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Author Topic: Obama Wins! Again! This time at Notre Dame!
KnightEnder
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While 54% of Catholics voted for President Obama a lot of people, not necessarily Notre Dame students or alumni, were upset at Notre Dame for asking President Obama to give the commencement speech at this year graduation.

However, hardly any of the students joined the relatively few people outside the graduation protesting President Obama's presence.

In fact, the students at the graduation were so supportive of President Obama when some nutcase old man protester started heckling the president the students drowned him out by chanting "We are ND!"

He hit all the right notes saying we should be working toward lowering the number of women seeking abortions by lowering the number of women that get pregnant on accident by teaching birth control and responsibility, and make it easier for children to be adopted, etc. etc.

The bottom line was he was really well received by the president of Notre Dame, who said "President Obama is not the kind of man that refuses to talk to people with whom he disagrees." (Wonder what president would do that? [Smile] ), and MOST importantly the students! The old days of the old guy protester and his ilk is coming to an end. The younger generation love and support President Obama. And they are the kind of young people that are willing to compromise and work towards a day when abortions are no longer necessary or needed. The next generation is not as set in their ways as the older generation. And in this case we are talking about the students at Notre Dame the biggest Catholic college in the country. So you can imagine how the students at normal colleges feel.

It almost makes you feel sorry for the dinosaurs. Almost, until you remember how they have never felt, let alone expressed, anything approaching pity or sympathy towards anybody that ever disagreed with them.

Thank goodness President Obama is young enough to ride the wave of change that the next generation is ushering in.

KE

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TommySama
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I was going to start a thread about this to show how useless religion is for "bringing people together" considering how most of the Catholic bishops have responded to this. But I figured there were enough anti-religious threads at the moment [Wink] .
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
I was going to start a thread about this to show how useless religion is for "bringing people together" considering how most of the Catholic bishops have responded to this. But I figured there were enough anti-religious threads at the moment [Wink] .

I say there's not enough! Tommy, it's your duty to derail this thread into a discussion about the availability of abortion for gay divorcees!
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Michelle
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I heard the Obama-head flip-flops are a huge sale on campuses across America. [Roll Eyes]
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Viking_Longship
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If conservative catholics treated proponents of the death penalty in the same manner I would respect them more. One garment, seamless.
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DonaldD
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Depends what you mean by "in the same manner".

Catholics in general and most especially devout catholics are vehemently anti-death penalty.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
He hit all the right notes saying we should be working toward lowering the number of women seeking abortions by lowering the number of women that get pregnant on accident by teaching birth control and responsibility, and make it easier for children to be adopted, etc. etc.

The rest we'll just dump in the dirty linen closet to bleed out. Everybody wins under the Obama plan! Well, except for infants but they're not real people so it's all good.

[ May 18, 2009, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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KnightEnder
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"Infants"...must...not...allow...G2...to...derail thread. Ah, **** it. Apparently you don't know the meaning of the word "infant".

KE

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KnightEnder
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quote:
While the vast majority of U.S. Catholics support capital punishment....
quote:
In 1966, less than half of the U.S. population approved of the death penalty. Now polls indicate that about 75 percent approve.
quote:
In their 1980 statement, the bishops begin by noting that punishment, "since it involves the deliberate infliction of evil on another," must be justifiable. They acknowledge that the Christian tradition has for a long time recognized a government's right to protect its citizens by using the death penalty in some serious situations.
All that from Googling Catholic and death penalty. The last two from a Catholic site arguing against the death penalty.

The general consensus is that while the Church condemns the death penalty many, if not most, of its US congregation is in favor of it.

KE

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rightleft22
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“I was going to start a thread about this to show how useless religion is for "bringing people together"”

I find this statement odd.
Religion is extremely effective at binding people together within a shared belief/rule system. It is one of the prime definitions of Religion.

The statement seems to imply that ‘Religion’ is expected to bring ALL people together when the definition of religion itself suggests that religion exclude.

Religion is the delineation and separation of opposites of which judgment is required that this is better then that. This road not that road, our way not that way….. In doing so religion creates a group identity, and a group to be a group excludes.

IMO it is a mistake to assume that the purpose of religion is to bring all people together. It may be the purpose of God to which all things are one, but belief in God is not the same as belief in religion. It is when religion equates it self as God that the problems start.

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hobsen
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Abortion opponents used this event to get publicity for their cause, and some news accounts exaggerated its significance enormously. First, with more than 400 active and retired Roman Catholic bishops in the United States, it is hardly surprising 74 of them were willing to offer criticisms. But the National Conference of Catholic Bishops said nothing officially, so far as I have heard. If they had asked Notre Dame to withdraw the invitation or not to award the honorary doctorate, they would have been excoriated by defenders of Notre Dame's academic freedom, by millions of Americans offended by a pointed insult to the President of the United States, and by millions of others accusing them of pandering to Catholic racists in the Midwest. That part of the country has a long tradition in heavily Catholic neighborhoods of trying to keep out black residents, and it is nothing to which the bishops particularly want to draw attention. So they probably did well to keep silent.

Otherwise the protests themselves made a legitimate news story, so long as their significance was not exaggerated. In fact the invitation to Obama was approved by about 60% of U.S. Catholics, and by more than 80% of the students and faculty of Notre Dame. And even on the issue of abortion itself, more than half of U.S. Catholics believe that should be legal in most or all cases, although I do not know whether that is because they think the Vatican arguments against it are worthless, or because they do not feel their minority viewpoint should be imposed on the majority of other Americans. Since few if any countries in the world have laws agreeing entirely with the Vatican position, even if they have overwhelmingly Catholic populations, that would seem unreasonable to expect in a country like the United States in which Roman Catholics have never made up even a quarter of the population.

Anyway my wife was fuming about the invitation to Obama for the last ten days. Her sister Theresa felt differently, but she refused to discuss the issue in the interest of family harmony, so I do not know her reasoning. But since Theresa has been a Roman Catholic nun for the last fifty years, she would seem to be as entitled to have an opinion as anyone else in that denomination. Altogether there were in fact legions of critics, but theirs was decidedly a minority opinion.

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RickyB
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"Religion is extremely effective at binding people together within a shared belief/rule system. It is one of the prime definitions of Religion."

Yes, but only by alienating them from those not with the program.

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rightleft22
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I thought that's what I said?
To group is to exclude.

What I find odd is the need of those against ‘religion’ to point this out as if it were a discovery.

But then equally odd is the need of those who believe in ‘religion’ to see there religion as inclusive.

God may be inclusive as God transcends the opposites but religion is all about the opposites – ‘either or’ – and ‘either or’ thinking necessarily excludes.

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RickyB
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"What I find odd is the need of those against ‘religion’ to point this out as if it were a discovery."

Well, not all religion. Two of the three Abrahamic ones are pretty honest about this. It's Christianity that pretends to have my homey's all-inclusive spirit... [Smile]

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flydye45
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KE. You pull off the short skirt very well. The Nirvana pom poms look a bit unmanly, however.
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kmbboots
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What hobson said. And Viking. And you might want to include starting a war that the Vatican proclaimed unjust in with the death penalty. On just about everything except abortion and gay rights, the democratic platform and the President's position is closer to the Vatican's position (and even more in live with most American Catholics) than the Republican position.
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KnightEnder
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Dude,

I just watched Bring It On like 6, the one with Claire from Heroes and I am way regretting playing football instead of being a male cheerleader. While I'm getting my anatomy knocked off these guys got their hands all up underneath the cheerleaders skirts! [Mad] (I do have the legs for it. Thanks for noticing. [Smile] )

And Fly, just for you I called in to the Chris Baker show today and told him though I disagreed with most of what he said I agreed with him on not letting Obama take our guns. He said that I was a good American but the Commie pinko Left Liberal Elitist were giving my kind of Liberal a bad name. I told him he sounded just like my dad, and he said well then get me a Father's day present. So now I gotta do that. [Frown]

Edited to Add: As he was railing against Obama taking our guns I was turning onto Hwy 225 also called "Independence Highway" and beside the name is a picture of an arm in a buckskin fringed coat holding up a musket to symbolize Texas fighting for its independence. (This highway takes you to both the San Jacinto monument commemorating the Battle of San Jacinto and about ten miles West of there what we just called "Santa Anna's" when we were kids. It's where Santa Anna was captured, and where we used to meet to get drunk or fight with Milby high school losers on the weekends.)

KE

[ May 18, 2009, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Michelle
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"The general consensus is that while the Church condemns the death penalty many, if not most, of its US congregation is in favor of it."

That opinion must be from one of those new improved google information sites. [Roll Eyes]

Come on, KE. Use your head.

Any and every type of organized anything in this country survives by raises funds for the newest conscience raising fad.

The Catholic Church is no different.

The Catholic Church use to go after capital punishment with as much fury and attention that they go after the abortion issue. Research the late sixties and early seventies. (That's when I was a kid and my church use to hold all-night vigils for the inmates on death row.) Now-a-days, all-night vigils are held for the right to life movement.

The death penalty is no longer a hot topic.

There it is.

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KnightEnder
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For what, Michelle? And I tuned in in the middle of the show so I didn't hear what Obama' was actually proposing.

KE

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RickyB
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"The death penalty is no longer a hot topic."

Why not?

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Michelle
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"The death penalty is no longer a hot topic."

Why not?

I have no idea, Ricky. You could have strong feelings for or against capital punishment, but nationally, the issue is lukewarm. No coverage.
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KnightEnder
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Michelle,

That is the second time you have accused me of being less than able to think clearly. Frankly, you aren't qualified to make such accusations. And if you doubt what I've written you can 'google' catholic church and death penalty and you will see it is exactly as I said. I am neither stupid nor a liar, and if your defense is that the Catholic Church is a whore and that the leadership from the Pope on down don't even have the courage of their convictions but are playing to public sentiment for money and in a sad attempt at becoming relevant again, well IMO that is beside the point. The point is that many, bordering on most, American Catholics favor the death penalty. I'm sure being a 'real' Catholic you will argue that they aren't. That's what Christians usually do when faced with acts or opinions of their fellows that they don't agree with.

I still don't have those conspiracy theories you were hoping for but I will say the Catholic Church is a backward institution that is in decline. A misogynistic bunch of freaks (both the priests and nuns) practicing absurd unnatural beliefs that lead them to be pedophiles and treat women as if they are maids or breeding machines. As an organization it reeks and is the epitome of what is wrong with organized religion.

KE

[ May 18, 2009, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Michelle
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KE, first off, I'm not a practicing Catholic-I just spent my childhood in the Roman Catholic Church. I'm an atheist, who kind of likes the idea of a multiverse theory. Be careful KE, there could be a million of me out there somewhere. [Big Grin]

Second, I have no clue why a figure of speech like- 'Come on use your head' would have such an ill-affect on you. You are like losing your head, which is in the complete opposite direction then I was hoping to steer you. I was hoping you would look at this objectively. (See below)

The google comment, had more to do with my personal disdain with using google, of late. I can't seem to google any political topic without getting three pages of liberal-biased reports. I was being a smartass. I apologize for directing it at you. I actually found the bishop comment in the eighties interesting.

'This is Below'

We are a capitalist country, and when someone raises an issue, if it doesn't strike a heart-chord, it won't open the pocketbook.

You want to refer to the Catholic Church as a whore, fine. But so is every other organization that jumps on the bandwagon when the music is playing. Please, name me one group that does not exploit interest. Even the Sierra Club is fond of it's ambulance-chasing, lawyer's donations.

"A misogynistic bunch of freaks (both the priests and nuns) practicing absurd unnatural beliefs that lead them to be pedophiles and treat women as if they are maids or breeding machines. As an organization it reeks and is the epitome of what is wrong with organized religion."

Wow. I think that it's an assumption that men or women can't live without sex, made by people who cannot live without sex. A person who is asexual would be appropriate for clergy work, I think. What's the matter? Haven't we let the asexuals out of the closet yet?

As far as pedophiles go... The Church is very guilty of not protecting it's flock, but the pedophiles themselves get jobs within the church to be close to children, and because the system would hide them. Just like they get jobs in our schools and our recreation departments.

The amount of abuse is hard to ignore. It's sickening. I'm with you there. The Church covered up so much for so long, maybe it would be better if it all went away.

Shame, really. The church was always good to me, and I do have very fond memories of the church as well as deep respect for many of the priests and nuns I have known.

[ May 18, 2009, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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kmbboots
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KE, Here is an article that may shed some light on the subject.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp

Though the Church's position is reasonably clear, I think that the reason that abortion is a hotter ticket than the death penalty has something to do with the fact that it is emotionally easier for people to get worked up about protecting "babies" than it is to get worked up over protecting serial murderers.

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RickyB
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"I have no idea, Ricky. You could have strong feelings for or against capital punishment, but nationally, the issue is lukewarm. No coverage."

Aye, the question is WHY. Maybe because the RC church felt the need to follow the proddys' lead on abortion? After all, there's only so many resources available...

To be fair, the answer has to do with quite a few states putting moratoriums on the death penalty. Not rescinding it, just not signing any death warrants till various issues get investigated (such as do the lethal injections currently used reliably provide a painless death, otherwise it's eminently challenge-able under cruel and unusual). Texas is still killing folk, but I guess the RC isn't too popular down there, although maybe I'm wrong? Lotsa Latinos, after all.

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RickyB
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"Wow. I think that it's an assumption that men or women can't live without sex, made by people who cannot live without sex. A person who is asexual would be appropriate for clergy work, I think. What's the matter? Haven't we let the asexuals out of the closet yet?"

I think all of recorded history proves that can or can't, people WON'T do without sex. I don't think there are enough asexuals. And I think the entire point of celibacy is to overcome, not to be born without, but you could ask a guy with a white collar. A priest who never even felt sexual attraction would, I fear, make a very poor spiritual adviser indeed in many cases.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Depends what you mean by "in the same manner".

Catholics in general and most especially devout catholics are vehemently anti-death penalty.

If the Bishops are threatening politicians with ex-communication for breaking with the church on abortion I think politicians who break with the curch on other social justice issues the church has condemned should be held to the same standard. The death penalty is the most visable one. However let me amend that to say "some conservative Catholics". (and to be fair, Orthodox Christians are guilty of the same offenses at least amongst the laiety)
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Viking_Longship
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KE the Catholics also do vast amounts of charitable work in the world and with a pretty powerful foothold amongst outside the western world, it hardly seems to be in decline.
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KonerAtHome
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I have always felt the abortion was a personal choice. One that is not right for me, meaning that if my wife were to become pregnant and opt for an abortion it would be the end of our marriage. So from that perspective I like Obama's position on abortion. I liked his message in his speech. I just think that a college graduation ceremony is an inappropriate place for discussions about abortion. That is a day to talk about the future, the lives to come for the graduation class. Not a day to talk about abortion.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
I just think that a college graduation ceremony is an inappropriate place for discussions about abortion.
He may agree, but when there's a 800-pound gorrilla sitting next to you, it sometimes is worthwhile to mention it. [Smile]
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Michelle
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"I think all of recorded history proves that can or can't, people WON'T do without sex. I don't think there are enough asexuals. And I think the entire point of celibacy is to overcome, not to be born without, but you could ask a guy with a white collar. A priest who never even felt sexual attraction would, I fear, make a very poor spiritual adviser indeed in many cases. "

It's a stigma to be celibate, or to have no sex-drive. Our society is driven to 'fix' any lack of desire. Why would people openly talk about a lack of interest? They don't. There are no realistic numbers on asexuals, or people who just live an asexual existence.
Ricky, the point I'm trying to make is people DO go without sex all the time. The sex drive in human varies. Obviously, if someone has raging hormones, they probably wouldn't be cut our for a celibate life. It would be too much of a personal conflict of interest. Regardless, celibacy does not create pedophiles. That conclusion is hate speech on a chosen lifestyle.

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IrishTD
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Catholic teaching on issues regarding life (death penalty, abortion, etc.): From the Catechism

@Viking
Abortion is one of the few issues where one is immediately excommunicated from the church by their own actions when the action occurs (latae sententiae). Not sure how accurate the wiki reference is, but there is this article on latae sententiae. Article on excommunication is a bit better. My guess is that many of the social justice issues do not carry the risk of excommunication from the church (however, I'm not about to review the catechism in full to figure it out).

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
I just think that a college graduation ceremony is an inappropriate place for discussions about abortion.
He may agree, but when there's a 800-pound gorrilla sitting next to you, it sometimes is worthwhile to mention it. [Smile]
What does Rush Limbaugh have to do with it?

KE

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KnightEnder
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So, Michelle if it's not the celibacy that is driving all these priests to molest little boys are you saying that whatever drives someone to be a priest also drives them to be a pedophile? Either way, whether this unnatural state the CC imposes on priests is the cause or the draw it is evidence of wrongness of the institution.

And Michelle, glad to hear you weren't calling me stupid, but I admit I have a hard time being objective about an organization that protects pedophiles, lies about contraceptives, bashes gays, hoards money while half the world starves and treats women like second class citizens. Just a character flaw of mine I guess.

KE

[ May 19, 2009, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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KnightEnder
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VL,

It is in America. The number of members and the number of schools have both been in decline. Of course that could be because of the pedophile priests. And I didn't just pull that out of my ass. I've read it in several different places. Just a quick Google of Catholic Church and Decline gave me this:

quote:
Statistical decline of the Catholic Church since Vatican IINov 22, 2008 ... Priests. After skyrocketing from about 27000 in 1930 to 58000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45000 in 2002.
www.tldm.org/news6/statistics.htm - 43k - Cached - Similar pages -
The calamitous decline of the Catholic Church In the U.S ...The calamitous decline of the Catholic Church In the US from National Review provided by Find Articles at BNET.
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_1_57/ai_n13610441/ - 36k - Cached - Similar pages -
Daylight Atheism > The Decline of the Catholic ChurchEbon, another factor in the decline of the Catholic Church is that some Catholics find the routine of mass to be stale and lacking in spirituality. ...
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Amazon.com: The Decline and Fall of the Catholic Church in America ...Amazon.com: The Decline and Fall of the Catholic Church in America: David Carlin: Books.
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KE

[ May 19, 2009, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Wayward Son
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quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Wayward Son:

quote:
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I just think that a college graduation ceremony is an inappropriate place for discussions about abortion.
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He may agree, but when there's a 800-pound gorrilla sitting next to you, it sometimes is worthwhile to mention it.
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What does Rush Limbaugh have to do with it?

Oh, wow. You mean he's lost weight? [Big Grin]

[ May 19, 2009, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Wayward Son ]

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KnightEnder
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[Big Grin]

[ May 19, 2009, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Matthew Compton
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I'm just a lurker and all, but how is it you can make such a broad statement about Catholics treating women like second class citizens and yet no one asks you to back it up? Right away I'll tell you I'm biased. I'm Catholic, my wife is Catholic and oh, at least one friend is Catholic. At no point have either my wife or any other woman that I attend Mass with ever state that they feel they are less than any other.

Almost any Catholic run program here in Seattle/Bellevue has a female in charge of it. I don't think I've ever been on a spirtual retreat that was run by a man unless it was a retreat just for men.

Maybe that's only here in Seattle. Maybe in Texas it's a completely different scenario. Oh well.

I also find your other claims, hording money, bashing gays and lying about contraceptive equally weak. But I'm probably a blind sheep that needs to open myself to more bigoted anger to see the truth...

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Lina Inverse
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
So, Michelle if it's not the celibecy that is driving all these priests to molest little boys are you saying that whatever drives someone to be a priest also drives them to be a pedophile?

KE

It's a problem with clergy in general, whether Protestant or Catholic; the RCC gets more bad press because it's more centralized and because the media ran with it because it feeds into stereotypes about Catholicism. (I'd suggest Pedophiles and Priests for further reading.)

Celibacy doesn't have anything to do with it, and spirituality probably doesn't either--pedophiles will often try to get into situations where they can be left alone with children, whether as a pastor or as a relative.

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KnightEnder
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Matthew,

They are all terrified of my rapier wit! [Smile]

Any women priests? Bishops? Cardinals? Popes? Birth control. Abortion. Nuns! (one of the worst institutions ever.) I'll think of some more.

KE

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