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Author Topic: Ornery Thought Crime
Daruma28
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So OM, please, do tell, just what is grounds for censorship and suspension? I perfectly understand the suspension over the flame war with Ricky and I...

...but what was today all about?

I guess today's short lived ban had to do with me calling you a "hypocrite" than?

While I disagree with your recent actions, I must confess a certain admiration for your ban first, ask questions later style. [LOL]

I should have known the OM position had changed hands.

Until Funean posted in my now deleted "Ornery, Yeah Right" thread, I was unaware that you are in fact a new OM. I haven't logged on as frequently here as I used to, due to work, so I probably missed the thread/announcement of OM changing, whenever that was.

I did not know that, which was the basis for me calling you a hypocrite.

It was not an insult made gratuitously...I was under the assumption that you were the same OM since msquared stepped down.

If you were the same OM, than you would in fact certainly be a hypocrite of epic proportions for censoring me over "disrespecting the office."

That being said, I think, as the new OM, you have made your political bias abundantly clear in how you've handled me and those I've disagreed with.

As Red pointed out, you banned me for an entire week, whereas those that personally insulted me did not...and Ricky had an almost immediate reinstatement.

Hey, I'm no crybaby about this sort of thing (good for Ricky).

What I am not is a patsy or a snitch. If someone insults me, I will not back down, and I'm not going to hit the "report" button to summon the higher authority to arbitrate. I don't roll like that...never have, never will.

I will give as good as I get. If that results in banning/suspension, so be it.

That being said, I'm only going to clear up the following for the few of you that weighed in on my use of the term, mulatto:

Here's the Google definition of the word mulatto.

Not ONE definition of the word is in fact implying an insult or a racial slur. It's a factual term denoting the mixed race heritage of the person being described...nor did I intend THAT part of my statement to be an insult.

Interesting to see just how prescient Orwell was when he described "thought crime" and "new speak" in 1984...because whether ya'all realize it or not, many of you folks that had a knee jerk, critical reaction to my use of the term mulatto...you are definitely falling into the police-state, "thoughtcrime" mindset of the inhabitants of the dystopia that Orwell described.

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threads
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It's not thoughtcrime when you actually say it.

The phrasing of your comment strongly suggested that you were using mulatto as an insult and I think you're socially aware enough to know how that would come across. If it's used as an insult then it's racist.

I don't think the goal of your comment was to be racist but I'm not buying the whole "innocent me, I was just providing factual context" alibi.

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Funean
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Nah, Daruma never says stuff just to piss people off. [Wink]

(you know I adore you Daruma--against all good sense--but I have to say that if we were a couple I'd be sneaking Xanax into your food [Razz] )

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Daruma28
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Oh thread, I'm certainly not claiming "innocent me."

I'm sick of the modern cultural zeitgeist and fascination with race.

Post-racial America? Oh please, we, as a nation, are more segregated and compartmentalized than ever before. So people want to endlessly bow before the altar of THE MOST HISTORIC PRESIDENT EVER, because he's "BLACK." Sorry, as a mix raced mongrel myself, I'm gonna be the curmudgeon that takes some satisfaction in using the truth as a bludgeon. Sorry, he's not solely black. He's half black, half white. Mulatto. Deal with the truth, not some pretend status that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Fun - Xanax? If we were a couple, you'd know I'd have no need for the pharmaceutical industry's chemical straight jacket. A dram of Single Malt Scotch or Kentucky Straight Bourbon would do the trick just fine! [Big Grin]

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Funean
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Well, hence the sneaking. [Smile]

Okay, okay...Macallan or Laphroaig? I'm kind of over bourbon.

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OrneryMod
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Probably I could just have locked the thread - the options are still unfamiliar - which might be better as now I cannot remember what else you called me. But "hypocrite" stung, which was my fault as I should have realized you did not know there was a new moderator since the Bush days.

Otherwise liberals tend to think moderators favor conservatives, and vice versa. That is probably a fact of Ornery. And the ban was only to give me time to think. Please avoid saying anything which will make me have to consider such things again. I much prefer TommySama's giant flaming eagle, which should be declared an Ornery classic or something.

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Daruma28
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lol - Depends on the mood and the weather. I seem to like the smokier malts like Laphroaig in colder weather...

...based on the current weather here, I'd go for the Macallan! [Smile]

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Daruma28
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quote:
Otherwise liberals tend to think moderators favor conservatives, and vice versa. That is probably a fact of Ornery. And the ban was only to give me time to think. Please avoid saying anything which will make me have to consider such things again.
I'll try...but there are times where I'm in a thread, and it's literally 5 people dogpiling on me at once, I start typing furiously, and the last thing I worry about is whether or not I'm adhering to THE RULES.

[ June 29, 2009, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Time for the... Etremerator!
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threads
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Sorry, as a mix raced mongrel myself, I'm gonna be the curmudgeon that takes some satisfaction in using the truth as a bludgeon. Sorry, he's not solely black. He's half black, half white. Mulatto. Deal with the truth, not some pretend status that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

So when you said:
quote:
The face, voice, on-camera charisma has changed...but have the policies? war? Torture? Rendition? Violation of our Privacy? Civil Rights? Habeas Corpus? Will someone please tell me the substantial difference between all of these things for which the anti-war lefty's excoriated Bush for YEARS...and their telling silence NOW that their own mulatto socialist douche bag puppet is in office?
the term "mulatto" was not meant to be degrading but rather an implied comment on the status of race relations within the U.S? That's believable but also dumb since it just parrot's a relatively common conservative effort to attribute Obama's success to his race. There's a reason that he's there and Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson aren't.

edit: I realize this horse was dead a few posts ago so I'll stop now [Razz]

[ June 29, 2009, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: threads ]

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Redskullvw
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What the general opinion of the six of you- I guess i have lost count at this point- has until now been that as far as moderating goes, all of you have been exceptionally neutral. The problems have been fairly limited and often due to misunderstandings or people just loosing their tempers.

That said, if you did ban Daruma for saying "mulatto socialist douche bag puppet" then the criticisms against you indeed stand. I'm all for raising the level of discourse on Ornery- because it needs it. But in this instance if you are now suddenly going to limit any derogatory or insulting monikers for the President, you need to publicly and clearly state it. Because for the past 8 years, such a standard has not been in place. People who supported Bush just had to deal with the insults regarding what they called him or described him as being. We were told to either ignore it or laugh with everyone else since the majority was comfortable with insulting Bush as a matter of routine.

So again, if you banned Daruma for it, which is evidently at least 50% of the initial reasoning for the ban, it was an unfairly enforced ban because the prior status quo had been calling a sitting President nearly anything was not a grounds for banning. Putting aside the last few hours of drama, if you intend to enforce a level of civility that requires a level of civility and peaceful respect for whomever holds a high office, thereby making routine references to the individual such as "chimp" "asshat" and whatever Funean's favorite insult was- then you should post such a change on the Rules thread.

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Clark
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1: Was there an announcement of a new OrneryMod? I don't have a real problem with the Mod's anonymity, but I really think there ought to be a policy of announcing when a change is made. Someone new is obviously going to act somewhat differently than whatever Mod we'd all grown accustomed to over the past tenure. Seems like an announcement in the rules thread would be appropriate.

2: It wasn't until I read this thread that I was sure we had a new Mod, but it sure seemed obvious from the new Mod's style and volume of writing. I haven't decided yet who I think it is, but there's no chance these two Mods could pass for the same person.

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Funean
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Hey! I never wasted "fungal assnugget" on Dubya. [Wink]
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Redskullvw
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That would be the insult.
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Funean
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I couldn't disappoint you. [Smile]
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Wayward Son
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One thing we should all keep in mind is that we are guests here at Ornery. This is Orson Scott Card's site. He owns it, and allows us to use it.

It doesn't really matter what we feel is right, just, or fair. Here we play by his rules, and we respect them. We can politely ask if they can be changed, or to be clarified (as Daruma has basically asked), but we don't make them or try to impose our rules. Guests don't do that.

If we don't like the rules, we are free to leave and find somewhere else to hang out.

Being pissy about the rules is not showing Mr. Card respect. Even if we feel we are being treated unfairly, it would be better to find out how we can improve our own behavior at his site than to worry about being picked on.

We are guest here. Let's act the way we'd want guests to act at our own places.

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EDanaII
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I've thrown all my guests out...
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TommySama
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Wayward, I do think it would be nice if the new Mod could outline his or her new rules and what is to be expected of us - because it has obviously changed.
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kenmeer livermaile
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More fun to break rules by mystery, I say.

TommySam wanting to know the 8rules*? Now I DO fear for ornery.

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scouser1
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[LOL]
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Jordan
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Words are generally added to insults to add further insult; so when you mention someone's race, gender, sexuality, age, nationality or any other attribute in this context, the obvious implication is that their status in this respect is considered to be undesirable.

In other words, the wise man refrains from the appearance of evil by not introducing, mid-obloquy, an absolutely irrelevant but politically-charged characteristic.

[ June 30, 2009, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: Jordan ]

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JoshuaD
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quote:
Originally posted by OrneryMod:
But "hypocrite" stung,

Get over it. You don't hold your position to get revenge for insults against yourself, you hold it to keep this forum from sliding into the abyss that is the rest of the internet.

You've been dealt a bad hand. We've lost a handful of our best posters recently, and the level has been gradually sliding here since msquared gave up his position. We're certainly at an all-time low.

I encourage you to look for the root causes of the problem and extirpate them. I don't think anyone on this forum would suggest Daruma's a problem here, so spare us the personal revenge and use your powers to help us, or step down.

Welcome to Ornery; you are wrong. [Wink]

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PSRT
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"I don't think anyone on this forum would suggest Daruma's a problem here"

Really? I'd say daruma violates the rules in a higher percentage of his posts than anyone else posting actively over the last couple months. The thread daruma was suspended initially for was a prime example. And he definetely leveled personal attacks in his first post back from that suspension.

I said it in that (now deleted thread): Do remember we got notified the mod would be cracking down on rule breaking.

[ June 30, 2009, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: PSRT ]

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Post-racial America? Oh please, we, as a nation, are more segregated and compartmentalized than ever before.

More so than before the Civil War? More so than during the Jim Crow laws? I find that hard to believe.

Anyway, I looked for some statistical data:
"http://dating.lovetoknow.com/Statistics_on_Interracial_Relationships"

In 1970 there were only 65,000 marriages involving African-Americans and Whites. By 2005, that number had grown to 422,000.

So, you just seem to be factually wrong here (and easily proven to be so), despite your claims on how segregated and compartmentalized the American nation supposedly is now compared to the past.

quote:
Sorry, he's not solely black. He's half black, half white.
He's half-African, half-white American. But you do know that "black people" in America aren't of full African descent either, right?

Being of half-African descent, he probably still has more African blood in him than most African-Americans in the United States.

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TommySama
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"Welcome to Ornery; you are wrong. [Wink] "

So banned.

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Jordan
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quote:
PSRT:
I'd say daruma violates the rules in a higher percentage of his posts than anyone else posting actively over the last couple months.

You are possibly right. He is also probably the target of more derision than almost anyone else here, too, so assuming that he is human, this isn't entirely unexpected.

Daruma holds unpopular views that he expounds upon sarcastically and authoritatively, and I disagree with him about almost everything substantial; nevertheless, he is a lovable kook, a funny and decent person, and I like having him around.

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PSRT
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Even when he starts topics, his posts seem to me to violate the rules that are listed on the front page. I think if the message from the Cards is to "clean up our act," a reasonable place to start cleaning is with Daruma. That doesn't mean there are not other people who violate the rules. Its that he almost always violates the rules.

The other thing, of course, is that you shouldn't have to be an insider to understand that someone who is violating the rules is allowed to get away with it because he's a "lovable kook." If Daruma is allowed to violate the rules, then when I join, I would expect that I could post in the fashion he does, and not face consequences.

I'm not saying he should be banned. I'm saying that, from my perspective having joined only a couple months ago, Daruma is "part of the problem", that the Cards told the moderator to clean up, contrary to what Joshua suggested.

[ June 30, 2009, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: PSRT ]

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Daruma28
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Oh really PSRT? Show me one topic I started the violates the rules listed on the front page.
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Daruma28
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I know I've broken the rules with regards to personal insults and mockery...but I don't think I've ever started a thread, or jumped in on somebody else's thread and immediately got into the insults and such.

Typically, I'll throw caution to the wind when I'm getting dog piled by multiple posters at the same time...which happens a lot. It gets difficult when I'm trying to respond to 6 posters at the same time, and one or more of 'em are lobbing the insults and mockery my way... [Cool]

If people keep it civil with me, I usually return the courtesy...but if people start hitting below the belt, I'm more than happy to play that game to.

[ June 30, 2009, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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hobsen
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Second Jordan's opinion, with the exception of the term "kook," which could be thought insulting. And dogpiling is a problem for those who hold controversial opinions which few on Ornery support.
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JoshuaD
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Daruma: It does seem that when you adopted your new political outlook a few years ago your tone changed a bit. I think you are far from the most offensive member on the board, and I think your unique outlook is something we should value, but I do think it would be appropriate to comport yourself at all times as you wish everyone else would, especially considering the state of the forums and the new OrneryMod's request.
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Daruma28
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Hey, I'm not making any excuses...breaking the rules is breaking the rules.

I merely point out that I generally play by the rules until I get "in the heat of the battle" and I'm typically outnumbered.

hob - I'm not insulted by the term "kook." LOL

I make no claims to sanity...I wear my tinfoil hat proudly! [Cool]

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kenmeer livermaile
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D: Warsaw Pact used to do that "outnumbered" thing too. You don;t have to answer all charges. If you take on too many in a brawl and lose your cool, that's your problem, one you chose for yourself.

Which is fine with me.

And what kind of tinfoil is that? All I see are a buncha tropical bird feathers and something like cowrie shells.

Love the conch, BTW. Tinfoil hats and web sites ain;t **** for starting kooky conspiracy theories compared to a gawddam CONCH!

Citizens of Neptunia, People of Atlantis! The Seal has been broken! The End Times are at hand! The Fed is rising to remove the secret sacred heart of civilization! If you value your lives, your wives, your sacred honor, and your SPAM stash, join with me and FIGHT THE EVIL!

The fate of civilization hangs in the balance.

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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Oh really PSRT? Show me one topic I started the violates the rules listed on the front page.

I just read the "Forum Rules" thread, and you're so totally screwed dude. Then again, so am I. And pretty much everyone else in Ornery is too. I've never read such a schmaltzy bunch of flag-waving jingoism masquerading as forum rules before in my life [Smile]
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kenmeer livermaile
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All hail Rallan!
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Mormegil
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Aw, man, the other thread got deleted and I never got a chance to see if the OrneryMod replied to my calling him a coward. How did the thread end? I probably got ignored anyway, so it doesn't matter.
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mormegil:
Aw, man, the other thread got deleted and I never got a chance to see if the OrneryMod replied to my calling him a coward. How did the thread end? I probably got ignored anyway, so it doesn't matter.

What makes you think OM is a HE? [Eek!]
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Mormegil
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I don't, it's just an old-fashioned occasional quirk, using the masculine personal pronoun for the neuter pronoun the English language lacks.

Male or female, the OrneryMod is a wussy little craven coward. I hadn't realized we had a new mod, but that explains a lot. I didn't like the previous cowardly mods either, but at least they wrote in a mod-like way.

The new mod writes in a personal style that seems more like a poster, not a mod. It makes whatever he/she/it does seem even more petty or unaccountable-abuse-of-power-like.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Nothing is pettier than abusing a poor and lowly mod. The very fact they got scammed into taking on the job is evidence they're not really up to it.

Pat 'em on the head, feed some ego meat on occasion, and ignore the wee darlins'.

They can't help themselves.

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kenmeer livermaile
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P.S. A Mod who won't abuse its power isn't worthy of modding.
Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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