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Author Topic: Why I won't vote for Huckabee
kelcimer
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I am mystified as to Huckabee's rise.

It seems to be built on the argument "I'm religious and therefore am conservative".

While he definitely is religous, being religious doesn't a conservative make. That'll get you credit on two certain hot button emotional issues, but nothing else.

The more I find out about the guy the more he's turning out to be a hollow candidate. As govenor he wanted to treat illegals as citizens and was more of a democrat then a republican. He's also amzingly tone deaf on foreign policy.

And that's before you get to the fact that as Baptist pastor he by definition thinks that I am a sinner and will burn in hell. That makes me personally offended.

He's kinda the worst of most worlds for me. He's great on the only two traditional republican positions I disagree with. He's soft & stupid on the two issues I care most about. And he thinks I'll burn in hell. The only way he could be worse for me is if he wanted to expand entitlement spending like Hillary.

Here's to hoping that he stalls after Iowa.

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TommySama
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Yeah, but.
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kenmeer livermaile
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This year's polit-ads are better by fat than the candidates.

Bush: all hat, no cattle

This year's candidates: all sizzle, no steak.

Yee-HAH! Round 'em up, boyz!

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Everard
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"It seems to be built on the argument "I'm religious and therefore am conservative".

While he definitely is religous, being religious doesn't a conservative make. "

Not to be glib or anything, but for a huge chunk of voters, being "christian" is THE issue.

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Jesse
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Yeah, but Gulliani the sorta-catholic and Mormon Mitt are the only two who aren't "christian" by those folks lights, aren't they?

This is one Republican even Hillary could easily beat, and if he wins the nomination I'm going to have to consider the RNC to have commited hari-kari.

It could be a good thing. Republicans might figure out that bending over too far for the Fundies won't get them the White House.

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Richard Dey
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It's the Democrats' election to lose, and I don't like any of them.
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Clark
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Of the reasons not to vote for Huckabee, the one that is top on my list this week is that he supports teaching creationism in school. I even believe that God created the earth, but that doesn't make is science and it shouldn't be taught in school!
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Kent
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I won't vote for Huckabee because he's a Mormon.
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msquared
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
I won't vote for Huckabee because he's a Moron.

Here Kent, I fixed that for you. [Smile]

msquared

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DrPepper
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At times, I have trouble distinguishing between Huckabee’s gullibility, naivety, and maneuvers. It’s such a muddle!

For instance, in one debate he claimed, falsely, that most of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were clergymen. Was he just repeating something he bought into, or was he trying to manipulate Christian voters?

Also, he told CBN that his theology degree, which isn't a theology degree, gives him a greater understanding of the “theocratic war” on terror than his opponents, and, because of that “understanding,” he is stronger on terror than most people. Huh? Does he believe that? Will voters?

And then there’s his explanation for his having supported the isolation -- isolation, not quarantine! -- of AIDS patients; he’s essentially saying that we, in the early 90’s, feared HIV to be as highly communicable as TB… Uh…

[ December 23, 2007, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: DrPepper ]

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RickyB
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Got references for that, Pepper? I'd love to see where Huckabee saying something so outlandish [Smile]
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DrPepper
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Sure...

Huckabee on the signers of the Declaration:
quote:
When our founding fathers put their signatures on the Declaration of Independence, those 56 brave people, most of whom, by the way, were clergymen, they said that we have certain inalienable rights given to us by our creator, and among these life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, life being one of them. I still believe that.
A refutation:
quote:
Only one of the 56 [signatories of the Declaration] was an active clergyman, and that was John Witherspoon…The conservative Heritage Foundation said two other signers were former clergymen. The religion web site Adherents.com said four signers of the declaration were current or former full-time preachers.
Huckabee on terror:
quote:
I'm as strong on terror as anybody. In fact I think I'm stronger than most people because I truly understand the nature of the war that we are in with Islamofascism. These are people that want to kill us. It's a theocratic war. And I don't know if anybody fully understands that. I'm the only guy on that stage with a theology degree. I think I understand it really well.
Huckabee corrects himself:
quote:
I have a bachelor of arts in religion and a minor in communications in my undergraduate work. And then I have 46 hours on a master's degree at Southwestern Theology Seminary. So, my degree as a theological degree is at the college level and then 46 hours toward a masters -- three years of study of New Testament Greek, and then the rest of it, all in Seminary was theological studies, but my degree was actually in religion.
Huckabee in ‘92 on handling AIDS patients:
quote:
If the federal government is truly serious about doing something with the AIDS virus, we need to take steps that would isolate the carriers of this plague. It is difficult to understand the public policy towards AIDS. It is the first time in the history of civilization in which the carriers of a genuine plague have not been isolated from the general population, and in which this deadly disease for which there is no cure is being treated as a civil rights issue instead of the true health crisis it represents.
And now:
quote:
Huckabee said Saturday that his comments came at a time when the public was still learning about HIV and AIDS and promised to do "everything possible to transform the promise of a vaccine and a cure into reality."

Huckabee said in a prepared statement released by his campaign Saturday afternoon that he called for quarantine when there was a lot of confusion about how AIDS is spread. He said he wanted at the time to follow traditional medical practices used for dealing with tuberculosis and other infectious diseases.

"We now know that the virus that causes AIDS is spread differently, with a lower level of contact than with TB," Huckabee said. "But looking back almost 20 years, my concern was the uncertain risk to the general population -- if we got it wrong, many people would die needlessly. My concern was safety first, political correctness last."

tuh-mey-toh, tuh-mah-toh:
quote:
In an interview on "Fox News Sunday," the former Arkansas governor denied those words were a call to quarantine the AIDS population, although he did not explain how else isolation would be achieved. "I didn't say we should quarantine," he said. The idea was not to "lock people up."

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Ron Lambert
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Since none of the candidates profess to not be Christians (take a moment to unravel the double negative there), the issue is not whether a candidate is Christian. It is not even whether he is religious, since most people elected have never been particularly religious. What Christians are really, seriously looking out for, is to make sure than a candidate is not anti-religous, either overtly or covertly. If the ACLU (commonly perceived as being anti-religious) were to endorse a candidate, that would be the kiss of death. Most people want to make sure that whoever they elect is not going to try to shove down their throats an agenda hostile to Christian values. They largely do not care if he is religious or not. Just so long as he is not passionately committed to forcing acceptance of something Christians view with moral abhorrence. There are other issues involved in deciding on a candidate; but this is the one true litmus test.

[ December 23, 2007, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If the ACLU (commonly perceived as being anti-religious) were to endorse a candidate, that would be the kiss of death.
Given how opposed our candidates are to civil liberties....

quote:
They largely do not care if he is religious or not. Just so long as he is not passionately committed to forcing acceptance of something Christians view with moral abhorrence.
Jews, you mean?
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RickyB
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"Just so long as he is not passionately committed to forcing acceptance of something Christians view with moral abhorrence."

Like gender equality... [Razz]

Ed. to add - or gay rights...

Or defending the rights of Christians, when genuinely infringed upon.

[ December 24, 2007, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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kelcimer
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http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/12/the_church_of_huck_growing_gov.html

quote:
There is a candidate in the presidential race who has a serious religion problem. No, it's not Mormon Mitt or recently-religious Rudy. It is Mike Huckabee.

Just for the record, I share Huck's faith in Jesus Christ. Not only have I no problem with religion in public life, I also understand that one can't really separate a person's world view from his politics. The political is merely a reflection of the spiritual; our politics doesn't emerge in a vacuum.

So what is my problem with Huck? Do I accuse him of false religiosity?

No, what scares me is that his beliefs are all too real.

To that enormous secular conservative voting block out there, I will say, be not afraid. It's not that Huck would impose religion through government. No, his actions would truly offend you.

He would impose statism in the name of religion through government.

While Huck will say what you want to hear to win office, he will not hear what you want to say once there. He will make tone-deaf Bush seem like a maestro. How do I know this?

He believes.


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DaveS
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The argument made historically in this country by Jews and other religiously oppressed groups (and just plain liberals) is now being taken up by some on the right, that the freedoms we all share are inversely affected by the power of conviction of the people we elect. If the President, in particular, has only one higher authority to appeal to, and if s/he is as clear in his/her vision as Huckabee seems to be in his, I can only imagine what could happen. Some of it already has with Bush. I hadn't paid much attention to Huckabee until the past few weeks because he seemed so unelectable. I still think he is unelectable, but I do feel a twinge of anxiety.

[ December 24, 2007, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: DaveS ]

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kelcimer
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In other words: Huckabee wouldn't understand that he would have to report to a higher authority then his god, that he would be reporting to the American people.
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Kent
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Dave, do you have these same concerns about Romney?
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hobsen
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Huckabee seems to be the only Republican candidate gaining traction at this point; his star is definitely rising. Maybe he will top out at some point, or maybe that will propel him to victory.

He may appeal to Republicans who are angry at Bush catering to the rich and slighting family values: those Republicans favor government assistance to the poor. And with his support for a flat tax he is in a sense running against the IRS: a candidate will get a lot of votes who simply promises to dismiss all IRS agents. Also he is still on his first wife and his first position on abortion, which has to help. He might appeal to more Hispanics than most too, as to his credit he has refused to cater to American hatred for illegals, and a lot of Hispanics are very conservative Christians.

Huckabee is also described as funny and likable, which has to make him stand out among this year's Republican candidates. But his ethics record could prove a disaster: he had a lot of charges against him as governor. And the record of history is against him: populist candidates like William Jennings Bryan have occasionally secured a nomination, but Andrew Jackson was I think the last to be elected. And Jackson was a war hero of sorts, which Huckabee is not.

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TommySama
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Well at least my cousin and aunt, who are in a cult, support him :-P
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Eric
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On the list of GOP candidates I'd never vote for, Huckabee is second only to Ron Paul. My theory on his recent rise--which I believe has already peaked--is that he was "discovered" by evangelicals who quickly bought into his "Christian-ness". Almost certainly, the claims of a subliminal message with the bookcase/floating cross thing in his Christmas ad helped him with this bloc.

But I think a lot of them are already souring after looking at him a bit closer.

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DaveS
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quote:
Dave, do you have these same concerns about Romney?
No, very different ones. Romney was very successful at Bain Capital, a venture capital firm. Winning (i.e., amassing vast amounts of money for your investors) is the only goal, and to whom the Truth is an important and dangerous tool that should be used carefully when it fits the job. But VCs are a vicious lot, especially when their investments are in jeopardy, so even though multiple VCs may say the same things and look alike, you have to be very careful to pick the one who will really represent your interests.

Kelcimer, that's my worry. We should be the higher authority.

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Ron Lambert
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TomDavidson, no I did not mean Jews. There is no issue there, that I am aware of. RickyB was more on the mark when he suggested gay rights, etc. Same sex marriage is something that really offends most Christians, who cherish the Biblical foundation of marriage. There are other things that an anti-religious government could do, like revoke the tax-exempt status of churches, cease allowing deductions for tithes and offerings given to churches, require the teaching of evolution in church schools, and similar things involving administration and financing.

For a long time, Christians have felt they were being unfairly targeted for ridicule and abuse, and the fact is they are politically powerful enough to do something about it, and they are in the process of getting organized so that they can. I do not say this is a good thing. It could really go south in a hurry. But it is happening.

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Ron Lambert
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I am surprised someone like Huckabee has not run for office before. Baptist preachers can be very polished, skilled, professional, and charismatic speakers, especially the ones who MC huge, 5,000 member churches, like a few I have seen in the Detroit area (like when we went to one for a Steve Green concert). Such speakers could handle themselves in Las Vegas, possibly even Carnegie Hall. They are good! I don't know how big a church Huckabee had, or how gifted a preacher he was--but from what I have seen so far, he's ready for prime time.

This is not an endorsement. I still know too little about him. And I do still like former Gov. Romney with his personal customs of high expectations of excellence, and his experience as a successful administrator--of business, of the Olympics, and of state government. He seems to me to have the best qualifications to be president of anyone running. But Huckabee could definitely be a "sleeper."

One of the things going against Huckabee is his name. It sounds too much like "Hick." Sort of a cross between Hick and Huckleberry--real Mark Twainish. Especially since he is from the south. Upon hearing or reading his name, you almost instantly get a picture in your mind of a tall, gawky, red-faced man with a big adam's apple, dancing around with his jacket off and sleeves rolled up, preaching hellfire and brimstone. Since it is too late to change his name, Huckabee's main need is simply to be seen and heard more, so voters can form a different mental image of him.

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Jesse
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Fairly or not, Christians in General and Fundies in particular *are* the target of ridicule.

What should that have to do with Government?

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Ron Lambert
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The possibility of government-sponsored persecution.
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kelcimer
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http://poligazette.com/2007/12/24/bush-aide-slams-huckabee/

quote:
This is a man who, in 1998, when explaining to a Baptist pastors conference why he got involved in politics, answered, “I got into politics because I knew government didn’t have the real answers, that the real answers lie in accepting Jesus Christ into our lives. . . . I hope we answer the alarm clock and take this nation back for Christ.”

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kelcimer
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http://www.alamogordonews.com/opinion/ci_7789952

quote:
No thank you to Mr. Huckabee. Under Mike Huckabee, Arkansas saw a 37 percent increase in sales tax, a 16 percent increase in gas tax and a 103 percent increase in cigarette taxes.

According to the Arkansas Department of Finance and Administration, the state suffered a net tax increase of $505 million under Huckabee. With Mike as governor, state spending exploded more than 65 percent between 1996 and 2004, which just happened to be more than three times the inflation rate. State debt rose by almost $1 billion and the number of government workers rose 20 percent.


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Jesse
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quote:
The possibility of government-sponsored persecution.
That's not really an answer, Ron, but then I could have been more clear.

Do you believe it is any way the job of Government to prevent "Christians" however defined from being the target of ridicule?

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TomDavidson
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quote:
For a long time, Christians have felt they were being unfairly targeted for ridicule and abuse...
You recognize that this is ridiculous, though, right?
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by kelcimer:
I am mystified as to Huckabee's rise.

It seems to be built on the argument "I'm religious and therefore am conservative".

It was inevitable. Romney's a strong social conservative, but he wears magic underpants and therefore isn't a "real" christian as far as the religious right are concerned. McCain's religious credentials are dubious and feel too much like a conscious attempt to re-brand himself. And Guiliani's pro-choice and a catholic to boot. I was saying months ago that the Republicans would have a dark horse candidate who comes from out of nowhere late in the race, because the evangelical crowd didn't like any of the frontrunners and sooner or later they'd anoint their champion. Huckabee just got lucky by being the right guy in the right place at the right time.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveS:
I still think he is unelectable, but I do feel a twinge of anxiety.

The general public don't know anything about Huckabee except that he's "that fundie guy", so I wouldn't lose any sleep over him. Unless of course you're a Republican, in which case I guess you might be a bit concerned about a complete turkey winning the primaries.
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Ron Lambert
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Jesse, if ridicule is just lampoon, like on Saturday Night Live, or Scrappleface.com, then I see no problem. But if ridicule goes over the line into hate speech, and is a part of a concerted effort to oppose and defame and incite violence, then government has an obligation to intervene, as it has done for many minorities.

Tom, what do you mean?

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RickyB
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"a concerted effort to oppose"? I agree with defame and incite, but a concerted effort to oppose?
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TomDavidson
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I mean that while Christians may feel like they've been unfairly targeted for ridicule and abuse, they haven't, and that this opinion of theirs is ridiculous.
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Ron Lambert
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Tom, surely you don't believe that every parody, satire, and stereotype of Christians is literally true. For example, if you were to try to ridicule me or my church for believing in an angry, hateful God who is eager to burn people in hell for eternity, you would be mistaken. While the criticism may be valid for some Christians, I and my church do not believe in an angry, hateful God, we do not believe in an ever-burning hell, and we believe God is not yet ending the world, because He wants everyone to have a chance to turn away from evil and let go of it, so He can destroy it without destroying them.
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KnightEnder
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Oh Tom, sometimes we think so much alike it scares me. Thank God for the other times [Smile] . I made the same comment/joke over Christmas dinner explaining why my rich neighbors only put up the barest of white lighted Christmas decorations. I'm not sure all of Stacy's relatives realized I was poking fun at the Christians. Stacy did. That's what was important.

Hey, I promised not to make a scene. Not to make jokes that go over their heads. (And they are all living on my land now anyway. [Smile] One Thanksgiving I threw my father and father-in-law out of my house (Stacy's real dad, the ex-pro football player, the last man standing, had his face buried in his plate; priceless.) Okay, I didn't so much throw them out as told them they could leave if they didn't like what I was doing; parenting (for my dad) and I said a curse word in front of my father-in-law.)

But in all seriousness they are good people and we had a great time. Especially considering it was the first Christmas dinner ever without Stacy's mom. I think at one point or other during the dinner we all missed her presence.

KE

[ December 26, 2007, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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TommySama
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KE, for a Christmas gift I sent my girlfriends mom a super scathing letter. She freaked out, it was beautiful.
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KnightEnder
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Wow, I fear for your future mother-in-law. [Smile]

At our first dinner together Stacy's mom (who has just passed away) asked me if I was a "yes man", because I was being so polite. I almost bit a hole in my lip to keep from laughing. But we got along great, even after she found out what I was really like. If it wasn't for her I probably would have starved the first year of our marriage. Luckily the great cook gene that Stacy got from her mother eventually kicked in.

In my experience I don't see very man succesful relationships where the guy hates the way a girls mother acts. I'm afraid I believe the old cliche; if you want to see what your girl is going to be like in 20 years, look at her mother.

How did your girlfriend feel about the letter?

KE

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