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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Maureen Dowd on Hillary's Gift of Gall

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Author Topic: Maureen Dowd on Hillary's Gift of Gall
Kent
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I almost posted this New York Times link in the other Hillary thread, but this is such a great article I had to give it its own.

quote:
If she wants to run on her record as first lady while keeping the lid on her first lady record, that’s only fair for the fairer sex. And if she wants to have it both ways on illegal immigrants getting driver’s licenses, then she should, especially if those illegal immigrants are men, or if Lou Dobbs is ranting on the issue, because he’s not only a man, he’s a grumpy, cranky, border-crazed man.

She should certainly be allowed to play the gender card two ways, or even triangulate it. As her campaign manager, Patti Solis Doyle, said after the debate, she is “one strong woman,” who has dwarfed male rivals and shown she’s tough enough to deal with terrorism and play on the world stage. But she can break, just like a little girl, when male chauvinists are rude enough to catch her red-handed being slippery and opportunistic.

She writes like I would write if I were a great writer; tone is everything!
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Kent
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Oh come on you guys, you know you love Maureen; the hottest liberal over 40 (that was a sexist remark, but I want it both ways too).
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Kent
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Sorry, she is actually 55 years old.
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kenmeer livermaile
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I wish Obama were a black woman.
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Kent
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Doesn't anyone think Maureen's analysis of Hillary Clinton is wrong?
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kenmeer livermaile
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I don't think it's an analysis. JUst a columnist giving her electoral advice.
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scifibum
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I can't figure out whether Maureen is being completely sarcastic or not.
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kenmeer livermaile
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I suspect she can't either.
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Kent
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You guys are just ignoring this thread to spite me, aren't you? I will share a few hypothoses as to why this isn't a popular thread:

1. You don't support Hillary, but you don't hate her, so you don't care.

2. You like Maureen Dowd and you also like Hillary, so you are conflicted.

3. You don't have a sense of humor and are loathe to expose yourself.

4. You are a conservative and don't want to read anything by Maureen Dowd.

5. You are spiteful and getting back at me for my antics by purposefully ignoring this thread (except for kenmeer, of course, who only needs 45 minutes of sleep every day and must post on every topic whether he cares about it or not just to keep the forum alive).

6. You can't follow the link and nobody has told me it is broken.

Take your pick. You conservatives out there (yes, both of you) should at least enjoy this "catty" display by Dowd.

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TomDavidson
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#1. It's a boring topic. I refuse to expose myself to the media hype around Hillary Clinton; I've already decided I'm not voting for her in the primary, so everything else is just meaningless noise.
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Kent
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I thought it was #4 for you Tom, so thanks for setting the record straight.

[ November 06, 2007, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Kent ]

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msquared
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Kent

Tom is by no means a conservative.

#4 probably applies to me though.

msquared

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Funean
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Prolly mostly #1, though I must admitte to snorking loudly at the eerily accurate comparison to Alphonse D'Amato. Come to think of it, I haven't seen him much lately. Hmm.

[ November 06, 2007, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Funean ]

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Storm Saxon
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Can I pick a #7 and say that her article seemed to be a morass of incoherent cattiness that made the same point that a million others have already made, ie that Hillary often tries to please everyone?

Well, except when she's being mean to people 'cause of her power-hungriness or something, I suppose.

Frankly, I'm just bored with the Hillary soap opera. I wish I could read criticism of her that didn't read like the petulant tantrum of a six year old or an old drag queen holding court in some salon.

Of course, these days, no one apparently has the ability to have a civilized conversation about, well, anything. Sign o' the times, I guess.

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DonaldD
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I think I'm in for #3. Plus, being neither a US citizen nor resident, I simply don't care. Does that count as #1, too?
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kenmeer livermaile
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"(except for kenmeer, of course, who only needs 45 minutes of sleep every day and must post on every topic whether he cares about it or not just to keep the forum alive)."

I sleep -post.

#s 1 and 7, please.

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canadian
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Tom, I didn't think you were ever averse to exposing yourself.
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Kent
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This thread is becoming: "What makes a good discussion topic?" I have often wondered why I find some things extremely interesting and others just ignore it. I generally ignore most of the threads myself, but more because of tone rather than the topics (besides doing more actual work at work).
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Adam Masterman
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I just saw it, but...

Hillary is what I would call a typical politician: secretive, somewhat slimy and ethically compromised by my and most people's personal standards. For a politician, this seems pretty average. You get occassion truly decent men, like Moynihan or Carter or John McCain, and occassional extreme creeps, like Nixon or, in his personal life, Bill Clinton. So while I would vote for Hillary over most GOP candidates, I wouldn't say I LIKE her. She's a politician: a normal human being, slightly evil-er.

Obama seems pretty close to an actual decent human being. He would be a great choice, because I could agree with his policy opinions AND think I was electing (*gasp*) a good person. The last truly good person in the White House was Jimmy Carter, and the last truly good person who was a good president was... not sure if I've been alive to see that. Washington?

Maureen Dowd is funny. And intellectually honest, since she's willing to skewer the left when said skewer is called for. Props.

Adam

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Omega M.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent:

Sorry, she is actually 55 years old.

I guess that's not her natural hair color, then?
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cherrypoptart
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#4

#2 with a bar over it - Don't like Dowd or Clinton(s)

It was well written and I do appreciate the witty style, but I'm less interested in the drama and more interested in the positions, in what these people actually say they intend to do, and guessing in most cases about what they actually will do once elected. There just isn't enough substance to comment about at length.

What we need are details, and what we get is fluff and a song and dance.

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flydye45
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Mark Hemingway wrote it best:

quote:

MoDo has followed an interesting path to fame and fortune as a columnist. In the 1990’s she established her brassy independence by daring to criticize Bill Clinton — though she always stopped short of a true condemnation . This earned her a Pulitzer, but her career path has proven shaky since then. The obsession with the Clintons remains; the point, however, is long gone.

In fact, as I’ve theorized for some time now, Dowd’s aimlessness has become so pronounced that it seems as though her florid sentences could be arranged at random, with little discernable difference to her usual columns. The opening of the New York Times archives has finally given me the opportunity to test this hypothesis.

I spent an afternoon reading Dowd’s columns from the past year, and have produced the world’s first op-ed column mash-up, or MoDo Mad-Libs. Each of the following Maureen Dowd sentences is taken out of context and reassembled into a new whole. The result is somewhat incoherent, disjointed, unintentionally funny, badly lacking context, and an entirely unfair assessment — in other words, it is exactly like a Maureen Dowd column.


web page

She has a long reputation of taking ellipses to a whole new level, using them to join together speech which totally distorts context and meaning. If this is the fairness Adam alludes to, give me a straight enemy anyday. (Richard says they are softer)

[ November 06, 2007, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

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DaveS
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Kent, sorry, I was busy and not paying attention. I agree that she is a brilliant writer, able to frame worthwhile subjects like an artist. As to your numbered list, #1 and #2. I agree with KL that she may sometimes pickle herself in her own brine by following the path of her words instead of her thoughts. She tastes like sour grapes when that happens.

I also agree with AM about Carter. Ford was a "good man" who is easy to overlook because he was bereft of ideas. Before him I would have to go back to Lincoln, whose "better nature" will always dominate any other estimation of him. You would also ignore Jefferson?

Fly, there's nothing unfunnier than an unfunny joke. If you don't get MD's wit and wisdom, you will find her shrill and screechy. You can parody and pillory anybody you don't get, as Hemingway demonstrates.

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flydye45
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"Fly, there's nothing unfunnier than an unfunny joke"

Very profound.

"You can parody and pillory anybody you don't get, as Hemingway demonstrates."

How condescending. I "get" MoDo. As one who parodies and pillories for a living, MoDo doesn't get immunity. And as every writer suffers, they get into ruts. After reading a few hundred of her columns, it becomes a bit stale.

At her finest, MoDo can be insightful and witty, with an urbane phrase which slashes to the quick.

When off her game which frequently happens when she indulges in her well known partisanship...she becomes shrill and irrelevant, kind of like Kuirky Liberal posters here [Big Grin]

Or as someone insightful said

"she may sometimes pickle herself in her own brine by following the path of her words instead of her thoughts. She tastes like sour grapes when that happens."

But I'm saying it (or rather those wraskawwy wepubwicans), so I don't "get it" [Wink] Hmm.

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DaveS
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I guess you don't get my style [Wink] .
quote:
But I'm saying it (or rather those wraskawwy wepubwicans), so I don't "get it"
I think she's sharp and on point as often as any other top columnist on any side of the divide, and I'm observing that she sometimes misfires. Can you think of any columnist who wouldn't become stale after reading a few hundred columns, especially one with an idiosyncratic style? BTW, it's Hemingway I was picking on, but since you offered him, I assume you agree with his comment that:
quote:
The result is somewhat incoherent, disjointed, unintentionally funny, badly lacking context, and an entirely unfair assessment — in other words, it is exactly like a Maureen Dowd column.
Doesn't sound like he "gets it". Are you sure you do?
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Straygaldwyr
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Was that what passes for satire on the Left? It seemed to be nothing more then accurate characterization...
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flydye45
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"I guess you don't get my style"

Why is everything about you?

I find her as fully germaine in humor, context, fairness and coherence as, say, Rush Limbaugh. [Wink]

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DaveS
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Yep, you get it all right [Smile] Matter of taste in the end...
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveS:

Fly, there's nothing unfunnier than an unfunny joke. If you don't get MD's wit and wisdom, you will find her shrill and screechy. You can parody and pillory anybody you don't get, as Hemingway demonstrates.

No I'm afraid I have to step in and defend fly there. That was a National Review op/ed, and even I thought it made a good point in an entertaining way. Maureen Dowd at her finest probably writes a mean column. I mean hell, they don't just pick Pullitzer Prize winners out of a hat. But Maureen Dowd in this column on Hillary - and in way too many other columns that I just had a perusal of to get myself up to speed - writes crap. Dull, insipid, mildly snarky crap, where one snide idea without any real meat on it segues blandly into another until you've got a big featureless beige plain of crap with nary a meaningful point to be seen.

Plus the coy faux-familiar groove she tries to lay on by referring to everyone by first names or nicknames is just thoroughly awful. She's writing political opinion for the New York Times damn it, not calling the headlines on Entertainment Tonight.

[ November 07, 2007, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Rallan ]

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Storm Saxon
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Yep. Agreed.
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DaveS
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All that is the essence of her satirical style. It is just a matter of taste, but written satire and political cartoons are variations on a theme of commentary rendered as art. I think it's difficult to criticize her technique beyond saying that you liked her earlier work better or never at all. I don't like (or even read) all of her columns lately, but when she zings, she really zings.
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Omega M.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
Oh come on you guys, you know you love Maureen; the hottest liberal over 40 (that was a sexist remark, but I want it both ways too).

I don't know, Susan Estrich is pretty good-looking too, and probably more intelligent in areas that matter ...
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erik the awful
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OK Kent: I liked it. Dowd is OK, Hillarious creeps me out. I wonder who Hillary will call "enemy combatant?"
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