Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Hannah Montana scandal (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Hannah Montana scandal
0Megabyte
Member
Member # 1217

 - posted      Profile for 0Megabyte   Email 0Megabyte       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Funny, yes. I have no idea how old you are, flydye. I'm sure knowing your real age would make me feel like some mere upstart neophyte, which I suppose I am.

But anyway, it's a useful formula, one that I will pay attention to.

Using it, I'd set a basic limit to my children's dating. Under 14, no way. At 14, only with someone their own age. And so on, as the thingie says, unless there's some terribly convincing argument to not follow it.

Posts: 2668 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LetterRip
Member
Member # 310

 - posted      Profile for LetterRip   Email LetterRip   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Apparently from the xkcd comments it was previously popularized on loveline

quote:
that creepiness dating rule is from adam carolla on loveline a few years back. ive been using that for a while. pretty good rule.
LetterRip
Posts: 8287 | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
Ricky, it's 18 in most of the US. [/QB]

if you're referring to the age of consent, jesse it's not 18 in most of the usa, its lower, like 16, or even lower ("In some U.S. states a lower age applies when the age gap between partners is small, or when the older partner is below a certain age (usually 18 or 21).")

Average age for the usa is 16.20 or 16.67 if you take the higher age thing.

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

If it wasn't about that at all, regard this as not written?

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TSG, averaging the various states does not reflect where most of the US lives.
Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
TSG, averaging the various states does not reflect where most of the US lives.

That STILL doesn't make it 18 in MOST of the usa.

In itself, your statement reflects a lot about 'most' of your math skills (or lack thereof? [Wink] ). I sincerely hope that it isn't accompanied by the usual present-day smugness about that lack.

Okay, fuggedaboudid.

If you had actually looked at that table, your vast mathematical skills would have revealed that under 67 million ppl live in states where it's 18

Arizona
California
North Dakota
Oregon
Tennessee
Virginia
Wisconsin

while the rest does not.
It's even 14 in 6 other states, all of them Red States. Which explains the whole FLDS drama a whole lot better.

So, 67 million. I'll leave it up to your math skills to decide which is 'most of the US'.
You ARE sloppy. [Wink]

[ May 12, 2008, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: TheSteelenGeneral ]

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's it?

But I do agree with the article that the pic evokes a Lolita quality. And maybe people who know who she is and are invested in her for their kids feels different but I don't see the big deal.

I also agree with Omeg's scale.

27 dating my 17 year old daughter? I agree with OR.

Where's the link to the Angelina nude photos?

KE

[ May 12, 2008, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jesse
Member
Member # 1860

 - posted      Profile for Jesse   Email Jesse   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Florida, with close in age exemption, is 18.

Idaho is 18 period.

New Jersey is 18 if the adult is over 22.

Oregon has a three year exception, otherwise, it's a misdameanor to have intercourse with someone under 18.

Tennesse, 4 year exemption, otherwise 18.

Virginia, 18 with close in age exemption.

Wyoming is essentially 18 due to a complicated court ruling.

Many more States will prosecute for contributing to the deliquency of a minor, even though that minor has reached the technical age of consent.

Close in age exemptions do not change the age of consent.

Someones sloppy. Not a good idea to go by the first outdated website you run across.

[ May 12, 2008, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

Posts: 11410 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jesse,
first of all, what are you on about? I MENTIONED Oregon, Tennessee AND Virginia as states where it's 18.
2nd. even with those other states, it STILL doesn't make it MOST of the usa, it applies to 95.708.985 ppl.

At least I provide links, you don't.
And I have to take your word for it that it's outdated? Don't think so.

And sorry about that thing about your math skills, I shouldn't have made fun of that.

I guess that makes it 3-0 for me, including the other thread.

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
vulture
Member
Member # 84

 - posted      Profile for vulture   Email vulture   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheSteelenGeneral:

And sorry about that thing about your math skills, I shouldn't have made fun of that.

I guess that makes it 3-0 for me, including the other thread.

Congratulations, you have won the forum. Here is your prize.... ->

Now that we've all acknowledged that you are a 'winner', can we get back to having interesting discussions without the pissing contest?

Posts: 1768 | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
why thanks vulture! [Wink] [Smile]

I teach business and I like numbers, it always annoys me greatly when ppl are sloppy with numbers and statistics. I really dislike it when ppl say that anybody can lie with statistics. You CAN'T, not if you don't lie about what they mean.

Sorry, it's a thing with me. I'll stop now.


For the record, my view on Hannah: if you see a photo of a girl with a bedsheet and think Lolita ... says more about the viewer than anything else.

Also, does the target group (8 year olds) have even a faint understanding what Lolitesque means, who Nabokov was and all that? Chances are, that they are curious now, and start googling it, yes.

[ May 12, 2008, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: TheSteelenGeneral ]

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
just a girl with a bedsheet, not necessarily. a girl nude save for the bedsheet, making bedroom eyes... yes, sorry. I call a spade a spade even if the campus affirmative action office doesn't like it. [Smile]

8 year olds? maybe not, tho I don't know how far things have changed since I knew what was happening in those age groups. 10-11 year olds, which from what I read are also HM's target audience? They know from Lolita, bro. Maybe not the book, but the phenomenon for sure.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's not "a girl with a bedsheet". It is precisely what that picture is supposed to evoke. The photographer knew it, she knew it, I know it, and if you looked at it and have ever heard of Lolita let alone read the book or seen the movie you'd know it too. Although I do plead guilty to be attracted to hot young girls, See Daruma's Posts, but like Ricky said just being attracted doesn't mean a grown man can't restrain himself.

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Its erotic imagery without crossing our legal boundaries. The people in all of this I have a real problem with are the parents making a stink. Sorry, you have no right to control what someone else's 15 year old daughter does to make money, unless you change the laws. And you have no right to expect that someone your children look up to won't do things that you don't want them to see.

You don't have to buy it if you don't want to, though.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Although I do plead guilty to be attracted to hot young girls"

If people didn't want to do it, they wouldn't have made a law against it.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Or as David says, when Bathsheba mentions anal sex: "That.... that's so disgusting there's isn't even anything against it in the torah!"

(God Knows, Joseph Heller)

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stevarooni
Member
Member # 6053

 - posted      Profile for Stevarooni   Email Stevarooni   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
Its erotic imagery without crossing our legal boundaries. The people in all of this I have a real problem with are the parents making a stink. Sorry, you have no right to control what someone else's 15 year old daughter does to make money, unless you change the laws. And you have no right to expect that someone your children look up to won't do things that you don't want them to see.

You don't have to buy it if you don't want to, though.

Don't they have a right to make a stink about it, though? Isn't one of the fundamental caveats of the right to expression the right to express oneself back, with equal and opposite raspberries?
Posts: 536 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sure, they have that right. I just think they're idiots for complaining that the girl is a role model and so shouldn't do this stuff. Umm, sorry... the mistake is your own for letting your daughter think of a celebrity as a role model.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
Sure, they have that right. I just think they're idiots for complaining that the girl is a role model and so shouldn't do this stuff. Umm, sorry... the mistake is your own for letting your daughter think of a celebrity as a role model.

Completely agree.
Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That gets into an argument about role models. Parents want and need to have folks they can point to as examples of proper action (though the definition of "proper" varies according to the person involved). As the parents are flawed creatures, and distance blurs flaws, they look for a highly visible figure. Once athletes paid the price of hypocrisy for their vice, i.e. The Babe. Not anymore...unless self indulgence and brutality is your metric of "proper".

The squealing you are hearing from the parents is only matched at the outrage over having Obama dragged off his pedestal. It is with rueful confession that supposedly sophisticated adults found themselves buying into the hype and making him a role model...

It is a human thing, and not necessarily wrong. I'm sure if I scratched deep enough, I'd find a figure inside everyone who they treat as a role model...and they would be just as outraged or betrayed if their object of veneration suddenly changed the philosophy which brought this respect in the first place...

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TommySama
Member
Member # 2780

 - posted      Profile for TommySama   Email TommySama       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Unless if they have little or no expectations. For instance, my role model is Greg House. See?

Sorry, as far as politicians go, Obama is pretty good. Just because he doesn't hang out with the same kinds of racists you tend to doesn't make him evil ;-).

Tell your kids to look up to Jesus. At least there aren't any videos or pictures floating around of him having orgies with little boys (just his followers.)

Posts: 6396 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jesus was involve in orgies? Hey, I might give this Christianity thing another look. [Smile]

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Just because he doesn't hang out with the same kinds of racists you tend to doesn't make him evil ;-)."

WTF?

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Gotta remember when dealing with TommySam, fly, that he does double-back flips for relaxation. He means: both sides of the political aisled are deeply invested in racism (because our populace is and they must appeal to our populace).

The finger of racism (and other 'thou shalt not-isms') is almost always pointed away from oneself, not toward.

That's more nicely said, and with more explanatory nuance than TommySam would care for, not to mention that I may be totally misreading him, but too bad: I'm still right.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because of the smiley. My normal reaction would have been a bit more visceral.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it was a non-specific "you".
Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Or as David says, when Bathsheba mentions anal sex: "That.... that's so disgusting there's isn't even anything against it in the torah!"

(God Knows, Joseph Heller)

OMG that book was hilarious! Isn't that the one where he asks his daughter:
"Don't they teach you anything in school?"
upon which she replies:
"They try to, but we outsmart them"
[Big Grin]

Or is that from the other non-Catch 22 title of Heller? :?

I've been trying to find a torrent for those books for ages, but only Catch22 comes up! [Frown]

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
The squealing you are hearing from the parents is only matched at the outrage over having Obama dragged off his pedestal.

Something which the Obama camp have always tried to deflect from the very beginning, because they knew there was the trap of the "Wise Negro"! [Smile]

See "Ghost", "the Green Mile" , and almost any film with Morgan Freeman for "Wise Negro"-reference. or google it. (Million Dollar Baby? Haven't seen it, but heard it was in that schtick)

The only ones who r trying to keep Obama ON that pedestal are Reps like rush limbaw, for obvious reasons.

Besides, I didn't hear much outrage, certainly not in Hanna Montana is a big Ho kind of volumes. What I heard and read was more of a "I TOLD you so" sort of meme.

[ May 14, 2008, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: TheSteelenGeneral ]

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bring up my post. or bump
Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 945

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dude, I keep hoping this thread will die. Thanks for nothing.
Posts: 6847 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
SHOW ME HER BOOBIES!!!!
Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can't find Wise Negro. I do find Magical Negro.

Dumbledore wasn't only gay, he was an albino Negro.

Rock on!

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
why die? I think it's interesting how mothers, media, gossip crowd succeed time and time again in highlighting absolutely no-nudity and making it seem filthy.
It's like we're snugly back in the 19th century again.

Combined with large scale apologism of Republican David Vitter's hypocrisy (Campaigning on 'Family Values' then going to the whores) by the republican party, media etc. this is absolutely fascinating.

Leibovitz made photos of Whoopi in a tub of milk and of Keith Herring fully body painted. This is not art?

[ May 17, 2008, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: TheSteelenGeneral ]

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Art with a fifteen year old is different from art with an adult.

I think that most people are outraged that here parents were there and let her do it.

Most people, when asked if they could have their fifteen year old daughter take off her shirt for a picture would call the police.

Posts: 3719 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I saw nothing prurient in the Hannah images. The context in which they are interpreted -- Hollywood celebrity culture -- is so biased to the prurient that we insist non seeing the in their capacity to suggest dishabille rather than a graceful tribute to burgeoning young womanhood, in which all wee see are her back and face.

Dozens of young teen girls post images of themselves on the internet that are quite explicitly prurient and lacking artistic grace.

But Hannah's a STAR, see, and stars are dirty. They are designed to float high above us so we can aspire to them and, finding that we can't share their elevation, we then try to bring them down.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please. Look harder. You're not that old. I know you pride yourself on being contrary, but a naked teenage girl with just been ****ed hair is supposed to be sexy. It is what it is.

I double-checked with Stacy to make sure it wasn't just me or a guys eyes and her reaction was; "Oh please. Or course, that is supposed to be sexual."

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Of course it addresses sexuality. Miley menstruates, you know. Has budding boobies. Has probably made out and probably been finger-****ed.

It's the idea, that a family acknowledging this well known aspect of nubile girls wanting to appear sexy, is somehow dirty that I reject.

When I refer to Hollywood context, I refer to the inevitable Britney/Lindsay comparisons. Hollywood context.

Your typical high school senior photograph of today would be seen as sleazy fifty years ago.

Sexual isn't prurient.

Prurient: : marked by or arousing an immoderate or unwholesome interest or desire; especially : marked by, arousing, or appealing to sexual desire.

Nothing wrong with a young girl displaying her young virginal sexuality. It is the media lens that creates the prurience. You create the prurience. Talking about it creates the prurience. The image itself is sweet, and yes, sexy. Does that mean that miley is appealing to my inner pedophile?

I am sick and tired of people blaming media fore their own interpretations of reality. Those eyes in your head, and that head they're in? Them is YOURS.

Me, I KNOW I wanna see miley's boobies, and I KNOW she didn't show 'em to me. Instead, she did what most girls in high school did: flaunted her budding young sexual beauty without revealing it.

Old as the hills.

Like me [Wink]

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Smile] Okay, now I get it.

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What really gets me is that all those protesters probably have no problems with cheerleaders walking around school in skirts that come halfway their thighs. What, this is the epitome of modesty?
Get real.

quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
[QB] Art with a fifteen year old is different from art with an adult.

It's very hard to come up with a definition of art, but I'm sure that there are no age limits.
Adults can be just as exploited, as a photograph 34 pooping one year olds could be art.
I bet that many of the protesters would love Maxfield Parrish and all his Lolitesque pictures. Double standards.

quote:

Most people, when asked if they could have their fifteen year old daughter take off her shirt for a picture would call the police.

Dude, not "most". All people. And if it were some random person, they'd be right.
However, Hannah Taylor-Gordon went "All Eve" at 16/17 for a film, and even Natalie Portman went nude for Mike Nichols and Milos Forman. Nobody doubts her or their credentials and I think Annie Leibowitz has the most artistic credentials in the photoworld. Let's get real here, it's a great feat for an utterly middle-of-the-road if not mediocre singer and actor like Cyrus to get Leibowitz to photograph her.

[ May 18, 2008, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: TheSteelenGeneral ]

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
SHOW ME THE TITTIES!!!
Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheSteelenGeneral
Member
Member # 5530

 - posted      Profile for TheSteelenGeneral   Email TheSteelenGeneral   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Still no answer on the cheerleaders.
Did I mention that Gordon, Portman and Leibowitz are all 'good' Jewish girls? [Wink]

Also, that photo doesn't show more skin than a bathing suit and even less than a bikini. So what, photo's of 15 year old girls in swim wear are bordering on pedophilia?

There was this interesting case of the 15 year old girl who posted SELF-made nude photos of herself on the net. The local DA was seriously considering prosecuting her for the making of kiddie porn.
And i think she got kicked out of school.

Posts: 1486 | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1