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Author Topic: It's getting more Orwellian by the day
Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by OpsanusTau:
quote:
Since I have never had a pure breed, I would say a general comment.
I haven't either, and sometimes I really get going about the health and behavior problems purebred dogs are likely to have. I'll refrain from that right now.

(surrounded by three adorable mutts)

But Portuguese Water Dogs are really, in my experience, very nice dogs.

I've had purebreeds and I've had mixes. The chief advantage of a purebreed is if you need an animal for a specific purpose you know what you're getting. The smartest, prettiest dog I had was a mix, but so was the dumbest, ugliest. [Smile]
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DonaldD
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Ornery, did you make up out of whole cloth the bit about Obama promising a shelter dog during the campaign, or are you just reading the right-wing blogs again? [Smile]

Seriously, do show where he made that promise. If you accuse someone of lying, it's good to actually know what you are talking about. Because what we know did happen was that, as president elect, he mentioned the isues involved with getting a presidential dog. From 'People' magazine (yep, we read 'em all)
quote:
"two criteria that have to be reconciled."

One is that elder daughter Malia, 10, "is allergic, so it has to be hypoallergenic." The other is that "our preference would be to get a shelter dog," which would point to the possiblity of a mixed breed, or, as Obama said, "a mutt, like me."


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0rnery
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Right-wing blogs?

  • PETA's Response to Obama Puppy ...although the Obamas had publicly expressed their intention to adopt a dog from an animal shelter or rescue group...
  • I Blame Obama for Dog Deaths President Obama pledged to adopt a dog from a shelter. He agreed to be featured in A Rare Breed of Love, a book about Baby, a puppy mill survivor...
  • Obama Disappoints Animals, Props Up Breeders ...There were even several statements from Obama and family indicating they would indeed adopt a rescue dog...
  • Obamas to adopt a rescue dog, Michelle Obama announces Michelle Obama told Entertainment Tonight recently that the family would adopt a rescue dog after the election was over. Michelle and her Democratic presidential candidate husband, Barack, made the promise to their two pre-teen daughters...
  • Obama Goes Back on Promise to Adopt a Crossbreed Shelter Dog The US president has kept his pledge to his family to get them a dog once installed in the White House but he has reneged on his promise to adopt a shelter dog AND his claim that he would be taking on a ‘mutt’ (crossbreed)...
  • Obama and the First Dog At his first press conference, Obama said “Our preference is to get a shelter dog, but most shelter dogs are mutts like me.” reffering to the fact that his daughter is allergic to dogs and he would be getting her a ‘hypoallergenic breed’.

Hypoallergenic Breeds:

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Viking_Longship
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If Obama had adopted a mixed breed without knowing it was hypo allergenic you'd be accusing him of disregarding his daughter's health to make political hay and talking about how it showed his poor character.

If he went down to the local humane society there he'd be looking at an overwhelming number of pit-bull mixes. I can only imagine what you'd do with that.

I don't see why choosing a Portugese Water Dog is worse than choosing a Poodle or a Schnauzer.


The problem isn't the dog Ornery, it's you. You want to criticize Obama? Fine, go after something real, problems with the healh care plan, his idea that he somehow is supposed to maintain a running comentary on every single issue in America, but his dog's elitist and the surgeon general's fat so we're living in 1984 (ah Dogs, sorry Animal Farm)? Give me a break.

[ July 25, 2009, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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0rnery
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He campaigns on one thing, then does another. Transparency? Bipartisanship? Guantánamo? Taxing middle-class? Pork Barrel Projects? No-lobbyist?

Now, when he says, "...It's going to be paid for. It is not going to add to the deficit. It will, in fact, control the deficit over the long term...." What are we to believe?

The trite matter of a getting a "hypoallergenic" shelter dog, could have been easily satisfied by using any of the aforementioned rescue organizations.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Matthew 16 “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, 17 and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ 18 “For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19 “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds. (NASV)”
Are you capable of looking at Obama and seeing anything but fault?

Every president, including the last one has to modify some positions once he has the full information at hand.

Ok now if he had used one of the afore mentioned rescues he still would be getting a purebred dog, possibly with papers. Dog rescues put the dogs in foster care. Bo, I understood, was part of a rescue org, but his foster family was also his breeder. I fail to see the cause of your moral outrage here. The dag was, after all, for his daughters, not you, he said they'd prefer to get a rescue or a shelter dog. That's stating a preference not signing a contract in blood.

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TommySama
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Obama only gets the purest of puppies to eat.

BTW, I have no idea how this thread started talking about Obama not actually getting a shelter puppy, even though he said he was thinking about it.

[ July 25, 2009, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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0rnery
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It follows the Seinfeldian script. However, it seems the reality is even too absurd for the Seinfeld formula.

It's par that this thread would also digress to the structure of a Seinfeld episode. Utter ridiculousness sprinkled liberally throughout...

Are you capable of looking at Obama and seeing anything but fault?

I like the guy! His story is even more heartening than Sotomayor's, but I've hated his radical left culture since before he even came on the scene. He campaigns with ludicrous promises to sway swing voters, then I get to pay for the results.

[ July 25, 2009, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: 0rnery ]

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hobsen
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Ornery, you provide too many links and screen them too carelessly. What is needed to prove your point is a contemporary account of an Obama speech by someone who was there which quotes him exactly as saying he would adopt a shelter dog. Or a similar account of a similar statement by Michelle Obama, although that would be less convincing because it seems to have been Obama himself who was planning to acquire the animal. Readers of this site have otherwise encountered too many news reports which quote Obama or others inaccurately from memory, or which provide only a misleading excerpt from some such speech. The skepticism is not toward you in particular, as no one here should expect you to mislead, but to a reliance on secondary and perhaps deliberately misleading sources.
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0rnery
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The point is, not even Seinfeld could have concocted this White House episode, from the VP right on down to the dog.
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kenmeer livermaile
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O mod: plug the troll-holes, eh? It's getting so rank here one can scarcely lurk.
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kenmeer livermaile
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This will sound like playing the race card, but it's actually just a technical comparison:

a) "I like the guy!"

b) Some of my best friends are...

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DonaldD
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Ornery, only one of your links comes close (your last one) but that came after the election, and if you actually read what he said, you'll see that he made no promise. After the election does not show he 'campaigned' on it.

Just show us a quote, from the campaign, where Obama promises to get a shelter dog. It shouldn't be hard. There's this thing called the internet that you can use nowadays.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by 0rnery:
It follows the Seinfeldian script. However, it seems the reality is even too absurd for the Seinfeld formula.

It's par that this thread would also digress to the structure of a Seinfeld episode. Utter ridiculousness sprinkled liberally throughout...

Are you capable of looking at Obama and seeing anything but fault?

I like the guy! His story is even more heartening than Sotomayor's, but I've hated his radical left culture since before he even came on the scene. He campaigns with ludicrous promises to sway swing voters, then I get to pay for the results.

Hey guess what pal, I got to pay for, am still paying for, Bush policies I don't agree with. Life is tough little troll. You lost an election, things happen you don't like, tough dude. That's how democracy works. In two years you can try to send some more Ï am notaa career politician"career politicians to congress. In the mean time don't tell me you "like"Obama and then slander him or whine about "leftists".

Obama's "radical leftist" policies will still put us to the right of every goverment in the developed world. Merkel and Sarkozy preside over far more socialist states than we do and they're considered pretty hard right for Europe. In short, you're seeing a dachsund and crying wolf.

Or perhaps you'd like to come meet some of the Vanguard of Red Youth boys here and find out what a real Leftist looks like?

[ July 26, 2009, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
O mod: plug the troll-holes, eh? It's getting so rank here one can scarcely lurk.

KL

Ornery wants to be Cherrypoptart but lacks the charm, gravitas, and well grounded arguments. [Wink]

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hobsen
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Cherrypoptart is not a troll, and Ornery may be merely repeating what he has read on other sites.
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0rnery
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Who Is the Ornery American?
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DonaldD
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Just show us a quote, from the campaign, where Obama promises to get a shelter dog. It shouldn't be hard. There's this thing called the internet that you can use nowadays.

Hint - the campaign ended November 4, 2008.

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DonaldD
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BTW - from the link to 'Who is the Ornery American'
quote:
We don't like being spun. That doesn't mean we aren't sometimes fooled by the way reporters slant their stories, but when we find out how we've been manipulated, we get a little mad and we refuse to trust that writer, commentator, that magazine, that newspaper, that news network, or that politician again.
It sometimes happens that people get spun, like you were with Obama's 'promise' that he never made about shelter dogs (and didn't mention at all during the campaign). But you should be angry with those who spun you, not with those who point it out to you.
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Serotonin'sGone
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Alright this is just annoying. Yes Obama promised to adopt a shelter dog after the photo-op with the three-legged dog that inspired some crap book or another (the dog, not the photo-op). I recall seeing it on the cover of several magazines -- during the last weeks of the campaign (I clearly remember this -- I even stopped to read the article while waiting in an interminable checkout queue). I believe we only have the author's word that he actually promised -- but he did stand for the photo-shoot, and it made for great publicity at the time.

dog magazine link

Seriously, a simple google reveals the whole thing on this. Is it a big deal that he waffled on it? Probably not -- I'm sure the man had his reasons.

That said, the more I see about Obama, the more I begin to think the man has never had an original thought in his life. He just reacts. He's like bubba on crack -- a hyper-needy, "I feel your pain," we are the blather we've been waiting for empty suit. He's allowed congress to take charge on every issue so far. Admittedly, that's kind of the way I'd like to see the nation run -- but it's hardly what I expected from the one.

My other theory on Obama is that he is the picked on nerd made good. Suddenly, all the cool kids just love him, and he can't get enough of it. Now that his popularity is falling he's liable to have a mental breakdown trying to get it back.

More theories on Obama -- for some reason we Americans expect our presidents to walk on water and **** gold. We even have that kind of expectation of helpless incompetents like the shrub. Then we get someone who can talk coherently and act intelligent, like Obama, and the expectations just soar. He's destined to fail miserably, because at this point he's promised to cure cancer, stop global warming and bring peace in our time -- and people seem to expect that he's going to do it. I know that all presidential canidates promise the impossible, but Obama has promised more impossibles (in a bad time) than any other president.

[ July 26, 2009, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Serotonin'sGone ]

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hobsen
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Thanks for the link, Serotonin'sGone. For a report of Kohl's reaction:
quote:
Dr. Jana Kohl, an animal-rights activist who featured President Obama in a book promoting pet adoption, predicted a run would happen — especially with the president’s decision to opt out of his campaign promise to get a dog from a shelter and go the breeder route instead.

“This will fuel the breeding industry, which will fuel the puppy mill industry, which will increase homeless dogs at shelters, and increase the numbers of dogs euthanized every year,” she said.

Kohl has since said she felt betrayed by the president’s decision not to adopt.

Obama accepted a Portuguese Water Dog named Bo from Senator Ted Kennedy. Bo originally came from a Texas-based breeder.

This reaction by Kohl seems to me unreasonable, and suggests she did not know the circumstances. As most people know, Senator Kennedy has brain cancer and understandably could find it difficult to care for a dog. So he passed his dog on to the Obamas. Does Kohl propose he should have shot his dog instead? And Obama did not get Bo from a breeder, but from a friend, at least according to this account.

Otherwise people who dislike Obama or Sonia Sotomayor or Dick Cheney are free to do so.

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G2
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Robert Gibbs today:
quote:
"I will continue to say what I've said before. You hear in this debate, you hear analogies, you hear references to, you see pictures about and depictions of individuals that are truly stunning, and you hear it all the time. People -- imagine five years ago somebody comparing health care reform to 9/11. Imagine just a few years ago had somebody walked around with images of Hitler.

Hopefully we can get back to a discussion about the issues that are important in this country that we can do so without being personally disagreeable and set up comparisons to things that were so insidious in our history that anybody in any profession or walk of life would be well advised to compare nothing to those atrocities."

Why just imagine it Gibbs!
You must be ****ing kidding me. Maybe Gibbs was in a coma for the last 8 years or so?

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Wayward Son
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That first link certainly puts to rest any notion that the Democrats were any better than the Republicans when Bush was in the White House--and were probably worse.

And I think we can all agree that such comparisons, whether it is about Bush or Obama, are over-the-top and unworthy of respect. Grayson and Bachmann both should be ashamed of themselves and just shut up and tone their stupid rhetoric down. Only the radical bases find any satisfaction from such behavior.

Let us all criticize such behavior, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. [Mad]

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TommySama
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Wayward, You know who else wanted to silence free speech? Hitler. Get your holocaust desires off my freedoms!
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Wayward Son
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Tommy: [Razz]
[Smile]

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velcro
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The GOP has admitted they want to shut down health care reform for political reasons, knowing that the system is horribly broken, and that their proposals will do nothing to fix it. One guy goes over the top to point out the obstructionism. Shame on him.

On the other hand, you have dozens, if not hundreds of people attacking the very people who are trying to help. You may not agree with their ideas or methods, but they are trying to fix a problem. Calling them Hitler, making up death-panel lies from whole cloth, calling people liars when they are pointing out your verifiable lies , these are a thousand times more shameful.

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
That first link certainly puts to rest any notion that the Democrats were any better than the Republicans when Bush was in the White House--and were probably worse.

The standard is not whether there are crazies in both parties, it's the behavior of the elected officials, particularly those in Congress and the White House. Republican Congressmen and Senators have embraced their ugly crazies to a degree far beyond that done by the Democrats. In the Orwellian political climate we're in where inconvenient words are redefined*, I suspect I will not get concurrence with that statement, but we can agree to chastise everyone who uses Hitler-references for un-Hitler-like behavior.

* How can anyone even talk about Orwellian things without mentioning the pathetic and tragic redefinition of the word "torture" promoted by conservatives, Republicans and the New York Times to dodge morally responsibility for evil actions performed by the United States of America. The very fact that the actions we have committed are a topic of political debate shows that there is a deep sickness in American society, and that sickness does not come equally from both sides of the partisan divide. Responsibility for those actions falls upon the Bush Administration, the Republican Party, and from every American citizen who voted for George Bush in 2004 after there was clear evidence that we were torturing prisoners. And those who torture the language to dodge that responsibility are making George Orwell roll over in his grave.

edited because it accidentally got sent missing half of a paragraph

[ November 06, 2009, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
That first link certainly puts to rest any notion that the Democrats were any better than the Republicans when Bush was in the White House--and were probably worse.

And I think we can all agree that such comparisons, whether it is about Bush or Obama, are over-the-top and unworthy of respect. Grayson and Bachmann both should be ashamed of themselves and just shut up and tone their stupid rhetoric down. Only the radical bases find any satisfaction from such behavior.

Let us all criticize such behavior, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. [Mad]

That sounds like a good idea but that particular genie is out of the bag (heh, malapropisms). After 8 years of this being acceptable, encouraged even, in pop culture and the media, the game is on and it's too late to complain about it now. The left should have condemned these things then but didn't, now it's the right's turn at bat. That don't make it the right thing to do but it's what's going to happen.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
quote:
That first link certainly puts to rest any notion that the Democrats were any better than the Republicans when Bush was in the White House--and were probably worse.

The standard is not whether there are crazies in both parties, it's the behavior of the elected officials, particularly those in Congress and the White House. Republican Congressmen and Senators have embraced their ugly crazies to a degree far beyond that done by the Democrats.
You must have been in a media blackout this summer.
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Greg Davidson
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quote:
After 8 years of this being acceptable, encouraged even, in pop culture and the media, the game is on and it's too late to complain about it now. The left should have condemned these things then but didn't, now it's the right's turn at bat. That don't make it the right thing to do but it's what's going to happen.
G2, no one should be helped morally accountable for things that they don't control. But people should be held morally accountable for things they endorse or reject, particularly on a forum devoted to ideas, and where the entirety of our presence is words and the ideas that they represent.

In your words above, you appear to have agreed that these partisan comparisons with Hitler are wrong. Stick with that position and you will earn my respect on this point, both for decency and intellectual integrity. But if you fall back to tacitly or specifically endorsing the behavior of national political officials who make such comparisons, you will demonstrate that you believe it is acceptable in your own behavior to take morally wrong positions in an attempt to score partisan points.

Of course, you don't have to care a whit about my perceptions of you.

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
You must have been in a media blackout this summer
By media blackout, what Fox News stories are you referring to?
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G2
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Speaking of Orwellian, here's today's news:
quote:
nitial claims for jobless benefits rose by 12,000 to a seasonally adjusted 472,000, the Labor Department said Thursday. It was the highest level in a month.

First-time jobless claims have hovered near 450,000 since the beginning of the year after falling steadily in the second half of 2009. That has raised concerns that hiring is lackluster and could slow the recovery.

Still, the four-week average for unemployment claims, which smooths volatility, dipped slightly to 463,500. That's down by 3,750 from the start of January.

and
quote:
More than 90 U.S. banks and thrifts missed making a May 17 payment to the U.S. government under its main bank bailout program, signaling a rising number of lenders are struggling to meet their obligations.
and
quote:
The Commerce Department reported Wednesday that overall housing starts fell 10 percent from April, while building permits were down 5.9 percent.
Here's the Whitehouse official position:
quote:
David Axelrod said: Democrats chose to act by tackling the crisis head-on. Just over a year later, the Recovery Act is putting millions of Americans to work and helping the economy grow again.
and
quote:
OBAMA, BIDEN DECLARE “RECOVERY SUMMER”: Vice President Biden today will kick off “Recovery Summer,” a six-week-long push designed to highlight the jobs accompanying a surge in stimulus-funded projects to improve highways, parks, drinking water and other public works.
It truly does not get more Orwellian than that. This is approaching North Korea/Kim Jong-il levels.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
This is approaching North Korea/Kim Jong-il levels.
I would say that it's still got a ways to go before it reaches Bushian levels, myself, but I suppose to each his own. [Smile]
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JoshCrow
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Housing starts are down? There's a jobs push?

Time to start sleeping with my shotgun beside the bed.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
This is approaching North Korea/Kim Jong-il levels.
I would say that it's still got a ways to go before it reaches Bushian levels, myself, but I suppose to each his own. [Smile]
B-B-B-B-BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSHH!!!! Non-sequitur. [Roll Eyes] [LOL]


quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Housing starts are down? There's a jobs push?

Time to start sleeping with my shotgun beside the bed.

Why? Obviously everything is going great! Why would you sleep in fear when the Dear Leader assures you of the success of his economic policies? Thing are great, Barry says so and you *will* believe.

[ June 17, 2010, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
B-B-B-B-BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSHH!!!! Non-sequitur.
Is it really? By that logic, "Orwellian" is a non-sequitur, since Orwell is actually so over as to be dead.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:

quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Housing starts are down? There's a jobs push?

Time to start sleeping with my shotgun beside the bed.

Why? Obviously everything is going great! Why would you sleep in fear when the Dear Leader assures you of the success of his economic policies? Thing are great, Barry says so and you *will* believe.
You post didn't even have anything to do with Orwell, except perhaps according to some weird logic like "Orwell's vision is bad, and the economy is bad - therefore, the economy is Orwellian". It's not even reasoned, it's just you raising your old threads from the dead.
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Chael
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JoshCrow, a key feature of Orwell's 1984 was the government controlling the dissemination of news and stating outright falsehoods as if they were truths. 'Pravda' and all that. [Smile]

It took me a moment to figure out too, though. Normally when people say 'Orwellian,' I think 'surveillance of the citizenry.' But of course, it's not just that; it's also telling them (with the voice of authority) what to think.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
You post didn't even have anything to do with Orwell, except perhaps according to some weird logic like "Orwell's vision is bad, and the economy is bad - therefore, the economy is Orwellian". It's not even reasoned, it's just you raising your old threads from the dead.

My post was an example of doublethink ("The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.") and outright maniuplation of reality:
quote:
Though Nineteen Eighty-Four is most famous for the Party's pervasive surveillance of everyday life, reality control means that the population of Oceania—all of it, including the ruling élite—could be controlled and manipulated merely through the alteration of everyday thought and language.
quote:
In the case of workers at the Records Department in the Ministry of Truth, doublethink means being able to falsify public records, and then believe in the new history that they, themselves, had just written.
What is happening in reality is that the economy is taking a dump and jobless claims are rising while simultaneously the state is telling us that millions of Americans have gone back to work and that there has actually been a surge in job growth. We are expected to believe that increasing jobless claims and millions going back to work can happen simultaneously - doublethink. This is a quintessential Orwellian tactic.
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JoshCrow
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G2, your post still doesn't make sense. An Orwellian remark would be factually inaccurate, like "the economy is in great shape".

Axelrod stated just what he stated - the Recovery Act created jobs and helped the economy. He did not state that the economy is peachy, or even that there has been a surge in overall job growth. And the other quote isn't even a statement of fact, it's a statement of intent.

[ June 17, 2010, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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