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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Multilateralism works with N. Korea! (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Multilateralism works with N. Korea!
Kent
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North Korea to Disable Nuclear Program
quote:
North Korea pledged Wednesday to detail its nuclear programs and disable all activities at its main reactor complex by the end of the year, its firmest commitment to disarm after decades seeking to develop the world's deadliest weapons.


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Jesse
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Diplomacy?

With an unreasonable madman?

What kind of friggin traitors talk to our enemies BEFORE they agree to do what we want?

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G2
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Honesty?

From a communist?

Since when have we ever known a friggin communist to tell the truth?

File this pledge from North Korea under "I'll believe it when I see it".

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TommySama
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Hasn't he promised to disable the program a few times?

Not trying to be a downer, but that was my impression.

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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
Diplomacy?

With an unreasonable madman?

What kind of friggin traitors talk to our enemies BEFORE they agree to do what we want?

The sort who don't think that Seol being reduced to rubble by long-range artillery in half an hour while hundreds of thousands of Korean soldiers on both sides of the border get embroiled in a pointless massacre and North Korea loses what little ability it still has to feed its starving millions would be a particularly proud and patriotic outcome perhaps?

What kind of unreasonable madman wants to equate proud American ideals with a completely avoidable Korean bloodbath that the world's managed not to trigger for five decades and counting?

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RickyB
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Rallan, you have been here long enough to know that Jesse was being sarcastic, yes? [Smile]
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Jesse
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I prefer "Growing some ironical Stategery".
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G2
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October 03, 2007:
quote:
Originally posted by G2:
Honesty?

From a communist?

Since when have we ever known a friggin communist to tell the truth?

File this pledge from North Korea under "I'll believe it when I see it".

November 21, 2010:
quote:
The scientist, Siegfried S. Hecker, a Stanford professor who previously directed the Los Alamos National Laboratory, said in an interview that he had been “stunned” by the sophistication of the new plant, where he saw “hundreds and hundreds” of centrifuges that had just been installed in a recently gutted building that had housed an aging fuel fabrication center, and that were operated from what he called “an ultra-modern control room.” The North Koreans claimed 2,000 centrifuges were already installed and running, he said.

American officials know that the plant did not exist in April 2009, when the last Americans and international inspectors were thrown out of the country. The speed with which it was built strongly suggests that the impoverished, isolated country, which tested its first nuclear device in 2006, had foreign help and evaded strict new United Nations Security Council sanctions imposed to punish its rejection of international controls…

[DOH]

[ November 23, 2010, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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KidTokyo
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I'm a little bit closer to this than I'd prefer at the moment.
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JWatts
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Under the 'Never trust a Communist' heading:

quote:
North Korea fires artillery barrage on South

North Korea fired dozens of artillery shells onto a South Korean island on Tuesday, killing one person, setting homes ablaze and triggering an exchange of fire as the South's military went on top alert.

The firing came after North Korea's disclosure of an apparently operational uranium enrichment programme -- a second potential way of building a nuclear bomb -- which is causing serious alarm for the United States and its allies.

Some 50 shells landed on the South Korean border island of Yeonpyeong near the tense Yellow Sea border, damaging dozens of houses and sending plumes of thick smoke into the air, YTN television reported.

One South Korean marine -- part of a contingent based permanently on the frontline island -- was killed and 13 other marines were wounded, the military said. YTN said two civilians were also hurt.

"A Class-A military alert issued for battle situations was imposed immediately after shelling began," a military spokesman said.

Link
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scouser1
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This is scarin the absolute **** out of me I don't mind admitting.
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Colin JM0397
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To be fair, the current SK president is quite the saber rattling fool - from the little bit I understand - and SK has been baiting NK. It's not such a cut and dry thing as "the evil NK communists bombarded the peace-loving, innocent South today".

I was over there 5 years ago, and poor or not, taking a good look at the NK order of battle scared the crap out of me. They might only be able to sustain a week or so of battle, but they will absolutely level Seoul and most positions within 30 miles of the DMZ, and they have a 100k-strong SF/infiltration force to terrorize the rest of the south. Many of them will defect, but if only 10% fulfill their mission, you are talking a humanitarian disaster like nothing ever seen.

Last time I checked, there are over 10 million in the greater Seoul area. That alone will flood the country with refugees and block military movements.

[ November 24, 2010, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Colin JM0397 ]

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edgmatt
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It occurred to me that this is not just North Korea acting alone. They are just the front men to test the world's resolve on what would happen if countries started being attacked. Could this be the first pebbles in the avalanche? Are China and Russia involved perhaps?

100% conspiracy theory, but I thought of it. I hope our military has too.

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KidTokyo
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Funny thing is, I know some Koreans here in Tokyo and they are surprisingly blase about all this. "Kim wants more money" one of them said. Japanese don't seem very worried either (and they would have reason to be, given that NK test-flew a missle over the continent a few years back).

Perhaps they're used to living with a constant undercurrent of tension, so this seems like less of an extraordinary event.

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G2
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I think it's a little different this time. Kim has named a successor and what better way to for any dissident factions to line up behind him than a great patriotic war?

Add in to this, SK's primary defender is the USA which is now led by a weak and ineffective leader that is sympathetic to the communist ideology.

If NK ever wanted to unify the peninsula under a communist regime, this is the time.

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KidTokyo
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quote:
Add in to this, SK's primary defender is the USA which is now led by a weak and ineffective leader that is sympathetic to the communist ideology.
I've seen you engage in hyperbole before, but this is wacked even by G2 standards. Are you drunk?
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:
Add in to this, SK's primary defender is the USA which is now led by a weak and ineffective leader that is sympathetic to the communist ideology.

President Obama isn't a weak and ineffective leader (as far as foreign policy goes), he's an untested leader.

It's quite possible that some of the big boy's China and/or Russia, have indicated to NK that they aren't going to intervene one way or the other. They might prefer to see how Obama will handle such a crisis.

Every President gets tested at one time or another on the international stage and the only obvious failure the US has had in a long time was President Carter. This may be Obama's first test. I think dispatching the air craft carrier was a good first response. We will see if the situation goes any further.

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Colin JM0397
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This could be more, of course, but it does appear to follow NK's typical - seems to be about annually - saber rattling and brinkmanship to get something they want.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by G2:
Add in to this, SK's primary defender is the USA which is now led by a weak and ineffective leader that is sympathetic to the communist ideology.

President Obama isn't a weak and ineffective leader (as far as foreign policy goes), he's an untested leader.

It's quite possible that some of the big boy's China and/or Russia, have indicated to NK that they aren't going to intervene one way or the other. They might prefer to see how Obama will handle such a crisis.

Every President gets tested at one time or another on the international stage and the only obvious failure the US has had in a long time was President Carter. This may be Obama's first test. I think dispatching the air craft carrier was a good first response. We will see if the situation goes any further.

Untested? I had to check the date on that. Prior to the election, that might have been true, but at this point Obama's got more war management experience than most US presidents in history. And while many folks are outraged by some of his war time decisions, I don't think there's any evidence that what he's done is beyond the pale in terms of what other presidents have done or would have done under similar circumstances.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Untested? I had to check the date on that. Prior to the election, that might have been true, but at this point Obama's got more war management experience than most US presidents in history. And while many folks are outraged by some of his war time decisions, I don't think there's any evidence that what he's done is beyond the pale in terms of what other presidents have done or would have done under similar circumstances.

I wasn't talking about "war management", I was referring to an "international crisis" to see how he handles Realpolitik.

Sacking a top general for making stupid comments hardly rises to the level of the Cuban Missile crisis or the Iranian Hostage crisis.

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Hannibal
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G2, someone already called you drunk.

But seriously dude... spins and cheap demagogary claims like that will lessen your credibility in future discussions and will only hurt you in the future.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by JWatts:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Untested? I had to check the date on that. Prior to the election, that might have been true, but at this point Obama's got more war management experience than most US presidents in history. And while many folks are outraged by some of his war time decisions, I don't think there's any evidence that what he's done is beyond the pale in terms of what other presidents have done or would have done under similar circumstances.

I wasn't talking about "war management", I was referring to an "international crisis" to see how he handles Realpolitik.

Sacking a top general for making stupid comments hardly rises to the level of the Cuban Missile crisis or the Iranian Hostage crisis.

Point to JWatts. Thanks for clarifying.
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edgmatt
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S. Korean Defense Minister Resigns...
Maybe I'm paranoid, but every time I read/hear an update on this, I get more and more frightened.

What the heck is going on?

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Hannibal
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KidTokyo:

"I'm a little bit closer to this than I'd prefer at the moment."

scouser1:

"This is scarin the absolute **** out of me I don't mind admitting."

edgmatt:

"S. Korean Defense Minister Resigns...
Maybe I'm paranoid, but every time I read/hear an update on this, I get more and more frightened."

And you guys expect Israel to sit tight while Iran builds the bomb?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
KidTokyo:

"I'm a little bit closer to this than I'd prefer at the moment."

scouser1:

"This is scarin the absolute **** out of me I don't mind admitting."

edgmatt:

"S. Korean Defense Minister Resigns...
Maybe I'm paranoid, but every time I read/hear an update on this, I get more and more frightened."

And you guys expect Israel to sit tight while Iran builds the bomb?

Of course not. Who you talking to?

I thought that Israel showed admirable restraint During Gulf War I, when Saddam started raining SCUDs down on you, trying to get you to respond so that he could drag other Muslim countries into his fight.

But this is different. By all means defend yourselves. If we pretend to object, that's just politics.

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0Megabyte
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I gotta go with Pete on this one. I certainly can't think of any objections.
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edgmatt
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I don't want Israel to sit tight at all. I don't even know why you think I did.
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KidTokyo
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I don't see any connection between NK and Iran.

But even if I saw an exact parallel, Hannibal's argument implies that SK should have bombed NK to hell years ago. Which is insane.

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KidTokyo
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In case anyone objects that I make such comments from the comfort of a safe distance, please be aware that KidTokyo at this moment is about 200 miles closer to Pyongyang than Israel is to Iran. And don't tell me Japan ain't near the top of the Great Leader's hit list.
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Hannibal
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The connection is that Iran has a potential to become like NK, if it will have nukes.

Once they have nukes, they can bombard us free of charge whenever they see fit, and we will "threaten to use deadly force" on them every time after they decide to lob a few cities.

Our situation is will be more precarious because Iran can attack us from Lebanon and Syria, so Iran can deal severe damage to Israel from these two countries, and Israel will retaliate against countries that Iran does not care about. further more, if we retaliate too hard on these two miserable countries Iran (or maybe even Hizballah or Syria) will threaten to use a nuke on us. so basically I dont see why Hizballah should not just bombard Israel on a daily basis once Iran has the nuke, there will be nothing that we can do (other than launching 50 nukes on Iran and Lebanon and Syria in the same time) to stop them

Is the connection clearer now?

Iran is a North Korea in the making.

Iran also has missiles that can strike Israel right now, and in several years (and probably with NK's help) they will also have ICBMs capable at attacking you guys too.

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RickyB
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Hannibal, nukes are not something you can use for anything except a dying revenge. Why folks can't get this through their thick heads is beyond me. Yes, it can be used to prevent the threat of termination, but not to prevent retaliation against a third party.

"so basically I dont see why Hizballah should not just bombard Israel on a daily basis once Iran has the nuke, there will be nothing that we can do (other than launching 50 nukes on Iran and Lebanon and Syria in the same time) to stop them"

Because we will bomb them back, and no, Iran will not commit suicide just to defend Hizballah. You can't have it both ways - either Iran "doesn't care" about Lebanon or it does. In any case, as the Romans used to say, the knee is closer than than the shin.

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Hannibal
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What ?

I dont have anything both ways.

North Korea is a perfect example, do you think that North Korea has any problems nuking the south? they are completely insane and unpredictable.


Iran does not have to nuke us directly, they can give the nuke to Hezbollah or some other spontaneous organization.

who knows what Iran will do? They are not logical by any worthy measure and they have religious roots that encourage them to die for their god

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Jordan
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I have to say, I cringe every time I see this topic title. [Frown]
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KidTokyo
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As a political and cultural entity, Iran has much more in common with Israel than it does North Korea.

NK: A homogenous totalitarian state based on slave-labor, collective brainwashing, racial mythology and the deification of an all-poweful Big Brother figure.

Iran: A multi-ethnic society with a parliamentary democracy and a blow-hard for a president.

Israel: A multi-ethnic society with a parliamentary democracy and a blow-hard for a prime minister.

Okay, Iran wins in the cleric department, hands down. But they have repeatedly condemned nuclear weapons, which is a lot more than can be said about Krazy Kim.

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Hannibal
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they are arguable "multi ethnic" but calling them a parliamentary democracy is a farce(typo?) and you know it.

in fact, the more I think about it, the more I feel like not even rewarding your remark with a post of my own.

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RickyB
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"they can give the nuke to Hezbollah or some other spontaneous organization."

Right, because Hizballah is so far away from us, they can afford to nuke us. Plus, the moment Iran has the bomb, they know they will be held liable for any nuclear attack on us or the west. A nuclear weapon is not something you give to a minion. Yes, it will give them more freedom of action and freedom from retaliation on some level, it will not mean they will use it to vaporize us. You remind me of the people who thought that the Soviets having the bomb meant instant annihilation. "Oh, but the Soviets were rational, these guys aren't" - people thought - were convinced - that the Soviets weren't rational too.

Kid - it is indeed farcical to call Iran a parliamentary democracy and compare it to Israel in that regard. Not only because they just had elections faked, but because a non-elected authority has the power to disqualify any candidate that challenges the precepts of the regime (added - or even appears however remotely to be doing so,or just annoys the powers that be). Israel, for all its faults and deterioration, is very far from that. Yes, here too the court can disqualify a party from running. It's happened a handful of times over 62 years, and we have three types of parties serving in Knesset who openly hate the reigning system and advocate its downfall (OK, two and a half. The ultra-orthodox who really feel like that boycott the elections on their own, the ones who run are self-serving weasels who hate the system while milking it in exchange for chamber votes). In Iran half the candidates who try to run get barred every time around, the vast majority of whom swear fealty to the system.

Hannibal - there's nothing arguable about Iran's multi-ethnicity. The Azari minority alone is larger than the Arab-Israeli one, and they have others as well - Lurs, Kurds, Baluchis and others. In fact Iran treats its ethnic minorities far better. The supreme leader is a non-Iranian. On the other hand, they persecute *religious* minorities, like the Baha'i.

[ November 27, 2010, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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Hannibal
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They are not "multi ethnic" in the fact that all of them want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews. I dont care if some of them have black hair and some are blonds.

Just like Iraqies who have nothing against Israel, want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews.

The leader of the so called "revolution" in Iran, if you recall, is a very liberal and peace loving man, he is only the founder of Hizballah.

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RickyB
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"They are not "multi ethnic" in the fact that all of them want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews."

A) Political positions have NOTHING to do with whether a society is multi-ethnic or not.
b) Actually, many Iranians oppose their government and like Israel quite a bit. This is well documented. Your insistence on painting 70 million people with the same brush says much more about you than about them.

"The leader of the so called "revolution" in Iran, if you recall, is a very liberal and peace loving man, he is only the founder of Hizballah. "

Untrue. He was placed on the organization's board by Khomeini *after* its founding. Mousavi is no saint. He is part of the original cadre of the regime in Iran and does not recognize Israel. What this has to do with anything discussed above is beyond me.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
They are not "multi ethnic" in the fact that all of them want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews. I dont care if some of them have black hair and some are blonds.

Just like Iraqies who have nothing against Israel, want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews.

The leader of the so called "revolution" in Iran, if you recall, is a very liberal and peace loving man, he is only the founder of Hizballah.

Hannibal, I'm shocked that you'd say something so foolish about your own region. You aren't doing Israel any favors when you suggest that all of Iran is solidly behind Ahminejad's antisemitic agenda. Thank heavens that is not true. And it would be very bad for your country for that to be perceived to be true.

off the subject musing: if Israel is a nation, doesn't that place Israel among the goyim? [Big Grin]

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Hannibal
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Jeez... you guys and your PC ness...

I stand corrected, what I ment to say is this :

There is absolutly ZERO chance that a government with friendly intentions towards Israel will ever ever ever ever be formed in any way what so ever.
Ofcourse, that still means that some Iranis like Israel.

However, the probability for a government in Iran, today, or in the future (which does not have to represent the entire 70 million people of Iran) that will want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews is ONE.

Is this politically correct enough for you ?

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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