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Author Topic: Obama sides with Bush on wiretapping
Kent
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From Wired
quote:
The Obama administration fell in line with the Bush administration Thursday when it urged a federal judge to set aside a ruling in a closely watched spy case weighing whether a U.S. president may bypass Congress and establish a program of eavesdropping on Americans without warrants.
I think the term "Neo-Lib" is going to start to be bandied about.
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munga
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WTF
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kenmeer livermaile
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We watch w/ bated breath and I, for one, make no conclusions at this point.
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flydye45
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And Bush was in line with Clinton when he asserted the same right just like Bush I asserted the same thing, and...

If this turns out to be the new boss being the same as the old boss (again, not expecting any reflection) this is what I expect. A lot of liberal bloggers, pundits and news folk will make a sharp spate of "tut tuting" sounds...and then they will shut up, instead of putting it on an endless loop of attacks as they were re: Bush. Enough noise to be on record but not enough to damage "their" guy.

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Everard
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Worth reading the court documents. This isn't falling in line with the bush administration in regards to whether the US president my bypass congress and establish a program of warrantless eavesdropping. Yet.
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by munga:
WTF

This is only the beginning munga.

When all is said and done, and you look at what Obama has done, you will see exactly what I've been writing about here.

Republicrat...Democan. The flavor may be a little different, but the basic substance is still the same.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"If this turns out to be the new boss being the same as the old boss (again, not expecting any reflection) this is what I expect. "

Yeah, it's true as goes. His vote in the senate on this cost him hard core support from much of the left. We remember Jesse, for example.

What Ev said. And everyone has opined that this and related issues would prove to experience much situational nuance.

Soon, though, the holiday may pass and the time to write angry letters return.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"The flavor may be a little different, but the basic substance is still the same."

History proceeds mostly by subtle distinctions in flavors, just like bioevolution. Occasionally, someone actually upsets the stewpot. Usually, short-term catastrophe ensues. The long term results are often lost in the various interpretive trails of historical interpretation.

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Michelle
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Out with the Pompey; in with the Caesar.
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munga
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Let's see what happens.
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kenmeer livermaile
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And not throw rotten cats while we wait?!?

Friggin' communist.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Bated Breath
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RickyB
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This is infuriating, but not actually new.
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cherrypoptart
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I've said all along that if a Democrat did the same things as Bush we wouldn't hear anywhere near the decibel levels of wailing, gnashing of teeth, and the pulling of hair from the Democrats.

Sure enough...

I can't get too worked up over this though. This just proves what I've known all along. In more cases than people will ever care to admit, Bush was right, and some of his tough and unpopular choices saved a lot of American lives.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
This just proves what I've known all along.
Again, I strongly recommend that people on this forum read Manjoo's True Enough.
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Redskullvw
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Didn't I predict this?

Why YES I did.

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TomDavidson
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*rolls eyes*
You know, it's really going to get annoying listening to every vainglorious conservative peacock in earshot spend the next few years crowing about how they SAID Democrats would be upset about electing someone who wasn't so liberal after all.

For SO many reasons.

--------

For the record, I'm not disappointed in Obama yet.

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Psudo
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I think the problem is that warrantless wiretaps of international calls between terrorism suspects and their overseas contacts make good sense. So once you sit in the oval office with reports of the program as it really is (eg, an extremely focused intelligence program that affects only people who are the subjects of serious investigations for concrete reasons) on one side of your desk and intelligence reports as to the real threat of terrorist attacks on the other, you're compelled to see the reality that the costs are minuscule and the benefits are dramatic.

But since I have neither those program reports nor the intelligence reports, I'm just speculating based on logic and the information I have. How crazy am I?

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Everard
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I wonder how many of the people saying "I told you so," have read the court documents and understand whats going on?

My guess: Zero.

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Storm Saxon
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Quite frankly, I don't see any evidence that you have.
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Everard
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*shrug* I think my first post demonstrates that I've read more then any of the "told you so"ers on this thread.

[ January 27, 2009, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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Redskullvw
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Having been the person on Ornery who posted and quoted and sourced to all but the most partisan members a case showing not only what was before congress, what was in the courts, and what was the stated plans of policy by both Obama and McCain in regard to this, across multiple thread- I don't think my pointing out that the status quo would be changed by no candidate once in office is a surprise.

Although at the time a couple of you DID proclaim the Obamanation would be devoid of such trammeling of liberal rights.

I don't know I guess I am ignorant and presumed incapable of making a valid prediction.

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Everard
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"I don't know I guess I am ignorant and presumed incapable of making a valid prediction"

We'll see... so far, there's nothing here. There might be, eventually, but right now... there's not. Obama's administration asked for a stay pending an appeal on the ruling that classified documents be entered as evidence. I'm not sure anyone here expected a change in the position that classified documents be held from being entered as evidence. This is about prosecuting the administration for warrentless wiretapping... not whether the executive branch has that power, or whether it will continue. Outside of this case, there are a number of possible paths that will be followed that will determine whether or not this is an "I told you so," moment... I think most of the political realists around here realized with Obama's immunity vote last summer that there would be no reversal on this particular issue.

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G2
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Add this into the mix:
quote:
The incoming Obama administration will vigorously defend congressional legislation immunizing U.S. telecommunication companies from lawsuits about their participation in the Bush administration's domestic spy program.
That was the assessment Thursday by Eric Holder, President-elect Barack Obama's choice for attorney general, who made the statement during his confirmation hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee. A court challenge questioning the legality of the legislation is pending in U.S. District Court in San Francisco -- where the judge in the case wanted to know what the Obama administration's position was.
"The duty of the Justice Department is to defend statutes that have been passed by Congress," Holder told Sen. Orin Hatch (R-Utah), who asked whether the Obama administration would continue the legal fight to uphold the legislation that the Electronic Frontier Foundation is seeking to overturn.
"Unless there are compelling reasons, I don't think we would reverse course," Holder added.

ROTFLMAO [LOL] Hope and change baby!!!!!! [LOL]

Sigh .... hope and change ...

[ January 27, 2009, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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Everard
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We all knew that was going to happen G2... Obama voted for it. That legislation is what cost him Jesse's volunteer services, and its also the same time I stopped being enthusiastic about him. I suspect you'd hear the same from a lot of other far left types.

What remains to be seen, and whats important in terms of civil liberties, is whether obama defends the warrantless wiretapping as constitutional or not.

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kenmeer livermaile
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What Ev said. Everyone I know who voted for Obama didn't see him as The Messiah. That was a product of his opposition.

I didn't like Obama's vote on this on Congress, and I'm not ecstatic about the current status quo, but then, I haven't read those actual documents either.

So I neither defend nor reject them objectively or subjectively, being too little informed (yet) for either stances to be valid.

But those who would ridicule hope and change for a stance made public long ago during the campaign, seem bitterly foolish to me. Them's is your sour grapes, not ours.

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Everard
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"What Ev said."

You've been saying that a lot recently, KL. I can't decide whether that means my posting is getting more coherent, or I've fallen into the deep end.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Who knows? Information is larger than the personalities dispensing it.
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swbarnes2
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quote:
Originally posted by Psudo:
I think the problem is that warrantless wiretaps of international calls between terrorism suspects and their overseas contacts make good sense. So once you sit in the oval office with reports of the program as it really is (eg, an extremely focused intelligence program that affects only people who are the subjects of serious investigations for concrete reasons)

But that's not what the program is, and we all know it. Federal agents were not only listening to overseas NGO workers having phone sex with their spouses, they were transcribing it.
Why do you think that "focusing" on this kind of thing is a good idea for the government to be engaged in?

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Kent
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Well no wonder they are keeping the program. Obama saw the transcripts.
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Everard
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"Well no wonder they are keeping the program. "

Except... thats not what any of this is about.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Agreed. I read the court papers. I think that in the end of this we will be impressed by the kind of political football Obama can play, especially his skill at throwing long.
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flydye45
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*rolls eyes*
You know, it's really going to get annoying listening to every vainglorious conservative peacock in earshot spend the next few years crowing about how they SAID Democrats would be upset about electing someone who wasn't so liberal after all.

For SO many reasons.

--------

For the record, I'm not disappointed in Obama yet.

Except that is NOT what "vainglorious conservatives" are crowing about. Instead, it is that Bush garnered enormous criticism from Liberals suffering BDS for doing XYZ. Now that there has been a new name painted on the door, there is suddenly a lot of serious reflection, particularly as Obama puts HIS name on X and Y...and even some pundits thinking hard about Z.

Which as Red stated, was exactly as predicted. Suddenly we can't fail in Iraq, not when we've come so far. [Roll Eyes] Suddenly, the T word should be looked at in a mature fashion instead of reflexive denial. (There has been little shifting on this board but they face being called on it, something a newspaper pundit doesn't face in as direct a fashion) Suddenly civil right shrieking isn't...fashionable. Instead a tame "I'm rather disappointed on his stance" is all that's necessary as criticism, instead of the incessant chicken little squealing for 8 years.

It's still early but the shift in tone and the enormous amount of backsliding by reporters and the benefit of the doubt offered on the exact same issues is telling.

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flydye45
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
What Ev said. Everyone I know who voted for Obama didn't see him as The Messiah. That was a product of his opposition.

quote:
KING: OK, is this administration going to be hard for the comics to have fun with?

BEHAR: Yes. And all I can say is thank you for Joe Biden, because he is going to always give us some laughs. He’ll say something crazy and out there, and it will be fun. And Sarah Palin, you know, we can always rely on her to come back and give us some material. But it is really not easy to make fun of the Obamas, because they’re really — they’re kind of really perfect, aren’t they?


quote:
“He is a community organizer like Jesus was,” Sarandon said Tuesday night on the bright blue carpet leading into the Creative Coalition’s 2009 Ball at the Harman Center for the Arts in Chinatown. “And now, we’re a community and he can organize us.”

Let us not forget Time Magazine.

Good luck with that.

[ January 28, 2009, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Susan Sarandon doesn't put any food in my fridge, I don't know her, and only reason I click on articles mentioning her is to see another pic of that gorgeous cleavage, those winsome dimples, and her beautiful brown eyes.

You'd be amazed, perhaps, at how little I try to fit into the Officially Conservative Sanctioned Reading List for Liberals.

As for perfect Obamas: they do cast an elegant glitter, don't they? After their predecessors, well: perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

Write a letter to Time if it bothers you.

[ January 28, 2009, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Suddenly we can't fail in Iraq, not when we've come so far. [Roll Eyes] Suddenly, the T word should be looked at in a mature fashion instead of reflexive denial. (There has been little shifting on this board but they face being called on it, something a newspaper pundit doesn't face in as direct a fashion) Suddenly civil right shrieking isn't...fashionable. Instead a tame "I'm rather disappointed on his stance" is all that's necessary as criticism, instead of the incessant chicken little squealing for 8 years."

There is truth in this, truth that remains true most of the time when partisan power polarities reverse.

However, it is only 8 days into the guy's executive reign. May we Obama supporters practice some prudence at this point before chicken-shrieking?

Today marks the conclusion of the first 1/365th of Obama's tenure.

Re: wire-taps: the initial shrieking was that there was no public knowledge and hardly any on the part of Congress. It was an oversight issue. It made major headlines because it has been snuck by a venerable USA tradition of openness/privacy. The story broke years after Bush had already hamstrung the freedom of Info Act and Cheney had stonewalled on the energy task force inquiry, et cetera et cetera.

I will easily confess my vulnerability to bias, including confirmation bias. One reason I hang here is to have mine challenged. What has been presented on this thread regarding that has, so far, been like a squirt gun fired at 40 yards. When the wind is *just* right, I might feel a wee tingle.

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kenmeer livermaile
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BTW, I see littler truth in "Suddenly we can't fail in Iraq, not when we've come so far. [Roll Eyes]" The steady direction of reports from Washington AND Baghdad is getting our troops out sooner than later.

After the Baker Study was followed by the troops surge, it was very clear there would be no quick and easy withdrawal from Iraq. Bush just drove our dick in deeper and deeper.

My oldest son has become a plumber. Get that rooter that far down a serer line, it takes awhile to pull it out, even if at the end the toilet still barely flushes and the news is that the line has to be dug up and entirely replaced.

Since we already dug it up and entirely replaced things, it seems time to pull that rooter out. But it isn't just a switch you can turn off, is it?

An 18-month withdrawal timeline tending, if anything, to grow shorter than longer, seems a responsible withdrawal. That's an entire year and a half, longer than many wars.

Now, Afghanistan, that's a different story.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Now that there has been a new name painted on the door, there is suddenly a lot of serious reflection, particularly as Obama puts HIS name on X and Y...and even some pundits thinking hard about Z.
FWIW, there was quite a lot of serious reflection when Bush did it, too. Do you think we arrived at our positions without considering them?

IIRC, every Obama supporter on the site expressed disappointment about his position on this topic back when he first revealed what that position was. How exactly is that inconsistent?

We know he's not going to be the Perfect Leader. But I, at least, believe he's going to be considerably more thoughtful and effective than our previous one.

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flydye45
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
FWIW, there was quite a lot of serious reflection when Bush did it, too. Do you think we arrived at our positions without considering them?

IIRC, every Obama supporter on the site expressed disappointment about his position on this topic back when he first revealed what that position was. How exactly is that inconsistent?

We know he's not going to be the Perfect Leader. But I, at least, believe he's going to be considerably more thoughtful and effective than our previous one.

With some, even many, yes I do.

The change in volume, hysteria and ratio of refrain would reveal inconsistancy. To be consistant, constant railings about how President Obama uses the Bill of Rights to clean out "ol brown eye" would show an equal sense of outrage. Bush was accused of it, and Obama, pending any major change, will probably not be. Because there is that "serious reflection" meme which was NEVER applied to Bush. And let me stipulate that I don't think Bush did everything correctly, and occasionally overreached. Was it due to a bald power grab, as has been the meme, or a determination to keep people (OUR people) safe? There is that cultural divide again. Suddenly the ground has shifted...

Which goes to show your meme of "my guy is thoughtful" and the old guy just pulled things out of his a$$ even when "my guy" is doing things with little discernable difference...at least thus far. I have noted the number of apologetics issued on the part of the media regarding "maybe we should let this harsh interrogation stuff [suddenly it isn't torture any more] be used...but only in very extreme cases." Is it because "the thoughtful one" is suddenly in charge that suddenly the benefit can be offered to the doubt? I think so.

[ January 28, 2009, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

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Everard
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"Which goes to show your meme of "my guy is thoughtful" and the old guy just pulled things out of his a$$ even when "my guy" is doing things with little discernable difference...at least thus far"

There's quite a lot of difference so far in a large number of areas. The one place there ISN'T a discnerable difference yet is in this one court case. And right now, whats at issue is NOT whether or not the president has the right to eavesdrop on americans without a warrant. If Obama defends that, then we can start talking about hypocrisy if leftists aren't saying its awful.

But right now, thats not whats going on. Obama filed a stay pending a decision on an appeal that was filed by the bush administration.

A thing to note, though:
If you think 90% of what one guy does is bad, and 10% of what the other guy does is bad, you're probably more likely to over look the 10% as "well, he can't be perfect," then you'll over look the 90% thats bad.

Another thing to note:
DU was completely in flames about this.

[ January 28, 2009, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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