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Author Topic: Change isn't all that easy
jimskater
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Excerpted from my blog:

quote:
The day ended on a bizarre note. Steve & I took his mom out to our favorite cheap spaghetti place tonight (and proceeded to have penne, lasagna & rigatoni instead). On the way back to the car, we witnessed a drive-by hate crime. Three young white guys--in a late model BMW 3 series sedan--pulled up and egged a black man, right in front of us, yelling something along the lines of "Take that you f***ing n****r". They then sped off. All this poor guy was doing was taking a break from his bike ride home his second job by sitting at a bus stop. And along came three spoiled young scions of the East County aristocracy, may they wrap their car around a telephone pole.
Now I ask, WTF is going on? If this s*** is going to go on for the next four years, I'm going to be sorely tempted to go vigilante.

Goddammit, evidently change isn't all that easy.

I used the term "hate crime" because that's what the 911 operator called it, so please don't start in on the merits of hate crime legislation. Quote the operator: "Sheriff's office, Highway Patrol transferring a call, I have an individual reporting a hate crime."

[ November 16, 2008, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: jimskater ]

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TommySama
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You actually saw that happen? Geez. It might have just been a freak coincidence.
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Haggis
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jim,

I gotta ask, was this restaurant in Klantee or Laketucky?

I'm gonna guess you were east of the 125.

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jimskater
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Brown haired 20 something in the passenger seat, yelling & throwing eggs. Face twisted in hate.


Yeah, I saw it. [Mad]

Given the demographics of East San Diego County, I'm willing to bet the little f*****s were out looking. This rat bastard is from the next town over. As are these f***s. Tom Metzger lived not 10 miles from my house.

[ November 16, 2008, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: jimskater ]

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jimskater
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Haggis, I was in Spring Valley/Casa de Oro.

Hwy 94 & Campo Rd.

Near enough, and definitely east of the 125

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Haggis
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Hmmmm. Based on your description, I do agree with your assessment.

[ November 16, 2008, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Haggis ]

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jimskater
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So, do you think I should take the loss & sell?

(In other words, is this only going to get worse for the next 4 - 8 years? )

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Stevarooni
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quote:
Originally posted by jimskater:
Now I ask, WTF is going on?

Unfortunately, idiots continue to exist, even after November 4th. Yes, what you saw was pathetic and scary in its connotations, but I'll bet you were surrounded by others who were shocked and dismayed as well. The existence of one hot dog bun with a rat in should not be construed as a sign that every hot dog bun is likely to be rodent-infested.
quote:
Originally posted by jimskater:
Goddammit, evidently change isn't all that easy.

For those half-wits, they aren't trying to change, they're just...idiots. That doesn't mean that they're the only ones around, but the fact that they egged the guy rather than lynching him in a public square is refreshing, isn't it? And I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the police will try to catch them.

[ November 16, 2008, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Stevarooni ]

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Haggis
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I think there are always going to be f***tards like these idiots who are only going to further marginalize themselves. But yeah, it may suck for a while.
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TommySama
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"The existence of one hot dog bun with a rat in should not be construed as a sign that every hot dog bun is likely to be rodent-infested. "

First, can I use this in the future? Second, WHAT!?

Interesting. I read that sentence about 4 times, each time my mental image was of a raccoon sitting in a hotdog bun. Interesting.

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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
"The existence of one hot dog bun with a rat in should not be construed as a sign that every hot dog bun is likely to be rodent-infested. "

First, can I use this in the future? Second, WHAT!?

Interesting. I read that sentence about 4 times, each time my mental image was of a raccoon sitting in a hotdog bun. Interesting.

It's obvious that Stevarooni hasn't looked too closely at what hot dogs are made from [Smile]
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hobsen
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Get your species straight, Tommy. Raccoons are not rodents. They are related to dogs and cats and bears. Besides, they are too big to fit in a hot dog bun.
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Stevarooni
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
First, can I use this in the future? Second, WHAT!?

[Big Grin] First, sure and you can. Second, I saw a story in which (now that I found it again) a mouse was baked into hot dog buns (Youtube news story...kind of gross, but not graphic in any way). It's similar in that, obviously this is an alarming thing to see and troubling; one would be inclined to be wary of hot dog buns/public settings because of it, but it's most likely not a frequent occurrence. Realistically, more QC/stricter control of eggs is necessary, but it's also an incident and probably not the harbinger of a trend.
quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
I read that sentence about 4 times, each time my mental image was of a raccoon sitting in a hotdog bun.

[Razz] Well, the cookie exchange ought to be interesting this year. [Wink]

[ November 16, 2008, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Stevarooni ]

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Stevarooni
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quote:
Originally posted by Rallan:
It's obvious that Stevarooni hasn't looked too closely at what hot dogs are made from [Smile]

[LOL] Well, see, you don't normally get the good and bad parts of a critter in a hot dog. Mouse fillets? In a hot dog? That's ludicrous! Most brands only give you the paws & eyebrows.

[ November 16, 2008, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Stevarooni ]

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flydye45
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When I read jim's report, I immediately saw it as "payback" for proposition 8. I'm sure that is not how jim saw it...but it is equally as plausible considering recent news. More so. Much easier to brush it off as rednecks instead of cohorts.

Whomever did it, that is not cricket.

[ November 17, 2008, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

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Stevarooni
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
When I read jim's report, I immediately saw it as "payback" for proposition 8.

...so what we have is a clear case of "hate crime". Who needs clarification on the particular species of hate?
quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
Whomever did it, that is not cricket.

I had assumed that, myself. The lack of cricket bats was my first hint. [Wink]
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flydye45
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quote:
Originally posted by Stevarooni:
[QB] so what we have is a clear case of "hate crime". Who needs clarification on the particular species of hate?

The merit of asking the question is to find out which side of the stable needs to rake it out.

It's bad, therefore easier to pin on one side versus unpleasant introspection on another. Scapegoating avoids the "philosophical signals" which are as necessary as the economic ones.

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Pete at Home
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Good for you, Jim. I had the same impression, Fly. So what do you say that we just blame it on those stupid humans?
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jimskater
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Three white guys, attacking a black man, in an area with a reputation for racial bias (Hello, Tom Metzger, are you home?) screaming "Take that you ****ing nigger" and it's a payback for Prop 8??? Given the preponderance of the evidence (and I think Haggis can back me up on this) we can safely assume garden variety racial bias was the motive.

But to link it to a Prop 8 reaction, WTF? I'm having a hard time making that leap. Especially as someone who, at various times in my life, has been both beaten up & verbally harassed for being gay.

For what it's worth, even the victim didn't assume that it was Prop 8 related. He said something along the lines of "I know where I am, I should have been more aware." He even thanked us for our help, and didn't comment on the "Just married" t-shirts both Steve & I were wearing. (We had attended the jointheimpact.com overturn 8 rally earlier in the day.)

But, yeah, I can agree that it boils down to "stupid humans."

[ November 18, 2008, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: jimskater ]

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jimskater
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Maybe I should have been more clear? The late model BMW was approx 15 years old, 2 or three body styles back.
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Haggis
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quote:
Given the preponderance of the evidence (and I think Haggis can back me up on this) we can safely assume garden variety racial bias was the motive.
Absolutely. If it were in Hillcrest, I would agree with Pete and Tom. The demographics of the area suggest a racial motivation, rather than a Prop 8 related crime.
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Pete at Home
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I take your word for it, since I know nothing about demographics or about vehicle years. I didn't mean to suggest that my first impressions were somehow authoritative.

quote:
Originally posted by jimskater:
But to link it to a Prop 8 reaction, WTF? I'm having a hard time making that leap. Especially as someone who, at various times in my life, has been both beaten up & verbally harassed for being gay.

That's something else we have in common, Jim, even though I've always been straight. In high school I thought "gay" was something bullies made up, like foreplay to an asskicking. Ugly words. They still sound like violence to me. I don't understand why anyone would "reclaim" such hate.

[ November 18, 2008, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Haggis
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Either way, it's a screwed up situation, regardless of the motivation. Misdirecting anger based on religion or race is just plain wrong all the way across the board, and I would stand up for someone who is black, Mormon, Muslim, Evangelical, gay, or any other category ignorant fools would try to pigeonhole someone into.

[ November 18, 2008, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Haggis ]

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munga
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Pete, you must be kidding. Someone wanted to beat the stuffing out of you?

I can't believe it.

And, let me comment that your "identification" with Jim's possibly daily-experienced bigotry was an amazing way to totally discount Jim's reality, Pete. That was really classy of you, Pete, while you are simultaneously pushing to keep that bigotry alive and well by arguing that gay-folks should have a separate (unequal) civil contracts rather than allowing them to use the same one we have.

But I'm totally sure Jim feels your respect for him and his partner.

[ November 18, 2008, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: munga ]

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Pete at Home
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Yes. I stood up for a friend who was being targeted, and I knew when I did it that I'd get my ass kicked for it. Nothing you would ever understand, munga.

[ November 18, 2008, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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munga
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Gosh. I've never stood up for anyone. I've never crusaded for thousands of people's equal rights to development and to their tax money and called officials in five states on the carpet and made sure the most corrupt lost their jobs.

Yep, I'm a novice, over here.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
let me comment that your "identification" with Jim's possibly daily-experienced bigotry was an amazing way to totally discount Jim's reality, Pete.

You don't know shyt, munga. I'd have stood up for Jim, and I'd have got my ass kicked for it, because I'm not much of a fighter. But I do know how to humilliate a bully. You remember that.

Saying that I got beat up by a bunch of guys who accused me of being gay doesn't trivialize Jim's experience. You're just too much of a fool to grasp that I might agree with and identify with Jim in anything. And I hope that Jim is savvey enough to see through your cynical attempt to use his family as human shields in your little jihad against your own people.

[ November 18, 2008, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Haggis
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Pete and munga,

Y'all both need to cool your jets and make your points without flinging poo at each other. You are both getting ugly.

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Pete at Home
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OK, Haggis, you've earned the right to lecture me on manners now. [Big Grin]

Cooling jets.

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munga
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Pete,

Tell you what, I would like to pose the question to Jim, if he will entertain it, and I do hope he will. Jim may not wish to participate, but either way we can state our offers.

Jim,

My idea of standing up for you, is to make sure you have equal access to the same domestic contract as any other Californians. You will be expected to subject to the same laws, regarding rights, property, offsping, inheritance, proxy and every other offshoot of the contract. I propose that this be done with a few strokes of the pen, removing the word "marriage" from the domestic civil contract, and making that contract available for any two natural people. This provides you with an instant body of law to refer your cases into, so that your community is not financially burdened by having to re-write and expand any scantily written substitution, supposedly "equal" legislation. Let the word "marriage" be used only for church covenants.

I will stand up for your rights to equal protection under the law, because I think it is the only way to give each person the gift of vision (which was God's idea) to see what is good and bad for themselves, rather than having a society that is, in essence, in any way against the Plan of Salvation that I love by repressing the choices and protections upon the people according to a moral distinction between who is allowed recognition in the courts. This Plan involves perfect freedom for each of us to become on this earth, as we wish to become, in order that we can choose good or evil, which can only be properly identified as good or evil when the other factors (repression, lack of rights, etc) are removed so our vision is clear.

What I'm saying is, I don't believe that your gay-lifestyle is the happiest one, even for you, but I am very willing to be wrong, and I am, more than anything else, willing that you should learn this for yourself. I'll stand beside your rights to do that, any time, anywhere. Further, I will transact (live beside, place trust in, contract with, provide economic development to..) with any gay people on the same basis as straight people. I want you to have my full support while you live your lives and interact with God -who loves you much more than I do- as you and He will.

My only jobs are to love you as anyone else on this earth and to give you the same standing before the law.

That is what my religion teaches me.

Now, Pete, you can state what your idea of standing up for Jim is.

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Pete at Home
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If Jim is interested in this little ass-kissing contest that you're proposing, then I'll be very surprised, munga. I think I've made clear to Jim what I mean by standing up for him, and I don't think that your poisonous attempt to reconstruct what I said as an attack on Jim, or a trivializing of his experience, is going to work. I know a little bit about homophobia because I've felt its fist even though I'm not gay. If you think that's trivializing his experience, then you are a very very shallow person, munga. I hope Jim sees through you. I certainly do.
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munga
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go ahead and state your preferred plan for his rights, then.

[ November 18, 2008, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: munga ]

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munga
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Am I detecting a small reluctance to create a similar, condensed and distilled statement of your plan for gay folks rights, Pete?
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Pete at Home
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Reality has little bearing on what you detect from me, munga. Remember, you detected me as a typical mormon conservative like the ones you sit with in church every week. And the way you reframe my arguments doesn't exactly inspire confidence in your reality detection skills either.

[ November 18, 2008, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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munga
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Pete, you haven't shown me yet that you have any distinction from those I sit with at church, and I love those guys anyway.

*waiting patiently*

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
Pete, you haven't shown me yet that you have any distinction from those I sit with at church, and I love those guys anyway.

So you say.
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Pete at Home
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Jim, Jordan, and others here in their situation either know my position on their rights by now or nothing will ever get it across. A rote pledge of political correctness won't add anything to the discussion. And I am not as comfortable as you with preaching my politics in religious terms, even though also unlike you I don't condemn others for doing so.

I uphold the 14th Amendment. That's part of my job. It's what I eat live and breathe. Tomorrow, just 7 hours from now, lives may depend on my ability to persuade a judge that the 14th amendment means something. [Frown] Without due process and equal protection, everything that America has become since the end of slavery comes apart. Standing up for someone legally means, to me, standing up for their rights under the law. Fighting against unfairness.

Religiously, and this is an entirely separate matter from the legal argument, I believe that perfect love casts out fear, and that much of homophobia is a manifestations of fear. That which isn't fear, is pride. I think that we'd be better served to spend less effort pretending that we aren't racist, sexist and homophobic, and more time learning to understand each other and to love and serve one another. Love counters fear and humility counters pride.

I am ferociously loyal to the legal principles that I've laid out, and, unfortunately, not as personally consistent with my religious principles. And no, that wasn't an invitation for you to express your judgment of me. You've done that quite enough.

[ November 18, 2008, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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munga
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so, here we go. Here is the applicable part of the 14th amendment:

quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So, what is your plan to provide equal protection in the body of laws called "marriage," a domestic civil contract, to gay folks, using a different contract or using the same contract?

[ November 18, 2008, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: munga ]

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munga
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by munga:
Pete, you haven't shown me yet that you have any distinction from those I sit with at church, and I love those guys anyway.

So you say.
I do love them, Pete.

[ November 18, 2008, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: munga ]

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munga
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
go ahead and state your preferred plan for his equal rights, then.

added 'equal' so that you can frame it per the 14th amendment, per your preference.
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