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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » more fun with the police. (Page 2)

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Author Topic: more fun with the police.
tonylovern
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quote:
OK, yeah I get it. You hate the police with the passion of a thousand burning suns.
no, that would be me.
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PSRT
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quote:
K, yeah I get it. You hate the police with the passion of a thousand burning suns.
No, I'm asking if you think the behavior this police officer exhibited and are defending, would be defensible in the reverse situation.
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tonylovern
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people that sense threat in common everyday situations are paranoid. paranoid people shouldn't carry guns.
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The Drake
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Is it any surprise how LOATHED Internal affairs officers are by regular officers? Only one reason for this - regular officers know they're regularly over the line and don't like being caught.

Here's a nice example:

thug cop assaults cameraman for filming across the street

Note the spokesman, who doesn't immediately repudiate the officer's actions in any way. In fact, they're going to continue the case against the photographer! There's no argument here that the cameraman was posing a threat - he got "mouthy" and the cop decided to shut his smart-ass mouth.

Utah taser victim wins settlement

Jon Gardner had to wait for a civil case to hold this cop responsible. The police investigating their own hardly ever admit any wrongdoing. In this case:

quote:
Apparently prosecutors in Tooele County looked at the case and admitted that Massey had not actually violated any law. He was pulled over while driving legally. So the cop was wrong from the start. Massey was correct when he tried to showed the police officer that the officer was wrong to ticket him. Because Massey disagreed with the police officer he was subjected to the painful, and potentially lethal, use of the cops favorite new toy, the taser.

A few days after prosecutors admitted that Massey had not done anything illegal the State of Utah decided to settle the case. They paid Massey attorney’s fees plus $40,000. Yet, and this incredible, they settled while still contending that the thug in uniform was in the right to do what he did. They say they can understand people were upset but said it was “a close case”.

Nothing will reign in this, and other, abusive cops. They *heart* domination, and whenever anyone tries to disagree with them, even when being respectful and calm, they get a hankering for a beat-down.

If you can stand more:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CopsOutofControl

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cherrypoptart
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I guess I must be the luckiest guy in the world. Maybe I'll go and buy myself a lotto ticket.

The reason is I've gone through life and never had a major problem with cops. I'm polite and so are they. There was this one time when I was coming out of a convenience store as a cop was going in and I said good morning and he didn't reply. That might be considered rude. But if he was going in to get his first coffee of the day, I guess I can understand. And let it go. This time.

------------------------------------------

It's also predictable for someone to jump in here and say to all the police bashers out there that if you think you can do better, please do. That's a boring thing to say though so I'm not going to say it.

Of course, no one has ever taken up that offer. I wonder why...

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tonylovern
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i dont have the requisite personality traits to be a cop.

i'm sure you do though. why dont you sign up and prove to all of us how decent and noble they really are?

[ August 17, 2009, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: tonylovern ]

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TCB
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The videos Drake posted clearly show police officers violently attacking citizens who are lawfully going about their business. And yet other police and the government will certainly bend over backward to protect them from any consequences.

Cops were into the "stop snitching" movement decades before drug gangs picked up on it. Our recourse as citizens? More cameras, more videos, more recordings. It's the only way light has ever been shed on police brutality.

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cherrypoptart
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I wouldn't be a cop for the same reason I'd think long and hard before going back into the military again, and recommend all of my family members do the same. I'm sad to say it, but I don't think the citizens of America deserve the sacrfice our police and military make for us. From most of the comments on this thread, it should be perfectly obvious that there are plenty of people who don't seem to appreciate those sacrifices, and if the people do appreciate it they sure have a strange way of expressing that appreciation.

Now to be sure there are plenty of citizens who show their appreciation, just not enough when I run the numbers and weigh the scales to make it worth my while. It's not going to surprise me the way things are going when we start to get the military and the police force we deserve, and by we I don't mean me. I mean the cop haters.

It might be a better country if we wanted to hold criminals to account as much as we do the cops, but I suppose a lot of people don't see much distinction between the two.

It's a testament to the power and persuasiveness of the new administration that they have so many people questioning their own patriotism. I'm sure I've mentioned the irony before.

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Viking_Longship
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Cherry take the pity party elsewhere. This is not 1969, Americans love our armed forces in a way we love NO other branch of the government.

As to law enforcement, many of us love good cops and hate bad cops. THat's the burden that comes with getting to speed, intimidate and wield and openly bear arms. Like spidey learned, with great power comes great responsibility.

Personally the police have been politie, or at least not abusive to me. However I also had the Chief of the Huntington Police Department tell me that while the crazy woman who was leaving death threats was breaking the law he just didn't have the resources to do anything about it, wasn't worried about because he knew she was only making noise, and if happened to see her would have a word with her.

And Cherry, thanks to guys like you, it would be ridiculously easy for her to get hold of a handgun (the most cowardly weapon ever invented)Also, thanks to guys like you, the state of West Virginia didn't have the tax revenue to house her even though she was declared to be insane.

You want to make the lives of police easier Cherry? Change your stance on handguns. That would help them a lot. Change your stance on taxes so there are more of them, the nuts can be removed and the good ones can be rotated off regularly. Get them the revenue that would allow them to actually serve and protect everybody, not the just the middle class and wealthy. Relax the drug laws so that the gangsters weren't turning every housing project in america into a no-man's land.

People just like you are making the lives of police way harder than the tonyloverns of the world are by simply coming on a public forum and grumbling about them.

That would be real appreciation, not just saying good morning.

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TommySama
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quote:
It's not going to surprise me the way things are going when we start to get the military and the police force we deserve
You think that the awful police force will come as a result of us not respecting the police force enough? Seriously? The police force has sucked for a long time. Partly the fault of the institutions, mostly the fault of the federal government, and definitely a certain amount of the blame can be laid on the individual officers.

[ August 18, 2009, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by The Drake:
Is it any surprise how LOATHED Internal affairs officers are by regular officers? Only one reason for this - regular officers know they're regularly over the line and don't like being caught.

Here's a nice example:

Now, post links to the 1000's of police/citizen interactions that occur every day where the police are courteous, respectful and professional.
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PSRT
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You still haven't answered my question, G2: You are defending the bad actions of this police officer on the grounds that the victim could have attacked the police officer. Would you defend someone a police officer pulled over if she attacked the police officer on the grounds that the police officer might have attacked her first? After all, we KNOW the police officer is armed, while the police officer did not know whether this woman was armed.
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cherrypoptart
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> TommySama

> You think that the awful police force will come as a result of us not respecting the police force enough?

No, that wasn't my point. I was put to the question, which was basically if I love the police so much why don't I join them, and this was after I asked why don't the people who hate the cops so much join them to make them better.

One reason I would think long and hard before joining the police is the very ingratitude I see on display here. Put my life on the line for people who basically would like nothing more than to spit in my face? Thank you but I'll pass.

So what does that say about the men and women who do join the ranks of law enforcement?

Well, in my book one thing it says about them is that they are better men and women than me. And for that I salute them. I also pray for their saftey, and am very grateful for all the bad people they take off of our streets. I haven't had any bad experiences with cops, but I have had some bad ones with criminals. At least I can tell the two apart.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
You still haven't answered my question, G2: You are defending the bad actions of this police officer on the grounds that the victim could have attacked the police officer.

No, I am most certainly *not* defending this police officer and I made that clear in my original post. I am simply saying we should wait for the the official investigation to occur, that the tape alone is insufficient for us to jump to the conclusion everyone is jumping to.

quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
Would you defend someone a police officer pulled over if she attacked the police officer on the grounds that the police officer might have attacked her first? After all, we KNOW the police officer is armed, while the police officer did not know whether this woman was armed.

Oh yeah, I think you should go out right now and throw down on the first police officer you see. After all, you KNOW the police officer is armed and he cannot be up to anything except "bad actions".
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PSRT
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quote:
No, I am most certainly *not* defending this police officer and I made that clear in my original post. I am simply saying we should wait for the the official investigation to occur, that the tape alone is insufficient for us to jump to the conclusion everyone is jumping to.
Leeway, then, if you don't like "defense." What I am wondering is, would you give the same leeway to, say, joshcrow if the tape showed the reverse situation.

quote:
Oh yeah, I think you should go out right now and throw down on the first police officer you see. After all, you KNOW the police officer is armed and he cannot be up to anything except "bad actions".
My point is actually the opposite. Not that it is ok for me to throw down with a police officer, but that it is not ok for a police officer to throw down with someone he pulls over, and it is not ok to give extra leeway to a police officer compared to non-police officers.

[ August 18, 2009, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: PSRT ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
No, I am most certainly *not* defending this police officer and I made that clear in my original post. I am simply saying we should wait for the the official investigation to occur, that the tape alone is insufficient for us to jump to the conclusion everyone is jumping to.
Leeway, then, if you don't like "defense." What I am wondering is, would you give the same leeway to, say, joshcrow if the tape showed the reverse situation.
There is no reverse situation here. You're trying to create some esoteric hypothetical that you could extend into police are evil bullies that deserve to be taken down at the alleged perpetrators whim.


quote:
Originally posted by PSRT:
quote:
Oh yeah, I think you should go out right now and throw down on the first police officer you see. After all, you KNOW the police officer is armed and he cannot be up to anything except "bad actions".
My point is actually the opposite. Not that it is ok for me to throw down with a police officer, but that it is not ok for a police officer to throw down with someone he pulls over, and it is not ok to give extra leeway to a police officer compared to non-police officers.
It's not ok for a police officer to throw down with someone he pulls over, don't try to minimize the issue. It's a different story if that person gets out of his car and advances on the officer. It gets very different if that person refuses to follow direction and continues to advance.

Letting the investigation do its thing is not leeway either. If the officer is out of line, throw the book at him. Waiting until all the facts are in is, IMHO, reasonable and I am frankly surprised there is an objection to that.

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Lobo
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"Also, thanks to guys like you, the state of West Virginia didn't have the tax revenue to house her even though she was declared to be insane."

I don't know that you can blame conservatives for this...

I think the conservative stance would be to lock up the crazies.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by Lobo:
"Also, thanks to guys like you, the state of West Virginia didn't have the tax revenue to house her even though she was declared to be insane."

I don't know that you can blame conservatives for this...

I think the conservative stance would be to lock up the crazies.

While there was a progressive movement for the mentally ill who posed no threat not to be institutionalized so long as they pose no threat that wasn't why she was walking around free. A judge declared that she WAS a potential threat to herself and others. The state mental hospital simply had no place to put her.

I can blame conservatives for this because while they may want to be on the side of law and order they also want to be the party of small government and low taxes. Mental health and social services are amongst the first things likely to get cut in that situation.

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TommySama
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"No, that wasn't my point. I was put to the question, which was basically if I love the police so much why don't I join them, and this was after I asked why don't the people who hate the cops so much join them to make them better.

One reason I would think long and hard before joining the police is the very ingratitude I see on display here. Put my life on the line for people who basically would like nothing more than to spit in my face? Thank you but I'll pass."

Cherry, I get what you were saying now. But you went on to say the same thing again. Do you really think that some people think poorly of the police because they're authority figures, or do you think it has been well earned disrespect? Personally, I think the cops will be catch **** no matter what from people they target (criminals, suspected criminals). But they don't do themselves much good being rude to regular people. Every time I see a cop run a red light, flick off another driver, ignore a citizen, etc, I get a more and more negative opinion of them in general. Its "us vs them" to a lot of cops, and everybody knows it.

I don't think they're better than you or anyone else here. They are regular people who got a job, probably with great intentions. But they have to be kept to a standard of decency, because power is easy to abuse. ESPECIALLY with a job that is difficult. So sure, give this cop the benefit of the doubt. But what is going to happen is the investigation will find he acted improperly, cover it up, maybe dock his pay for a week or two, and then it will be over.

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kmbboots
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I absolutely believe that the police - and governmnet in general - must be held accountable when they exceed their authority and that such authority must be strictly limited.

I also want to state that I have never had a police officer be rude to me and most were even quite pleasant and professional even while arresting me. Of course, I am a white woman who also makes an effort to be pleasant and polite in such situations.

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tonylovern
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quote:
but I don't think the citizens of America deserve the sacrfice our police and military make for us.
sitting on your ass writing speeding tickets all day isn't much of a sacrifice. seriously, i've never seen a cop do anything useful aside from direct traffic.

when my house was broken into 5 times in the same year, the cops did nothing. when friends of mine were raped, the cops did nothing. when my mothers home was broken into and the neighbor saw who did it, giving the police the persons name, the cops did nothing.

i've never seen a cop sacrifice anything.

the only way the police could ever redeem themselves in my eyes would be to start living up to thier motto of protect and serve. it wont happen though, writing speeding tickets is much more profitable.

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DonaldD
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Tony, you seem to have a uniquely negative experience of dealing with cops.

Maybe you should move. Seriously. There are places in the world where they aren't nearly so bad.

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cherrypoptart
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I thought it was common knowledge that one of the most dangerous things police do is walk up on a car to write someone a ticket. Sometimes that's the last thing they do. A criminal has their gun ready and can basically shoot the police officer at point blank range.

Also, don't forget how Timothy McVeigh was caught. Basically, he was pulled over for speeding. As much as we don't like it, getting pulled over for minor traffic violations is one tool in the box for law enforcement to catch serious criminals too.

I'd also like to say that I'm not necessarily defending this police officer's actions. On the surface, it looks like he went overboard and over-reacted to an irate woman. But I'll also wait to see how it pans out and let the legal process run it's course. It's funny how the police are guilty before they even get a trial but Mumia is innocent well after his trial finds him guilty.

-----------------------------------------

> when my house was broken into 5 times in the same year, the cops did nothing. when friends of mine were raped, the cops did nothing. when my mothers home was broken into and the neighbor saw who did it, giving the police the persons name, the cops did nothing.

Honestly that's also been my experience as well. No crime that I've ever been a victim of has been solved by the police. They don't even seem to do anything to be honest. Personally, I think there should be a process to deputize civilians to let them have access to information and resources to help them solve their own cases, and I'm talking about credit card fraud in particular here. You could have the time and place of purchases such as at gas stations. The cops aren't going to check for any tapes to get a license number on a car. Not worth their time, but if a civilian had the authority to ask for that information, it's possible more crimes might get solved.

Edited to add: Of course I understand they may be working murders and very serious cases, so don't have time to solve an attempted carjacking (which is downgraded to just vandalism anyway because my wife and kids were in the car and scared them off after they broke the lock on the driver's side door tryin to get in) or credit card fraud or robbery at gunpoint.

I'm just saying I understand the police are just human beings, and in fact are government workers so you get what you pay for, but I don't share the hatred of them that seems too common.

[ August 18, 2009, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: cherrypoptart ]

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tonylovern
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i've lived in ohio, indiana and florida.

i've been arrested in ohio, south carolina and florida.

i've filed complaints in ohio and indiana.

i've been investigated by the fbi.

if it werent for the weed, i would have never been arrested.

in my experience indiana has the most laid back cops. south carolina has the biggest douchebag cops, and ohio has the most controlling cops.

florida cops are a breed all thier own. because they deal with so many tourists, they're the most businesslike. they have the processing down to a science and they're the least judgemental.

i would still live in florida if it werent for the crackheads.

as is, i would like to move to california. i could be one prescription away from never getting arrested again.

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Funean
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Do you suppose that some of the anger and lack of appreciation directed at the police might be informed by a general perception that they are given exceptional powers (compared to civilians) to protect the citizenry, arrest and detain suspected lawbreakers, and provide investigatory support to prosecution, but seem to use those powers most visibly to harsh on people they don't like, speed, and get free coffee, while waving their hands around about how said hands are tied?

I'm not being snarky here. I hear far more anecdotes (and I'm only counting the ones from the people they happened to, not their cousin's co-worker) about the police being indifferent or abusive than I do ones about truly helpful or heroic behavior.

I don't doubt it's terrible work. I'd never do it, just like a lot of professions I've judged myself unable to do or unsuited for. But that doesn't entitle me to hold them to a lower standard than is acceptable. There's a lot that's really hard about being a doctor or teacher, too, and I wouldn't excuse rampant wrong-body-part removal or beating of students on that account.

Bad behavior is bad behavior, no matter who is engaging in it. And to those whom much is given (immediate power over other citizens, in this case) much is expected. If you have anger issues or have come to hate the human race (both understandable conditions in police officers), it's probably time to stop carrying weapons in the course of your job.

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tonylovern
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i should add: i know that my experience is not typical. my experiences have shaped my views, and my views aren't typical. also, whenever i've talked to a cop i've always been "yes sir, no sir". i dont give them any reason to dislike me other than what they're arresting me for.

most of the cops that have arrested me have been chatty and outgoing. i wont go into the dynamics of criminal/cop interaction, but i will say that once you've been through the system a few times, you get to understand which ones are just doing the job, and which ones enjoy it a little too much.

not all cops are like the ones i've described. some aren't too bad. but the good ones definitely seem to be in the minority.

a lot of my complaints are directed more to the policies they go by.

i object to racial profiling. i object to speeding tickets and drug enforcement being a higher priority than theft and assault. theres no way to address my complaint because those guidlines are based on a profit ratio.

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tonylovern
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oh, and i disagree that writing speeding tickets is in any way more dangerous than working at a convenience store.

just because you see it in movies, doesn't mean its common in real life.

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