Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Charges Against Black Panthers Dropped by Obama JD (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Charges Against Black Panthers Dropped by Obama JD
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Charges brought against three members of the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense under the Bush administration have been dropped by the Obama Justice Department, FOX News has learned.

The charges stemmed from an incident at a Philadelphia polling place on Election Day 2008 when three members of the party were accused of trying to threaten voters and block poll and campaign workers by the threat of force -- one even brandishing what prosecutors call a deadly weapon.

The three black panthers, Minister King Samir Shabazz, Malik Zulu Shabazz and Jerry Jackson were charged in a civil complaint in the final days of the Bush administration with violating the voter rights act by using coercion, threats and intimidation. Shabazz allegedly held a nightstick or baton that prosecutors said he pointed at people and menacingly tapped it. Prosecutors also say he "supports racially motivated violence against non-blacks and Jews."

The Obama administration won the case last month, but moved to dismiss the charges on May 15.

Click here to see FOX News video from the scene on election day.

Click to watch the incident on YouTube.

The complaint says the men hurled racial slurs at both blacks and whites.

A poll watcher who provided an affidavit to prosecutors in the case noted that Bartle Bull, who worked as a civil rights lawyer in the south in the 1960's and is a former campaign manager for Robert Kennedy, said it was the most blatant form of voter intimidation he had ever seen.

In his affidavit, obtained by FOX News, Bull wrote "I watched the two uniformed men confront voters and attempt to intimidate voters. They were positioned in a location that forced every voter to pass in close proximity to them. The weapon was openly displayed and brandished in plain sight of voters."

He also said they tried to "interfere with the work of other poll observers ... whom the uniformed men apparently believed did not share their preferences politically," noting that one of the panthers turned toward the white poll observers and said "you are about to be ruled by the black man, cracker."

A spokesman for the Department of Justice told FOX News, "The Justice Department was successful in obtaining an injunction that prohibits the defendant who brandished a weapon outside a Philadelphia polling place from doing so again. Claims were dismissed against the other defendants based on a careful assessment of the facts and the law. The department is committed to the vigorous prosecution of those who intimidate, threaten or coerce anyone exercising his or her sacred right to vote."

What? Doesn't that last sentence go against everything else reported in the article? [Confused] [Mad]

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Redskullvw
Member
Member # 188

 - posted      Profile for Redskullvw   Email Redskullvw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Justice Department does stand for protection of the right of citizens to vote. It even won its case- proving in trial that the men were guilty of voter intimidation.

The crux of the outcome however is racial. The NBPPSD could be counted upon to get out the vote for Democrats- and Obama- by what many at the time called outright intimidation and fear mongering. It was poopooed at the time by Obama's supporters. Obama is simply directing his JD to not uphold the law because in this case it was of direct advantage to his being elected and presumably he wants to make sure that in cities where the NBPPSD is powerful will again deliver vote blocks that will keep Obama in power during the next election.

Very cut and dry.

This is the "Change We Can Believe In" that about half of the voters voted for. I hope that you are all enjoying the progressive installation of a traditional fascist system. He took over your banks. He took over your mercantile exchange markets. He is about to take over your health care. And he is in the process of ensuring that the automotive industry becomes part of a corporative state structure where the government directly owns private firms while also assuring that the unionized labor groups are beholden to the continuation of government influence in exchange for 50% ownership of non-governmental stock.

It truly is breathtaking.

Posts: 6333 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
(1) The Obama DOJ has dropped prosecutions against both Democrats and Republicans

(2) Obama did not participate in the unsavory Democratic practice of handing out "walking-around-money" to assist in get-out-the-vote in Philadelphia. This may have cost him votes both in the primary and in the general election. If your diagnosis of his character is correct, why did he not spend some of his ample campaign cash in that time-honored (but disreputable) way of eliciting more votes?

Posts: 4178 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
D Pace
Member
Member # 1493

 - posted      Profile for D Pace   Email D Pace       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Redskullvw:
I hope that you are all enjoying the progressive installation of a traditional fascist system.

Red, of all people, are you enjoying it? [Wink]
Posts: 376 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with Red. Surpise, surprise.

My new catch phrase for cases like this is quite simple:

This is what America voted for. If people didn't know it at the time, they should have. And maybe now some of them do.

Posts: 7675 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I hope that you are all enjoying the progressive installation of a traditional fascist system.
Are you? As our resident fascist, how do you feel about the implementation of policies you have endorsed for years?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidB
Member
Member # 3016

 - posted      Profile for KidB   Email KidB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Did you read the original charges?

Did you watch the video?

I'm guessing not.

Attorney General Mukasey (under Bush) filed for an injunction against three individuals involved in a particular incident.

As noted in the article:

quote:
The Justice Department was successful in obtaining an injunction that prohibits the defendant who brandished a weapon outside a Philadelphia polling place from doing so again.
The charges were dropped against the other two, probably because they didn't do anything.

Watch the video

You guys need better spin-dar.

Jeesh.

The videographer basically provoked the incident.

Posts: 1960 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was at work. Couldn't watch the video.
Wife and dogs are asleep now. Still can't watch the video, and can't sleep.

But I take the word of Fox News as gospel. I'm not going to take some commie liberal like you'se word over theirs!

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Redskullvw
Member
Member # 188

 - posted      Profile for Redskullvw   Email Redskullvw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tom

You should already know the answer.

And for those of you who don't know. It is a very bad development. Fascist systems wind up radicalized, marginalize certain classes, eliminate other classes, and almost virtually insure the end of viable democratic institutions. It is indeed a very effective form of government, but with very few exceptions, once a country adopts facist goverment theory and practice- it is highly doubtful that it will escape political and national disintegration.

As one of my professors pointed out nearly 20 years ago, America will likely vote itself into a peaceful fascist transition. And at the time he said it would be about 20 years before it happened.

Amazingly- he was right. Unfortunately he is still alive to see it.

Posts: 6333 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Unfortunately, I'M alive to see it.

Edited to add: I am less concerned with this then I am the Census stuff, the buying and controlling corporations, the muscling banks to do whatever he wishes, his glad handing his cronies in ways against the Rule of Law etc.

He said that he's going to drop all this when the emergency stops. I've heard such things before in South America. And pooh poohing the issue does not remove the danger.

[ May 30, 2009, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by KidB:
Did you read the original charges?

Did you watch the video?

I'm guessing not.


The videographer basically provoked the incident.

Yeah. He put the three thugs there, he gave the guy a stick. Sure! He went up and asked questions. When Michael Moore does it, it's 'gotcha journalism.' When the Right is exposing some questionable practice, it's provocation.

[ May 30, 2009, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You mean this huge change over the last administration was muscling telecoms to get data without warrants, the banking takeovers began, and federal troops gained greater authorization to be deployed domestically?

I tend to agree that we are headed for fascist government, but lets not pretend that voting for McCain would have somehow halted this trend.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Last administration used rape and murder as interrogation tools.

It's possible that Democrats are heading towards fascism too, but Republicans are going much faster in that direction.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, I think we all agree, even our right leaning members (the ones that lean to the right of right [Wink] ) that the last administration sucked. NOW can we move on and be objective about the CURRENT administration?!!!

[Smile] Just kidding. I never used to could understand how the republicans could not let go of bashing Clinton, but now I see how addictive it is. Hate; keeps you warm. [Smile]

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Show me that telecoms were muscled. I can discuss Chrysler bondholders, GM bondholders, the banks, AIG, etc. We can talk about large sums given to political activists.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Last administration used rape and murder as interrogation tools.

Of course we do. Because it's SO easy to get answers out of dead people.

Thanks for playing.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
Yes, I think we all agree, even our right leaning members (the ones that lean to the right of right [Wink] ) that the last administration sucked. NOW can we move on and be objective about the CURRENT administration?!!!

[Smile] Just kidding. I never used to could understand how the republicans could not let go of bashing Clinton, but now I see how addictive it is. Hate; keeps you warm. [Smile]

KE

I'm still waiting for the haters to get a bit reflective about Obama's acceptance of Bush tactics. That penny has not dropped.

Of course, because he's charismatic, has a love affair with the press (is there ANY magazine he isn't going to be on the cover? I see him more then Chinamen have seen Mao), and has an emergency to exploit, well, I can just yawn and roll over. Bald Pandering with federal goodies. Nope. No problem here.

"Don't cry for me, Venezuuueeela..."

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cperry
Member
Member # 1938

 - posted      Profile for cperry   Email cperry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've never heard anyone talk about reading as an addiction -- growing up, "She's reading a book" was about the highest praise my mom could give us. We weren't encouraged to go outside and play.

I have since found myself in certain periods of my life using the escape of novels equal to what I suppose alcoholics seek in booze.

Thanks for sharing this personal story; it's definitely got me doing some introspection.

Posts: 2782 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Last administration used rape and murder as interrogation tools.

Of course we do. Because it's SO easy to get answers out of dead people.
You're correct -- answers were never your motivation, your sadism was. Very well, I'm rephrasing this into "You used interrogation as an excuse for murder and rape."

You sound like my brother used to sound in regards to torture. "President Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice and the rest of the administration must surely have known that America had nothing to gain and certainly a lot to lose from such treatment of prisoners in American hands"

I don't care WHY your administrations was as stupid as that. I am not interested in defenses based on your supposed cleverness. You're not clever, you're MORONS, therefore such argument don't apply.

I care about facts. And these facts are no longer disputable: you MURDERED and you RAPED. And you called it "harsh interrogation techniques".

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm still waiting for the haters to get a bit reflective about Obama's acceptance of Bush tactics.
Yes, his refusal to reveal all photos to the press, denies me the small hope I would have had that America might possibly make an actual break from torture and rape. And that therefore attacks on American troops would no longer be morally justified.
Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I won't go on about the previous admin, by request. [Smile] For flyde, just go back to the old threads about the Patriot act and telecommunications privacy and re-ignore them.

I just wish that the right would hold their people accountable, and the left theirs. The blind devotion and selective memory will lead some moderates to "switch sides" periodically, and accomplish nothing.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidB
Member
Member # 3016

 - posted      Profile for KidB   Email KidB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yeah. He put the three thugs there, he gave the guy a stick. Sure! He went up and asked questions. When Michael Moore does it, it's 'gotcha journalism.' When the Right is exposing some questionable practice, it's provocation.


What's your problem? The Obama DOJ won the injunction against that guy.

As for the other two, I really think this is a mountain out of a molehill. Urban black neighborhoods have been home to various "Black Panther" style groups from time immemorial. That's what they have instead of cops. Because cops can't be bothered to keep things nice and lovey-dovey in the darker parts of town.

Usually - at least where I live (NYC) - there's a cop or two in front of the polling station when I go to vote.

Do you see any cops in that video? No, you don't. What you have, my friend, is a policing vacuum, which is why you get vigilante groups like that in the first place.

Honestly, if some white guy was a local who just walked in to vote, sans video crew, there would have been no problem. I ride the subway with Black Panther-type dudes just like those guys every day of my life. Those are not the guys I fear.

[ May 30, 2009, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: KidB ]

Posts: 1960 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I'm still waiting for the haters to get a bit reflective about Obama's acceptance of Bush tactics. That penny has not dropped."

Why do you lie in such a blatant and ugly manner? Nearly every single regular liberal here has voiced disappointment over each and every such instance, most of us more than once. Why do you simply ignore reality in order to make a strawman attack? Are you really that pathetically desperate? That desperate to extract "admissions" we've already made without any external pressure whatsoever, but simply because it's how we actually feel?

The fading of the Repugnican party is really doing a number on your sense of self, huh? I feel for you. However, that doesn't mean I allow you to lie about me. So snap the **** out of it.

[ May 30, 2009, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Yes, his refusal to reveal all photos to the press,"

As has been printed out, the law in the US (and most countries, I'd wager) prohibits the publication of rape victim photos, so scoff all you want, but if that is indeed what's in the photos, there's a legal quandary here. I don't want to see photos, but I want the press to see them and describe what's in them, who's responsible and how they're being punished.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"I'm still waiting for the haters to get a bit reflective about Obama's acceptance of Bush tactics. That penny has not dropped."

Why do you lie in such a blatant and ugly manner? Nearly every single regular liberal here has voiced disappointment over each and every such instance, most of us more than once. Why do you simply ignore reality in order to make a strawman attack? Are you really that pathetically desperate? That desperate to extract "admissions" we've already made without any external pressure whatsoever, but simply because it's how we actually feel?


You don't understand what I'm saying, so I'll ignore that last bit. One of your own, as much as one can be, has taken a look and accepted that which you opposed.

I have NOT said that you have changed your principles. I have stated that you have not reconsidered the necessity or effectiveness of these techniques. President "Present", who has more responsibility then clowns on the internet, is suddenly much more sympathetic to the plight Bush faced, even as he tries to have it both ways by excoriating him on these practices publically while he maintains them. Cheney is right.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Aris, you seem to not realize the difference between "policy" and "crimes." Murder and Rape are NOT American policy. That does not mean it hasn't occured.

But you are correct. I just LOVE to masturbate over the idea that some terrorist somewhere is being waterboarded. You called it in one. Certainly it isn't something I view as a tragic necessity. Nope. And if the WOT ends, I'll advocate replacing them with obnoxious Greeks. [Roll Eyes]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I haven't reconsidered because I haven't been presented with any new facts to make me reconsider. The sole fact that a ruthless politician has changed his stripes upon becoming the creature of his job rather than the master of it, or having decided that doing the right thing would distract too much from the other urgent challenges, is not sufficient to make me change my mind, and indeed it would be pretty loathsome if it were - it would play right into the old "when your [my] guy does it, it's alright". It's not.

Check out my blog on Open Salon for two theories on why he's doing what he's doing, ASSUMING his heart is in the right place after all.

And I take back the harsh words if that was what you meant.

Oh - And Cheney is rarely right. If I was doing the correspondent's dinner and he was there, I'd be sorely tempted to serenade him with the last two stanzas from "Masters of War". Then again, he wouldn't be. He'd be cowering in his undisclosed location, wouldn't he?

[ May 30, 2009, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Redskullvw
Member
Member # 188

 - posted      Profile for Redskullvw   Email Redskullvw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ricky

That is one of the reasons I respect your opinions when it comes to politics. Yes you are liberal & you tend to project a viewpoint that all things are possible, but you also expect liberals to govern to the letter of that standard. Obama ran on a campaign that said we wouldn't have government secrecy and our policies would be so plain that any infractions by those who implement administration executive policy would be patently obvious.

Unfortunately for Obama, reality sets in and geopolitical realities and realpolitic present him with some ugly choices. I think he is right in following most of Bush's policies in the War on Terror. Window dressing definitional changes notwithstanding, Obama is facing the reality of the office.

You haven't changed your stance on these issues. But could you at least acknowledge that given what Obama now knows, and the fact he is continuing those policies in full measure, may indicate that whomever became President would be forced by reality to do the exact same policy?

And as to rape and murder being policy--- GIVE ME A BREAK.

That last wasn't for you Ricky.

Posts: 6333 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
flydye45
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well said.

And I would add that Cheney called Obama on some of his muckraking, and Obama blinked. After Obama cherry picked revelations to denigrate the previous office holders, Cheney as much as said "Put it ALL out, even the stuff that exonerates us, if we are going to play fast and loose with national security."

Never seen such quick backpedaling. Which goes to show that I am at least partially incorrect on my assessment of Obama: He IS smarter then Pelosi, who is intent on digging herself deeper. So, the smartest guy to be President in living history follows the Bush doctrine. Nope. No cause for reflection... [Big Grin]

[ May 30, 2009, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Red, since you are being courteous I will refrain from any heat, and simply note that had I, or any other liberal, said "well, if Obama is doing it, that must mean there's a legit reason to do it", you and Fly and Mariner and Paladin andf every other conservative here would have a field day with the inherent hypocrisy of such a statement. Hell, G2 pretends that's what we're saying and has himself a fools field day as it is. [Smile]

So no. Like I said, barring a new ARGUMENT, backed with new relevant facts, I see zero reason to change my stance on the matter. I don't know Obama personally, have not "looked in his eyes and seen his soul", and any man capable of ascending to the Presidency is suspect by default.

Like I keep telling you guys about interest groups, organizations have their own agenda, which is not the full picture. The ACLU cares only about civil rights, to the extent that once in a while even I say "Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but I ain't going there, sorry."

However, the Presidency is not supposed to be like that. If the president has a reason for behaving in a manner inconsistent with his own promises and with the agenda of the vast majority of his supporters, he better make a case.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
Aris, you seem to not realize the difference between "policy" and "crimes."

You seem not to realize the similarity.

quote:
Murder and Rape are NOT American policy.
It's only American policy to let it happen, to not really care about if it happens, to cover it up when it does happen, and to insult those who
insist it happened.

Once upon a time you probably believed that torture wasn't American policy either.

quote:
That does not mean it hasn't occured.
Only that you don't give a damn that it has occured, as you repeatedly prove.

quote:
Certainly it isn't something I view as a tragic necessity.
You are certainly tear-filled when discussing torture, murder and rape. You are not merely mocking us bleeding-heart liberals who object to these.

quote:
Nope. And if the WOT ends, I'll advocate replacing them with obnoxious Greeks. [Roll Eyes]

Certainly a few decades back it was leftist Greeks and leftist South-Americans that were being tortured with the support and encouragement of America (you were more powerful back then and you usually outsourced the torture to quislings - you're weaker now and you need stain your own hands). Now it's Arabs and other muslim darkies. A few decades from now you may be torturing and raping Australians for all I know.

You think there will EVER come a time when you won't be thinking of torture, murder and rape as a sad necessity to defeat whatever threat you're claiming to be facing?

quote:

And as to rape and murder being policy--- GIVE ME A BREAK.

So, if it's not policy, how many soldiers have gone to jail for murdering and raping prisoners? Only the people that got revealed in public photos for Abu Ghraib abuse?

Gotta figure out why I'm so annoyed at no more photos being revealed. You never punish anyone if there's not some photo-frenzy attached.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Redskullvw
Member
Member # 188

 - posted      Profile for Redskullvw   Email Redskullvw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"So, if it's not policy, how many soldiers have gone to jail for murdering and raping prisoners?"

What may amaze you is the fact that the USA military is noted for the extremes it goes to to neither harm civilians during combat nor adversely harm them during a time of military general government. We are noted as being exceptional in this. We are also noted for being exceptionally terse in our standards of military conduct. UNLIKE the overwhelming majorities of militaries in the world- we do charge and prosecute our own for ANY failures of military code and especially those instances where civilians are involved.

It is interesting to note that liberals as a general group deride two nation's militaries far more than any others- i.e. Israel & the USA. Yep- we got every single instance dragged out during the events in the War on Terror and Israel's invasion of Lebanon & Hamas being tossed about for 3000 rocket launches. We got every single ERROR brought to our attention.

Let us set something straight. When our troops murder or rape- they go to jail for a VERY long time. It isn't our policy to allow such acts.

You seem uniquely comfortable in your ability to criticiize and hold our nation to a standard that has never been met by any nation at any time. What the rest of the world finds incredible is not that OBAMA is the SAVIOR- rather that we hold our military forces to such unreasonable standards.

The rest of the world cares less about the civilians in the way.

Posts: 6333 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
We are noted as being exceptional in this.
By whom? I mean, the British and Australians aren't looking to us for pointers on this.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Redskullvw
Member
Member # 188

 - posted      Profile for Redskullvw   Email Redskullvw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The claims of barbarity being part & parcel of the policies carried out by the American military is the common fodder of the liberal media, watchdog groups like Amnesty International & Doctors without borders, terrorist movements like Hamas, Hezballah, & AlQueda, and even governments of the second and third world. Not to mention depending upon political season even other governments of the first world decry American actions as being ones based upon barbarity and needless force.

The screaming of our barbarism is commonplace enough to have even effected Ornery. For example look up Murdock and his replete series of threads where he proposed and advocated that the American military is simply killing a million Iraqis without even a moment's thought. And many of you here who still contribute joined the argument behind such claims. Charges of rape, murder, thievery, extortion, and common battery were all just part of how the vast majority of our military conducted itself day to day.

The fact is that our military was exceptional in that we didn't have the issues either the British or Australians had in terms of charges of abuse and brutality towards civilians to the degree and initiation they did. And it was their own domestic media that pushed for and demanded their withdrawals partly because there were rapes, murders, thievery, battery, and extortion being committed multiple times by their own forces. Whereas the American forces were not guilty of such things. Of course we were guilty of far worse by taking pictures of naked piles of men who were being humiliated in an attempt to stop the perception by the insurgents that being a member of jihad was without penalty.

Knowing that if you were caught you would be paraded in front of female Americans naked & forced to wear women's thong underwear had a massive crippling effect upon insurgents wanting to continue the fight. Even the issue of the trumped up and ultimately revealed to be a hoax example of what truly would have been violence towards a prisoner just barely would have crossed the lines of battery. Yet we tried, convicted, and imprisoned nearly 50 soildiers/sailors/& CIA agents for things that even our allies don't bat an eye at.

Fact is our military is an anomaly amongst the standing armies of the world, with the plausible exception of Israel, in that we do the least harm to civilians during engagements and deployments. It really is a record that has no equal compared to what has gone before in history. You want to know what our military holds dear and important about the issue, mission, and policies?

Try reading some of the stuff Stray wrote about how they treated civilians. He could easily have been a shoot first ask questions later kind of person. But he was surrounded by people who also thought the only way to be successful was to conduct engagements with the civilians in as peaceful a manner as possible even if it ultimately meant that that generosity and civility would be taken advantage of by an enemy which saw no problem killing civilians as long as some Americans died as well.

The School of the Americas taught soildiers from nearly every country in the world that the military should be a tool of last resort controlled by civilian laws. People come to us to learn how to have a civilian controlled military which doesn't routinely brutalize civilians.

Unfortunately, what we have tried to teach and routinely practice as a military has yet to catch on in the majority of the world. You want to talk rape & murder? Try looking into Sri Lanka, the Philippines, North Korea, Congo, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Zambia, Nigeria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India- hell just about any other military currently engaged in the world to see REAL RAPE & MURDER as policy.

You know who conflates the almost incident free performance of the American military when dealing with civilians? People without perspective who find that the half dozen improper policy executions in regard to civilians comitted by Americans must be morally equivelent to the thousands of deaths and rapes daily commited by other militaries as policy goals.

I found a total of 8 American soilders who have been implicated in three rapes in Iraq since the war began. Two of the soildiers convicted were not even aware of the rape being done by people under their command but are still in jail because they did not control their men.

That speaks volumes as to our performance and destroys any argument that rape is a policy of the American military.

Of course finding concrete evidence of Americans murdering civilians is almost impossible due to the fact that googling "American Military murdering Iraqis" brings up so much left wing drivel that we have systematically "murdered" at least 1 million civilians that you can hardly find the three examples that were investigated and the one that was prosecuted but ultimately found to be baseless in Haditha.

I guess if you BELIEVE RAPE IS POLICY then the objective facts that rape is not policy don't matter. Nor does it matter that our behavior in not Raping and Murdering is seen as a concrete example of our weakness as far as our enemies are concerned, while also being an example of our uncontrolled imperialism when judged by our liberal media and politicians at home and amongst our allies.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/168/37155.html

Read this and then tell me how anyone can fairly claim Rape & murder are policy.

Posts: 6333 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidB
Member
Member # 3016

 - posted      Profile for KidB   Email KidB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Red,

Here we have almost irrefutible proof that you do not read...anything.

QUOTING FROM YOUR LINK:

quote:


The United States and its allies claim they do everything in their power to prevent civilian casualties. Yet, there are many accounts of Coalition forces opening fire and killing Iraqi civilians in circumstances where there was no imminent threat of death or injury to the Coalition troops or anyone else. This is in clear breach of international human rights standards relating to the use of force. In many cases of patrols, house searches, and relentless bombing campaigns, military personnel have used lethal force in absolutely unjustified circumstances. Studies of civilian mortality in Iraq suggest that tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed in this way since the occupation began.[

In Iraq, where US Coalition forces see every man of military age as a potential fighter, and where fear and anger affect the behavior of troops, events like the Haditha massacre are all too likely to occur. According to US Major General Eldon A. Bargewell, "all levels of command [tend] to view civilian casualties, even in significant numbers, as routine and as the natural and intended result of insurgent tactics." "Statements made by the chain of command (…), taken as a whole, suggest that Iraqi civilian lives are not as important as US lives, their deaths are just the cost of doing business, and that the Marines need to get 'the job done' no matter what it takes," he concluded.[71]

This environment of extreme violence and impunity paves the way for murder, rape and atrocities. These acts are prohibited by The Hague Conventions and the Geneva Conventions and they constitute serious war crimes.


and

quote:
In most cases of serious misconduct and murder, soldiers directly involved have tried to cover up the crimes and often commanders have ignored evidence, failed to actively pursue even the most serious cases and made exculpatory public statements.
and

quote:
The military justice system has acted only very rarely to punish cases of murder and atrocities. Most such cases have never reached the point of a formal charge. Those cases in which a charge has been handed down have usually been dismissed at the preliminary administrative tribunal stage or at the later court martial phase. Or they have been settled at either stage with a very mild rebuke or punishment. Very few charges have included premeditated murder, even in such egregious cases as Haditha.


and

quote:
From the very beginning of the occupation, there have been excessive and unnecessary deaths at military checkpoints.[10] Civilian casualties occur even at stable and well-defined checkpoints. But most risky are those checkpoints that are set up in ways that make them hard for motorists to see in advance – set up temporarily and suddenly, or in unexpected places, or at night, or in bad weather, or on curvy roads with poor visibility.

Posts: 1960 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Redskullvw:
What may amaze you is the fact that the USA military is noted for the extremes it goes to to neither harm civilians during combat nor adversely harm them during a time of military general government.

You're better than the other superpowers. That's it. And that's it alone.

quote:
It is interesting to note that liberals as a general group deride two nation's militaries far more than any others- i.e. Israel & the USA.
No, it's leftists that as a general group do that. Not liberals: Most leftists in the world aren't
liberal, they're authoritarian.

quote:
Let us set something straight. When our troops murder or rape- they go to jail for a VERY long time. It isn't our policy to allow such acts.
Dilawar Murdered in a US prison. Highest sentence passed: 2 months.

Is 2 months what you call a "VERY long time"?

quote:
You seem uniquely comfortable in your ability to criticiize and hold our nation to a standard that has never been met by any nation at any time.
I don't consider you unique in villainy. All nations are utterly monstrous when dealing with non-nationals. All the more reason not to invade other nations.
Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Redskullvw
Member
Member # 188

 - posted      Profile for Redskullvw   Email Redskullvw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
KIDb

Here we have irrefutable proof that on this issue you cannot comprehend what you read.

Your first pulled quote points out the obvious- civilians die in combat zones especially combat zones where there is an insurgency that does not operate in accord with the Geneva Conventions. It is a theater of a global war, and to expect to see no casualties of civilians is both unreasonable and childish. But having pointed that out to you, does it make any substantiation to the charge we RAPE & MURDER as policy?

It does not.

That you ignored the few cases where there were indeed rapes or murders- as presented in this article you failed to comprehend- is being exceptional cases makes the rest of your pulled quotes meaningless. For you ignore what happens to commanders who attempt to cover up such extremely rare instances. You fail to acknowledge or comprehend that in the cases brought forth in the article, those who committed the acts wound up in a stockade or brig for what will be decades.

Why has the Military Justice System rarely had to act on such cases? While you imply it is because they simply want no part of prosecuting military service people, the reality as put forth in the article is that they have rarely acted because there have been only rare cases where our service people have committed such acts.

Have civilians been killed at control points? I suspect that no one would claim they have not. But agin, context needs to be applied. A road check point in Anbar Province was undoubtably a place of frequent and daily attacks. Every day people who looked like civilians walked or drove up to the check points and detonated bombs. It becomes a choice between taking measures to eliminate insurgents or allowing the insurgents free reign to attack civilians and military forces with impunity because we are fearful of ever getting an identification of a civilian wrong.

That would be simply unrealistic. In terms of the Geneva Convention, such deaths are acknowledged as being unfortunate but exonerable. You can't put every check point in the middle of a flat open road- for obvious reasons.

Again thanks for neglecting the substance of the article and failing to discover through lack of your own comprehension that RAPE & MURDER are not policy of the military or the issue that the civilian deaths that have resulted in the majority of cases are directly attributable to combat conditions and general collapse of civilian law & norms of activity during the time which preceded the article being written in early 2007.

It could be best summed up as an after action assessment when the insurgency had largely vanished, civilian control returned, and combat force use had become comparitively rare.

AK

Thank you for acknowledging the obvious. We ARE better than anyone else. We don't RAPE & MURDER as you claimed to be our intentional and standing policy. Thank you for also pointing out the obvious in that leftists who get championed by the Western World liberals tend to be authoritarian thugs who play lip service to liberal ideals. Then again this is an American based discussion where many American liberals are totally ignorant of that fact & bringing it up simply further clouds the issue.

The only thing we seem to agree on is that invading other nations creates the imperative of us vs them, where the "them" are the ones who suffer for our best interests.

Posts: 6333 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KidB
Member
Member # 3016

 - posted      Profile for KidB   Email KidB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why has the Military Justice System rarely had to act on such cases? While you imply it is because they simply want no part of prosecuting military service people, the reality as put forth in the article is that they have rarely acted because there have been only rare cases where our service people have committed such acts.

Where does it say that in the article? Please quote me the passage where that contention is made, and I will issue an apologia without hesitation.

However, all I find is this:

quote:
Military commanders and courts have systematically referred to Haditha and other massacres as isolated cases. But the large number of such incidents suggests that the atrocities are systemic and have arisen from permissive rules of engagement and a broader culture of excessive violence, often condoned by commanders.


And then follows the section on cover-ups.

[ May 31, 2009, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: KidB ]

Posts: 1960 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The School of the Americas taught soldiers from nearly every country in the world that the military should be a tool of last resort controlled by civilian laws.
Um....This is a particularly twisted example. Do you need me to explain why?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aris Katsaris
Member
Member # 888

 - posted      Profile for Aris Katsaris   Email Aris Katsaris   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Redskullvw:
Thank you for acknowledging the obvious. We ARE better than anyone else.

I said you're better than the other superpowers -- by which I mean China and Russia.

Lots of countries that are better than you, but they don't happen to be superpowers, and they don't tend to invade other nations.

quote:
We don't RAPE & MURDER as you claimed to be our intentional and standing policy.
You have a policy of not caring about them, as long as they happen against your prisoners. How many prisoners dead or raped?

quote:
Thank you for also pointing out the obvious in that leftists who get championed by the Western World liberals tend to be authoritarian thugs who play lip service to liberal ideals.
You're mixing the meanings of the words "liberals" and "leftists" again, as Americans always tend to do, simply because American liberals happen to be on the left of the American conservatives.

Besides the left-wing liberals (socialdemocrats) and the right-wing conservatives (I suppose I'd call them "corporatists"), there's the left-wing conservatives (communists) and the right-wing liberals (libertarians).

The sin of the Democrats is they've not expunged their authoritarian-tolerant portion. They're many, but half of them are rotten.

But the even worse sin of the Republicans is they've expunged their *liberal* portion. No abortion rights, no same-sex marriage -- no habeas corpus, no privacy rights, massive war-spending bill. Torture in the interrogations, and foreign invasions.

Because one party that hasn't expunged the villains, and the other party that has kept ONLY the villains, I'd rather favour the former.

I'd love it if American politics was about two parties one of them with social-democrat and the other with libertarian positions.

Instead there's the half-rotten party dueling the full-rotten one.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1