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Author Topic: Paris Burning: The Sequel
G2
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It's 2 nights of rioting and they're bracing for a third. We saw this in 2005 but it appears this may get even more out of hand:
quote:
Police unions said the violence was worse than the rioting that hit hundreds of French cities in November 2005 -- also sparked by the deaths of two youths.

Some 120 police officers have been injured, four of them seriously after being hit by buckshot from hunting weapons, according to police figures. By comparison, 200 officers were injured in three weeks of rioting in 2005.

The armed Muslim insurgents .... uh, I mean French youths are serious about this, many vowing to "do in" a "pig" on orders from their leaders ... I mean elders.

As we enter night 3, there's a lot of concern that it appears to be spreading:
quote:
"Two things are cause for anxiety: signs that the violence is spreading to neighbouring areas, which have already had their share of burned cars, and the almost systematic use of firearms against police," said Douhane Mohamed of the Synergie police union.

Smaller outbreaks of violence also flared in five other high-immigration neighbourhoods of the north Paris suburbs, not far from the starting-point of the 2005 riots.

It will be interesting to see Sarkozy's reaction. Will he crack down on the jihadists ...err, I mean French youths in France's midst or make a run at them with the traditional French tactic of appeasement? Appeasement didn't work out so well after 2005 obviously; maybe it just needs more time? Sure, that must be it. Meanwhile the tradition of Muslim youth ... sorry, French youth setting cars on fire continues to grow.
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WeAreAllJust LooseChange
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G2 has never been to France, has never been to a Muslim community at all, cannot differentiate between French youth and jihadists, has never lived in a different culture than his own pristine environment but is still competent on this issue???

[Roll Eyes]

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KnightEnder
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Have you read about the muslim youth situation in France? Hell, we set cars on fire if the home town team wins the NBA Championship.

KE

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Wayward Son
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But you see, it's part of the Muslim Imperialist's plans to take over the world, by using their youth to intimidate countries that are not involved in the Iraqi war.

Nefarious, isn't it? [Wink]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by WeAreAllJust LooseChange:
G2 has never been to France,

Wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by WeAreAllJust LooseChange:
has never been to a Muslim community at all,

Wrong again.

quote:
Originally posted by WeAreAllJust LooseChange:
cannot differentiate between French youth and jihadists,

And wrong again - it's you missing the distinction between the two.

quote:
Originally posted by WeAreAllJust LooseChange:
has never lived in a different culture than his own pristine environment but is still competent on this issue???


and yet wrong again. Wrong on all points as usual and we should believe you're still competent on any issue??? [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
But you see, it's part of the Muslim Imperialist's plans to take over the world, by using their youth to intimidate countries that are not involved in the Iraqi war.

The war has nothing to do with it but it is part of the plan to dominate Europe. See here:
quote:
Fallaci [Oriana Fallaci, author of The Force of Reason] says that the Muslims hope to install a Muslim state in the U.S. and Britain. She quotes Islamic authorities and community leaders who charge Muslim women with the duty of bearing at least five children. This is what she calls “the subtle and crawling way with which the Islamic community tries to penetrate the European society, to take possession of it.”
For daring to say such thing, Fallaci was indicted under the Italian Penal Code for the “vilification of Islam”. How long before all of Europe has such laws? Do they already?

quote:
Houari Boumedienne, President of Algeria in a 1974 Speech before the United Nations:
One day millions of men will leave the southern hemisphere of this planet to burst into the northern one. But not as friends. Because they will burst in to conquer, and they will conquer by populating it with their children. Victory will come to us from the wombs of our women.

Nefarious indeed.
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G2
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Night 3 is underway and here are the early reports:
quote:
Youths rampaged for a third night in the tough suburbs north of Paris and violence spread to a southern city late Tuesday as police struggled to contain rioters who have burned cars and buildings and — in an ominous turn — shot at officers.

A senior police union official warned that "urban guerrillas" had joined the unrest, saying the violence was worse than during three weeks of rioting that raged around French cities in 2005, when firearms were rarely used.

"Urban guerrillas"? No doubt WAAJLC would object ot he categorization of French youth as "urban guerrillas". Touching this off was the deaths of 2 teenagers which the media reports only by their first names, Lakhami, 16, and Mouhsin, 15. Such nice, traditional French names WAAJLC would have us believe! Last time I was there I heard Jean-Marie and Pierre-Louis or even Aimé for young Frenchman. But it's been about 4 years since I last hopped across the pond, maybe everyone is changing their name?

Just who are these "French youths"? Well:
quote:
Youths, many of them Arab and black children of immigrants, again appeared to be lashing out at police and other targets seen to represent a French establishment they feel has left them behind.
I agree with Gilles Wiart, No. 2 official in the SGP-FO police union:
quote:
"I don't think it's an ethnic problem," Wiart said. "Most of all it is youths who reject all state authority. They attack firefighters, everything that represents the state."
It's not a race issue at all - it's a religious one. Of course they would attack anything/anyone representing a non-Islamic state. The French need to wake up and see this for what it is; jihad.

[ November 27, 2007, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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DonaldD
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or, you know,youths who are completely dispossesed by the greater society (a fairly overtly racist one at that) and with 50% unemployment in many communities and little or no prospects for improvement in the foreeable future.
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Jesse
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I'm ever gratefull that we managed to stave off the attempted African take over of the US in '92.

Rioting in France is a sign of assimilation.

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cherrypoptart
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No riots in Japan. Bet they are glad their visions of empire fell through. It's funny how the French went out and conquered these Muslim countries, and then turned around and made them citizens of France, and now those citizens are turning around and razing the country. What is the game plan here, on both sides?

I admit I have no idea what's going on, but one thing is for sure. If you're a Frenchie and you don't have a garage and park your car in it, then you're an idiot. Another thing that is for sure is that whatever the media is telling us is a crock of Frenchmen.

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TommySama
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"I admit I have no idea what's going on, but one thing is for sure. If you're a Frenchie... then you're an idiot."

Never a truer statement ;-).

[ November 28, 2007, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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Storm Saxon
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The rioters are in the wrong for rioting. There's no excuse for it, and doesn't help the situation in any fashion.

If French society can do more to open up the country to the disenfranchised, they should do so.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"The French need to wake up and see this for what it is; jihad."

I want to frame this on the lid of my toilet seat.

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G2
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It's a little calmer in Paris tonight although it's spreading:
quote:
However, for the first time, unrest was reported outside of Paris suburbs. The southern city of Toulouse saw at least ten cars torched and a library was set on fire.
Why did it calm down in Paris? The buzz on talk radio is that it was due to a popular soccer match that was televised Wednesday evening. I'm not a big soccer fan but given the passion Europeans have for soccer it may genuinely have had some effect.

And what do they mean by calmer? I googled around and the actual stats for car burnings and shot police are not reported as they were on the previous 2 nights. Curious ...

What are the police saying? Here's one:
quote:
This time, they're after us and they're armed," said Christophe, a police officer, to The Guardian.
Maybe Chrisophe is just being paranoid and anti-muslim.

From another officer:
quote:
"We're not talking about urban violence anymore, we're talking about insurrection," says Patrice Ribeiro, head of the police union Synergie Officers. "It's more violent than in 2005. . . . We have armed people shooting at police. We knew it was going to happen and it happened."
An armed insurrection? By Muslim immigrants? The French are getting closer to using the "j" word.

We'll see what happens tomorrow ...

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WeAreAllJust LooseChange
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G2 - are you an immigrant?

If yes - are you a young Muslim Immigrant in France?

If no - why don't you quote one of THEIR opinons, so we can make up our minds on what they are rioting about?


Re-quote:
----
Fallaci [Oriana Fallaci, author of The Force of Reason] says that the Muslims hope to install a Muslim state in the U.S. and Britain. She quotes Islamic authorities and community leaders who charge Muslim women with the duty of bearing at least five children. This is what she calls “the subtle and crawling way with which the Islamic community tries to penetrate the European society, to take possession of it.”
------

...Now I know how anti-abortion and anti-contraceptives christian fundamentalists are taking over US.
We'll just have to live with it I guess.

It's a coming.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Now I know how anti-abortion and nti-contraceptives christian fundamentalists are taking over US.
We'll just have to live with it I guess.

It's a coming."

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I'm being proactive AND exploitative at the same time: I'm selling Pentecostal line dance classes to Lutherans looking to loosen up and get funky with the imminent Rapture. Someone's going to take advantage of this; why not me?

Now spasm to the left y'all. Churn your tootsies in the air. Spasm right, flail and !KICK!...

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martel
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"Have you read about the muslim youth situation in France? Hell, we set cars on fire if the home town team wins the NBA Championship.

KE "

Come on, KE, you know that's (mostly) facetious. Those aren't rioters, they're drunks.

But French immigrants, especially youth, are not in good shape, you're right. I don't think this can all be pinned on the government, because quite simply the French aren't used to assimilation in anything approaching this scale, having never had to do it before. As for Fallaci, at least she's trying to do something, and she's definitely right on one point. If this keeps up, liberal, modern, Christian or post-Christian European culture will become an afterthought in 50 years at least in France, the Netherlands, and Italy (and maybe more). All you need to know for that is relative birth and death rates, immigration rates, and the fact that very, very few african and arab immigrants are becoming a part of French culture or even lending their culture to mainstream French culture. It's not like the Irish or Italians or whatevers here: the cultures are so different and there is so little assimilation occurring that it is naive to hope that things will simply work out.

By the way, why is it mentioned exactly nowhere in these articles that the rioters are Muslim (if they are, which seems likely)? We are told that they are Arabs and Africans; would not their religion be useful as well? I'm not saying this is jihad; it might not be, and I certainly hope it isn't. These boys do have something to be displeased about, and it isn't the Great Satan. But it might still be religious motivation/inspiration at least in part, and that would be useful...is the AFP involved in some self-censoring?

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Jesse
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'Cause some of em is Christians, at least among the vandalism and car burning set, although I've seen no evidence of Christians among the cop shooting sub-set.

Suprisingly, Christian immigrant darkies live right side by side with Muslim immigrant darkies hating the same Gendarmes.

Kumbya-my-lord....

Easy to paint as a Mohhamed thing, but it's moreso a class and economics thing.

First clue? They didn't riot when France banned wearing headscarves or veils to school.

Oh, and yeah, no one in France got killed over those Danish Cartoons. Some protests, a handfull of arrests for general idiocy, but nobody hospitalized or killed.

[ November 28, 2007, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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martel
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Good call, forgot about that.

Do you have a source (not that I doubt your trustworthyness) on the Christian thing?

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Jesse
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BBC last time around interviewing Christian African kids that were involved, and the kids making a big point about how it's "all of them" and "not just about religion".

I absolutely could not even guess what sort of percentage we're talking about here.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Buckshot squad WAS a pack of little aspiring AQ muslim young men, to tell you the truth, but that's pretty clearly opportunism.

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graywolfe
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The soccer game you may be talking about probably involved Marseille (who lost to Beskitas earlier today in the champions league) or Lyon who played Barcelona in the champions league tuesday night.
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tonylovern
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ok, who gave the new guy that member number?
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graywolfe
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quote:
Originally posted by martel:
As for Fallaci, at least she's trying to do something, and she's definitely right on one point.

Unless I'm mistaken, Fallaci passed away more than a year ago.
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TommySama
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Why are we listening to somebody who's name sounds just like Fallacy? Get your **** together, guys.
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Lyrhawn
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You have to admit they have some genuinely valid problems. They live in urban slums surrounding some of the most prosperous, glamorous cities on Earth, and no matter how many times they have protested, their situation still has not improved, so t hey think they are being ignored and they want a seat at the table. They got it last time, but nothing came of it.

At the same time, this is a unique problem in France's history, or at least from the last 500 or more years. The French have an insular culture, and they are extremely proud of it. They see immigrants from non-French and in many cases even non-European nations as a virtual invasion, as these people are not interested in adopting french culture in the way that the French would like, and they have no experience who how these things really happen over generations, not just over decades.

We figured this whole thing out 400 years ago, or really at THIS level, we figured it out 100 years ago, but still, this process involves growing pains, and I think it could be resolved better if the French government got more serious, more recently, in addressing their concerns and making them feel like Frenchpeople and not damned foreigners.

Italy is going through the same thing, but they have less people and less space, with more immigrants. Riots broke out recently, though nowhere near as destructive when I think a Romanian immigrant killed an Italian woman. This is a growing problem across Europe as the EU really opens the floodgates to immigration.

[ November 29, 2007, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]

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Tisiphone
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quote:
You have to admit they have some genuinely valid problems. They live in urban slums surrounding some of the most prosperous, glamorous cities on Earth, and no matter how many times they have protested, their situation still has not improved, so t hey think they are being ignored and they want a seat at the table. They got it last time, but nothing came of it.
So their solution is to riot again because some idiots got killed in the commission of a crime. So, of course, they're going to burn down their own crappy slums.
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Lyrhawn
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I never said I was excusing the riots. I've never understood riots, all they do is sow destruction that eventually has to be fixed by someone, and almost always makes the situation worse and more expensive.

I said they had valid complaints, not that they had valid reactions.

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LoneSnark
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But when the authorities try to fix the problem by cutting the minimum wage and a host of employment restrictions they get a riot on their hands.

So, the problem is that France is a riot prone culture. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

This is a lesson people: never allow America to become like France.

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The Drake
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France is due for a revolution or an occupation right about now anyway. It's cyclical.

They're even protesting about the inhumanity of not being able to retire at 50.

Zut Alors!

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