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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Miscellaneous Chat - Part 2 (Page 34)

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Author Topic: Miscellaneous Chat - Part 2
kenmeer livermaile
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"Ad hominem, nice."

And fully sincere.

I could have said, 'I think that's incredibly silly' and been kosher by Ornery rules, but it would have been SO insincere.

I so very much call 'em as I see 'em anymore. Like so:

"Anyway, coming at it from another angle, God can perform miracles, yes? Christians (generally) believe that He performed a miracle that permanently altered the nature of death. (At which point you/someone might say "No, He didn't" and I would say "Yes, He did", and... again, there we are.) I mean, He's God. He can do that. "

Borrowing one of Red's fave lines: Are you being *deliberately* obtuse? No one's argiong miracles. I have no opinion -- zip --on that. I agree with:

'Christians (generally) believe that He performed a miracle that permanently altered the nature of death.'

I can even agree with: 'What I *mean*, KL, is that jesus really *was* dead but, because He's a God, therefore xyz: a miracle occurs thatnopt only defeats death but in so doing altered the semantic heritage of the word or, to put it another way, Jesus was the last person to die, having vanquished death.

I'm fine with that. My point was about the rhetorical consistency of Jeebus died for our sins.

If none of us KNOW what death because ( a) none of us have died yet, b) death has been absent for about 2k years courtesy Jesus), then the word 'death' means *only* what 'Jesus died for your sins' means and in this model we not only don't know what death is beyond knowing they don't come back in *this* life until maybe the Rapture but we also are told it means whatever Jesus experienced -- which we will never know thanks to Him.

That concept, however, is only *meaningfully* expressed in semantic terms by this Jesus motto: Jesus conquered death and it is no more. This version clearly implies that what we see as death when Mama dies is not what persons before the resurrection saw then Mama died (even if it looked identical to what we see and they didn't come back either).

'Jesus CONQUERED death' conveys this. 'Jesus died for your sins/that you might live forever' does not, for, as this bit of topical discourse shows, what Death is (or was) is a word that means something different to a believer than it does to a nonbeliever. What you mean by death as a believer is imply not the same thing meant by a non-believer, and this is not based on belief or lack thereof, but on a definition belief prescribes for a believer. A believer, per your model, literally means something different than a non-believer when he says, 'Death'.

When I, me, myself, the real, living and undeniable to myself by myself (I just can't escape the fact that I *is*) says death I mean dead dead dead because that's what, how shall I say this, the default perception of death is: dead. Capisch?

Every day people say, 'He's dead', and we know what they mean.

You, a believer (or so I assume) mean something else. What 'death' means to you is actually 'some kind of NDE that will cease upon the fulness of time or when you die, depending on which denomination you've chosen, and become what bwe call 'eternal life' -- whatever the hell THAT is.

Thus: to say Jesus died for your sins is a non sequitur to a non-believer, but to say that Jesus conquered death isn't.

I only get truly nasty, Lisa, when people make me do ALL there work for them, as you have.

I feel manipulated. Used. Cheap. (sobs) You never *really* loved me! You were just *using* me!

Now I'm gonna go stroke my lead-coated Maltese Falcon, the stuff that (Bogey wince) dreams are made of.

"But seriously; I think Lina's explanation is dead-on (I know, I'm sorry) and very well stated. I think that should clear it up."

You lose partner. Fold 'em.

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scifibum
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Now, KL, you also get nasty when you think you're doing someone a favor by doing so.

It gets a bit difficult to engage the terminology of religion from an agnostic context. I'm not even sure what "Jesus defeated death" is supposed to mean. Was it a contest? Was it hard? Did death fight back?

We could say that Jesus demonstrated his awesomeness by having a three day NDE, which was totally unprecedented. You could say that this unlocked the potential for similar miraculous revivals for others. The meaning of this is pretty clear.*

But conquering death? For the giver of life, not that significant, really. Just part of the C.V., you might say.

*On the surface, I mean. Not why any of it is happening.

[ April 14, 2009, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: scifibum ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Now, KL, you also get nasty when you think you're doing someone a favor by doing so. "

That's my inner god nature. Like OT Yahweh.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Now, KL, you also get nasty when you think you're doing someone a favor by doing so. "

That's my inner god nature. Like OT Yahweh.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Now, KL, you also get nasty when you think you're doing someone a favor by doing so. "

That's my inner god nature. Like OT Yahweh.

"It gets a bit difficult to engage the terminology of religion from an agnostic context."

Well, since when was 'death' a terminology of religion? death is this thing that happens, period. I ain't met no resurrectees but have known several NDE survivors. seems ludicrous to me call death, in mixed company, anything but dead dead. Jeebus ain't dead. I thought that was the point. Dying means gone/bye-bye/no come back. *Conquered* death means something else, sure, but death in everyday use means gone. Everyone understands that. The point of Jesus' miracle is to conquer/transcend death. I'm happy to think that jesus revoked death upon his physical cessation. Cool. But he didn;t die, as folks knew the term then and plenty folks know it now, precisely because he didn't *stay* dead. Miracle? Fine. Groovy. Died? No. He did *something else*.

Pre-resurrection, people died dead dead. After Resurrection, a miracle made 'death' no longer dead dead. I get that. Easy peezy.

But enough. I weary. I get that per Xtian salvation, dead is no longer dead-dead. But jesus ain't dead-dead, so whatever miracle he did, he didn't die because he ain't dead-dead. Him be immortal and ****.

I adore mystical wonder and religious concepts but find 99.9% of religious persons unable to think comprehensively and heaven forbid, objectively) about their favorite subject.

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scifibum
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I got my new treadmill on Saturday night, and quit drinking four days ago.

I've been drinking more than I should, by almost any standard. I was able to stop (so far) without checking into a clinic or being locked up, but my body had gotten very, very used to having a few drinks every day. It's uncomfortable not to drink. But using the treadmill seems to help. Getting tired seems to knock the edge off the cravings.

I'm hoping to quit feeling so dull all the time. Also to remove myself from cirrhosis candidate pool.

I don't exactly want to be a teetotaler but I think I'm gonna have to imitate one for a while. I think I might have to approach moderation from the downhill side. (As it stands, "one or two" never sticks, since my body wants five or six and my head rolls over after the first.)

Meanwhile I might lose a few pounds. I'm pretty sure I was getting about a third of my calories from beer.

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Clark
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KL: Do you have an adjective in mind for the Christians to use for people who are not currently living, but who they do not believe will remain not-living indefinitely?
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kenmeer livermaile
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The Bored?
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kenmeer livermaile
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As an ancient boozehound, my thinking is the only time fellas like us can drink is when we're away from our normal circumstances (camping, for example) and we dive in whole hog.

Your biology doesn't want a glass of wine with dinner. It wants a bottle, with or without dinner.

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elk
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:

Pre-resurrection, people died dead dead. After Resurrection, a miracle made 'death' no longer dead dead. I get that. Easy peezy.

My understanding of the belief is that the 'miracle' was retroactive.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
As an ancient boozehound, my thinking is the only time fellas like us can drink is when we're away from our normal circumstances (camping, for example) and we dive in whole hog.

Your biology doesn't want a glass of wine with dinner. It wants a bottle, with or without dinner.

MIght be true. I think i will abstain until I at least don't expect it viscerally, and experiment a little. I'd like to find out if I have the capacity for self control or not.
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TommySama
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I survived. Although, the period between 10:22 and 8:30 AM when I woke up is gone now, lost to history.

... Until I ask my friend's tomorrow

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TommySama
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My "friends" spent $80 giving me shot after shot. The night started with a round of goldenslager, and then some unholy compilation of alcohol which ended with me setting my head on the table, and picking it back up to see my girlfriends apartment this morning.

I wish I could turn 21 every day [Smile]

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scouser1
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Gettin blackouts cos ya so drunk are always the best [Big Grin] BINGE!!!
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Lobo
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I have never understood why not remembering 10 hours of the day/night is fun...

KL, can you teach my sundayschool class? I think I would learn more...

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Kuato
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
I survived. Although, the period between 10:22 and 8:30 AM when I woke up is gone now, lost to history.

... Until I ask my friend's tomorrow

...or someone slaps you with a paternity lawsuit.
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kenmeer livermaile
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I would be tarred and feathered within ten minutes of my 1st Sunday school lesson. My experience is that people enjoy the intellectual stimulation... until it threatens their faith, which intellectual stimulation tends to do for most people.

Problem with religion is people take it *seriously*. Christ didn't. He told the Jews '**** your Messiah prophecy and King ****. I'ma take it on the Cross.'

Raise your hands to the sky, say I love you God and hope you love me, be as nice as you reasonably can and then (true Holy Words): DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY.

Or sad if need be, but don't worry about it. Worry is fear and fear breeds bad things including violence.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Oh, one other thing, with a special nod toward Funean: for God's sake, don't try and be reasonable. You/we *aren't, period. The road to hell is paved with reasonability.
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Lina Inverse
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile: "Ad hominem, nice."

And fully sincere.

I could have said, 'I think that's incredibly silly' and been kosher by Ornery rules, but it would have been SO insincere.

But you do think my argument is silly, right? [LOL] What would be insincere about saying that?

quote:
'Jesus CONQUERED death' conveys this. 'Jesus died for your sins/that you might live forever' does not, for, as this bit of topical discourse shows, what Death is (or was) is a word that means something different to a believer than it does to a nonbeliever. What you mean by death as a believer is imply not the same thing meant by a non-believer, and this is not based on belief or lack thereof, but on a definition belief prescribes for a believer. A believer, per your model, literally means something different than a non-believer when he says, 'Death'.

When I, me, myself, the real, living and undeniable to myself by myself (I just can't escape the fact that I *is*) says death I mean dead dead dead because that's what, how shall I say this, the default perception of death is: dead. Capisch?

Every day people say, 'He's dead', and we know what they mean.

Okay, maybe this is the point on which we're really disagreeing. I'm not sure it's reasonable to say that the definition of death is that nailed-down. For example, there are plenty of people who consider a temporary condition (like a stopped heart, or cessation of certain brain waves) to be death, which conflicts with both our definitions. A person like that might say something like "I died on the operating table" and be perfectly correct--using their own definition of death, which is one of several generally-accepted ones. (And that's if we just look at physical death; if we open things up to mind/soul/spiritual death, there are another few trillion varying beliefs/definitions.)

There are plenty of people who don't see eternal-ness as a necessary quality of death. It seems like you're criticizing them for not using your definition, when I don't see any reason why they should be using your definition. Why do you get to decide the "correct" definition of death, and what makes your definition more correct than theirs?

quote:
I only get truly nasty, Lisa, when people make me do ALL there work for them, as you have.

I feel manipulated. Used. Cheap. (sobs) You never *really* loved me! You were just *using* me!

As my Latin teacher used to say, suffering builds character. It's for your own good, really [Wink] *cracks whip*
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KnightEnder
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Tommy, I'm sure you will be able to see what you missed on YouTube. [Smile]

But seriously I hate hate blacking out. Ambien made me blackout worse than anything, so of course I had to stop taking it. [Frown]

Scifi,

The weird thing is you will actually start to enjoy running in place after awhile. Run slow. Duration burns fat, not uphill sprints. And you really start burning fat after 15 minutes. Every minute after that is fat burning and that used to really motivate me.

And beer is the devil's brew. That is why all my friends have beer bellies and I don't. Whiskey's quicker and it doesn't put on the pounds. Beer is like drinking liquid bread that tastes like horse piss. At least they smell the same. I know, I know, it is an acquired taste. I'm sure that you can acquire a taste for horse piss if you drink it long enough. Scotch = cough medicine, Beer = horse piss. [Smile] Don't the Hindus drink cow urine? Or do they just bathe in it?

KE

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Kuato
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I'm a slime covered mutant but you grossed me out, KE.
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TommySama
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"But seriously I hate hate blacking out. Ambien made me blackout worse than anything, so of course I had to stop taking it. [Frown] "

I hate it too. But something about getting my friend's to buy me $80 of alcohol, and then continuing to drink it in front of them is great.
-1 Goldenslager
-2 double shots
-1 house shot
-2 beers
-3 rums
(Thats all I can remember drinking, but I know there was more)

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KnightEnder
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Welcome to adulthood. It sucks.

I'm glad you had fun Tommy. But you're a grownup now so no more of that for you. Sorry.

KE

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KnightEnder
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Has anyone tried the anti-hangover pills? If so, what are they called and how did it work? Thanks.

I wish they had pills that would let you drink and not get drunk like in the movies. I could down Crown while playing poker and act drunk. How stupid would that be? [Smile]

KE

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TommySama
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[Smile] . Talk to me when I get a job [Frown] . Until then I still get to be ridiculously immature. I will put up the two pictures of my glory in a bit!
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scifibum
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I wonder if you ever had any *good* beer, KE. But I'm all too acquainted with whiskey (and whisky, and vodka, and brandy and rum. Mostly bourbon, but I'd drink Scotch all the time if I was rich and wasn't trying to dry out a little).
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KnightEnder
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I can tell you for sure that I've never had any "good beer" Sci. But, no, I've probably never had what you would consider quality beer, either. I have had 'good scotch' but I still don't like it. I wish I did, but I don't. And it would be nice to like beer for the convenience factor, but then there is the gut issue.

When Stacy and I used to go out drinking at the local country honky-tonks it would look funny because Stacy would be drinking a long-neck and I'd be drinking my Crown. I tried not to hold my pinky out, though. [Smile]

Tommy, I'm looking forward to the pics. I will have to live vicariously through you now that I'm ancient. [Smile]

Last night I had AQ suited and I get my last $15,000 all-in against a guy that calls with Ace-8 off suit and he catches an 8 on the river! I got my money in with by far the best hand, (he had three cards in the whole deck that could save him) and that's really all you can do. [Frown]

KE

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kenmeer livermaile
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"But you do think my argument is silly, right? [LOL] What would be insincere about saying that?"

Because after several iterations of more or less the same silliness from one source, one tends to associate the message with the messenger. And when it's about something as simple as the empirical nature opf death as experienced and recorded by humanity for millennia: well, you get your kick me I'm stupid sticker from me.

Thing about ad hominem is to remember it's just some hominem's opnion about one aspect of whom you are. You could probably run ring-tosses around me in countless areas in which I'm one seriously silly goose.

"I'm not sure it's reasonable to say that the definition of death is that nailed-down. For example, there are plenty of people who consider a temporary condition (like a stopped heart, or cessation of certain brain waves) to be death, which conflicts with both our definitions."

See. You're still being silly on this. My guess this is ego-driven. When the ego drives, silly holds the map abd gives directions. If I have to say dead-dead one more time and you pretend you don't know what dead-dead means, I'll write off not just as silly but an idjut. I doubt many here would blame me for doing so.

The word 'death' in everyday vernacular goes through a zillion permutations, just as the word 'kill' (you do it again and I'll kill you I swear rarely an actual threat of homicide). What you described is commonly agreed upon in both vernacular and precise-speaking as an NDE. I think I mentioned it before.

I ain't learning anything from doing your homework, Lisa, but you may yet.

"There are plenty of people who don't see eternal-ness as a necessary quality of death."

In fact, very few do, but that's because our minds rebel at mortality. It's hard enough for us to grasp that we're here, now, alive. Grasping that this might end (and it will) creates an almost universal denial impulse, especially when it comes to losing loved ones. Ancestor worship is perhaps the oldest religion.

Now: if you wish to discuss matters with me, pay attention. I can't go any slower than I already am, especially just for you to pretend I'm you're horse you can crack a whip over. I'm the guy on the horizon going hoarse from hollering 1&1=2 at you until my voice gives out.

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The Drake
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The Onion breaks this first...

Treasury plan to recall all dollars

"We understand that this recall will be hard on US citizens who will have no more money, but we assure you if you work hard you will be eventually able to earn it back"

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kenmeer livermaile
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If one considers the premise of this joke one can see how local/alternative currency would work.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Until then I still get to be ridiculously immature."

Slacker. Real working class heroes carry immaturity all the way to being CEO of huge company, then quadruple it.

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TommySama
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KE, first two on the top left. I don't take a lot of pictures, and that was apparently all I actually managed to get that night. As you can clearly see, I do not remember either of those pictures
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Lina Inverse
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
See. You're still being silly on this. My guess this is ego-driven. When the ego drives, silly holds the map abd gives directions.

Whereas you are, of course, perfectly dispassionate and altruistic when you get into arguments.

quote:
If I have to say dead-dead one more time and you pretend you don't know what dead-dead means, I'll write off not just as silly but an idjut. I doubt many here would blame me for doing so.
I know perfectly well how you're defining death. I don't have a problem with you defining death that way. What I do have a problem with is your insistence that everyone must define death in exactly the same way that you do, and that there is some kind of inconsistency when other people use the word in a way that contradicts your definition but doesn't contradict theirs.

quote:
In fact, very few do, but that's because our minds rebel at mortality. It's hard enough for us to grasp that we're here, now, alive. Grasping that this might end (and it will) creates an almost universal denial impulse, especially when it comes to losing loved ones. Ancestor worship is perhaps the oldest religion.
Okay, protip: if most people's definition of death contradicts your definition of death, then you need to either roll with it and stop criticizing them for the logical use of their own definitions, or come up with some compelling reason why they should stop using their own definition and start using yours. Saying "lol they're all in denial" is not very compelling.

[ April 17, 2009, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Lina Inverse ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Whereas you are, of course, perfectly dispassionate and altruistic when you get into arguments."

See? You're being silly AGAIN.

"What I do have a problem with is your insistence that everyone must define death in exactly the same way that you do, and that there is some kind of inconsistency when other people use the word in a way that contradicts your definition but doesn't contradict theirs."

Silly again again. I'm insisting nothing but that we acknowledge how death is used in the most common vernacular before we acknowledge how a certain religious populace uses it.

But this does bring up a valid point: more people than not will say (typically at a funeral): 'He/she is in a better place.'

But this happens after they move their emotions through the gried of acknowledging dead-dead.

Even today, even with ardent Xtians, we first perceive dead-dead before we move on to our comforting and inspiring belief in dead-on-earth-but-not-in-afterlife.

"Okay, protip: if most people's definition of death contradicts your definition of death, then you need to either roll with it and stop criticizing them for the logical use of their own definitions, or come up with some compelling reason why they should stop using their own definition and start using yours. Saying "lol they're all in denial" is not very compelling."

And even sillier. Why? Because I'm right and you're wrong and that just sucks, don'it? Meanwhile I enjoy watching you chase your tail backwards (help! my butt is AFTER me!)

Remember: this all started over me pointing out the silliness of saying Jesus died for your sins as expressed at large in a vernacular language medium, even going to the pain of pointing out how Jesus *conquered death so that we might live forever' doesn't create that semantical *confusion*. because, you see, lest we forget, the point of language and definitions is to communicate things we can understand in common.

What a concept huh? Think about it. It's quite the thing when you get it. [!MajorMAJORSarcasmalert!!!]

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Lina Inverse
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If you refuse to accept the fact that death can mean different things to different people, then I'm not going to bother arguing with you any more.

[ April 17, 2009, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Lina Inverse ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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I didn;t refuse to accept that. Perhaps you're hallucinating via reading comprehension? Just an hypothesis, mind you. I really haven;t a clue why you're being so dense (other than my ego postulate).
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kenmeer livermaile
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But try it this way:

Death comes first (to us all, except maybe the Enochians), resurrection comes after. Since resurrection is hypothetical while what I call dead-dead is empirically evident to us all (you know: 'he's dead; we buried his arse), perhaps you can use that logic to understand that what death *means* to us metaphysically tends to be trumped by what our senses (them things by which we perceive reality) observe to actually happen.

Which, BTW, totally embraces the concept that Jesus conquered death when he *appeared* to do but, lo! came back to life as the Bible claims.

It's not that hard, Lisa, to comprehend this, and your faith might actually be enhanced by a bit of semantical rigor in the here and now in which we're alive and kicking and writing/reading these words.

P.S. I'm still right; you're still wrong. Not that it matters a hill of beans, because reality seems to do as it will and tends to override our most wishful thinking to the best our senses can attest.

But then, maybe I'm writing to you from beyond the grave. Just to be a smartass, of course.

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kenmeer livermaile
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P.P.S. I'd make a wager but they say you can;t take it with you so it would be a hollow bet.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Or, as J. Lennon sang:

"Last night the wife said,
Poor boy when you're dead,
You don't take nothing with you but your soul..."

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kenmeer livermaile
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'Okay, protip: if most people's definition of death contradicts your definition of death, then you need to either roll with it and stop criticizing them for the logical use of their own definitions, or come up with some compelling reason why they should stop using their own definition and start using yours. Saying "lol they're all in denial" is not very compelling."

I didn't really answer this properly. Here:

I distinguish between logical (dare I say sane?) persons' definition-as-defined-by-experience of death and their definition-as-defined-by-wishful-thinking definition of death.

I don't mind dulling Occam's razor by adding an unnecessary entity in this matter, because we all WANT said entity, but I insist on keeping track of where the sharpest point began before it was dulled by our yearning to not end when we die.

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