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Author Topic: Burma - nobody (else) on Ornery cares?
WeAreAllJust LooseChange
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After almost a week of protests and clashes of protestors trying to peacefully overturn a military regime - not a single word about this on Ornery?
Shame! [Confused]

So let's see what you think should be the outcome of the latest protests in Burma against the military dictatorship?

(For those who have been living in a cave the last week and know nothing about the case -
http://voanews.com/english/2007-09-28-voa13.cfm
or Google News for Burma )

For those skeptic that there is anything wrong going on in Burma - see satellite images of villages disappearing - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21032458/

My opinion?
US (and the rest of the world) should prevent any and all companies from doing any business in Burma (other than humanitarian aid, etc.) until the government of Burma sets a date for nation-wide elections.
China will be opposed of course, unfortunately.
US Tourists should be discouraged by the US state dept. from visiting the country.
Forgot to mention that we should hit where it hurts them most - the financial resources of the military elite as well, as bare talks will not be enough.

What’s your solution to this crisis?

The Change

[ September 28, 2007, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: WeAreAllJust LooseChange ]

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Richard Dey
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Nope. No homos in Burma. No homos? No culture.
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G2
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I had a big thing written up about Myanmar I was gonna post but now Burma too? Holy crap! I mean seriously, the whole far east must be in flames.

The G2

[ September 28, 2007, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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Dave at Work
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Change,

I don't know about others but I have been following the events. I also dislike starting threads on Ornery so I have been waiting for someone else to bring it up. Thanks for that by the way.

I don't have a solution. If this was back in 2003, I would have been gung-ho for us to send in troops to stop the human rights violations, restore order, and supervise a change in government to one which respects the human and civil rights of its people. Since then, it has become obvious to me that these goals can look like imperialism and nation building to many people and governments in the world. If we were to do so, even if there are no other motivations whatsoever, we would be accused of imperialism for doing so. The mere fact that the Bush administration is in charge would be enough for the action to be condemned by a number of governments and organizations. Perhaps an international coalition, oh wait, that wouldn't help either if the Bush administration were a part of it. Perhaps we can appeal to China to exert some influence on their neighbor, but then we might be be accused of encouraging other powerful nations to do in Burma what we are accused of doing in Iraq.

Okay, I will stop grousing now.

In all seriousness, while I admire nonviolent protest as a means to effect change in government policy, it doesn't work so well when the government doesn't respect human rights and doesn't care about morals in any sense of the word. One reason that Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. had success in their endeavors was because the governments they were protesting against did believe in human rights and civil rights and had a sense of right and wrong even though it sometimes has to be coaxed out. The government of Burma appears to lack these qualities.

That leaves removal of government by force as the viable option here, whether that is effected from within by revolutionaries or from without by other governments. I'll be happy to hear other ideas, but I haven't thought of any myself yet. And before someone suggests economic sanctions I would remind people to look at our history with such sanctions.

I have to get back to work but I'll check back on the thread later.

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Dave at Work
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Hey G2, don't forget that we don't recognize the change of name from Burma to Myanmar. At least we don't in the U.S. or the U.K., though I understand that the U.N. has accepted the name change.

Doh! Forgot the smiley. [Smile]

[ September 28, 2007, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Dave at Work ]

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Jesse
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You understand that Governments are made up of people, and that when people stop complying, Governments fall, right?

No homos in Burma. Where do you come up with this stuff, Mr. Dey?

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Daruma28
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Kudos WeAreLooseChange!!!!

By virtue of starting a thread on a semi-obscure, esoteric-based, strife-ridden internet forum for political debate, you have now demonstrated that YOU CARE!

I am so guilt ridden and ashamed that I have been so thoughtless and cold-hearted to not start a post about this tragedy!

Oh the humanity!

Thanks for showing us heartless bastards the way!

Time to make threads about starving children in Argentina and obese eskimos on welfare to PROVE THAT I CARE! [LOL]

[ September 28, 2007, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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TommySama
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It's too bad. I work with a few guys who fled from Burma and have been living here for about 8 years. One of them is about to get his citizenship.

"Military government in Burma - No good."

[Frown]

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WeAreAllJust LooseChange
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As Dave pointed out - Myanmar was name that US and UK had not recognized.
According to Wikipedia:
"The official name of the country in the Burmese language, Myanma, did not change. Within the Burmese language, Myanma is the written, literary name of the country, while Bama or Bamar (from which “Burma” derives) is the oral, colloquial name. In spoken Burmese, the distinction is less clear than the English transliteration suggests."

I'd refer to it as Burma, because that's what we've used when I studied history in the past.

Regarding the crisis - we will never invade Burma militarily, because the Chineese will come to it's defence and we don't want a conflict with ll' China now, don't we? Or they will send so much support to the junta that the conflict will drag for years and years.
That's my personal opinion of course.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
For those skeptic that there is anything wrong going on in Burma - see satellite images of villages disappearing
Right, because the pro-Junta political movement has such a stranglehold on the American public opinion that no one here can conceive of the beloved military dictatorship doing anything wrong [Smile]
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WeAreAllJust LooseChange
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Daruma - the "joke" is on you.

Maybe I cannot express my thoughts as good as a person who speaks English natively, but at least I'm trying my best.

You are neither proposing a solution or expressing an opinion regarding the matter in question which to me proves your own words.

Then again - the obese eskimos on welfare are much better off this way.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by WeAreAllJust LooseChange:
As Dave pointed out - Myanmar was name that US and UK had not recognized.

I know, I was making a joke. [Big Grin]
quote:
Originally posted by WeAreAllJust LooseChange:
Regarding the crisis - we will never invade Burma militarily, because the Chineese will come to it's defence and we don't want a conflict with ll' China now, don't we? Or they will send so much support to the junta that the conflict will drag for years and years.

We'll never invade because there is no oil or other resource necessary to support the US economy or anything else I can think of that affects US interests. Why would we invade?
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Daruma28
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quote:

Maybe I cannot express my thoughts as good as a person who speaks English natively, but at least I'm trying my best.

You are neither proposing a solution or expressing an opinion regarding the matter in question which to me proves your own words.

Oh this has nothing to do with expressing your thoughts as good as a native English speaker...you express your thoughts better than a lot of native born speakers do.

I was merely having some fun at your expense because your post starts out trying to shame us for not discussing what's going on over there.

If you want to play the role of being morally superior, lecturing the rest of us on how we should be ashamed, expect a curmudgeon like myself to metaphorically poke you in the eye...because I was raised by a passive-aggressive mother who manipulated me with guilt trips for my entire young life. When I got old enough to realize the frame of the game, I consciously changed my outlook on life and relationships to avoid playing the game any longer.

Something about trying to shame me and manipulate my emotions to get me to act a certain way raises my hackles a bit.

In other words, I was using caustic sarcasm to shame you for trying to shame the rest of us. [Razz]

[ September 28, 2007, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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Ilmari
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quote:
Originally posted by WeAreAllJust LooseChange:
My opinion?
US (and the rest of the world) should prevent any and all companies from doing any business in Burma (other than humanitarian aid, etc.) until the government of Burma sets a date for nation-wide elections.

...

US Tourists should be discouraged by the US state dept. from visiting the country.
Forgot to mention that we should hit where it hurts them most - the financial resources of the military elite as well, as bare talks will not be enough.

I believe those things have already been done a while back (not 100%, but to a pretty great extent):

quote:
Myanmar’s foreign relations, particularly with Western nations, have been strained. The United States has placed a ban on new investments by U.S. firms, an import ban, and an arms embargo on Myanmar, as well as frozen military assets in the United States because of the military regime’s ongoing human rights abuses, the ongoing detention of Nobel Peace Prize recipient Aung San Suu Kyi, and refusal to honor the election results of the 1990 People’s Assembly election. Similarly, the European Union has placed sanctions on Myanmar, including an arms embargo, cessation of trade preferences, and suspension of all aid with the exception of humanitarian aid. U.S. and European government sanctions against the military government, coupled with boycotts and other direct pressure on corporations by western supporters of the Burmese democracy movement, have resulted in the withdrawal from Myanmar of most U.S. and many European companies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma#Foreign_relations_and_military

Also:

quote:
This Public Announcement is to inform U.S. citizens traveling to and residing in Burma of the large demonstrations in Rangoon, Mandalay, and other cities. U.S. citizens should defer non-essential travel to Burma at this time. American citizens resident in Burma should avoid all demonstrations and processions as they could turn violent with little or no warning.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_2508.html

Not that I think that it was exactly a tourist hot spot to begin with.

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Richard Dey
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Jesse:

¶ Murray, S. O.: Explaining Away Same-Sex Sexualities: When They Obtrude on Anthropologists' Notice at All; Anthropology Today, Vol. 13, No. 3; 1997.06; pp 2-5. doi:10.2307/2783130
¶ Knobel, P.: Burma; Encyclopedia of Homosexuality; I:174-175; 1990.
¶ Raj, B.: The Roles of Tantric Buddhism in Burma (1563-2003); The Encyclopedia Homophilica, UD 2005.
¶ Li, S. T.: Burmese Military Junta Claims Homosexuals Now Eliminated in Burma; TGR, 1999.02

Homosexuality was first banned in Burma in 1964 when a military junta took power. Raj notes that homosexuality is rife amongst the Burmese priesthood and form the major barrier to resistance against subsequent juntas. He also predicted, btw, that "the present junta" will be overthrown by 2007-2008 and replaced with another one.

But Burma is not the only nation to have denied that they had any homosexuals (left), nor the only religion! The Roman Catholic Church denied that it had any homosexuals in the priesthood until the Boston scandals! They were too busy sucking dick to respond.

Mussolini claimed Italians weren't homosexuals; all homosexuals were tourists who wanted to go to bed with Italian men [Big Grin] !

The USArmy has changed its tune since claiming during the McCarthy hearings that it had eliminated all homosexuals in the military since the ban went in in 1941, though it is interesting to note that Gen Pace (CNSNews, 2007.09.27) is still giving religious rather than rational reasons for allowing them to remain in the Army providing that they aren't caught (???). Asked by Sen Harkin about homosexuals in the military, he now says, "[W]e should respect those who want to serve the nation -- but not, through the law of the land, condone activity that in my upbringing, is counter to God's law." This is a bold step forward from when I first heard the word homosexual, thanks to Sen McCarthy (the drunk) who decided to make it a public issue -- unleashing half a century of coming-out parties. Ye gods, Agnes Gouch [Big Grin] !

Despite the claim that Iran has no homosexuals, for example, this claim has been made since the Hostages incident in the Carter administration. It simply isn't true.

For decades China claimed that it had no homosexuals because 'those kinds of people' were eliminated by their own villages. They were.

Rev Sprong for years warned that homosexuals in Tanganyika and Uganda 'disappeared'; they're still disappearing. We really don't care. It's a kind of a oh-my-goodness, those horrible foreigners kind of attitude we have.

In Iraq 10 gay men are still missing, having met with gay leaders from the UK last December; and a gay-rights activist from Israel has been missing in Iraq for 7 months now.

One can't legislate gay rights; they have to be punished into a religious population (to pervert a verb).

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hobsen
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Personally I tend to worry more about countries in the Americas and the Middle East which may be suffering because of U.S. policies. If the people of Burma are having a hard time, I do not think the United States is the cause.

Beyond that, while the government of Burma may be no showpiece for democracy, it does seem to have some sense of shame. Under a really repressive regime, Aung San Suu Kyi would not be in detention; she would have been dead for years. And countries like China do not have demonstrations because they send in the tanks to kill some demonstrators, and sentence the rest to twenty years in prison. Maybe the Burmese government is just weak, but I suspect it has some respect for public opinion.

The disappearing villages mentioned seem to be the results of government efforts to suppress a stubborn insurgency by ethnic minorities along the border with Thailand. Now these may be innocent victims of government oppression, but some of them may also be bandits and terrorists. The United States has certainly killed many innocent civilians in trying to suppress a similar insurgency in Iraq, which is not even our country, so we should not be too quick to condemn a foreign government trying to get control of its own territory. But I know very little about all this, so I shall be glad to hear the opinions of those who are better informed.

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TommySama
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Well as of late they've gone to the streets to periodically kill monks who are on peaceful protests against the junta.

"stubborn insurgency... ethnic minorities..."

Hmmm? I thought the last time we massacred entire villages was Mai Lai? (or however you spell it.)

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kenmeer livermaile
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If America ever learns to mind its own business and take care of its own, it will become this most wonderful of all nations that will likely infect, largely passively, most of the world with its bon homie.

And my mother will become Mary and I will discover I am the Second Coming of Jesus.

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Richard Dey
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[Big Grin] , yeah, but we can't mind our own business, Oz -- especially if we have guns and butter too, as LBJ insisted, and make money on both!

I liked the cartoon back then of a cannon on the White House oval shooting pounds of butter into outer space [Wink] .

Inappropos, I wonder whatever happened to the junta's plan to move the capital north. If it had moved more deliberately, perhaps "riots in the capital" wouldn't be happening! Supposedly, the capital will move November 7th -- according to astrological predictions or something.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4647100.stm
I think they should call it Emerald City, and if they built a yellow-brick road to it we could have an Ornerycon there [Smile] .

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JoshuaD
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quote:
If America ever learns to mind its own business and take care of its own, it will become this most wonderful of all nations that will likely infect, largely passively, most of the world with its bon homie.
If your neighbor is beating his children, you're supposed to just mind your own business?

I'm not saying we should police the world. But it seems that the right response is somewhere between the two extremes.

[ September 29, 2007, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: JoshuaD ]

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TommySama
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"Inappropos, I wonder whatever happened to the junta's plan to move the capital north. If it had moved more deliberately, perhaps "riots in the capital" wouldn't be happening! Supposedly, the capital will move November 7th -- according to astrological predictions or something."

My ex believed in astrology, so i cheated on her.

Are you saying that because the government in Myanmar is using astrological predictions we should have any affair with China, and then tell it in front of all of it's friends?

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Straygaldwyr
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Perhaps next time the Monks will bring guns to the fight, until then the military is just going to stay in power. It is a bit silly to expect otherwise, perhaps America will learn this lesson if Mrs. Clinton takes control of the military. Our liberals will discover the power of TM verse bombs...visualize world peace...HA!
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Straygaldwyr
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quote:
If your neighbor is beating his children, you're supposed to just mind your own business?
The analogy does not apply, a country is not a person, it cannot damn or save itself, it is for individuals to act out of conscience, the only responsibility of any government is to act in the interests of the people it serves.
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Everard
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"the only responsibility of any government is to act in the interests of the people it serves."

I'd certainly argue that there are times when intervening to stop human rights abuses by another government is in the interests of US citizens.

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Jesse
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quote:
My ex believed in astrology, so i cheated on her.
You go a long way toward restoring my faith in America, Tommy.

Mr. Dey, how am I supposed to know whose cheek your tongue is in? [Wink]

I figured you must be aware of the long Burmese history of both priestly and common folk homosexuality, not to mention their acceptance of the transgendered, which a seperate issue.

Whatever the insane denials of the current Junta.

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Richard Dey
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The Yankee maxim that one can't help others till he's helped himself must certainly be applied when he himself has been attacked.

If 100,000, 200,000, or 1,000,000 Americans abroad aren't bringing us intelligence on how to defend ourselves, we have no business sending Americans abroad to protect others. Those little Memorial Day flags don't come cheap, even from China.

The reason that we became involved in WWI, well beside the hauteur and posturing of the insufferable Germans and the French, was because we had a favorite -- and that was Great Britain, with its sufferable pretenses. Ideally, we should have sent domestics to England to back up its defenses without committing troops ... but oh no, Wilson wanted a grandstand for peace. Well, people on grandstands invite assassinations at best and bronx cheers at worst. WWII in Europe was WWI Act 2.

Ignoring how we have supplied guerrillas and materiel backing the wrong sides in dozens of secret wars and covert operations (which should never have been secret), and applying that premise to Burma, to whom would we write the cheques?

India wants no involvement with Burma, Thailand wants no involvement, Bhutan wants no involvement, Bangladesh wants no involvement, Laos wants no involvement, and what's the one I've missed?

What do we want, confrontations misfiring on the Chinese border?

If Burma requires stabilization (and who can doubt it?), there is only one logical party of involvement -- and that is China. I'd tell China to free Tibet, take nothing with you as you get out quick, and take Burma. That would shape up a Bangladeshi-Pakistani league PDQ, and put Thailand on notice.

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JoshuaD
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quote:
Originally posted by Straygaldwyr:
Perhaps next time the Monks will bring guns to the fight, until then the military is just going to stay in power. It is a bit silly to expect otherwise, perhaps America will learn this lesson if Mrs. Clinton takes control of the military. Our liberals will discover the power of TM verse bombs...visualize world peace...HA!

They believe there are worse things than dying.

If the entire world marched gun-less on the Burmese government and took away their guns, the government would lose, and the world wouldn't need to kill a person.

I think the monks have the right plan; it's just a shame that more people don't see it that way.

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Richard Dey
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The monks have no plan, JD. They live in their own world. Read the key paragraph at:

http://thestar.com.my/columnists/story.asp?file=/2007/9/30/columnists/onthebeat/19027490&sec=On%20The%20Beat , just out this morning in the Malay Star.

"That image of these monks (in Vietnam) has remained ingrained in my mind. As I watched the television coverage of the protesting monks in Myanmar, holding the same Buddhist flags, and being shot, there is a feeling of deja vu all over again."

The monks will win momentarily, but the government will simply replaced by one just as bad. It's like the pious Muslim Pakistani women refusing to testify against a rapist because it is irreligious to defame anybody else.

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