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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » We have met the enemy and he is us. (Page 3)

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Author Topic: We have met the enemy and he is us.
DaveS
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quote:
Daruma's nutty only in the sense that every single bloke I've come to know via Ornery is not all there.

Why yes, that includes you too, DaveS.

But you wear it with impeccable dignity, like a jester modeling crotchless tuxedos for evening church attire.

I have a powerful feeling that you may have actually complimented me, but not enough power to be sure.
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Everard
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I apologize.
Daruma says a lot of things that don't hold up under close, or often even distant, scrutiny. That doesn't mean he's clinically insane.

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KnightEnder
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Tom,

If not championing then continuing to point out Bush's supposed successes while bashing Obama.

Close enough.

KE

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IrishTD
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quote:
He cut taxes to spur investment, and now we have a recession.
Worked (somewhat) during the recession that these tax cuts were targeted at.

quote:
. He fought against business and financial regulation, and we are in a financial meltdown.
Plenty of contributions from Congress on this one. Although Sarbanes-Oxley did occur on Bush's watch.

quote:
He argued for military toughness, but we have been mired in a two very expensive wars in remote backward countries, one mountainous, the other desert, for over 6 years.
B poorly follows A. (I will grant you correctness points).

quote:
He enacted education reform, and teachers and school districts around the country are screaming for major changes to his programs.
Partly written by Teddy Kennedy, more fed control (boo hiss, hiss boo) of schools.

quote:
. He sought to privatize Social Security, which would have bankrupted anybody nearing retirement if they have been able to take him up on what he proposed.
IIRC, wouldn't have affected anyone over 50 or 55.

quote:
. He backtracked on Kyoto and denied the importance of global warming, delaying major government action by nearly a decade.
You mean the treaty that was rejected in principle 90-something to 0 by the Senate (edited) under Clinton? (IIRC, he didn't even submit it for consideration).

quote:
. He politicized the DOJ by putting a hapless crony in charge and letting the standard of independent legal excellence be encroached on by religious and partisan allegiance.
No comment -- never really paid attention.

quote:
. He trumpeted the wisdom of his economic policies, and now we have the largest national debt in human history by any measure.
Economy wasn't too bad for a few years there. Did spend way the hell too much though.

quote:
. Unemployment is up, health care is unmanaged and either too expensive or unavailable to more Americans than ever before, our manufacturing base has withered, we have lost our position as the beacon of freedom in the world.
Unemployment numbers were generally low during his tenure, no one has fixed health care (and I don't expect Obama to have any luck with it), manufacturing has been going away for years, and folks are still dying to come here.

Let's tell the story like it really is: the folks in DC like having power over everything, and until we, the voters, decide to take it away from them, they will continue to expand their power. Doesn't matter which party is in power and which branch it is -- gov't will continue to expand until we say no mas.

[ April 22, 2009, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: IrishTD ]

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stayne
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Dave, I am unclear how what you say bears on what Kennedy said. It seems big list of 'why I don't think Bush was a good president'. The points you raise all seem to be points that have been argued vociferously by many. You have certain opinions on things, and may well be correct, but vast numbers of people disagree with you, enough for Bush to have won re-election.

There are plenty of conservatives who would levy similar charges against the Clinton administration, and they are just as inflammatory and useless. The ONLY thing Clinton did that was actually criminal was deliberately lying to a court while under oath, for which he was punished. Everything else is partisan bickering and 'B-B-B-Black helicopters!' kookery.

It's not really my intent to engage on what I see as partisan bickering, but I would be interested in what some would say about this article.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/07/iraq.uranium/

Personally, I think the Bush administration DID lie about WMD's, but not the lie that most believe.

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DaveS
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Irish, several of your responses aren't really rebuttals. I would be willing to go into greater detail, but I don't have time for an extended exploration right now.
quote:
Dave, I am unclear how what you say bears on what Kennedy said. It seems big list of 'why I don't think Bush was a good president'.
Stayne, it bears on what Kennedy said related to the war in Iraq, and I went into other things of similar mood. It's not partisan bickering, but my assessment of what transpired. Yours is different.
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stayne
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Dave, true enough. However, in keeping with the thread topic, my point is that if you and I can respect one another for having different views and assessments, our leaders should as well. I think we do ourselves and our country a disservice by tolerating that sort of thing. If nothing else, it diminishes the impact of a verifiable claim, and makes it more likely it will be dismissed as more of the same bickering. At worst, it turns American against American.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Worked (somewhat) during the recession that these tax cuts were targeted at."

Might have been wise to have just let them be. The uptick those tax cuts inspired ticked straight through to another -- and worse-- round of what Greenspan called irrational exuberance. Back in '02/'03, I hung with some financial types online. They were predicting the housing market crash long ago, and saw that it was being sustained by a continual lowering of fiscal integrity.

Without that housing market boom, the economy was stagnant and stank, coasting along on the slime leaking out its bottom.

"Plenty of contributions from Congress on this one. Although Sarbanes-Oxley did occur on Bush's watch."

Let me note that all of us here understand (I hope) that the POTUS isn't Congress. I'll abbreviate this to PIC.

"B poorly follows A. (I will grant you correctness points)."

Whatever? Or: Mission Accomplished?

"Partly written by Teddy Kennedy, more fed control (boo hiss, hiss boo) of schools."

PIC. Also, which part?

"IIRC, wouldn't have affected anyone over 50 or 55."

When SSI was introduced, most people 55 were dead or dying.

That aside, I'm 53, my wife is 48, and her ten years' 401K (personal responsibility for Golden Years) tanked badly. I suspect this will affect her when she's over 50 or 55.

"You mean the treaty that was rejected in principle 90-something to 0 by the Senate (edited) under Clinton? (IIRC, he didn't even submit it for consideration)."

Add CAB to the acronym file: Clinton Ain't Bush; he's been out of office for 17 years, and who gives a fig what he did back then?

"No comment -- never really paid attention."

Apophases work better when invoked wittingly not unwittingly.

"Economy wasn't too bad for a few years there. Did spend way the hell too much though."

Aw, the economy wasn't too bad there for a couple of years. Life was tolerable until it got worse.

"Unemployment numbers were generally low during his tenure, no one has fixed health care (and I don't expect Obama to have any luck with it), manufacturing has been going away for years, and folks are still dying to come here."

Unemployment was higher than reported owing to Bush increasing the fudge factor in unemployment stats reporting; that no one has yet fixed health care doesn't enhance Bush's rep 4 months after he left office nor do your expectation of what Obama accomplishes in this regard in his remaining 40 months mean doodly-squit; and the fact that America is still a decent place to live is something that is true despite Dubya's 8 years and the imbecility that elected him (TWICE!!!) to that tenure.

"Let's tell the story like it really is: the folks in DC like having power over everything, and until we, the voters, decide to take it away from them, they will continue to expand their power. Doesn't matter which party is in power and which branch it is -- gov't will continue to expand until we say no mas."

You could've cut the dumb **** above out and stuck with this and had it all.

[ April 23, 2009, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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IrishTD
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quote:
You could've cut the dumb **** above out and stuck with this and had it all.
No duh. However, I wanted to be an arse because DaveS decided to do some partisan sniping and I'm showing it can go both directions.

For most of the points listed (either Dave's or mine), we (the collective board) could go back and forth on most of this crap all day and not come to a solution or a clear decree on who is at fault for each part. It's all going to revert to partisan bickering which is about all this forum is doing these days -- in turn, it's making it damn near unreadable.

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kenmeer livermaile
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good for you! i admire the spirit of your response.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Nonetheless, DaveS whupped you and it is you who interpret his remarks as partisan.

DaveS be above partisanism; has a long track record here of just that.

His tree leans in a certain direction, yes, but it merely listeth to the wind of reason.

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Daruma28
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Ken, thanks for a defense of myself, that was unnecessary, but I appreciate it nonetheless. I think our discourse here is a good example of agreeable disagreement. [Wink] Mahalo nui!

Ev - the fact that YOU consider me insane and "a troll..." what can I say: coming from you, I consider that a compliment of the highest degree.

**** you too. [LOL]

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Daruma28
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One more thing...I just have to say this - Everard somehow sees himself as some sort of standard bearer - a sentinel of the rules of how Ornery debate is supposed to be conducted.

He's a tattle tale, whiner that constantly tries to get everyone else to try to adhere to what HE thinks is the way this forum should be run...

...except he regularly violates the rules he is so quick to call out anyone else for violating.

Sometimes I may act a little trollish - I won't deny it...there are times where I will post something knowing exactly what kind of reaction it will get...but I'm ALWAYS ready to back up anything I write, and I will deal with honest counterpoints and rebuttals with the same honesty and intent in which they are given.

And if anyone wants to trade insults? I can play that game too...if I feel up to it and perceive that I'll get a little entertainment value from such an exchange.

Ya'all can call me anything you like...but I'll say one thing for sure: I'm not a whining hypocrite that does one thing, than cries when somebody else does the exact same.

In all my years here, I've never once hit the report button to OM or called for anyone to be banned or censored because someone disagreed with me, insulted me, or broke an Ornery rule like questioning my motivation.

We all know Ev, that you certainly cannot say the same.

[ April 23, 2009, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
In all my years here, I've never once hit the report button to OM or called for anyone to be banned or censored because someone disagreed with me, insulted me, or broke an Ornery rule like questioning my motivation.
To be fair, I need to observe this:

There is nothing wrong with reporting someone to OM, or asking that the forum's rules be respected. You are not somehow "less" than Daruma -- or anyone else -- if you have done this, or if you are tempted to do this.

Daruma's real complaint is that -- from his point of view -- Ev asks that the rules be enforced (or brings up the rules, in general) only when it is convenient for him, but otherwise breaks them himself. I'm not going to assert one way or another whether I agree with Daruma on this; I just wanted to be clear that I disagree quite strongly with the implication that the decision to blow the whistle is somehow an abdication of personal responsibility.

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KnightEnder
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If anyone should be the standard bearer it should be me. Everybody knows that I never break the rules.

KE

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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
In all my years here, I've never once hit the report button to OM or called for anyone to be banned or censored because someone disagreed with me, insulted me, or broke an Ornery rule like questioning my motivation.
To be fair, I need to observe this:

There is nothing wrong with reporting someone to OM, or asking that the forum's rules be respected. You are not somehow "less" than Daruma -- or anyone else -- if you have done this, or if you are tempted to do this.

Daruma's real complaint is that -- from his point of view -- Ev asks that the rules be enforced (or brings up the rules, in general) only when it is convenient for him, but otherwise breaks them himself. I'm not going to assert one way or another whether I agree with Daruma on this; I just wanted to be clear that I disagree quite strongly with the implication that the decision to blow the whistle is somehow an abdication of personal responsibility.

Tom, I agree with you 100%...I never said it had anything to do with "personal responsibility" but rather with hypocrisy.

I'm only pointing this out because I for sure have been one to break the Ornery rules a multitude of times in the past...and I've had my own fair share of OM warnings as well.

I'm not going to excoriate Ev for hypocrisy, if I had done the same thing myself.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Well, I'll sum this squabble up for me thusly:

everyone here comes to raise some form of ruckus.

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Kuato
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damn straight and no apologies
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KnightEnder
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Can we really hold what Ev and Pete say to each other against them? It's not like they do that kind of thing to everybody.

KE

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Kuato
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and, like batman and joker, maybe they need each other; only in responding to each other can they feed their own favorite inward-fires

[ April 24, 2009, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Kuato ]

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Lina Inverse
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Does that mean we also have a Robin and a Batgirl and a Harley Quinn? 'Cause I kind of want to be Harley [Big Grin]
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Wayward Son
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Only if you send us a picture of you in a Harley Quinn outfit, Lina. [Big Grin]
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KnightEnder
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Great Kuato, now they are going to fight over who is Batman and who is the Joker. (Though after Heath Ledger's performance they may both want to be the Joker. [Smile] ) You don't have a Batgirl outfit do you munga? [Wink]

KE

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Kuato
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Kuatobat- ready to fight crime!
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
This country WAS divided once. Had a Mason-Dixon line. Anyone want to call this nation divided now better have something comparable to show. Like stacks of corpses, brother fighting brother, son fighting father...

There is plenty to learn and share here at ornery of a serious mein, but for me the main draw is all the hilariously happy Hollywood horse**** it provides.

Damnit, Ken, why can't you always be that lucid? Nicely said.
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BobDylanThomas
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
When I see N carolina and W virginia up in arms I'll be worried. Them folks kick Texas ass any day.

GTFO We've got counties that could kick the **** out of those two states. [Smile]

KE

[ November 08, 2009, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: BobDylanThomas ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Kiss my tarheels, you wanna secede half-a-Mexican. Texas is only so big because of all that hot air. [Razz]
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