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Author Topic: Are You Offended ?
Star Pilot 111
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You probably know by now Obama is under fire from some who feel offended by his speech the other day. After listening to it many have said it was wonderful etc. but after examination it seems he said some things that come from those "Typical" people who, because they are educated to some degree, think they are psychologically and sociologically competent enough to be able to group all blacks as "Typical" and all whites as "Typical".

When I first saw Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity I thought they were interesting. After I listened for a short time and became familiar with them I felt they were "Typical" idiots, with attitudes and beliefs offensive to me.

It seems that the more I get to know Obama the more I think he may not be ready yet to be president. I don't think he's an idiot. I think he's very educated. I don't think he is wise yet. Wisdom is the proper use of education. That comes with time. I think in a speech he should not be grouping all people of a particular color, race, or nationality as having "Typical" traits, unless his expertise is in that area and he has studies that show his conclusions may be true.

I think I'm offended by what he said. I'm definitely disappointed. [Confused]

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Colin JM0397
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I've come to the conclusion these days that "I'm offended" is simply a code word for "what you are saying goes against my core beliefs and I deem your words to not be in accordance with my ideals."

In other words, "I judge your offense to be not agreeing with me so I don't want to listen to anything you have to say".

Or, more succinctly, "You are disagreeable and your opinions don't matter".

It all comes down to judgment. If I am offended, it's probably because I've made some sort of judgment about what someone did or said, so I'm going completely dismiss what the person said or did. Being offended turns things completely emotional and shuts off rational thought about what the action or thought was.

This is not to say you should not decide someone is disagreeable, but you should evaluate why you think so rationally. Our resident Buddhist could tell you better, but, essentially, when something bothers you, you resist the urge to lash out and react. Instead, you bring the thoughts into your center and contemplate why you are having a negative reaction by thinking through what it is you are really bothered by. The end result of this exercise is usually coming to the conclusion that what offends you is actually something within yourself. Adjust your attitude internally and the offense is removed.

IMO, "I'm offended" has become the adult version of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!!".

Disagree all you want, but lets drop this silly culture of offense to everything we disagree with. Star Pilot, that isn’t to say you haven’t thought it through… Yet, in my experience, very, very few ever really do think through why something offends them.

[ March 21, 2008, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Colin JM0397 ]

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Viking_Longship
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I think he was drawing on his observations of certain trends. Having grown up among working class white and black people he reflected a lot of what i have observed (and lived through).

I don't think he was saying "all" people of these groups, but he was saying "many" and I would imagine that this was based as much on his own life experience as his education.

So no I wasn't offended.

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Jesse
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Had he done that, you'd have a point.
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Star Pilot 111
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Colin
I have thought it through. I guess I am only disappointed. But you see there is more to it. I'm kind of mad with him that he gave his detractors some thing to work. Most of his speech was good. He tried to hard in some areas of it, and didn't try hard enough in the part in question.

to Viking
I know what you mean exactly but when you are running to be nominated to run for president it's a big mistake to say something that some one has to explain what you mean. My point was he doesn't have expertise or credentials in this area to know what he implied is true.
Big mistake in his speech. But I have a feeling we won't hear much more about it. I think the media does favor him more than Hillary for some reason. If they don't keep it in the headlines it will go away.

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Jesse
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Obviously, they favor him greatly.

That's probably why we haven't heard a whisper about the Peter F Paul case, or anything about the Judicial Watch lawsuit untill Clinton lost, or so much as a rumble about Bill's Dubai speaking fees, or his working as a consultant for the firm representing Dubai Ports World and the very time his wife was on the Senate floor denouncing the deal, or why the revelation that First Lady Clinton had at least five meetings where she worked to push NAFTA through....

Yeah. It's media bias.

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Kent
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quote:
Obama's defense rests on moral equivalence. Sure, says Obama, there's Wright, but at the other "end of the spectrum" there's Geraldine Ferraro, opponents of affirmative action and his own white grandmother, "who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe." But did she shout them in a crowded theater to incite, enrage and poison others?

"I can no more disown (Wright) than I can my white grandmother." What exactly was grandma's offense? Jesse Jackson himself once admitted to the fear he feels from the footsteps of black men on the street. And Harry Truman was known to use epithets for blacks and Jews in private, yet is revered for desegregating the armed forces and recognizing the first Jewish state since Jesus' time. He never spread racial hatred. Nor did grandma.

Yet Obama compares her to Wright. Does he not see the moral difference between the occasional private expression of the prejudices of one's time and the use of a public stage to spread racial lies and race hatred?

Answer this, senator: If Wright is a man of the past, why would you expose your children to his vitriolic divisiveness? This is a man who curses America and who proclaimed moral satisfaction in the deaths of 3,000 innocents at a time when their bodies were still being sought at Ground Zero. It is not just the older congregants who stand and cheer and roar in wild approval of Wright's rants, but young people as well. Why did you give $22,500 just two years ago to a church run by a man of the past who infects the younger generation with precisely the racial attitudes and animus you say you have come unto us to transcend?"

I'm not offended, just disappointed and question Obama's judgment.

[ March 21, 2008, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Kent ]

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Viking_Longship
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Star Pilot

What more credentials do you want? Statistical analysis? He's a biracial man from the USA. He's had to prove himself to both communities. I think he's justified and was quite fair in his observations.

He is NEVER going to give ANY speech of substance his detractors won't use against him. That's politics. (The Gettysburg Address was used against Lincoln. That's how it goes.)

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Everard
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"This is a man who curses America and who proclaimed moral satisfaction in the deaths of 3,000 innocents at a time when their bodies were still being sought at Ground Zero."

As far as I'm aware, what WRight said is that the US brought on this terrorist attack because of its own terrorism. Do you have more information that shows Wright was morally satisfied? If not, once again I'm going to have to say that the attack here on Obama is attack dog reaction, and not anything of substance.

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Kent
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Everard, you are trying to tell me that Wright is not morally suspect and is therefore defensible? Either Wright is divisive and out of line or he is morally defensible, which are you asserting? Once I understand that I can work on the discussion of what Wright said or didn't say that is right/wrong.

[ March 21, 2008, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Kent ]

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Everard
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"Either Wright is divisive and out of line or he is morally defensible, which are you asserting?"

Why is it either or?

I think Obama hit it correctly, and I can't say it more eloquently.

But I also think that trying to tie Obama to Wright's few morally suspect statements is... freaking stupid at best, at this point.

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Kent
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The question is one of Obama's judgment. I have watched the videos of Wright preaching and I believe that anyone who supports Wright and calls him a mentor is lacking in judgment. Obama is not a bad guy, Wright is not inciting violence, but both are lacking in judgment. That is the issue.
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Everard
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How MUCH of these videos have you watched? An hour a week every week for 20 years? If not, then how can you pass judgement on whether or not he's a worthy mentor? A mentor is someone who acts for life, not for 10 minutes of video clips taken from a period of 20 years.

I think that you're saying that this shows a lack of judgement on Obama's part says more about you then about Obama.

I think "white america" needs to understand that if Obama went to a predominantly black church, then he was going to hear statements like this, at least a few times over the last 20 years.

And if you think thats a problem, then I honestly think you need to open your eyes.

[ March 21, 2008, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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Kent
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You're probably right. I can only judge what I see.
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Viking_Longship
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Kent
If this is the best you can come up with on Obabma displaying bad jusdgement he's got Clinton beat hands down and probably McCain too.

Kent, have you considered the fact that the sermon's in question were only a few in 20 years? I think if you aren't satisfied with Obama's statements you should check out Hukabees. If neither satisfy you you have an easy out. Don't vote for him.

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Viking_Longship
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Ev, you beat me to it
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KnightEnder
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How do you say "false dichotomy"? ****, how do you spell it?

KE

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Kent
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Moral equivalency, yeah I get it.
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Jesse
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What's in question isn't whole sermons, it's tiny snippets there of.

Somehow, the Godamn America get's cut off before the "unless she changes her ways".

Anyway, if you think Obama was trying to justify Wrights comments by means of his grandmothers, or Ferraros, it shows just how badly you've sunk into a worldview in which every explination is merely a search for an excuse.

Comparishuns are sometimes made for eludicashun, not refutashun or condemnashun.

It's funny, you know, when Obama says "even the woman who loves ME more than anything on earth is sometimes scared of black men" and it's twisted into an attack on his grandmother, rather than *an illustrative example of how even the BEST people can have problems with the issue of race*.

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Everard
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Yes, Kent, you can only judge by what you see. And if you want to judge FAIRLY, then you'll look for more. And you'll look at the person you're voting for or against. And if you have questions, you'll ask the candidate, and look at his record. And in this case, what you'll find is that Obama has NEVER displayed the characteristics you find objectionable in revered wright. And he's distanced himself as much as possible from the person who "brought him to jesus," without saying that the person is entirely a bad person.

And if you still have a problem with Obama after his speech, and after a fair look at Wright and Obama, because of his association with Wright... then, as I've said before, you're either dishonest, idiotic, racist, trolling, attack dogging, or some combination.

And the key there is "fair look." Based on what I'm seeing from ornery conservatives, I don't think you folks are giving obama or wright a fair look. I honestly don't. In part because the articles being quoted show that the people writing the columns are either totally uninformed, or dishonest. And if the opinions being expressed in those columns are the opinions held by the people posting those column, as stated by the people posting them,then all I can do is think poorly of the people continuing to attack or question Obama over this.

I simply do not see a way that an informed person of good will can still be attacking Obama over this. Maybe thats a failing on my part. But maybe not.

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Jesse
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So, there's a two minute montage of quotes clearly taken out of context.

Every one of them, very, very clearly taken out of context, and the montage clearly designed to elicit an emotional reaction.

How does anyone in their right mind indulge in the emotional reaction they know to be desired by a propogandist, without looking for context, if they've got half a brain and a broadband connection?

One of the most offensive statements in that montage? Wright is quoting someone else, and he sources the quote. Isn't that kind of editing pretty misleading?

[ March 21, 2008, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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msquared
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Jesse

On a tanget, The Pope had that happen to him a while back when he was talking about Islam.

My biggest problem with all this is that it detracts from the real issues conservatives should have with Obama's policies. I am almost emberassed by the time and effort put into this small thing. And I know the other conservatives will get on my for my saying this, but this is going to be a non issue so let's not waste any more time on it.

msquared

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Kent
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You guys really shouldn't be worried about what I think, I live in the reddest county in the union; my vote for or against Obama doesn't matter. You should be working hard to convince other people in other states that Obama isn't racist or doesn't have poor judgment. His momentum in the polls has vanished and Clinton is now neck-in-neck in North Carolina where Obama previously had a commanding lead. I understand that you are distraught by what you see as an unfair view of Obama, but I'm the least of your concern.
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Viking_Longship
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Everard

They finally got something on Obama after months of him being a teflon candidate. They won't let it go, they may not get anything else.

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Everard
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"You guys really shouldn't be worried about what I think,"

I'm worried inso far as I interact with you.

I also wrote a long letter to all of my superdelegates about what I think on wednesday night.

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Viking_Longship
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Actully it's interesting that this broke right after Ferraro's "They should appologize to me!" THink it's coincidence?
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kenmeer livermaile
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Obama is in the unique position of speaking truth to power AND the people and, so far, rather than being lynched for it, being catapulted to the position of highest official power we have.

We live in interesting times.

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Jesse
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Kent, you really need to learn to read polls.
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Kent
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You're right Jesse, I'm an idiot.
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G2
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I am deeply saddened more than anything else. I have friends of a variety of races and thought my friends that were black held me in the same esteem and with the same respect I held them. Based on the feedback in this forum and the assurances of the MSM that this is a common belief among blacks, I can no longer trust my black friends. It appears they hate me because of my race despite the fact I have done nothing to warrant that hatred.

It'll be a long time before I can accept the courtesy or politeness of a black person and not wonder about the seething hatred they very likely conceal from me over issues that occurred long before either of us was born and have nothing to do with me. I must now be constantly on guard that what I say is going to viewed through the lens of racial division popularized by Rev Wright and, apparently, virtually every black church in America. Are my compliments deserved or are they pandering? Am I offering constructive criticism or am I just another whitey in the US of KKKA keeping blacks down? The dialog between races has been set back a generation.

Thanks for that Rev Wright, Obama and all their defenders here. Instead of bringing races closer together, you've driven us apart.

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KidB
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quote:
Based on the feedback in this forum and the assurances of the MSM that this is a common belief among blacks, I can no longer trust my black friends. It appears they hate me because of my race despite the fact I have done nothing to warrant that hatred.

I think that's a huge and unwarrented leap. have your black friends ever betrayed you personally?

I think what's happening here is that you realize that black people see your whiteness in a way that you hadn't considered before, and you find it threatening. But you shouldn't. They always saw you in this way, and yet they still befriended you. Nothing has changed, except your naivete.

quote:
It'll be a long time before I can accept the courtesy or politeness of a black person and not wonder about the seething hatred they very likely conceal from me over issues that occurred long before either of us was born and have nothing to do with me. I must now be constantly on guard that what I say is going to viewed through the lens of racial division popularized by Rev Wright and, apparently, virtually every black church in America. Are my compliments deserved or are they pandering?
You can't see it now, but this reaction you're having - which sounds like an overhwhelming emotional backlash - is actually a first-step in your awareness of what race really means. Every white person needs to go through this.

Yes, people, not only black people, harbor opinions and negative thoughts about you that they never say to your face. That is really an inescapable part of the human condition, even when race is removed from the equation.

That being said, I don't think your friends harbor any "seething hatred" towards you. They're your freinds, aren't they? Ask them. You might make them uncomfortable at first, but if you are courageous enought to have an honest conversation, it might bring you closer. Or it could start a fight. But it's worth a try if they are good friends.

[ March 21, 2008, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: KidB ]

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KidB
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quote:
Thanks for that Rev Wright, Obama and all their defenders here. Instead of bringing races closer together, you've driven us apart.
They are apart. Don't shoot the messenger. Learning the truth of someone else's feelings can bring you closer.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Thanks for that Rev Wright, Obama and all their defenders here. Instead of bringing races closer together, you've driven us apart."

Aw, you poor pawnish minion of that wretched liberal media. Anybody got some Bactine? Boy's gotta boo-boo!

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KidB
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quote:
virtually every black church in America
No, not every. Not even most, but many, perhaps a substantial minority (more northern and urban, but I'm just guessing).
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TomDavidson
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quote:
I understand that you are distraught by what you see as an unfair view of Obama, but I'm the least of your concern.
Not quite. It's the dittoheads, not the moderates, that are keeping this thing in the media. If the conservatives would stop distorting the situation, it'd die a natural death. As it is, though, they're dragging it out as long as possible to do as much damage as possible to the Dem frontrunner -- which is, I suppose, only to be expected.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by KidB:
You can't see it now, but this reaction you're having - which sounds like an overhwhelming emotional backlash - is actually a first-step in your awareness of what race really means. Every white person needs to go through this.

That is such a load of ****.
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DonaldD
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2000: lying lock-box 2-by-4. Alcoholic chimpanzee moron. (out of wedlock black bastard if we count the primaries.)
2004: Lying anti-american cheese-eating fake hero. Alcoholic chimp moron who talks to God.
2008: 'nuff said.

Why do you people allow yourselves to be so easily manipulated?

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Colin JM0397
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Because they feel their "side" really does have some discernable differences from the opposing "side"; it doesn't.
Divide and conquer works so well!

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KidB
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quote:
That is such a load of ****.
Why?
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Viking_Longship
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G2
Wow I am so incredibly guilty for driving the races apart by suggesting that maybe Obama had a personal conection to his church and might have some cause not to betray his minister in a national forum.

I am sure Obama feels just terrible that he gave a speech that spoke openly and honetly about what black and white people may be angry with each other about.

G2 I am sure your black friends like you if they hang out with you. If you are really worried about it just ask them if they are mad at you for being white.

Now seeing as you've done as much as anyone on this forum to keep this topic going would you mind taking your share of this guilt?

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