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Author Topic: Finally - something we all can agree on.
sfallmann
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/vp/32378192#32378192

He brings a loaded gun to a townhall with the president.

This guy is stupid mother f'er.
What a dumbass!

How is he on tv and not detained by the secret service is beyond me.

I look forward to the creative ways the rest of you will find to disparage him.

Please don't disappoint me!

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scifibum
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Sounds like he was within his rights? I'm sure the secret service had him in their sights at least part of the time. I tend to admire his guts, if not his smarts.
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TommySama
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I assumed it was a political stunt/threat.
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Lina Inverse
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I guess he was allowed to... but wow, that's really scary [Frown]
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RickyB
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But we're the brownshirts. OK.
(sorry to rain on the intended bipartisan nature of the thread).

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sfallmann
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
But we're the brownshirts. OK.
(sorry to rain on the intended bipartisan nature of the thread).

That's ok. There's always got to be at least one a**hole in the crowd.
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RickyB
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At your service, bubba.
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by sfallmann:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/vp/32378192#32378192

He brings a loaded gun to a townhall with the president.

This guy is stupid mother f'er.
What a dumbass!


Who does he think he is? An American citizen exercising his 2nd Amendment rights? What a stupid mother f'er!

Doesn't he know the constitution is no longer relevant? [LOL]

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Lina Inverse
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Did you miss the part where nobody tried to take it away from him?
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TommySama
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Daruma, its sort of like farting while at dinner with your fiance's parents. Except more threatening (... unless its a really powerful fart).
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cherrypoptart
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I'm not sure this is the one that we can all agree on.

I don't see a big problem with it. How many would be assassins open carry their weapon?

It's not the one who has it legally and on his hip that you usually have to worry about.

Maybe I'm the only one who sometimes has a little daydream that features me legally carrying a loaded, concealed handgun while sitting down and having a coversation with the President, shaking hands after a polite discussion, and then going on my way without incident.

And the President knowing I have the gun before and during the meeting and not having a big problem with it. I know. Just a dream.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
I'm not sure this is the one that we can all agree on.

I don't see a big problem with it. How many would be assassins open carry their weapon?

It's not the one who has it legally and on his hip that you usually have to worry about.

Maybe I'm the only one who sometimes has a little daydream that features me legally carrying a loaded, concealed handgun while sitting down and having a coversation with the President, shaking hands after a polite discussion, and then going on my way without incident.

And the President knowing I have the gun before and during the meeting and not having a big problem with it. I know. Just a dream.

I'm not sure what your daydream fantasy would prove (since I presume there is some purpose to this fantasy). Nobody is worried about a responsible person handling a weapon in vicinity of the president - people worry about a possible nutjob. How long do you suspect the average president would survive if guns were permitted at all his public appearances? Does your daydream include having to go through rigorous psych screenings before your meeting?

Are you serious when you say "it's not the one who has it legally and on his hip you have to worry about"? After all, a person could do everything "legally" right up until the instant he pulls and fires, and nobody could possibly stop him.

[ August 11, 2009, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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Daruma28
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quote:
Are you serious when you say "it's not the one who has it legally and on his hip you have to worry about"? After all, a person could do everything "legally" right up until the instant he pulls and fires, and nobody could possibly stop him.
Are you serious when you say "it's not the one who drives legally and on the road you have to worry about"? After all, a person could do everything "legally" right up until the instant he accelerates towards the pedestrians in the crosswalk, and nobody could possibly stop him!
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TommySama
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"I'm not sure this is the one that we can all agree on."

I disagree.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Maybe I'm the only one who sometimes has a little daydream that features me legally carrying a loaded, concealed handgun while sitting down and having a coversation with the President, shaking hands after a polite discussion, and then going on my way without incident.
You daydream about this? Why?
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edgmatt
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William Kostric, who seems to be a down to earth guy and at least somewhat informed, was able to say what he wanted to say on a national front because of the gun. I don't know if that was his intention, but I do know that the media has just created an incentive to start bringing guns to televised events.
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KnightEnder
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Really, you people have no problem with a guy walking around in public with a gun on his hip that is not a police officer? That's probably cause y'all don't live in Texas. No way would I want these ******* rednecks, of which I am one, walking around with a gun. It's a from of intimidation.

And to get back to this discussion, whatever it is about, he was carrying a sign saying "It's Time that the Tree of Liberty was Watered." Everybody knows that is in reference to Jefferson's quote "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the BLOOD of tyrants and patriots." Yeah, there's NOTHING at all wrong with this *******.

Okay, sfallmann, Let's dance!

KE

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hobsen
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From the Steve Cohen health care event in Memphis Tennessee:

"Randy Wade is to be complimented as well; he arranged for security. There were actually idiots who brought guns (legally, it seems they had carry permits, but why did they feel they needed them?). Yes, you read that right, and Randy made them all check in with the Sheriff's Deputies on hand."

At an event held by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) last week, the threat of violence led her aides to call the police after one attendee dropped a gun.

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cherrypoptart
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As for what my little fantasy might prove and what the point of it is, it came to me that it is exactly this:

It would mean that not only could the politicians trust their safety to the people, but since nothing happened, it would also mean that the people deserved that trust.

Yes, just a fantasy.

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hobsen
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quote:
A libertarian activist in Albuquerque crossed a line on Friday when he advocated physical violence against members of left-leaning groups at town hall meetings on health-care reform.

I’m not giving the guy the publicity of linking to his page or publishing his name, but I will tell you that he posted messages on Twitter stating that people should use “retaliation… be it verbal or physical” against members of ACORN and the Service Employees International Union if they decide to attend or disrupt town-hall meetings and should “hurt them. Badly.”

He even advocated that people take advantage of their “license to carry.”

For more details,
quote:
an anti-health care reform protester in New Mexico named Scott Oskay is calling on his hundreds of online followers to bring firearms to town halls, and to 'badly hurt' SEIU and ACORN counter protesters...
This particular story rather collapsed:
quote:
However, Scott Oskay, in a telephone interview this evening, admitted he went overboard with his tweets and does not really want to see violence.


[ August 12, 2009, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: hobsen ]

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edgmatt
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And that is the other side of the coin that makes people want to ban guns. Every single issue or event has some bad side, sometimes very insignificant, sometimes much more so. So, this crazy people wanting to cause violence, and possibly with guns, is certainly the "bad side" of having the right to bear arms. Is it worth giving up all the positive things that having this right gives to prevent the above mentioned incidents from happening?

On a side note, I very much dislike how common it has become to describe any one who carries a gun in public as a red neck.

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tonylovern
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there comes a time in life where you have to take off the safety helmet and kneepads and accept that the world is not, and hopefully will never be, a completely safe place.

i'm not going to go on a rant about retaining the ability to violently rebel against an unjust government.

i'll simply say that while you may try to hide away from the big, bad, dangerous world, you will never be able to cheat death or provide absolute safety for your loved ones.

i still support your right to try, i wont claim that any responsible person isn't entitled to thier views. at the same time, this man didnt do anything wrong. he's just as entitled to his views, and all applicable laws support him.

he exercised a constitutional right, and he quoted a historic figure. who among us hasn't done both of those things on this very board?

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DonaldD
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There's legal, and then there's stupid. The man was certainly acting within his rights - and he did not himself pose any threat.

However... his actions have just made it a whole lot more difficult and expensive to protect the president. My guess is that the secret service knew pretty much everything about him in short order, including which sock he puts on first. But what about the next 10 thousand people who try it?

Add to that the facts that you've got the first black president, and that some unknown number of racists are bat-sh1t crazy over that fact.

At any rate, as a political stunt, it failed. Nobody tried to take his gun from his cold, dead hand. Even in the presence of the president. In this case, the medium was the message, and whatever he had to say about healthcare was lost in the bakground (and foreground noise) that his gun made. And look: he proved that the president supports the second amendment; I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim that was NOT what he wanted out of his actions, to validate the president's constitutional bona fides.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Is it worth giving up all the positive things that having this right gives to prevent the above mentioned incidents from happening?
I remain unconvinced that this "right" gives us anything meaningful.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
Really, you people have no problem with a guy walking around in public with a gun on his hip that is not a police officer? That's probably cause y'all don't live in Texas. No way would I want these ******* rednecks, of which I am one, walking around with a gun. It's a from of intimidation.

So is calling people "******* rednecks". However, insulting people to intimidate them is not near as easy to do when they're armed. Walking around with a gun is a form of intimidation to you.
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KnightEnder
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Yeah, it's amazing how brave pussies get when they have a gun or are on the web. Walking into a Burger King or a McDonald's with a gun in plain sight is intimidating to everyone. Just ask the people of Killeen, TX.

KE

[ August 12, 2009, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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KnightEnder
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Edg, if you are talking about my statement I wasn't calling anyone that carried a gun a redneck I was just pointing out that here in Texas there are a bunch of rednecks and I wouldn't want to be anyplace with them carrying guns, especially not with my family or anyone's family around.

KE

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Lobo
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So, after the contest between KE and G2, whose is bigger?
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KnightEnder
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I'm pretty sure G2 is a bigger dick.

Sounds like you want to get in on the contest, Lobo?

I think the next person that makes this lame statement aught to have the guts to whip it out, photo it with his cell phone and send it to Ken. I'm sure Ken can figure some way to get it on the Web.

Basically what you are saying is G2 and I are arguing? Geez, that's unheard of here on Ornery? Oh, and the argument got personal, well I'll point out that G2 started that, but even that isn't rare here, and it certainly doesn't mean he wants a dick measuring contest. Even if we were to meet face to face and got to settle this honorably, after I took the gun away from G2, it would still be about him bringing my family into the argument and insulting me, not about who is the bigger man. Some of y'alls obsession with penis size is just creepy.

Size ain't everything, Lobo.

KE

[ August 12, 2009, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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edgmatt
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quote:
Really, you people have no problem with a guy walking around in public with a gun on his hip that is not a police officer? -- No way would I want these ******* rednecks, of which I am one, walking around with a gun.
So how is anyone reading this supposed to think anything other than you believe that a person walking around with a gun who is not a police officer, is a red-neck? Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but how would anyone know that? If you don't want to be misunderstood, type a little less angrily and a little more carefully.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by edgmatt:
quote:
Really, you people have no problem with a guy walking around in public with a gun on his hip that is not a police officer? -- No way would I want these ******* rednecks, of which I am one, walking around with a gun.
So how is anyone reading this supposed to think anything other than you believe that a person walking around with a gun who is not a police officer, is a red-neck? Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but how would anyone know that? If you don't want to be misunderstood, type a little less angrily and a little more carefully.
Because he pretty clearly indicated that he was using the term to refer to the general population of Texas earlier in the same post.

The question is more wheather it's fair to call the average Texan a redneck.

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DonaldD
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quote:
So how is anyone reading this supposed to think anything other than you believe that a person walking around with a gun who is not a police officer, is a red-neck?
Well, you could read what he wrote in the very sentence he wrote: "No way would I want these ******* rednecks, of which I am one, walking around with a gun". This statement makes it very clear that KE imagines situations where rednecks could be walking around without guns. But if walking around with guns actually makes them rednecks, that makes it impossible to be a redneck without walking around wearing a gun - which is internally inconsistent with his initial statement.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:

Basically what you are saying is G2 and I are arguing? Geez, that's unheard of here on Ornery? Oh, and the argument got personal, well I'll point out that G2 started that, but even that isn't rare here, and it certainly doesn't mean he wants a dick measuring contest. Even if we were to meet face to face and got to settle this honorably, after I took the gun away from G2, it would still be about him bringing my family into the argument and insulting me, not about who is the bigger man.

Huh, whaddaya know, I didn't realize we were arguing. I was just pointing out that you're using intimidation to complain about intimidation. I don't even know how that's an insult or a personal attack other than it might have embarrassed you a little bit to get caught out on it. Bringing this up to a level of threatening violence is a little harsh don't you think? Talk about trying intimidation tactics ...
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KnightEnder
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You've never made a post that wasn't an argument. And A) The fact that you equate "words" and "guns" as forms of intimidation is probably why you don't understand the problem with people carrying firearms openly in public. B) In Texas ****ing Redneck is not an insult. Did you notice I included myself in that group. (I don't remember where you said you were from but I'm sure it wasn't Texas?) I don't think I should be carrying a gun in public either. Some jerk off might make a crack about my wife and instead of just beating the crap out of him I might lose my temper and shoot him. Nobody wants the latter.

KE

[ August 12, 2009, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
You've never made a post that wasn't an argument.

Sure I have, many times.


quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
And A) The fact that you equate "words" and "guns" as forms of intimidation is probably why you don't understand the problem with people carrying firearms openly in public.

Not just words, you used vulgarity coupled with a slur. It's intentionally confrontational, designed to project a threat on the recipient of your verbal assault.


quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
B) In Texas ****ing Redneck is not an insult. Did you notice I included myself in that group. (I don't remember where you said you were from but I'm sure it wasn't Texas?)

Really? Try it out, go up to someone that you don't know and call them a ****ing Redneck. Try it on you boss in your next meeting too. Maybe lay a "****ing Redneck" on a few coworkers or the checkout guy at the grocery store. Just drop it on them, they'll love it right? Sure they will!

It may not be an insult in certain contexts (like among your drinking buddies) but it will be one in most others. Fortunately, you don't have to take my word for it; go out and try a real world experiment. Film it for YouTube for us, show us how it works out. Put your theory to the test.


quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
I don't think I should be carrying a gun in public either. Some jerk off might make a crack about my wife and instead of just beating the crap out of him I might lose my temper and shoot him. Nobody wants the latter.

You're right, if you got anger management issues it's not a good idea for you. But if you tried to beat the crap out someone for calling your wife something they did not think was an insult (like ****ing Redneck), wouldn't it be nice if they could help you check that anger issue by backing you off until you cool down? Or should they just take a beating form you because you *thought* your wife was insulted?

[ August 12, 2009, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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tonylovern
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i dont see how the man could be considered stupid. unless you mean wearing a yellow t-shirt on national television.

there were apparently no negative repurcussions of his actions.

some are claiming that his point was drowned out by the fact that he was carrying a gun. it seems to me that the guy had a bunch of points to make, and made as many as he could in the time allotted. protecting his right to carry a gun was one of his points. having that point in the fore did nothing to damage his case.

i reject and resent the claim that only police officers can carry guns safely. in my experience police officers are all mentally unstable.

every cop i've ever met has had some kind of athourity complex. if they dont feel like they deserve more respect than the average human, they feel like they have the right to tell other people how to live. some have even felt that they had the right to act as judge and jury, be picking and choosing which crimes they want to enforce.

being a police officer, attracts people like this. people who feel like they need to be in charge of every situation.

why should we trust these people to be the only ones allowed to carry guns? how do we protect ourselves from these people? and why on earth would we discount all of the private security personel with concealed carry permits?

why do private citizens have less of a right to protect themselves, than government agents?

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by tonylovern:
in my experience police officers are all mentally unstable.

Not sure what law enforcement you're dealing with but that's far from accurate. I deal with a lot of law enforcement, mental instability is weeded out whenever it occurs.


quote:
Originally posted by tonylovern:
being a police officer, attracts people like this. people who feel like they need to be in charge of every situation.

In my experience with a number of levels of law enforcement, being a police officer *creates* people like this. They develop a need to control the situation because they routinely deal with people that are dangerous, under the influence or just plain crazy. Controlling the situation keeps the officer and the suspect safe.


quote:
Originally posted by tonylovern:
why should we trust these people to be the only ones allowed to carry guns? how do we protect ourselves from these people? and why on earth would we discount all of the private security personel with concealed carry permits?

I'm with you here. I routinely carry a weapon, have for years and it's been quite a long time since I shot anyone. I fully support the 2nd amendment however I'd never take my weapon into a presidential meeting.
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Athelstan
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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Does this phrase have less meaning if you believe the one chance Thomas Jefferson got to act out his famous quote he choose not to. I would probably have run away if an army was approaching my house but then I’m not imploring other men to die for a cause. He does have a quote for self-preservation though. The exact date of his leaving office as Governor of Virginia is debatable but he did leave his post in a time of danger. His enemies did accuse him of cowardice so what better way to answer them and live up to his famous quote than to join the Revolutionary Army. Yorktown was just a few months away but, even so, after that battle the British still had a sizeable army in America. Instead between the years 1781 and 1783 he seems to spend the time at home reading his books. Perhaps the words are more important than the man writing them.

I liked the bit about Massachusetts being a Socialist State. Obviously, being British, I don’t understand the gun issue in the US but I can say I have managed to live my long life safely and pleasantly without ever touching a firearm. Bully for me.

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tonylovern
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i've dealt with cops in ohio, indiana, florida, and south carolina. while thats far from being a complete sample, it has been enough to convince me. while it may not reflect 100% of all police, it does represent 100% of all police i've dealt with. like any blanket statement, there are bound to be exceptions.

again, the only evidence i have is anecdotal. i have a cousin who's a police officer. he has always been a napoleanic douchebag. being a cop has only reinforced already present behavior.

i dont own any guns. while i've had several pointed at me, the largest living thing i've ever shot at was a pumpkin. given that guns have been used against me more often than i've ever used them for self defense, you might think i would be against private ownership.

however. i'm not worried about individuals using guns against me. an individual can be reasoned with. one gun can be disarmed. i am much more afraid of a swarm of government agents doing whatever they like, as they have proven they are wont to do, and a populace unable to resist.

this is where i stop. i'm about 30 seconds away from an incoherent rant calling for armed insurrection.

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Viking_Longship
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As a southern man I'd say the majority of us, regarldless of race, either are rednecks or have redneck tendencies. Whether we are ******rednecks is largely dependent on or ommod or our luck depending on how you apply ****

There are many public venues where guns are not allowed to be carried by civillians, aiports, schools, courthouses, so 2nd amendment or no you may be allowed to own guns but that doesn't mean we really let you carry one all the time.

Despite all the "slipery slope arguments" we have been able to manage the first amendment in a way where we haven't gone from ÿou can't shout fire in a crowded theatre"to ÿou can't shout in a crowded theatre" We can and do manage situation specific restrictions on the 2nd amendment without rounding up all the guns.

Carrying a handgun at an event where you know there there will be police and the secret service is not prudent particularly after people have been getting death threats on this issue.

I am afraid sooner or later someone is going to pull a trigger at one of these events (let's get angry people together in closed spaces in the hottest month! the townhalls are such a great idea) And the kind of backlash that will result will be much worse than having to put up with leaving the gun at home.

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