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Author Topic: Miscellaneous Chat - Part 2
MxPickle
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Email me too when you get the chance, Pete. KnightEnder@gmail.com.

KE

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Pete at Home
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Funean?

<crickets chirping>

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AI Wessex
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Great political cartoon caption this morning: "He could be psychotic, or he could be appealing to his base."
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by MxPickle:
Email me too when you get the chance, Pete. KnightEnder@gmail.com.

KE

Did you get my reply from my gmail account?
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TommySama
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I will never forget: woman running up, leaping, and nose diving straight into the cement.
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Greg Davidson
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Yay! My youngest son just got in, early decision, to Harvey Mudd College!
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scouser1
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From this moment on, I'm leaving here, this time for good. This place holds good memories, and bad. Mostly bad. [Frown]
I have been blessed to have met some awesome people on here, some who i'll still be in touch with through other outlets. If anyone else would like to keep in touch, that would be awesome [Smile]
I'm thinking of starting up a blog soon too, don't know what about, but i'll think of something [Smile]

My Facebook:
www.facebook.com/la.femme.firecracker

My Twitter:
www.twitter.com/laffirecracker

My Tumblr (random musings):
www.tumblr.com/blog/lafemmefirecracker

Anyways, hope you all have a great Christmas and New Year, and hope you all have wonderful and fulfilling lives.

Peace out [Smile]

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scifibum
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That's great, Greg. [Smile] (Wish I checked in on this thread more often, rather than let that echo for two days...)

scouser, good luck with everything. Hope you find more positive than negative memories from here on out.

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Wayward Son
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Great news, Greg. Harvey Mudd is a good college. And it's right next to my old stomping grounds of Pomona.

(BTW, tell him to stay away from Pomona. [Big Grin] )

Sorry to see you go, scouser. [Frown]

[ December 20, 2011, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Wayward Son ]

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MxPickle
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What did y'all allow to happen that ran Scouser off? It amazes me that y'all allow a few horrible members run off so many good ones. Good ones that had been here for years, and managed to stay through so many just 'merely' bad members. But I guess when you realize that this place is rotten from the roots up you aren't really all that surprised.

Scouser's been on my FB page since y'all allowed that scumbag to insult my family and force me to make the decision to leave so at least I won't be missing out on a great person like her. Of course OA can't say the same.

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MxPickle
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Oh, by the way my charge, the one that sent me to two jails and cost me $500 was dropped! Shocker! Not really since it was obvious from the start that the charge was a bull**** attempt at punishing me for not being properly deferential to the local Gestapo.

Be back the next time I get this bored.

Merry Christmas to my few real friends left here. You know who you are. I hope the rest of you get coal in your stockings.

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scifibum
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I don't know that you have a leg to stand on, criticizing people for "allowing" whatever scouser was cryptically referring to, "allowing" someone to insult you, but dropping in merely when you're bored?

I mean, who are you talking to? We're all just participants here. If you think WE are responsible for making it better, YOU damn well are. You can't do that while tossing a stink bomb on your way out. You also can't do it while being "forced" out by an insult.

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scifibum
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I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just don't get it. If you care about the community, you don't bail on it repeatedly while insulting everyone left.

If you don't care any more, that's fine, but then why the lecture?

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TommySama
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BPD.
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Pete at Home
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DAMNIT, who keeps unregistering old people?

It screws up the search engine. Please stop it.

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winkey151
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Hi guys... Have you missed me? Hahaha I just saw that they were finally making a Enders Game movie and thought I would come by and say hello. [Smile]


Hello.....

[ December 22, 2011, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: winkey151 ]

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hobsen
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Nice to have you stop by, Winkey. I can vaguely remember when you were very active, and of course you have been missed. But people's lives change, and remaining active in old venues can take too much time from newer interests. Anyway, thanks for the visit, and may you have a good holiday season, as should currently active members as well.
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winkey151
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Thanks Hobsen.. [Smile] Back at ya and to all those who walk these hallowed halls.
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TommySama
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Peter, emailed your yahoo account.
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MxPickle
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Scifi, Because I did care about this place a lot for a long time and it pisses me off that y'all let it become what it has become. I stop by to see what's going on and I see Scouser leaving and it pisses me off so I say what I want to say. An insult didn't run me out. It was either leave or hunt down G2's IP address when, the Internet tough guy that he is, started attacking my family. Since none of my "friends" nor the Mod's here did a damn thing to stop him. I answer out of a lingering sense of friendship for you not out of any need to conform with the rules of this joke of a forum.

Tommy, I'll lower myself to talk to you this once; is BPD aimed at me and if so what does it mean? It would be just like you to insult a guy in a language he doesn't speak. How do you say pathetic punk in whatever language you speak?

Damn, Hobsen, I was so hoping you died of old age.

Hi, Winkey.

[ December 28, 2011, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: MxPickle ]

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AI Wessex
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Merry Christmas to you, too.
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TommySama
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quote:
How do you say pathetic punk in whatever language you speak?
I exchange 'pathetic punk' for knightender or mxpickle; eventually I will have to switch to the handle you create after your next embarrassing public emotional break down on this forum. Please don't worry little Mene, it might not feel like it this week, but the moon will smile upon you again.

[ December 29, 2011, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by MxPickle:
Merry Christmas to my few real friends left here. You know who you are.

I thought I was, but you still haven't emailed me. [Frown]

Give me a damned call, jailbird. [Wink]

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Pete at Home
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This is a bizarre Christmas for me, playing D&D with my kids and soon to be ex wife. [Frown] at their insistence.

Last we left off in august when they left, they were crossing an ocean of dust to escape the prison - state of an insane sorcerer-king who I kind of based on Caligula and Kim Jong Il. Now they are battling some dude in a flying out vessel drawn by seven psionic "braindeer." good times, good times.

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D Pace
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Pete, you are a wonderful man.

I hope, pray, and trust that everything may be okay with you and and your family now or someday.

Merry Christmas.

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Athelstan
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Maybe it’s the time of year for old ghosts to appear. I’ve been reading the forum but not contributing as mostly I haven’t a clue what anybody is writing about.

I am prompted by Pete’s reference to unreal worlds and old people to make my own confession.
Some months ago I noticed a small button on my computer screen with the words “Play for Free” and now I’m locked in three virtual Grepolis Worlds of Alliances, Light Ships and New Year truces. At the moment I am massing my forces on two worlds in preparation for oncoming New Year offences as instructed by my various Heads of Alliances. I really must get out more.

Perhaps I will contribute next year when our thoughts might turn to an event that is marking its bicentennial. I of course refer to an event that was started by American War Hawks and carried out by land hungry Kentuckian adventurers will the sole purpose of capturing Canada. Or maybe it’s only going to be celebrated in Canada as they are of the opinion that they won it.

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seekingprometheus
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Paladine:

If you followed me over here, my question is regarding your thoughts on protecting pots at the turn.

Like I said, it's a loose-aggressive game, and I'm having no trouble rolling up against these guys, because I'm consistently getting the money in when I have the best hand, and staying clear of committing my chips when I don't have the best of it.

But I wonder if I might not be better served to protect my pots more aggressively at the turn, instead of trying to build the pot against guys who seem willing to bluff their draws almost every time.

Last time I played, I got murdered on the river when flushes kept turning up for opponents whom I pulled all-in with passive-aggressive play at the turn. The math worked out on the pot odds, since the pre-turn pots weren't big enough to outweigh my 4 to 1 return I should get on the money I put in at the turn, so I'm not unhappy with the play in theory, in spite of the vicissitudes of luck, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on protecting a hand against the draw when you know you're consistently enough better than your opponents to make safe money chipping away early in the hand and taking down pots early to avoid the luck of the draw.

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threads
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You should probably post some sample hands; there's no simple rule on how to bet the turn. However, a rule of thumb is that if people are chasing their draws then bet big with your value hands. If they keep calling then keep betting bigger and bigger until they start folding (and then back off a little).

That said, your opponents aren't necessarily incorrect for calling with worse than 4:1 odds with a flush draw if they can make money back from you when they hit. How are you playing the river when the flush comes in? Are you betting and losing? Are you folding and assuming they have the flush? Are you checking?

Need sample hands.

[ January 01, 2012, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: threads ]

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seekingprometheus
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Threads:

No implied odds, since on all three hands it happened I pushed all-in on 4th street.

I'm actually OK by the numbers, I did push my opponent to make a bad call--my question has more to do with whether I should take down my pots when it's sure money, rather than leave it up to the luck of the draw when I feel like I can dictate the play whichever way I want.

Here's one of the hands, as best as I remember it:

It's $1-2 no limit hold'em with a house rule: If a player wins with 7-2 everyone at the table pays $5 to his pot. I'm in late-middle position, and I have seven (heart) deuce (club? not a heart). The action comes to me after two players limp in, so I make it $25 to go, just trying to steal my house-rule jackpot. The button calls, and so does the big blind, the limpers and SB fold.

$80 in the pot.

The flop comes A(h) 7(d) 3(h).

BB checks to me, I represent the ace with a weakish $30. Button smooth calls, BB folds.

$140 pot.

4th street trips me up with a black 7. My read on dealer is (correctly) flush draw. And here's the nub of the issue: I sense, (again, correctly) that if I play weak, he'll bluff at the pot, and I can get all the chips in. So I make $30, like I'm just trying to control the action, and sure enough, he pushes to $120. Seeing his raise puts the pot at $380, and I raise him the rest of his chips, around $250. That made his call $250, with a 1 in 5 shot at an $880 pot.

His call is a mistake, and I'm not unhappy with this play, even though the poker gods gave him a heart on the river.

(He was playing KQ hearts, btw).

But the issue I'm trying to figure out is whether to run the cards when I feel like I'm playing the man well enough to chop it up in early play without having to turn over cards. My slow-play risked leaving my $140 on the table, in order to get an extra $370 in at 4 to 1.

It's still the right play, if my math is right, but I try not to make plays that give me even odds on my money when I feel I can beat the player. (I wouldn't play big slick all-in against a pair pre-flop against a player I know I can beat in the long run--even if other folded players had loaded the pot enough to make it better than even odds on my money). I'm looking for a handy heuristic, beyond the simple math--that allows me to look at it in terms of how much of an edge I estimate I have against a given PLAYER instead of just the math on the return on my money in terms of random probability.

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seekingprometheus
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I don't ever play in the casinos, because I think the rake wrecks the margin, there are better players there, and if I play too much I lose focus and tilt.

The game I lucked into is the casino dealer's home game--and in addition to a bunch of action-hungry guys who are playing wrong because they sit around all day watching action without being able to play, they tend to bring home dead-money dupes (like my co-worker who invited me).

Plus, they keep the pot right and the action moving professionally, and I don't have to kick a rake to the house or tip the dealers.

It's the perfect game for me. [Smile]

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threads
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You really can't complain about getting in most of your money as a 5.5:1 favorite, right? If you're playing enough hands and losing money, it isn't from people sucking out on flush draws.

That said, I do have some comments on your hand (warning: not a pro):
Your preflop raise is pretty small. With two players in, I'd be raising at least $35 here. Notice that with your raise, you are giving the BB and the limpers 2:1 to call so they are unlikely to fold (especially in a house game where, I suspect, most players are going to be loose).

Your flop bet is way to small. I would interpret a $30 bet as a weak hand, not an ace. Betting $30 here with an Ace is really bad. By offering 5.5:1 odds you are going to bring in a lot of weakish hands. With 72, you want hands to fold but flush draws clearly aren't folding, 7x should be drawing for two-pair for 5.5:1, and pocket pairs might not fold either if your opponents suspect you might have unpaired broadways. I'd bet around $100, which would be my standard bet with an Ace. Following that line the turn would be an easy shove.

I'm not too experienced at no-limit so my advice may not be great. Maybe Paladine or JoshuaD could jump in here.

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threads
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
I'm looking for a handy heuristic, beyond the simple math--that allows me to look at it in terms of how much of an edge I estimate I have against a given PLAYER instead of just the math on the return on my money in terms of random probability.

For a low level game you're generally going to be against players who are too passive and too loose. General rule of thumb is to bet big for value, rarely bluff, and be very wary of bets and raises. Beyond that, look for what players do. If a player leads with good hands on the flop then if they don't lead then they don't have a good hand. If a player is willing to check/fold on a flop heads-up then a check/call means they have something. You're probably not playing against high level players so assume they are low level until they prove you otherwise.
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seekingprometheus
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I'm not losing money at this game.

I took away $600 the 1st time I played, and even with my bad beats I ended up walking away with more than I bought in for the other night. The problem was walking away with $20 profit for 5 hours of play when I could have easily walked with $700 with a little more aggressive play against the draw.

The preflop was pretty standard for a steal for me at this table. My standard for building value for decent hole cards at the table is 10-15. $30 might have been better, but much more telegraphs the pot buy with a 7-2, someone will usually cover a bet that's too big on the suspicion that it's a jackpot buy. These guys bet their legit hands, so the limpers were just trying to see a flop. (And it wasn't 2 to 1 for the limper money til the button called--it was a $23 call at $32 in the pot).

The $30 flop bet WAS weak, but it was really a simple information bet--BB had missed, but I needed to see if the reason the button had called the preflop was because he had an ace. If he doesn't even consider raising on my weak bid for control (which he didn't) it means he missed the flop, or is on a draw. If he does raise, (or even just considers the raise) I get a read on how confident he is in his hand. His easy call meant draw--he was happy the bet didn't hurt too much to see another card, and didn't pause or chip-check to think about the raise. That weak bet gave me exactly the info I wanted, and it pushed the BB out to afford a little more protection to my weak pair.

I didn't have the ace, I had a weak second pair with a trash kicker, and I don't bluff without a solid read on my opponent. I didn't have a fix on what button was playing until he reacted to my flop bet. The weakness may have drawn aggression from a stronger player, but, like I said--my strength is playing the man, and this guy wasn't coming over top after I had been controlling the action unless he had a hand. If I had checked, it would have conceded the perception of controlling the action, so my choice was bluff a guy who had called a strong preflop bet on nothing but a prayer that he wasn't holding an ace, or bid for control with as little exposure as possible.

If I had actually had the ace, I'd have played it different, obviously, but out-of-position without any info except a strong preflop call is simply not the right place to bluff, in my book.

[ January 02, 2012, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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threads
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Ah... misread your post and thought it was a $5 BB instead of $2. Ignore what I said about preflop raise sizing [Razz]

quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
The $30 flop bet WAS weak, but it was really a simple information bet--BB had missed, but I needed to see if the reason the button had called the preflop was because he had an ace. If he doesn't even consider raising on my weak bid for control (which he didn't) it means he missed the flop, or is on a draw. If he does raise, (or even just considers the raise) I get a read on how confident he is in his hand. His easy call meant draw--he was happy the bet didn't hurt too much to see another card, and didn't pause or chip-check to think about the raise. That weak bet gave me exactly the info I wanted, and it pushed the BB out to afford a little more protection to my weak pair.

I'm actually reconsidering my earlier position on your bet size (again, I'm no pro). I like the idea of a smaller bet than what I recommended earlier (I think a bet is mandatory because our opponent will often have overs to our 7 and we don't want to give him a free chance at 6 outs). The hands that our opponent might consider continuing with are aces, pocket pairs, pair of sevens, set of sevens, set of twos, and flush draws. I don't think he will have a pair of 7s very often and I'm not sure if he will fold 88-JJ for a flop bet. With that in mind it looks like we only need to size our bet to fold out overs so I actually like your bet size now!

quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
I didn't have the ace, I had a weak second pair with a trash kicker, and I don't bluff without a solid read on my opponent.

Unless your opponents peel loose here then you want to be bluffing this flop. Your opponents are liable to have a lot of broadway and midrange hands that haven't connected and can't realistically continue.

[ January 02, 2012, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: threads ]

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seekingprometheus
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Still disagree with you on the value of the bluff in this situation. (This might be a limit vs no limit issue).

In general, I see the bluff as a weak play. In no limit, you tend to lose more when you bluff and get called, than you win when villain folds. (Your suggestion above risks $100 for an $80 pot.)

The correct bluff plays in no limit necessarily involves a read on villain. In this case, the preflop call forces the consideration of an ace in the caller's hand. I pushed 12 times the big blind, the call means AX, pair or high suited connectors--in that order--anything else is kamikaze-style. The bluff doesn't boot the ace at this table, and it isn't necessarily wrong for the flush draw to call 1 to 2.8 (with implied odds for the hit) with a 35% chance of a heart to come on the draw, especially in this gambler's game.

So in this case, the hole cards that should be playing to see the flop are more likely than not to call. Add the fact that I'm out of position, and I have no info on villain at the time of my move, and this is very much the wrong place to bluff.

If my opponent reads weakness, then the bet on top of my preflop play still looks like a strong pair (kk, qq) made shaky with the ace in the flop--if he doesn't have the ace, he's got to think he has to stick hard to make me drop--and the stakes necessitated make the bluff a hard sell, so I still get the info I was buying.

Bluffing is just a bad proposition as a general rule in no limit--the play should only be made with a solid read. This simple reality is why I've always won in home games. I actually invest in the amateur proclivity to bluff by folding winning hands face up early against the bluff. Give a guy 3 $40 pots on feigned weakness, and he WILL try to buy your slow play with the nuts for $300 later on--and he won't even learn the lesson, since he'll go away thinking he beat you on the play 3 out of 4 times.

Remember that I'm playing with dealers--whose jobs train them to want too much action (you ever sat tight on a run of bad cards til frustration mounted enough to make you play when you shouldn't? These guys have to sit out of the action they watch all day. They sit down on major tilt)--and the dead-money donators they bring home to split up.

My whole question here is how much to hedge against even solid gambles when I've got the game cracked enough beat the man and take the luck off the table.

Like I said, it's easy to get money in when I have the best hand--all I need to do is sit patiently and watch them play bad cards...

[ January 02, 2012, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:

In general, I see the bluff as a weak play. In no limit, you tend to lose more when you bluff and get called, than you win when villain folds. (Your suggestion above risks $100 for an $80 pot.)

I actually just sucked when I read your first post and just misread everything. I was thinking $100 into $140. At this point it would be best to ignore that entire first post. A bet of $30 into $80 is entirely reasonably [DOH] [DOH]

quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
The correct bluff plays in no limit necessarily involves a read on villain.

A default strategy of never bluffing means you'll be giving up a lot of pots that you can easily (and cheaply) win.

quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
In this case, the preflop call forces the consideration of an ace in the caller's hand. I pushed 12 times the big blind, the call means AX, pair or high suited connectors--in that order--anything else is kamikaze-style.

Yet you say later that they play bad cards. Gamblers and bad players love broadway hands. Gamblers and bad players love suited cards.

Also, if he is tight enough to only have high suited connectors and pairs here then there is no way he has Ax in his range. Probably AJ+ at best if he is that tight.

Do people in your game tend to 3-bet hands like AQ , AK, QQ+ (or looser?).

quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
So in this case, the hole cards that should be playing to see the flop are more likely than not to call.

Right, but your bluff only needs to work at most 37.5% of the time. The actual percentage is less since you'll have outs against most hands that call.

quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
Bluffing is just a bad proposition as a general rule in no limit--the play should only be made with a solid read.

That is horribly wrong [Razz] You can do fine against weak players by never bluffing but a few c-bets here and there will pick you some extra cash when heads-up.

[ January 03, 2012, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: threads ]

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quote:
Originally posted by D Pace:
Pete, you are a wonderful man.

I hope, pray, and trust that everything may be okay with you and and your family now or someday.

Merry Christmas.

Thank you! I'm in the airport about to fly back to Gommorah, and just saw your kind post.

The game went great.

Thing Two lit up in a terrific grin when he first saw.me last week before Christmas, and was very sad to see me go. Kept saying "I want daddy soup" which is what he calls the Thai curries that I kept making him, he's always devoured.it and I tend to think that LR is probably right that some spice has a mineral or something that relieves a symptom. Some genius finally invented lemon grass in a tube which halved.the time to prep Thai curry.

Things with my wife seem less promising but she did at.least enjoy the game. There is part.of.me that hopes.she's going to show up on my doorstep in April and say April Fool, of course I would never leave you.

[ January 03, 2012, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Funny thing is she did say at the end that I was welcome to come.crash whenever to GM another game. I feel like sheherizad. 1001 dice.

[ January 03, 2012, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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seekingprometheus
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quote:
A default strategy of never bluffing means you'll be giving up a lot of pots that you can easily (and cheaply) win.
You seem to be missing the fact that this is not my default strategy. Rather, to the contrary, my assertion is that a default strategy on the bluff is a mistake--the bluff is an interactive play, and it requires a read on the dynamic interaction with a given opponent.

Even a bluff in perfect theoretical position--the perfect place and time--is a losing play if you don't have a reason to believe the opponent will fold.

I take a lot of pots down on bluffs--precisely because my read on the dynamic is usually pretty good, relatively speaking. I play lower level players at home games, and my strength isn't actually in the numbers (though most of my opponents don't have a clue of how to apply probability), my strength is knowing how to get a call, and how to make an opponent fold.

Here's the point, made real simple: playing a bluff "by the book" is a mistake if you don't have a reason to believe your opponent is playing by a similar "book" governing decisions.

It's why I don't play online. Can't manipulate people to do what I want them to do, and can't see it when someone is manipulating me...

I don't even believe that online poker is real poker...

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quote:
Also, if he is tight enough to only have high suited connectors and pairs here then there is no way he has Ax in his range. Probably AJ+ at best if he is that tight.
He's not that tight. Any suited connectors (and a lot of unsuited connectors) might have played for him if he felt like the stars were with him on that play. I shouldn't have said "high suited connectors," I should have said he was likely to play high cards if they were suited or connected. (Low suited connectors would have played too).

In any case, I've seen this guy turn over A6 unsuited after calling a big preflop bet. I think it's because he loves the lucky button. If he has something that could hit in his hand, and he's got the best seat at the table, he's playing that hand.

(I did consider the bluff--would have been foolish not to, given my preflop play--but like I said, I always check the bluff against my gut, which was telling me that that buying the pot was gonna be expensive than I was willing to risk against the chances he was holding something he would call with.)

This guy is usually more aggressive, too. I think he didn't bet out on the flop only because he respected my preflop raise, and the fact that I've been rolling up fast with play that seems real tight to these guys.

But, in any case, I just don't bluff against guys til I've got a mental notebook of some sort on them.

(Except for when I do... [Wink] )

[ January 04, 2012, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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