the phrase tax relief is used and heard or read by millions of people, the more this view of taxation as an affliction and conservatives as heroes gets reinforced. "
---end quote----

- Free Market?
The Free Market is what gave the world the crisis of 1930.
As one of the most successful financial money manager in the world till now have put it - free markets tend away from equilibrium, not towards it as the prevailing economic theory teaches.
Read Alchemy of Finance to understand some more on this topic.

In general though I'm not sure where do you get the notion that all conservative ideas are evil.
Let's reframe that from the "Nurturing Parent model" - I do believe that a lot of conservative ideas are confused for what they really are.

Watch the video - it is not brain washing - it is mind opening. Sleep on the thought that what we are constantly told in the media may actually be changing your perspective.

Posts: 174 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WarrsawPact
Member
Member # 1275

 - posted      Profile for WarrsawPact   Email WarrsawPact   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
- Free Market?
The Free Market is what gave the world the crisis of 1930.

Hilarious! Like the US was laissez faire in 1930!

Don't suppose it had anything to do with a huge increase in tariffs and a drastic change in the money supply... no, not that.

Posts: 7500 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daruma28
Member
Member # 1388

 - posted      Profile for Daruma28   Email Daruma28   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WAAJLC - Conservative Think Tanks Spin? Nooooooo....

Seriously, without watching the vid, but just reading what your wrote, I'm going to say "OF COURSE."

That is all politics is in this day and age of soundbytes.

The funny thing, though, is how you are implicitly hanging this solely on conservative think tanks and Republican Politicians (can't say conservative, because George Bush is no conservative), when in fact the left and the right use the exact same tactics to push their agenda.

Since you've posted an entire thread dedicated to the right wing spin on such phrases as "tax relief" and "free market" let's take a look at the left wing versions of the same propaganda techniques. If your goal is to truly open eyes to this, than you should be aware of the practitioners of both the side you agree with, and the side you disagree with.

Here are some phrases that are "spun" to shift the debate and subconsciously frame it to be politically advantageous to your political persuasion:

"Pro-Choice" Frames the idea into whether or not a woman should have the right to suck her baby from her womb down the drain of a sink into an issue of "freedom" rather than focusing on the procedure iteself.

"Tax Cuts for the Rich" - Here's a doozy, meant to make an emotional appeal to people; one used to incite envy in the middle and lower classes, and pit one citizen versus the other to support socialist tax policies.

I could go on, but if you are looking at this objectively, and not just defaulting to your own bias, you can plainly see that conservatives and liberals are engaged in the same behavior to "frame the debate" to their own advantage.

This is not new, nor is it really nefarious.

The game of electioneering politics, afterall, is to manipulate the masses to support your own goals.

And for the majority of people, it is very effective.

Posts: 7543 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Paladine
Member
Member # 1932

 - posted      Profile for Paladine   Email Paladine   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To be thick as a brick.

(Been listening to some Tull today, if my previous post didn't give it away [Wink] )

Posts: 3235 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WeAreAllJust LooseChange
Member
Member # 3411

 - posted      Profile for WeAreAllJust LooseChange         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Daruma,
-----
"Pro-Choice" Frames the idea into whether or not a woman should have the right to suck her baby from her womb down the drain of a sink into an issue of "freedom" rather than focusing on the procedure iteself.
------

"suck her baby down the drain" is a frame in itself.
You are aware that the "baby" you are talking about fits on the tip of a pin, right?
So what about human rights for this baby then?
Let's protect it's right against cruel punishment by not allowing any mother to smoke - EVER!
Same for drinking alcohol, dancing, jumping, going to scarry movies, use ANY medications, etc. while pregnant!!!
Did the child give his or hers consent?

But once you are brainwashed in a concept (that abortion is chucking babies down the drain) you don't stop for a moment to think about this, right?

[ September 21, 2007, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: WeAreAllJust LooseChange ]

Posts: 174 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WeAreAllJust LooseChange
Member
Member # 3411

 - posted      Profile for WeAreAllJust LooseChange         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WarsawPact - Free market is anything but free.
Without the regulation and oversite the corporate scandals lik the one of Enron will be daily occurance.

I wish we could see Iraq 15 years down the road going int he steps of Chile and other Latin America countries which regimes could sustain such "free market" practices only through dictatorships, supported by US.

Same is valid for the other side - that pure "socialist" dictatorships where you have nationalization of all property (as the ultimate communal goal) were only supported by cruel repression by their dictators.
The truth is in the middle - where the market always goes after a Boom/Bust sequence on the stock or currency or whatever "free" market.
The Market always goes towards more regulation, and you will still wait to see the end of the subprime mortgage bust by the end of the year or next. I personaly don't think that one is over - you'll see more regulation coming out of it, not less.

Posts: 174 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WarrsawPact
Member
Member # 1275

 - posted      Profile for WarrsawPact   Email WarrsawPact   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
RANT MODE!

Seriously. The guy rips on the "war on terror" but not the "war on poverty." He rips on "tax relief" but not "relief for the poor"?

How about the very word he uses to describe his favored policies, "progressive"? Doesn't matter that everyone is for progress as they themselves define progress. They'll just be taking that word, now.
How about calling all the think tanks he disagrees with "conservative," when several of the biggest ones (Cato, Reason) go out of their way to say they're not conservative?

Competing in an open market? That's "strictness" and "discipline", nothing to do with innovation or learned skill or risk-taking.

How about "assistance" and "affordable" and "access" instead of "subsidy" and "price controls"?
How about "creating jobs" instead of "makework"?
How about "public servant"? "Social worker"?
And instead of being "state" or "government" or "tax-funded", it's "public" or "universal".

And that "benefit" is "free", see?

It's not a tax hike, it's fiscal responsibility.

And they're not "pro-life" or even "anti-abortion", they're "anti-choice," and they're against a "woman's right to choose."
Look up <<abortion framing responsibility>> in your favorite search engine. No, the left hasn't been doing THAT for years, dearie no.

Heck, we got all kinds of new rights, too! A right to internet access. A right to free health care. A right to a free education.

FDR's "four freedoms" weren't a matter of framing, either, were they?

And only conservatives are guilty of framing in foreign policy. Certainly a progressive, like Woodrow Wilson, wouldn't dirty his hands with such things.
Or Bill Clinton. "Democratic enlargement" anyone? And that's not genocide, those are "acts of genocide," which don't amount to the same thing, so we don't have to get involved.

Those Communist insurgents are "freedom fighters," at worst "revolutionaries".

None of that is framing, no sir. The progressives' hands have been positively clean, and it's time to start fighting dirty. Only those wingnut Rethuglicans do that, like Chimpy McBush.itlerburton.

Hypocrite.

[ September 21, 2007, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]

Posts: 7500 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daruma28
Member
Member # 1388

 - posted      Profile for Daruma28   Email Daruma28   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WeAreAllJust LooseChange:
Daruma,
-----
"Pro-Choice" Frames the idea into whether or not a woman should have the right to suck her baby from her womb down the drain of a sink into an issue of "freedom" rather than focusing on the procedure iteself.
------

"suck her baby down the drain" is a frame in itself.
You are aware that the "baby" you are talking about fits on the tip of a pin, right?
So what about human rights for this baby then?
Let's protect it's right against cruel punishment by not allowing any mother to smoke - EVER!
Same for drinking alcohol, dancing, jumping, going to scarry movies, use ANY medications, etc. while pregnant!!!
Did the child give his or hers consent?

But once you are brainwashed in a concept (that abortion is chucking babies down the drain) you don't stop for a moment to think about this, right?

I guess my point went right over your head...it certainly was not to point to abortion, but to demonstrate how both sides frame the debate to sway attitudes to view their side favorably.

But since you are absolutely bought and sold on "your sides" point of view, you have missed the forest for the tree.

Nevermind.

Posts: 7543 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WarrsawPact
Member
Member # 1275

 - posted      Profile for WarrsawPact   Email WarrsawPact   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
LooseChange - You must be some kind of straw man sent here to give me target practice.
quote:
Free market is anything but free.
Without the regulation and oversite the corporate scandals lik the one of Enron will be daily occurance.

Ahhh, oversight! That's not framing either.

How 'bout this: I tell you that I support a government that minimizes coercion and fraud, and that this creates a free market. You respond...

Posts: 7500 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WarrsawPact
Member
Member # 1275

 - posted      Profile for WarrsawPact   Email WarrsawPact   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
both sides frame the debate to sway attitudes to view their side favorably.
Exactly, Daruma.
Posts: 7500 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidB
Member
Member # 3016

 - posted      Profile for KidB   Email KidB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I actually agree with Daruma and WP. I'm not anti-Lakoff per se, but I can't get behind the notion, shared by some liberals, that he has broken the political Da Vinci Code and shown us the light and the way.

Screw it. I hate politics. Where's the beer?

Posts: 1960 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonaldD
Member
Member # 1052

 - posted      Profile for DonaldD   Email DonaldD   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think LooseChange and Straygaldwyr might be those two half white/half dark guys from the 1960's Star Trek series...
Posts: 10751 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nah. Loose is just an overzealous "team player". Stray actually has ideas. Very, very scary ones.
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LoneSnark
Member
Member # 2005

 - posted      Profile for LoneSnark   Email LoneSnark   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I personaly don't think that one is over - you'll see more regulation coming out of it, not less.
Of course, that is how governments operate. They latch on to, or in some cases purpetrate, private crises and elevate them to national crises for the purpose of expanding their own power. Sure, immediately afterwards everyone realizes that the government "fix" is far worse than the disease, but the government isn't going to give up its new-found powers without a fight, so people just come to live with it.

Like the founder said, it is the natural state of things for liberty to yield and government to expand.

Posts: 592 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WeAreAllJust LooseChange
Member
Member # 3411

 - posted      Profile for WeAreAllJust LooseChange         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WarsawPact - I wish I had the time to finish this discussion to answer on all the points you mention.
I do agree and I mentioned it, that the Democratic Party (and think tanks) has been trying to re-frame the dialogue in favor of their policies the same way the Conservative Think Tanks do.
Who's winning - I think the message from the mass media is pretty clear on this.
Ask yourself how many times you have heard in the mass media the frames you mention, and how many times you have heard the frames I mention - and you'll answer yourself.

I'll give an example why I think what is happening is wrong (again - my personal opinion - obviously not quite welcomed in these circles)

Let's examine 2 frames:

tax relief - promoting tax measures which give proportionally bigger benefit to rich people and corporations, then to your 40K/y Joe Average

compared to:

relief for the poor - promoting tax measures which give proportionally bigger benefit to poor people, compared to our 40K/year Joe Average

Now which statement is more accurate? Now which one will Joe Average support?

I've heard cases where people with 25K/year incomes have complained how high their taxes were, and that they will vote for a candidate who promised to give them "tax relief"! They weren't paying any income taxes in the first place! Sure there were other forms of taxes they were paying - but again - showing how one can be persuaded by mass media and Conservative think tanks which come up with these slogans to vote against their self interest.

Truth is - I don't like taxes no better than Joe Average. Every cent I spend on it at the end of the year is like robbing me of my hard earned money. But in the end what my conscience dictates is that there are some services which we all should be able to receive because that's what makes us humans living in a society. Society - and Not just a bunch of self-interest-chasing monkey's who want to have babies from all the females they like in their group and beat on other males and take their food because they are stronger and they can and until they grow old and die at the hands of some younger, stronger male.
Sure - this kind of behavior provided for evolution of the species, but also provides for lousy society if you are not the alpha male.

Daruma - after re-reading your posting I agree that I took it out of context. Don’t expect politicians to ever say that, though [Smile]

Posts: 174 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WarrsawPact
Member
Member # 1275

 - posted      Profile for WarrsawPact   Email WarrsawPact   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
LooseChange -
quote:
WarsawPact - I wish I had the time to finish this discussion to answer on all the points you mention.
I know the feeling.
quote:
I do agree and I mentioned it, that the Democratic Party (and think tanks) has been trying to re-frame the dialogue in favor of their policies the same way the Conservative Think Tanks do.
Who's winning - I think the message from the mass media is pretty clear on this.
Ask yourself how many times you have heard in the mass media the frames you mention, and how many times you have heard the frames I mention - and you'll answer yourself.

First, I say again that not all those think tanks are "Conservative." For perhaps the most prominent example, read the Cato Institute's "About Us" section and especially read the section, "How to Label Cato."

Second, I think I already made it clear that the Left has done a fine job at framing for a very, very long time. It took decades out of power for the conservative-libertarian coalition to develop whatever intellectual energy they have now. And the Left has stopped efforts at framing, so this isn't some fresh new thing.

And your implied argument that conservative frames are dominant in the media today only speaks to confirmation bias: if you're looking for opposition frames, you'll typically notice them more often than you'll notice frames you already agree with.
I don't watch TV much, but from my reading, I think that Democrat frames are more dominant than Republican frames, and people are very cynical about many Republican frames; note that the "War on Terror" term has been debated since its creation, even by those on the Right.
quote:
Let's examine 2 frames:

tax relief - promoting tax measures which give proportionally bigger benefit to rich people and corporations, then to your 40K/y Joe Average

compared to:

relief for the poor - promoting tax measures which give proportionally bigger benefit to poor people, compared to our 40K/year Joe Average

Now which statement is more accurate? Now which one will Joe Average support?

Democrats can't have it both ways: either a unit of income means proportionally more to poorer people than to richer people, or it doesn't. The Bush tax cuts may have cut more absolutely from payments by the rich, but I don't see how you can argue they helped the rich proportionally. Proportional to what? Their total wealth? Don't think so.

Joe Average could mean a lot of things. Joe Average may expect that his income will rise over the course of his life, like it does for most people. Ever try controlling for age when discussing income/wealth inequality?

For that reason and for other reasons, perhaps Joe disagrees with you on what is in his self-interest, and you shouldn't try to confidently tell him what is in his self-interest. Don't assume that he shares your ideas on that matter.
quote:
I've heard cases where people with 25K/year incomes have complained how high their taxes were, and that they will vote for a candidate who promised to give them "tax relief"! They weren't paying any income taxes in the first place!
As someone who was recently making that kind of money, I can tell you, we are paying income tax. Last year was the first year since I turned 16 that I didn't pay income tax, and that was because I didn't work nearly as much as in previous years.
quote:
Truth is - I don't like taxes no better than Joe Average. Every cent I spend on it at the end of the year is like robbing me of my hard earned money. But in the end what my conscience dictates is that there are some services which we all should be able to receive because that's what makes us humans living in a society.
It's not "like" robbery. It is robbery; it's taking money from you whether you like it or not, paying for things to which you would not have personally consented.

And no, services provided through coercion is not "what makes us humans living in a society."

Posts: 7500 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TaoJeannes
Member
Member # 1490

 - posted      Profile for TaoJeannes   Email TaoJeannes       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

It seems to me that a significant portion of the population is so stupid that they think rhyme is wit, and that it logically follows that anything they consider witty must be true.

"Bush Lied, People Died"

"God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"

Quoted from "How to Be Persuasive" by Wes Bowyer and Samuel Stoddard:

Rhymes

No persuasive argument would be complete without a little rhyming. Not only does it make you sound clever, but, when used correctly, it can make your opponent sound ignorant. To employ this amazing persuasive tool, you take one of your opponent's points and make up a nonsensical rhyming word to go with it. This tactic has no known refutation.

You: "There are no people on this planet that do not believe in democracy."

Opponent: "Yes there are. They're called communists."

You: "Communists schmommunists!"

Opponent: "..."

Posts: 279 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daruma28
Member
Member # 1388

 - posted      Profile for Daruma28   Email Daruma28   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by KidB:
I actually agree with Daruma and WP. I'm not anti-Lakoff per se, but I can't get behind the notion, shared by some liberals, that he has broken the political Da Vinci Code and shown us the light and the way.

Screw it. I hate politics. Where's the beer?

As of late, I've REALLY been feeling like this too.

Where it not for Ron Paul's Candidacy, I would be in a state of absolute apathy towards politics right now.

Screw it...I'll have a beer too. [Exploding]

Posts: 7543 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1