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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Miscellaneous Chat - Part 2 (Page 33)

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Author Topic: Miscellaneous Chat - Part 2
kenmeer livermaile
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If death don;t stick it isn;t death. BTW, before modern medical techniques, people were often prematurely buried. They used to bury people with strings attached to bells and have a graveyard watchman who, among other things, listened for ringing bells when people presumed dead had been buried alive and woke up.

Dead means DEAD. Don't come back. Stay gone.

One can say that Jesus changed the definition of death for those engaged with His myth.

But the dude didn't die. Dead people don;t wake up and walk.

It's a semantic quibble, is all. But it bugs me when the god-as-man who allegedly conquered death is said to have died for us.

Just really bad rhetoric in my mind. I would say that Jesus experienced perhaps the most powerful and defining NDE of all.

[ April 12, 2009, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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KnightEnder
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I'm watching last weeks episode of "Lie to Me", and they just busted a guy for being addicted to opiates (pain pills) by showing him a bunch of pictures of people making exaggerated faces showing surprise, happiness, disgust. And the only one he got right was "disgust" because he had seen it so often on the faces of his friends and family. What a bunch of ****. When you're addicted to opiates you never see anybody that is surprised ever again? You forget what surprised people look like? Wide eyes and round mouth going OH! doesn't register anymore? Get the **** out. Which makes me doubt most of the other crap they are saying. I mean I knew that everything they do is highly exaggerated but this is the first time I've heard them say anything that is flat out BS. [Frown] Too bad, I liked this show.

KE

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Kuato
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KL-

Maybe death doesn't actually exist.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Maybe I'm Matthew McConaghey

According to Jesus, it no longer does, anyway. But at the time, it did. jESUS, ACCORDING TO bIBLICAL LEGEND, WAS THE FIRST HUMAN BEING not TO DIE.(oops)

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scifibum
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KL, you're absolutely right, you know. Now I'm never going to be able to hear "Jesus died for us" again without mentally going "yeah, but he's not dead, is he?" Thanks.

Of course, total annihilation for our sins wouldn't have worked, would it? What's the value in that?

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kenmeer livermaile
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I'm sure that Jesus, being wise as gods must be, would've done it some other way if possible and would've preferred it be 'Jesus boinked Mary Magdalene for our sins'.

But a god's gotta do what a god's gotta do.

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KnightEnder
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I was listening to Talk Radio this morning and besides the DJ's calling Obama a dog, some caller called in and suggested that the reason the Obama's named their dog Bo was because of Obama's massive ego and that BO stands for Barak Obama. They loved that. ****ing talk radio conservatives, callers and pundits, are whackjobs.

In other news "The Unit" was awesome last night, as usual.

KE

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scifibum
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My initials are KAH. I wouldn't name a dog that because I don't want to sound like a crow. But if my initials made a name, and I assigned that coincidental name to a pet, I still don't see how that would demonstrate anything wrong with me. Maybe if I also:

- Dressed the dog in natty suits
- Held "press conferences" for the dog
- Told the dog what an inspired leader it was

...etc...

What effective way is there to intrude on the fantasies that people construct about what's wrong with someone, just because they represent an opposing faction? Happens in religion too. Didja hear about the Vatican's order of assassin monks?

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KnightEnder
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[LOL]

I think Kah sounds like a pretty good nickname. Sounds like a a cowboy name. Something a Louis L'amour character would be called. "Kah Jackson". [Smile]

Oh, I forgot on the name thread I had another nickname when I was a teenager. The brothers used to call me Ski. Started out as John, then Johnski, then just Ski. Weird how nicknames come about.

I had a buddy that looked just like a catfish, I called him that one time and he's been Catfish for the rest of his life. I'm glad he likes it. I'd hate for him to go through life hating me for hanging a nickname on him. [Smile]

KE

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Clark
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"If death don't stick it isn't death"

That seems a funny way to define death. How would you describe Jesus' state between the his "death" and the resurrection? He would have to have been considered dead, as at that point, we wouldn't have known that it wasn't going to stick. So, after the resurrection we would have had to change our description of what his state had been on Saturday.

This would also apply to folks such as Lazarus and others "raised from the dead" in the Bible. Lazarus' first death didn't stick, so he never really had been dead. He was apparently raised from "not dead" which doesn't really sound miraculous at all.

Furthermore, the Bible indicates that when Jesus was resurrected, "many bodies of the Saints which slept arose". (Matt 27:52) Their 'death' didn't stick either, so they must not have been dead that whole time. (If they weren't dead, had they been buried alive?)

Finally, if someone believes in a future resurrection, then no one who is currently 'dead' should really be considered dead, because they may be resurrected at some point in the future, at which time it will be clear that they were never dead to begin with.

In the end, I think it is easier to stick with the usage that Jesus did indeed die, and then returned to a not dead state. Perhaps it is best to say that with the resurrection, Jesus redefined death to mean a state which may not be permanent.

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Lina Inverse
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I think you're missing the point, kl...
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scifibum
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I don't think KL misses the point, but perhaps he's crossing contexts. (Unintentionally? Dunno.)

One perspective could say death means not to live any more. From this perspective, Jesus didn't die.

But you can adopt a definition of death such as zero brain activity, no respiration...no known causal mechanism could restore recognizable life...under which Jesus could have been "dead" and yet risen later.

I think KL adopts the first point of view, but also seems to (for rhetorical purposes, still) grant that Jesus at one point matched the second.

From the contemporary perspective, death probably meant "isn't moving, isn't breathing as far as we can tell" and depending on the weather might have something to do with skin temperature. Might have something to do with corporeal integrity (and Jesus still had most of it, from what I understand). We have better instruments now, and one wonders whether Jesus would have been pronounced dead by Dr. Doug Ross or if he'd have busted out the defib and adrenaline.

Anyway I think the point that KL is making is that Jesus didn't sacrifice ongoing life.

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KnightEnder
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quote:
"many bodies of the Saints which slept arose". (Matt 27:52) Their 'death' didn't stick either, so they must not have been dead that whole time. (If they weren't dead, had they been buried alive?)
Buried "asleep" according to Matthew according to you. [Smile] Did they not know the difference between asleep and dead back then? Lazarus arose from sleep! You're right; doesn't sound near as miraculous. [Smile]

quote:
Perhaps it is best to say that with the resurrection, Jesus redefined death to mean a state which may not be permanent.
Death not permanent? Well, no reason to lie about that. No way that could give you power and leverage over anybody that believed you had the way to access this "not dead" state. [Roll Eyes]

Yeah, it would be great, but how can anyone "believe" that? Want to believe? Sure. Believe???

KE

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Kuato
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na, KE, the bodies were dead, that's all.
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KnightEnder
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Matthew says asleep?

But you aren't telling me there is some kind of difference between a person and his body, are you? The way I understand it your brain is part of your body so if your body is dead your brain is dead and that means 'you' are dead?

KE

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KnightEnder
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But hey, I'm talking to a Martian outgrowth tumor of some kind so what the hell do I know? [Smile]

KE

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Kuato
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bezactly!
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kenmeer livermaile
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scifibum gets it: he distinguishes NDEs from DEATH.

Lord, some of you people confuse splitting hairs and choking on them.

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NobleHunter
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I prefer: Death is a metaphysical event that varies greatly according to the nature of the individual experiencing it.

Or perhaps they are just differently alive (swiped from Tanya Huff)

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Lina Inverse
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I think you're still missing the point, kl. In Christian theology, Jesus defeated death and gained victory over it. Death used to be forever, but it isn't anymore because God performed a miracle. Even if you don't want to call it death, calling it a NDE is even more inaccurate, IMHO; there wasn't anything "near" about it.

[ April 14, 2009, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Lina Inverse ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"I think you're still missing the point, kl. In Christian theology, Jesus defeated death and gained victory over it. Death used to be forever, but it isn't anymore because God performed a miracle."

Jesus managed to *defeat* death, it is claimed, but even He didn't dare attempt a universal miracle to defeat human cognitive complacency.

Many Xtians speak of how Jesus 'defeated death'. I got no semantic problem with that.

But other Xtians say He died when He obviously didn't, according to their own record.

Do please consider the difference between dying and defeating death.

One thing I hate about discussing deep religious concepts with the vast majority of religious persons is that they don't/won't go deep enough to satisfy even a freshman high school debate squad. They don't even examine beyond the surface these extraordinarily deep concepts that religion addresses.

This is why intellectuals since the Enlightenment have viewed with scorn theology, and why Scholasticism is considered an insular and incestuous paper chase.

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
scifibum gets it: he distinguishes NDEs from DEATH.

Lord, some of you people confuse splitting hairs and choking on them.

Don't know why but that reminded me of the old intermediate school joke; Why are pubic hairs curly? So they don't poke your eyes out. [Smile]

That joke is dedicated to the, as of today, late GREAT Marylin Chambers. She and I had some beautiful nights together. [Smile]

KE

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Lina Inverse
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"I think you're still missing the point, kl. In Christian theology, Jesus defeated death and gained victory over it. Death used to be forever, but it isn't anymore because God performed a miracle."

Jesus managed to *defeat* death, it is claimed, but even He didn't dare attempt a universal miracle to defeat human cognitive complacency.

Many Xtians speak of how Jesus 'defeated death'. I got no semantic problem with that.

But other Xtians say He died when He obviously didn't, according to their own record.

Do please consider the difference between dying and defeating death.

One thing I hate about discussing deep religious concepts with the vast majority of religious persons is that they don't/won't go deep enough to satisfy even a freshman high school debate squad. They don't even examine beyond the surface these extraordinarily deep concepts that religion addresses.

This is why intellectuals since the Enlightenment have viewed with scorn theology, and why Scholasticism is considered an insular and incestuous paper chase.

I think your definition of death is faulty, so I suppose that's where it'll have to lie.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Hohohohoho... and what do you want for Xmas little boy???

(whisper)

You'll poke your eye out!

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kenmeer livermaile
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I'd say so, Lisa, but if my def's faulty,m then your theology falls apart. My def of death is dead dead dead. If that definition doesn't work for you, then what in hell did Jeebus conquer? Sleeping pills?
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TommySama
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Today is my birthday. 21st birthday.

It's been nce knowing you all ;-)

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Lina Inverse
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
I'd say so, Lisa, but if my def's faulty,m then your theology falls apart. My def of death is dead dead dead. If that definition doesn't work for you, then what in hell did Jeebus conquer? Sleeping pills?

Jesus defeated the eternal-ness of physical death. What He went into was eternal death; what He came out of wasn't. That's why I say that it comes down to definition: I'd say that Jesus changed the rules. You'd say that He didn't. And... there we are.
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RickyB
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"I'd say that Jesus changed the rules. "

But not for anyone but him, right? So what's the point?

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Jesus defeated the eternal-ness of physical death. What He went into was eternal death; what He came out of wasn't. That's why I say that it comes down to definition: I'd say that Jesus changed the rules. You'd say that He didn't. And... there we are."

I say He did, your silliness. I only said that Jesus died for your sins is a non sequitur. Pay attention, please, there are grown adults here discussing things and they get to acting out easily if you don't pay attention to what you're actually addressing rather than whatever point you wish to make.

They are not synonymous nor identical.

But keep trying.

[ April 14, 2009, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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Clark
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I'm not sure what other Christians think about this, but I can speak for the LDS who believe that everyone will be resurrected to an immortal state with a perfect body, free from sickness and injury. Jesus changed the rules for everybody.
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elk
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happy birthday
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kenmeer livermaile
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You'll live, Tommy, but you'll wake up a Pentecostal.

It happens.

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Lina Inverse
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"I'd say that Jesus changed the rules. "

But not for anyone but him, right? So what's the point?

He changed them for all who believe in Him, as well, ergo the whole "eternal life" thing.

quote:
I say He did, your silliness. I only said that Jesus died for your sins is a non sequitur. Pay attention, please, there are grown adults here discussing things and they get to acting out easily if you don't pay attention to what you're actually addressing rather than whatever point you wish to make.
Ad hominem, nice.

Anyway, coming at it from another angle, God can perform miracles, yes? Christians (generally) believe that He performed a miracle that permanently altered the nature of death. (At which point you/someone might say "No, He didn't" and I would say "Yes, He did", and... again, there we are.) I mean, He's God. He can do that.

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IrishTD
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Just remember to fall asleep this way Tommy.

Oh, and we will want stories. [Big Grin]

And happy birthday too.

[ April 14, 2009, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: IrishTD ]

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Lina Inverse
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And on a completely different note: Surgeons find fir tree growing inside patient's lung. As if I didn't enough irrational fears already D: D: D: D:
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scifibum
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What's the fun in turning 21 when you've spent the last 2 or three years boozing anyhow?

Getting to pick out your own flavor of schnapps?

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Anyway, coming at it from another angle,
Ahhh, she's using logic on you Ken. [Smile]

But seriously; I think Lina's explanation is dead-on (I know, I'm sorry) and very well stated. I think that should clear it up.

quote:
the LDS who believe that everyone will be resurrected to an immortal state with a perfect body
So I'll just wake up in my twenty-seven year old body? Cool. [Cool]

KE

[ April 14, 2009, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Hohohohoho... and what do you want for Xmas little boy???

(whisper)

You'll poke your eye out!

[LOL] A Christmas Story with a twist, or two. [Smile]

KE

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KnightEnder
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Happy Birthday Tommy!!!

I hope you are [Smile] and that during your celebration there will be a lot of [LOL] some [Razz] no [FootInMouth] or [Exploding] and that you'll wake up [Smile] !

[Wink]
KE

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Kuato
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Happy Birthday, Tommysama.
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