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Author Topic: Questions you'd like to ask Obama:
kenmeer livermaile
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"But I see you are one who goes for the cheap, obvious, jokingly/serious, pedantic put-down.

Maybe not the only one. But still..."

Wayward's pretty fair, so he usually replies in kind to unkind.

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Fatuousness is colorblind.

See, now this is a sly bit of derision that engages the mind and lifts the commentary above the level of a schoolyard scrap in the dirt.

Thank you for distinguishing yourself above the others.


[Smile]

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"But I see you are one who goes for the cheap, obvious, jokingly/serious, pedantic put-down.

Maybe not the only one. But still..."

Wayward's pretty fair, so he usually replies in kind to unkind.

"Wayward's pretty fair, so he usually replies in kind to unkind."

The truth should not be sacrificed to a clever turn of phrase, no matter how pleasant.

My comment was slightly self-deprecatory; not unkind at all.

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DaveS
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Ruo, you are the target of a lot of derision here. If you would like to be taken as a serious person, why don't you take a serious whack at the question I asked. I think it is extremely important. Here it is again:
quote:
That's a different issue than asking how 5+ years of torture and captivity altered McCain's mind. He has suppressed all records from his POW experience and tends to get extremely angry when pressed about it. If you want to know him better, you should ask those questions.
Practical questions:
1. Should McCain be required to release his records from his time as a POW?
2. Should he be required to explain how 5 years in captivity affected him then and what lingering psychological effects he still carries from the experience?

Do you agree that these are important questions to ask and have full answers to?

3. Further, he only allowed cursory examination of 7000 pages of his medical records for two hours by reporters who were not allowed to record anything they read. The pages of many of the reports were not numbered and it appeared that pages were missing. Should he be required to release his full medical record, as other candidates have done?

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by beefprime:
quote:
I want the questions answered even if I may not personally care about his smoking habits except as it might indicate one more area of Obama's deceit.
I like how a lot of people like to complain about gotcha journalism, and then someone says something like this. Fascinating.

Edited to add: I'd also like to know the REAL info about Obama smuggling Illudium Pu-36 Explosive Space Modulators to the Martian Syndicates, but only the REAL info. C'mon, lets hear the truth!

It distresses me to realize you believe the questions regarding Obama's mysteries fall into the realm of Sci-Fi.

Until you are able to recognize the importance of character, experience and judgment in a president your vote could be just as meaningful as a vote for Ewok Elf Lordship.

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JoshCrow
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Ruo: Your questions (which are really allegations) would have more merit if you were more interested in the answers and less driven to perform character assassination. So far as I've been reading, you have studiously ignored any legitimate attempt to debunk your allegations about Obama.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
But I see you are one who goes for the cheap, obvious, jokingly/serious, pedantic put-down.
One of the least of my many faults. [Smile]

quote:
The truth should not be sacrificed to a clever turn of phrase, no matter how pleasant.
Except that, to my eyes, I haven't seen you put forth any "truth" in the Questions You Want Answers To. Allegations, innuendo, and such, but no "truth." And much bemoaning the fact that you haven't heard the answers that you want to hear, along with further innuendo that there must be some nefarious reason why you haven't heard them.

With so much lack of substance, what else is there to do with it than use it as fodder for a good turn-of-phrase? It's not really good for anything else. [Razz]

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DaveS
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Ruo, answer my questions? If not, why not?
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beefprime
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quote:
It distresses me to realize you believe the questions regarding Obama's mysteries fall into the realm of Sci-Fi.

Until you are able to recognize the importance of character, experience and judgment in a president your vote could be just as meaningful as a vote for Ewok Elf Lordship.

I might as well vote for Obama then, since he's apparently a black militant communist secret muslim programmed in Indonesia to destroy the American Dream to further the goals of Islamic fundamentalists.

All of this is just as much fiction as Marvin the Martian or the Ewok Elf Lordship.

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"But in the context of being able to disrupt someone's computer and their use of the internet it might be shown in a future hearing that you were colluding with Jesse to deny a McCain supporter access to certain sites and to prevent expressing her/his political beliefs."

I confess. I'm also responsible for any booby sag you might be experiencing, and those funny looks from the neighbor's dog when you walk by.

These magical talents, and more, derive from my Magisterial Shirt of Brown Power. (Don't say I never set you up for an easily misapplied rejoinder.)

As long as you just want to play, ruo, we're fine. Ask me to take seriously, even slightly, your even slightly serious political notions, and I'ma wooden injun of silence.

Let's fuse fantasy and reality here.

One of the distinguishing characteristics that I believe affects Obama supporters (does anyone fess up to being a liberal these days?) more than Conservatives & McCain supporters is an ability to perpetually live in a fantasy world. So, wanting to deal with these issues from a playful perspective is more than an effort to avoid the 'trench warfare' of dealing with them seriously. I see it as typical liberal behavior.

And not that it is all bad, either.

I mean what can be more fun than having fun?

Right?

And there is a time and place for that.

And who knows? You may be right that there may be no better time for it than now in these grim days as the presidential race comes round the bend and before it enters the home stretch.

But, before we settle down (or not) to playing Big Wheel or Slip 'N' Slide I will point out that too many times it has been the liberal's "bubble of self delusion" that has caused our national problems and divisions.

We were so accustomed to seeing things as we WANTED to see them that reality was able to creep up and smack us in the face. Each time with disastrous results.

And though there have been other examples I will list only three of them here.

The first example of the liberal "bubble of self delusion" preventing us from seeing the reality before it smacked us was the attacks of 9/11.

Clinton coulda, shoulda and woulda, but he didn't. Bush has some degree of culpability but for the smartest President to leave OBL undone was largely due to the President's governing by opinion polls.

Because the polls showed the American people wanted ABC Clinton gave us ABC. Where he erred was in not using his superior intelligence (innate AND institutional) to recognize the American people ALWAYS want peace and good times and will do whatever is necessary to find a way to avoid war. But there are times when we must act to prevent greater bloodshed.

And who can doubt that a good deal of bloodshed could have been avoided had Clinton blown up OBL and some foreigners, civilians and some children when the CIA had missiles trained on them in an Afghan Taliban training camp?

Those living in a "bubble of self delusion."

The second example is the "bubble of self delusion" that existed when McCain & the Bush Administration tried to impose some regulations on the Fannie & Freddie actions to prevent their becoming a mess.

At NakedEmperorNews.com you can see a videotape of Democratic Representatives arguing and insulting regulators over and over and over again and arguing that their "bubble of self delusion" was real. That there was no need for Government regulation of F & F.

And what happens when the Liberals are successful in arguing for their "bubble of self delusion"? 9/11 attacks happen. This economic crisis happens.

And what happens when the Liberal's argument for their "bubble of self delusion" is UN-successful?

Nothing!

And brings us to the third example.

The Democrats, led by Pelosi, Reid and Obama wanted to believe there was no danger or downside to an immediate pullout from Iraq during any time these past several years or even now that the certain loss they'd have ushered into being has been avoided. And the fragile lessening of hostilities in Iraq will be threatened by an Obama victory on Nov. 4th.

Nothing has happened in Iraq.

No al Qaeda offensive to push us out. No Iranian revolution spreading into Iraq to overwhelm the Iraqi or American or Coalition forces and forcing up the ante and playing into the hands of the Americans in self delusionary bubbles.

What allows the Democrats to still believe that withdrawal, in spite of the circumstances on the ground, would be a good thing?

A "bubble of self delusion" which refuses to acknowledge the intent of Iranian leadership is to control Iraq and spread extremism.

So, in summary, even though withdrawing from the difficult realities is a pleasant thing to do and an understandable response for Americans in general, the characteristic Liberal tendency of withdrawing into one's own bubble of fantasy, where the realities of the world are kept at bay is not helpful. In fact, the tendency of some Liberals to try to make the world conform to their self-delusion can be considered a source of some of our nation's most serious current problems.

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveS:
Ruo, you are the target of a lot of derision here. If you would like to be taken as a serious person, why don't you take a serious whack at the question I asked. I think it is extremely important. Here it is again:
quote:
That's a different issue than asking how 5+ years of torture and captivity altered McCain's mind. He has suppressed all records from his POW experience and tends to get extremely angry when pressed about it. If you want to know him better, you should ask those questions.
Practical questions:
1. Should McCain be required to release his records from his time as a POW?
2. Should he be required to explain how 5 years in captivity affected him then and what lingering psychological effects he still carries from the experience?

Do you agree that these are important questions to ask and have full answers to?

3. Further, he only allowed cursory examination of 7000 pages of his medical records for two hours by reporters who were not allowed to record anything they read. The pages of many of the reports were not numbered and it appeared that pages were missing. Should he be required to release his full medical record, as other candidates have done?

Just who do you think you are talking to???

An Obamabot who believes the deck should be stacked ONLY in favor of my candidate?

I have said this many times and as I know not everyone reads every thread and every post in every thread and remembers every poster's position on every matter, then I don't mind saying this again here or as many times as it needs to be said.

I am for a COMPLETELY transparent vetting process when it comes to issues that weigh on a person's performance in the job of President of the United States.

Period.

Now, having said that, I will ask you this: What is the purpose and the importance of thoroughly vetting a presidential candidate?

[ October 13, 2008, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: ruo ]

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ruo
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Oh, I forgot one more example of the Liberal "bubble of self delusion."

They are willing to support Obama despite all of the serious questions and murky areas that still exist about him.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
And who can doubt that a good deal of bloodshed could have been avoided had Clinton blown up OBL and some foreigners, civilians and some children when the CIA had missiles trained on them in an Afghan Taliban training camp?
The beauty of hindsight is that, once you've added up all the civilian deaths, you can say things like "If only we'd firebombed Berlin before the war...."

quote:
Nothing has happened in Iraq.
And it only costs two hundred billion dollars a year! A steal, really, for nothing.
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Aris Katsaris
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Ruo, you speak a lot about liberals living a fantasy, but it's usually not liberals who believe that the Flintstones is an accurate representation of prehistorical times.

It's usually not liberals who tend to believe things like "All death and evil came into the world when Eve ate a piece of fruit".

It wasn't a liberal president that looked deeply into Putin's eyes and saw a good soul.

And it wasn't liberals who pushed the fantasy of WMDs in Iraq.

It wasn't a liberal governor that had blessings done on her to protect her from witchcraft -- that was Sarah Palin. It wasn't a liberal governor that claims to have participated in an exorcism that cured a woman from cancer -- that was Bobby Jindal.

And compared to all of the above you contrast what? That liberals *disagree* with you on what the best course of action is regarding to Iraq?

Congrats, that is so much on the same level as the next face of the Republican Party, Bobby "I will perform an exorcism to cure you of cancer" Jindal.

Honestly, I've never seen a more delusional folk than American conservatives. Conservatives in other countries are actually halfway-sane even when one disagrees with them, but American conservatives have allied themselves with the religious nutjobs and the arrogant imperialists to drive themselves completely cuckoo.

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TCB
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Dave said:
quote:
Further, he only allowed cursory examination of 7000 pages of his medical records for two hours by reporters who were not allowed to record anything they read. The pages of many of the reports were not numbered and it appeared that pages were missing.
How on earth can his medical record be 7000 pages long? That's 100 pages every year of his life.
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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Ruo: Your questions (which are really allegations) would have more merit if you were more interested in the answers and less driven to perform character assassination. So far as I've been reading, you have studiously ignored any legitimate attempt to debunk your allegations about Obama.

You may be referring to your attempt to debunk the Saudi prince's alleged connections to Obama.

Whether it be the connections that might have allowed him admission to Harvard despite his grades, the connections that might have helped finance his education despite evidence that he worked while attending Harvard Law (IIRC).

From the pattern of Obama and his campaign of manipulating the truth, whether it be statements made verbally or in print, erasing or changing facts or evidence online, blocking access to websites which have incriminating information about Obama, dogpiling anti-Obama posters at certain websites, banning certain anti-Obama posters for no cause or trumped up reasons, firing people from Obama's campaign whose political affiliations were deemed acceptable only to see those people suddenly thrown under the bus when the press showed them to be an embarrassment, to the candidate saying one thing and the campaign saying a different thing which underscores his lack of veracity (i.e. he was lying), who can believe what Obama's campaign or his supporters say?

Who can really believe what you'd offer as "proof?"

The campaign is as will to lie as to tell the truth. And on matters that are potentially incriminating to him the campaign is LIKELY to lie.

That's the price he must pay for his evasion and manipulation and stonewalling.

Lack of trust.

Except for those operating in a "bubble of self delusion."

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
"They are willing to support Obama despite all of the serious questions and murky areas that still exist about him."
The thing is that the worst imaginable answer for all those 'murky areas' is still better than what McCain and Palin flaunt and openly advertise about their own selves.

I'd rather have an Saudi covert agent in the presidency than a Young-Earth creationist. Any day of the week.

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DaveS
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quote:
Just who do you think you are talking to??
You. Pretend I'm an undecided voter. How would you help me? I'm giving you a chance to be constructive and win potential votes for your candidate.
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Aris Katsaris
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And I'm still amused at ruo talking about liberal self-delusion when he's supporting someone who believes in the literal truth of Fred Flintstone.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
... who can believe what Obama's campaign or his supporters say?
So, IOW, you have a bunch of allegations that are difficult, if not impossible, to answer.

And you won't believe any answers that are given!

Which shows that Obama can't be trusted, because he won't give answers! [Roll Eyes]

You don't even realize how illogical you are in a single post. [LOL]

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DaveS
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My mistake, I can't remember where I got that number from. The number was about 1170 pages, but they only covered his medical records since 2000. In 1999 he let people see his earlier records in a similar brief supervised session. I think they comprised about 1500 pages, but were redacted and partially withheld. No one knows the full extent of his records.

About 1/3 of WWII soldiers had symptoms correlated with PTSD 40 years after serving. In the past few years McCain has admitted to some lingering psychological effects, but won't discuss any of that and won't grant access to those records.

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Haggis
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I think this thread could be used as a test for insanity.

Doing the same thing the same way over and over again and expecting a different result.

Have fun trip-trapping over the bridge.

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
And who can doubt that a good deal of bloodshed could have been avoided had Clinton blown up OBL and some foreigners, civilians and some children when the CIA had missiles trained on them in an Afghan Taliban training camp?
The beauty of hindsight is that, once you've added up all the civilian deaths, you can say things like "If only we'd firebombed Berlin before the war...."
"If only we'd firebombed Berlin before the war...."

Who is saying that silly thing here, TomDavidson?

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Nothing has happened in Iraq.
And it only costs two hundred billion dollars a year! A steal, really, for nothing.
Perfect example of a Liberal bubble of self-delusion.

Self-delusionary bubble #1.

You don't remember what a swamp the Middle East was with Saddam in place and what the future prospects were for a Middle East with Saddam remaining in power.

Self-delusionary bubble #2.

You don't recall the almost unanimous Democratic clamor there was to take action against Saddam during the 1990's and leading up to and after the invasion.

Self-delusionary bubble #3.

You don't recognize the importance of Saddam's role as a neutralizing force against Iranian expansion of their Islamic (extremist) Revolution throughout the region.

Self-delusionary bubble #4.

You don't (publicly) recognize the virulence of Iran's ideology or their cancerously aggressive intent.

Self-delusionary bubble #5.

You don't recognize the beauty of freedom and liberty and Liberal Democracy and tolerance.

Self-delusionary bubble #6.

You don't recognize the importance of America's tradition of spending blood and treasure in the noblest effort: to free enslaved peoples around the world. And that we are the only country rich enough and strong enough to do it. And in the last 8 years or so our armed forces have freed more than 50 million Muslims around the world.

Self-delusionary bubble #7.

You don't recognize the consequences of what might have been had we left prematurely. We would have had to have gone BACK to do what we should have done the first time (and are doing now).

Self-delusionary bubble #8.

You don't recognize that free people will fight to keep their freedom and by planting 50,000,000 seeds of freedom around the world we have helped them, but we have also helped ourselves because we may not have to do all the fighting the next time a problem arises in the Middle East. And, the idea is that there may not BE a next time if our efforts pay off.

Self-delusionary bubble #9.

You don't recognize the Messaniac orientation of the Iranian leadership which might need only a WMD and access to some launch space in northwest Iraq close enough to Israel so they can cause the chaos needed to summon the Mahdi back from 'occultation.'

Self-delusionary bubble #10.

You don't recognize the possibility of Iran causing an end of the world nuclear Holy War scenario that would spoil your way of life if they are allowed to gain control of Iraq.

All of these issues I've mentioned and their arguments, pro & con, are available online to see.

But because many people live in their bubbles of self-delusion they not only resisted picking up this information along the way and they will, no doubt, try to defend their ignorance should they be presented with these facts today.

I trust you will open your eyes and your mind to entertaining what I have said here and will investigate each and every point before you object to anything I've said.

Unless you want to demonstrate how someone reacts when they are arguing from a bubble of self-delusion.

[ October 13, 2008, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: ruo ]

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
And I'm still amused at ruo talking about liberal self-delusion when he's supporting someone who believes in the literal truth of Fred Flintstone.

Who DOESN'T believe in Fred & Wilma, Barney & Betty, Pebbles & Bam Bam?

[Confused]

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DaveS
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quote:
Doing the same thing the same way over and over again and expecting a different result.
The way to open a walnut is to keep trying different spots on the seam until you get lucky. Or you smash it with a hammer. I'm still looking, but getting frustrated. I understand walnuts are a favorite food of trolls. Maybe I should ask one.
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TommySama
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Ruo, niggra folk in America sometimes get allowed into colleges because of their race. Law schools don't care much about grades, if you can lawyer well. One of my professors got got rejected because of his 2.0, but accepted later after he wrote a convincing letter to the schools admissions.

Not as purdy as obama getting funded by Saudi princes... But certainly more likely when you consider Obama's famous writing skills

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Ruo, you speak a lot about liberals living a fantasy, but it's usually not liberals who believe that the Flintstones is an accurate representation of prehistorical times.

It's usually not liberals who tend to believe things like "All death and evil came into the world when Eve ate a piece of fruit".

It wasn't a liberal president that looked deeply into Putin's eyes and saw a good soul.

And it wasn't liberals who pushed the fantasy of WMDs in Iraq.

It wasn't a liberal governor that had blessings done on her to protect her from witchcraft -- that was Sarah Palin. It wasn't a liberal governor that claims to have participated in an exorcism that cured a woman from cancer -- that was Bobby Jindal.

And compared to all of the above you contrast what? That liberals *disagree* with you on what the best course of action is regarding to Iraq?

Congrats, that is so much on the same level as the next face of the Republican Party, Bobby "I will perform an exorcism to cure you of cancer" Jindal.

Honestly, I've never seen a more delusional folk than American conservatives. Conservatives in other countries are actually halfway-sane even when one disagrees with them, but American conservatives have allied themselves with the religious nutjobs and the arrogant imperialists to drive themselves completely cuckoo.

I believe these are, largely, cynical arguments.

Isolate those you REALLY believe and I will answer them.

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cherrypoptart
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If Obama has already quit smoking, frankly, I'd be very impressed with him. If he hasn't, but he's made a firm commitment to quit, I'd be equally impressed, and if he made his effort and means public and used it as a motivator for others to take up the challenge of quitting smoking, that would be great too. If he hasn't quit, I'd say he should give some serious consideration to doing so sometime in the very near future.

The answer I might like to see on cocaine is that while he did it and got away with it, he has personally experienced how dangerous the drug can be and so doesn't think it would be safe for society to have people using it willy nilly. It still makes him a hypocrite in my book, but I think I've mentioned before I don't really have that big of a problem with hypocrisy, as long as something constructive is coming out of it. If there is a judge somewhere who is a drunk driver, or a wife beater, or a child molestor, I don't want him being lenient on those types of criminals just because he is one and is getting or has gotten away with it. I don't want Obama letting others get away with it, but frankly, I think it disqualifies him for this race, and it should have disqualified Bush as well, if it was true. If McCain has used illegal drugs, that should disqualify him. Maybe not in any legal sense, but the voters should be more discerning. The reason for this is that such usage shows that they had a complete disregard for the law and for our system of government that put that law in place. That is not someone who should be the chief executive responsible for enforcing the laws of the land, regardless of how they came about. It's not in his job description to choose which laws to enforce, or to obey. That's beyond his paygrade.

I'd like to see Obama make a firm commitment to defending democracy amongst our allies abroad, including most emphatically Taiwan. He should also publicly shame China regarding what they are doing in Tibet. If China doesn't like it, tough. It's the truth.

As for the military, he could respond, if it's truthful, that he will not be cutting it like Clinton and Carter did, but will be making our military more powerful, more effective, and more of a deterrent to tyrannical countries who try to impose their oppressive rules on others.

-------------------------------------

By the way, I understand Sarah Palin used illegal drugs too. I'm very disappointed, but what can you do? I'm not saying that people shouldn't vote for Obama now because of that if his political philosophy is in line with yours, just that it's a sad commentary on who we put into office that these are the best we can come up with. But if we used my criterion of no illegal drug use, nobody would qualify... Mitt Romney anyone?

[ October 13, 2008, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: cherrypoptart ]

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
Ruo, niggra folk in America sometimes get allowed into colleges because of their race. Law schools don't care much about grades, if you can lawyer well. One of my professors got got rejected because of his 2.0, but accepted later after he wrote a convincing letter to the schools admissions.

Not as purdy as obama getting funded by Saudi princes... But certainly more likely when you consider Obama's famous writing skills

Until someone persuaded the NYC councilman Percy Sutton (IIRC) to retract his statement that he'd been asked by an advisor to the Saudi prince to write a letter on behalf of Obama to get into Harvard Law, his account was accepted as a fact. And it remained so for months and months. But now that the "blogger press" has heated up on the matter Sutton suddenly retracts his statement and is too old and feeble to comment further.

[Roll Eyes]

Just who in the hell believes that except those in a bubble of self delusion or who are dishonest would put forth this charade?

TommySama, why should we settle for more likely or less likely in this matter when we can have statements of facts?

I want Obama to come forth and tell us exactly what the situation was so we needn't guess in his favor or guess that he is guilty.

And it looks an awful lot like he is guilty when he won't come clean.

And there is a thread where Obama's authorship of his first book is challenged on a number of counts.

Gee, it is hard to know exactly what is true and what isn't true when you have a candidate and a campaign which will lie about anything and everything for personal ambition.

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hobsen
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At the moment poor old McCain is being urged to do almost everything imaginable. But I have not yet heard anyone suggest that he and Sarah Palin dress up as Fred and Wilma Flintstone at their next campaign appearance. Perhaps that would make them more lovable, and it would certainly call attention to his seniority.

Meanwhile Obama is very sensibly relying on an army of paid and volunteer workers larger than that of the Republicans, plus running three times as many TV ads in closely divided states. And I suppose preparing for the next debate, in which he can remain polite and smile whatever McCain attempts. Since a good many absentee votes have been mailed by now, it is making less and less difference what the candidates do.

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KnightEnder
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Do we have a "Least Effective Poster" award? I can't be sure but I think Ruo could drive a conservative to vote for Obama.

KE

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Wayward Son
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Let's hope so...

^ ^
[Big Grin]

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
But I see you are one who goes for the cheap, obvious, jokingly/serious, pedantic put-down.
One of the least of my many faults. [Smile]

quote:
The truth should not be sacrificed to a clever turn of phrase, no matter how pleasant.
Except that, to my eyes, I haven't seen you put forth any "truth" in the Questions You Want Answers To. Allegations, innuendo, and such, but no "truth." And much bemoaning the fact that you haven't heard the answers that you want to hear, along with further innuendo that there must be some nefarious reason why you haven't heard them.

With so much lack of substance, what else is there to do with it than use it as fodder for a good turn-of-phrase? It's not really good for anything else. [Razz]

It IS gratifying, however, to know that so many Americans are so easily influenced by charisma and satisfied by superficial answers.

Thank God for that quality! Where would the used car salesmen of this nation be without it?

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ruo
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
Do we have a "Least Effective Poster" award? I can't be sure but I think Ruo could drive a conservative to vote for Obama.

KE

What you are saying is that you believe that Conservatives are allergic to the truth and to traditional American values.

We know that most liberals are. And I suspect you are merely demonstrating the principle of "psychological projection."

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TomDavidson
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quote:

I trust you will open your eyes and your mind to entertaining what I have said here and will investigate each and every point before you object to anything I've said.

Unless you want to demonstrate how someone reacts when they are arguing from a bubble of self-delusion.

#1: The Middle East has been a "swamp" as long as I've been alive. It continues to be a swamp. The removal of Saddam has changed the names, but I see no evidence that it has dried out the ground.

#2: I do remember this. This is one of the many things that disappoints me about the Democratic Party, but at least makes me proud of my current Senator.

#3: I'm not sure how you can, with #1, argue that the removal of Saddam has made the Middle East less of a swamp and then, two points later, say that I don't realize how important a "neutralizing force" Saddam was against Iran.

#4: I don't think Iran's ideology is particularly virulent. It's certainly not cancerous. It's hostile, but it's not catching. It is, in fact, largely self-defeating within two generations.

#5: Oh, you must be right. I look around for freedom and liberty and tolerance here in America, and now and then completely fail to recognize it. I'm pretty sure they're beautiful, though, and I'll know them when I see them.

#6: America has many traditions. Spending blood and treasure to free enslaved people is not, however, something I would consider an American tradition.

#7: I will freely concede that I disagree with you about the hypothetical results of a variety of hypothetical actions that we might hypothetically have hypothesized about. [Smile]

#8: I actually believe quite strongly that people, once they are given a taste of self-determination, will continue to choose self-determination. I do not believe that it always remains possible for people to successfully remain free once given a "taste" of freedom, however. Neither do I believe that we are, with our current efforts, handing out samples of particularly succulent or flavorful freedom.

#9: I'm pretty familiar with Iran, actually, and I can guarantee you that the current leadership of Iran is not particularly interested in bringing about the apocalypse. They would like to wipe Israel off the map, though, so the body of your point -- that Iran poses a pressing threat to Israel -- is certainly valid.

#10: There are many things which might spoil my way of life. Massive financial collapse caused by endless, dissolute wars ranks highly; the odds of a Christian fundamentalist government comes in a pretty close second. Unafforable healthcare and the loss of Social Security following the disintegration of my private investments is more likely, but also more survivable. The odds that anything Iran does is going to end the world in nuclear war, though, is way down near the bottom. I'm considerably less scared of Iran than I am of China, and I'm considerably less scared of China than I am of the Bible Belt.

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RickyB
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quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #1.

You don't remember what a swamp the Middle East was with Saddam in place and what the future prospects were for a Middle East with Saddam remaining in power.

Wrong. There isn't a single, solitary country in the Middle East whose security condition has improved since 2003 - except Iran.

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #2.

You don't recall the almost unanimous Democratic clamor there was to take action against Saddam during the 1990's and leading up to and after the invasion.

Not quite Unanimous. We remember though, with disgust. It's a large part of why it ain't Hillary running.

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #3.

You don't recognize the importance of Saddam's role as a neutralizing force against Iranian expansion of their Islamic (extremist) Revolution throughout the region.

Um, that's our line. Your boy didn't recognize that when he invaded. Now we have an Iraqi "PM" who is allied with Iran.

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #4.

You don't (publicly) recognize the virulence of Iran's ideology or their cancerously aggressive intent.

Sure we do. But as someone who managed to miss reports on the Ayers thing by what are probably the four largest broadsheets in America, perhaps you missed this as well. Also, we're not in a chest beating contest with y'all. Screaming all day about how horrible someone else is, leaves scant time for self reflection.

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #5.

You don't recognize the beauty of freedom and liberty and Liberal Democracy and tolerance.

<sigh>

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #6.

You don't recognize the importance of America's tradition of spending blood and treasure in the noblest effort: to free enslaved peoples around the world. And that we are the only country rich enough and strong enough to do it. And in the last 8 years or so our armed forces have freed more than 50 million Muslims around the world.

Bosnia, Somalia (failed effort, same principle though) <SIGH>

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #7.

You don't recognize the consequences of what might have been had we left prematurely. We would have had to have gone BACK to do what we should have done the first time and are doing now.

That'll probably happen anyway, whenever we leave. You're sitting on a pressure cooker. Sure, your ass makes a nice lid, but it kinda hampers mobility.

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #8.

You don't recognize that free people will fight to keep their freedom and by planting 50,000,000 seeds of freedom around the world we have helped them, but we have also helped ourselves because we may not have to do all the fighting the next time a problem arises in the Middle East. And, the idea is that there may not BE a next time if our efforts pay off.

<sigh.> Yeah, cause we were greeted as liberators

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #9.

You don't recognize the Messaniac orientation of the Iranian leadership which might need only a WMD and access to some launch space in northwest Iraq close enough to Israel so they can cause the chaos needed to summon the Mahdi back from 'occultation.'

Interesting but wrong. Iran's leadership are sly foxes clothed in the guise of religious nuts. Oh, they believe, but in a cool, methodical way they don't share with the deliberately-crazed puppets.

quote:
Self-delusionary bubble #10.

You don't recognize the possibility of Iran causing an end of the world nuclear Holy War scenario that would spoil your way of life if they are allowed to gain control of Iraq.

No, we do, though your scenario is simplistic. Which is why we want to be in a position to do something effective about it.
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kenmeer livermaile
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RickyB, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you LIVED in the Middle East for many years?

In one of them mobile delusionary bubble homes called Married w/ Kids?

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Do we have a "Least Effective Poster" award? I can't be sure but I think Ruo could drive a conservative to vote for Obama."

Oh, that's giving too much negative credit, I think. ruo's something, but no Sarah Palin.

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Ben
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Question for Obama:

Given that there exists Islamic tradition saying children of a Muslim are considered to be Muslim, and that the prescribed Koranic penalty for leaving Islam is death, regardless of the religion, how do you as a Christian address this scenario personally, and how will you handle this as president, when dealing with countries that enshrine sharia and Islam into their laws? No gotcha question intended here, as my assumption is that Obama is Christian, just how does he deal with that scenario?

Just wanted to post something less political, but still relevant, here. Others seem to be covering the hot-button issues to some degree, and I may add to that myself later. Where's the questions for McCain thread?

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Originally posted by ruo:
quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Ruo, you speak a lot about liberals living a fantasy, but it's usually not liberals who believe that the Flintstones is an accurate representation of prehistorical times.

It's usually not liberals who tend to believe things like "All death and evil came into the world when Eve ate a piece of fruit".

It wasn't a liberal president that looked deeply into Putin's eyes and saw a good soul.

And it wasn't liberals who pushed the fantasy of WMDs in Iraq.

It wasn't a liberal governor that had blessings done on her to protect her from witchcraft -- that was Sarah Palin. It wasn't a liberal governor that claims to have participated in an exorcism that cured a woman from cancer -- that was Bobby Jindal.

And compared to all of the above you contrast what? That liberals *disagree* with you on what the best course of action is regarding to Iraq?

Congrats, that is so much on the same level as the next face of the Republican Party, Bobby "I will perform an exorcism to cure you of cancer" Jindal.

Honestly, I've never seen a more delusional folk than American conservatives. Conservatives in other countries are actually halfway-sane even when one disagrees with them, but American conservatives have allied themselves with the religious nutjobs and the arrogant imperialists to drive themselves completely cuckoo.

I believe these are, largely, cynical arguments.

Isolate those you REALLY believe and I will answer them.

I believe in all of the statement in my above post. I believe American conservatives tend to have a much higher delusional percentage than liberals do for exactly all the reasons I highlighted above. Their acceptance of religious mythology as literal truth, their belief in being the actual instruments of God (either in righteous war or in exorcisms, it's fundamentally the same), their reduction of political power into interpersonal relationships and their usage of sheer instinct (do I like this fella, or don't I like him) to replace intellect when evaluating a person's worth.

My examples were quite specific and quite earnest. You refused to answer *any* of them.

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