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Author Topic: Equal Rights for Men
Gaoics79
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quote:
People know when they're getting shafted, and when the game has been fixed against them. Vandalizing your prison cell is a normal, human reaction.
You know, I didn't have a problem with your analysis in terms of the underlying policies that exacerbated or caused crime and the deterioration of the urban projects.

But you go too far when you imply that crime is somehow justified in such an environment. No one is forced to destroy their own home.

Just because we recognize bad policy and its deleterious effects on communities, doesn't mean we have to rationalize, let alone applaud the actions of petty criminals.

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KidB
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quote:
But you go too far when you imply that crime is somehow justified in such an environment. No one is forced to destroy their own home.

I'm not justifying anything. Please show me at what point I argued that unnacceptable behavior becomes acceptable.

Perhaps this will clarify it for you - when judging the behavior of an individual you hold them to the same standards and expectations, legally and ethically, as everyone else. This makes sense, because only individuals can make decisions about their own behavior.

But societies and populations do not make decisions en masse. In the aggregate, they follow predictible trends. You can predict that if you cause, say, 1000 people in a prison camp to go hungery for three days, their behavior will drastically change. Some will behave better than others. Some will behave extremely badly, in a manner you could call criminal.

If I have instigated that situation, am I responsible for the overall effect on that population of people? Yes.

Am I responsible for the particular actions of any one particular individual? Not really.

If one dude reacts to being hungry by flipping out and murdering someone else, while many others are able to behave ethically, I am not a murderer. But I *am* responsible for the overall outcome of starving 1000 people in a confined space for three days, because it is forseeable that some people will behave that way in that situation.

Make sense?

[ June 04, 2009, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: KidB ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
How do you propose that be done without increasing the difficulty of escaping abusive situations, drug abuse, suicide rates, and overall incidence of perjury? (All of which declined dramatically as a result of no-fault divorce)
Suicide rates for whom? It was my understanding that men are at a much higher risk for suicide than women, particularly those that have recently been divorced.

Before I answer the question though, let me just query: is there actually objective evidence supporting a causal connection (not merely correlation) between a decline in suicide, drug abuse, and domestic violence with the advent of no-fault divorce?

Do you know what patent medicine was? Very specifically, do you realize that it was essentially an industry devoted to selling opium to women attempting to escape from the reality that they were trapped in.

On the more general point, I'll have to dig to see what links have been explicitly found, but the general statistics (counting alcoholism as a form of drug abuse) point to a significant decline in all of those categories that correlates with the introduction of no-fault divorce.

quote:
One point on the abuse issue. I think it goes without saying that if your spouse is beating you up, any sane regime would categorize that as a legitimate ground for divorce. So for truly abused women, I can't see any issue.
But the necessity to prove fault actively prevents the abused from leaving; it's an integral part of the emotional damage done. Just picking up and leaving is a huge barrier as it is. Anything more than that (especially anything that forces a confrontation or contest with the abuser) only serves to extend that trap.
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KidB
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quote:
But you go too far when you imply that crime is somehow justified in such an environment. No one is forced to destroy their own home.

Vandalising your *own* home is not a crime.

I would also point out that "ownership" is a highly questionable concept when you are renting in the PJs, in effect paying for services you are not getting and unable to exert any sort of leverage against the building's owner, who has state sanctioned authority. It does stretch the concept of criminality more than a little.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
I'm not justifying anything. Please show me at what point I argued that unnacceptable behavior becomes acceptable.
With all due respect, what IS your point then?
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RickyB
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Jason, that's why they invented the prenup. You want enforceable rights, get one.

"Uhhhh...because under "no-fault" the fact that your spouse cannot be penalized for the adultery!"

not penalized in terms of the settlement, but it's "cause". It makes a difference in the proceedings. Her lawyer can't say "you just decided to leave."

Also, are you arguing that more married women than men cheat? Because it's not like the law says you can only punish a man for adultery.

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OpsanusTau
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I would just like to add my anecdotal voice to the "divorce really isn't that damaging to children" chorus.

My parents divorced when I was two, after twelve years of marriage and two children.

They hate each other. It's cooled off a little bit NOW (quarter-century later, imagine), but still they're not really cordial. I literally cannot remember my parents having more that five minutes at a time of civil interactions with each other during most of my formative years.

I never wished they hadn't gotten divorced. Sixteen years of living with people who hated each other (even if they had managed to be polite in front of the children) would have been far more damaging to me than getting to live in two stable, loving families was.

Incidentally, I'm not just guessing about the damage; my ex's parents stayed together "for the children", and when he was moving out of the house to go to college, his mom was moving out too because she no longer felt like she needed to stay. His childhood was not happy, and the experience of growing up surrounded by a relationship defined by contempt and entrapment has lead to him having deeply screwed-up feelings about relationships.

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KnightEnder
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My parents stayed married until I was 18 and I prayed and tried to get them to get divorced from the time I was about 10 years old. I would have been much happier and much better off if they had gotten divorced instead of putting me through a decade of hell. 'Just' staying married, isn't enough. It got so bad that I would cringe in my bed if I heard them laughing in the other room; afraid another knock-down-drag-out fight was about to start. I still to this day can't stand people screaming and we don't have it in our house. (On a ballfield is okay, but not in the house.)

KE

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KidB
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VL


quote:
With all due respect, what IS your point then?
Read what follows the sentence you quoted, and then connect that to what I was saying earlier about "blaming black culture," and everything that follows about housing policy. I don't know how I can make it more clear than that.

What are you not getting?

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Mormegil
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quote:
My parents stayed married until I was 18 and I prayed and tried to get them to get divorced from the time I was about 10 years old. I would have been much happier and much better off if they had gotten divorced instead of putting me through a decade of hell.
I just want to remind everyone that it's not a "get divorced, or stay married and ruin everyone's lives" dichotomy.

It's possible to stay married even though you don't like your spouse any more but still be civil.

To compare, suppose a parent sends their kid to boarding school and never really interacts with them at all. Pretty sucky parent, right? Never there for their kids, even on break... let an institution raise 'em...

But the sort of parent that would do that in the first place is not likely to be a good parent if boarding school wasn't an option... in that case, better a good school raises them than live at home with a parent that *won't*...

But that doesn't make boarding school a good thing for kids. If we've already eliminated the possibility that the parent will actually, y'know, be a *parent*, then boarding school is clearly the lesser of two evils.

Yeah, if we start from the premise that a particular married couple can't live in the same house without abuse, alienation, screaming, etc, then OF COURSE it's better that they don't live together.

(Even people that hate divorce as a concept should agree with that, since, actually, it doesn't necessarily mean divorce, as people can always just separate.)

But that's only true if you start from the premise that one or more of the people involved are selfish scumbags that can't just work things out civilly for the sake of the kids.

Which is absolutely true sometimes.

But not all the time, not as much as people like to think, I imagine. I think a lot of folks who get divorced *could* get along and it would benefit the children for them to stay together.

It's just that they place their own happiness ahead of their kids.

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scifibum
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quote:
But that's only true if you start from the premise that one or more of the people involved are selfish scumbags that can't just work things out civilly for the sake of the kids.

Which is absolutely true sometimes.

But not all the time, not as much as people like to think, I imagine. I think a lot of folks who get divorced *could* get along and it would benefit the children for them to stay together.

Thing is, there might not be much overlap between selfish scumbags and people who COULD stay married but still put a high priority on being good parents. I think the point is that it's not divorce itself which is harmful, but bad parenting. And good parenting is harder when you're divorced, but can still happen.

Maybe there's only a small set of people who COULD get along and be better parents by staying married but are getting divorced anyway. I don't know how to tell.

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OpsanusTau
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quote:
It's possible to stay married even though you don't like your spouse any more but still be civil.
I think that maybe what some of us are saying is that parents who are "still civil" even though they don't love each other may not benefit their children by staying married.

If what we want is (among other things) to teach our children by example how to love other people, I am not sure how this goal is served by making their primary example of interpersonal relationship one that is defined by duty and concealed lack of love.

I mean - because my parents had the good sense to divorce, and because they remarried partners who were better for them, I have experiential knowledge of what it is like to be in a family centered around a happy marriage. Two, actually. So I have a good idea what I'm looking for and working towards.

When parents who don't love each other stay together "for their children", they produce children who as adults don't know what a stable, long-term relationship looks like from the inside.

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flydye45
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You mean "self sacrifice" isn't something of value?
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PSRT
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quote:
You mean "self sacrifice" isn't something of value?
Only if what is gained by the people sacrificed for is of more value than what is sacrificed.
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OpsanusTau
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quote:
You mean "self sacrifice" isn't something of value?
By itself? No. It isn't.
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Mormegil
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quote:
If what we want is (among other things) to teach our children by example how to love other people, I am not sure how this goal is served by making their primary example of interpersonal relationship one that is defined by duty and concealed lack of love.
I'll take an example of duty over a broken home, and remarriages that might not even be any more healthy anyway.

My parents didn't divorce, they almost did, but didn't. I'm glad they didn't. Very, very glad. I learned how to love from other relationships, and that would have been a lot harder if I hadn't had some stability. We had a messed up family in a lot of ways (my brother was an utterly worthless individual responsible for a lot of the nonsense), but at least it was a family.

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KidB
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quote:
You mean "self sacrifice" isn't something of value?
This is the crux of the matter really. I don't think that taking care of someone you love (spouses, children) is "self-sacrifice." If you love them, and your happiness and theirs are inextricable, devotion to them is not "sacrifice." It's the exact opposite, actually - selfishness in the best sense of the term.

Treating your own happiness as if it's irrelevent - that is "self-sacrifice." And this is where I'm a bit of a Randian, I suppose. I think people who go around ignoring their own need to be happy are harmful, destructive people. You cannot function and help others if your are not happy. It's impossible. If you are unhappy it will deeply affect other people. No amount of stoicism or civility will hide your unhappiness from others, especially your children. Society has already learned this lesson the hard way. I don't know why we still have to talk about it.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mormegil:

My parents didn't divorce, they almost did, but didn't. I'm glad they didn't. Very, very glad. I learned how to love from other relationships, and that would have been a lot harder if I hadn't had some stability. We had a messed up family in a lot of ways (my brother was an utterly worthless individual responsible for a lot of the nonsense), but at least it was a family.

My parents almost divorced, but didn't, and I find myself feeling ambivalent about that all the time. They are STILL trading bitter verbal swipes on a daily basis, still competing for control of finances, still seeming essentially loveless and cold.

As a kid I was terrified of a divorce; I didn't want to lose the family we had.

But the family I had taught me nothing of warmth or affection (romance/eros); I think this seriously contributed to a deep down belief that I'd never merit any for myself, which led to some behavior I regret and years of loneliness that I really REALLY regret.

What if my mother and father had split and found more compatible spouses? If just one of them married happily I'd have learned a lot about that stuff. If I'd gotten a stepsister I might even have learned not to be so terrified of girls.

I can't know whether it would have been better if they divorced; maybe it would have meant more stress and poverty and going from a bad example of romantic attachment to zero examples. Who knows?

But I CAN point to things about the salvaged marriage that I think were damaging, and I have a theory about how a split-and-remarry course of action might have benefited me.

So, you know, it's complicated.

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OpsanusTau
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quote:
I'll take an example of duty over a broken home, and remarriages that might not even be any more healthy anyway.
I'm not sure if you are making some sort of nasty swipe here or not - I will just say that in the case of MY family, both second marriages are far more healthy than the original.

Additionally, a home isn't any less broken just because you leave the pieces next to each other. Two people either are or are not loving partners for each other. If they are, yes, they can work on things and fix them and should do this, stay married, work for something good. If they aren't, there is nothing to be gained for anyone by their continuing to make themselves and everyone around them miserable.

I guess given the choice, I would take an example where love and duty were both served by the parents splitting as amicably as possible when a split is necessary, remaining as teammates in the raising of their children and not polluting the children's lives with anger and despair.

Call me crazy.

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Funean
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quote:
Additionally, a home isn't any less broken just because you leave the pieces next to each other.
QFT. Awesome aphorism.

It's important to remember that children generally emulate the marriage they saw when growing up. If you truly can't manage to provide them with a better example than strife, abuse, despair, hatred or loveless and bitter duty, they are better off with two parents who might be able to conduct themselves as a productive parenting team without the stress of pretending at a marriage.

And I say that as someone who believes love is a verb, not a feeeeeling. People have a big fat sense of entitlement when it comes to love, and don't seem to realize that most of the time what you get out of things is what you put into them.

Divorce should be the last option when children are involved, but there are times when that last option is the only one left, and it's far preferable to to dissolve a toxic or irreparably dead marriage than to raise a child in it.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Additionally, a home isn't any less broken just because you leave the pieces next to each other."

It is, indeed, an impeccable aphorism, but I will note that glue won't mend a broken house unless one holds the pieces together long for it so set.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
You mean "self sacrifice" isn't something of value?

When done willingly in the face of hardships for a greater benefit? Sure. When forced and simply serving to perpetuate or exacerbate a bad situation? None at all.
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flydye45
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Here is the problem with that 'model'. Most first time divorces don't do much better the second time around. Serial marriages. While I'm happy it worked out for your parents, statistics aren't generally so forgiving.

It's as I tell my kids. All of life is an example. Sometimes it's a BAD example. You can learn from them too.

[ June 07, 2009, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

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flydye45
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But let's see. Patience, learning to deal with people you don't like, teamwork, larger goals.

But I can see such is a hard sell here.

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0Megabyte
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... and why the hell should someone be forced to stick with someone they really and truly don't like again?

Dealing with them and being forced to stay living with them is two different things.

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0Megabyte
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The sarcasm and bitterness, btw, the whole "I can see it's such a hard sell here" as the most recent example, is getting a little ridiculous.

That's the sort of passive-aggressive carp that's been making me not wish to talk here very much lately.

It's getting to the point where civility is not much more than skin-deep, and it's as bad as I've ever seen it.

I mean, forgive me for focusing on you for it, I know I'm biased and I bet the reason I place my spotlight at your post is because I don't really agree with you in the first place, but it doesn't just go for you.

This place is, at times, getting downright vile lately.

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0Megabyte
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I mean, do you really imagine that what people are saying is some stupid caricature like "everyone should just do whatever they want, forget the consequences!"
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OpsanusTau
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quote:
Here is the problem with that 'model'. Most first time divorces don't do much better the second time around. Serial marriages.
Correlation is not causation.
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Kuato
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
But let's see. Patience, learning to deal with people you don't like, teamwork, larger goals.

But I can see such is a hard sell here.

Well, I agree and disagree. Every time we make commitments we need to work with the consequences. All commitments have "unwinds" or how to leave equitably, and that is part of the consequences we must all accept.

I love the concept of marriage- which is a development proposal. And when it is broken by one or both partners, I am thrilled with the concept of divorce- which is a division of the results of the development period and equitable plans thereafter.

The part that gets to bug me is when those who have divorced refuse to properly participate in the separation. I am annoyed to see snotty ex-wives or withholding ex-husbands. And it is only worse when there are children- whatever feelings that are hurt should be shielded from them - and the children should be told first and foremost that their continued welfare is a top priority as life moves forward.

Consequences happen either way, and those who make the development agreement are also automatically agreeing to be civil and responsible in the case of divorce. I think this kind of humane attitude also prevents divorce, just as the option of divorce in general prevents the worst of abuses from occurring in our society today, unlike 100 years ago when abuse of spouse or children was common.

[ June 08, 2009, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Kuato ]

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Mormegil
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quote:
I'm not sure if you are making some sort of nasty swipe here or not
I wasn't.
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OpsanusTau
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Okay. I'm glad.
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KnightEnder
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
But let's see. Patience, learning to deal with people you don't like, teamwork, larger goals.

But I can see such is a hard sell here.

Awwww! Want some cheese with that whine? [Smile]

When I got here this place was a cross between the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and a GOP barbeque; man up!

KE

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"Additionally, a home isn't any less broken just because you leave the pieces next to each other."

It is, indeed, an impeccable aphorism, but I will note that glue won't mend a broken house unless one holds the pieces together long for it so set.

Sweet!

KE

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Kuato
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but can the pieces truly be forced?
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