Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Recruiting the children (Page 6)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 13 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  11  12  13   
Author Topic: Recruiting the children
Gina
Member
Member # 6372

 - posted      Profile for Gina   Email Gina   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:


You can't, can you? Because Obama hasn't made the speech yet!!!!

Which means this is all just a delusion in your mind... [Eek!]

No, and we won't see it until it's too late, either!!!!!!

We have, however, seen his creepy curriculum outline, which is only slightly less creepy now that he's taken out the bit about "write down what you're going to do to help Obama."

Posts: 476 | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daruma28
Member
Member # 1388

 - posted      Profile for Daruma28   Email Daruma28   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lina Inverse:
Man, I feel sorry for your kids [Frown]

You know what Lina...**** you. That is a pretty low insult to make to ANYONE.

Yeah, I want my kid to have the values I instill in him...not some messianic figurehead politician promoting his political agenda.

Posts: 7543 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Obama is appealing to the youth to contribute to the "community."
Isn't this precisely what is in the mission statements and curriculum guidelines of pretty much every school in the country? Are we saying schools should not teach youth to contribute to their communities?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe when Obama does it there will be air quotes around it.
Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daruma28
Member
Member # 1388

 - posted      Profile for Daruma28   Email Daruma28   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Obama is appealing to the youth to contribute to the "community."
Isn't this precisely what is in the mission statements and curriculum guidelines of pretty much every school in the country? Are we saying schools should not teach youth to contribute to their communities?
Heh...remember, I'm the "Abolish Public Education" precisely because I view it as the primary vehicle for indoctrinating the youth in communitarian values.

But that's besides the point. I find Obama's actions here most definitely ARE reminiscent of Hitler's program.

Pointing out the similarities in methodolgy certainly have merit.

Let me add - my martial arts class is held twice a week in the cafeteria of a public school in the evening. Well over a month ago, there was a large bulletin board put up with a large headline "Walk for Obama" and a large picture of him, followed with a bullet point list outlining the goals of this "speech" and what the children can do to "walk with Obama."

My first thought was: imagine how the liberal progressives would flip out had a similar thing been put up in the cafeteria for Bush (or any Republican for that matter).

My second thought was this was weird...almost cult like.

Some of you lefty folks really do treat Obama as some sort of messiah. Hell, half of you would lose your mind if some Christian teacher put up a similar bulletin board with a picture of Jesus and the old "footprints in the sand" poem and an exhortation to follow the teachings of Christ to create a better world. And I'd agree that such a thing has no business in a public school cafeteria.


But replace the image with Obama, and change the message to BUILDING COMMUNITY, why, how dare unreasonable, backward, bitter people clinging to their guns and religion protest!? [Exploding]

That bulletin board totally conveys a message of "Children, it's time to genuflect before the alter of communitarian ideology and work together to establish a sustainable future! Yes WE CAN!"

Simply nauseating. [DOH]

Posts: 7543 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lina Inverse
Member
Member # 6361

 - posted      Profile for Lina Inverse   Email Lina Inverse       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
quote:
Originally posted by Lina Inverse:
Man, I feel sorry for your kids [Frown]

You know what Lina...**** you. That is a pretty low insult to make to ANYONE.

Yeah, I want my kid to have the values I instill in him...not some messianic figurehead politician promoting his political agenda.

Dude, you're anti-field trips.
Posts: 457 | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
But replace the image with Obama, and change the message to BUILDING COMMUNITY, why, how dare unreasonable, backward, bitter people clinging to their guns and religion protest!?
Huh? I don't think such a poster is appropriate regardless of which party is represented. I don't mind an unannotated poster of whomever the current president is, though.

I also don't mind the president delivering a non-partisan statement of the importance of education to the kids, regardless of who's doing it. If he goes beyond that in any meaningful way, I'll object strongly.

Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daruma28
Member
Member # 1388

 - posted      Profile for Daruma28   Email Daruma28   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ya know what...I don't have another class their until next week. If it's still up, I'm gonna take a picture of it and try and post it for you all to see.

It is quite clearly a preparation for the grand address by Deh Fuhrer Hope & Change to the Youth of the Global Community!

Posts: 7543 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daruma28
Member
Member # 1388

 - posted      Profile for Daruma28   Email Daruma28   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lina Inverse:
quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
quote:
Originally posted by Lina Inverse:
Man, I feel sorry for your kids [Frown]

You know what Lina...**** you. That is a pretty low insult to make to ANYONE.

Yeah, I want my kid to have the values I instill in him...not some messianic figurehead politician promoting his political agenda.

Dude, you're anti-field trips.
[LOL]

If that's all you meant, I apologize for the " **** You."

Field trips were pretty much the highlights of my public schooling experience.

Posts: 7543 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G2
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
But replace the image with Obama, and change the message to BUILDING COMMUNITY, why, how dare unreasonable, backward, bitter people clinging to their guns and religion protest!?
Huh? I don't think such a poster is appropriate regardless of which party is represented. I don't mind an unannotated poster of whomever the current president is, though.

I also don't mind the president delivering a non-partisan statement of the importance of education to the kids, regardless of who's doing it. If he goes beyond that in any meaningful way, I'll object strongly.

You know, that's pretty much the position I have on it too. Version 1 was urging teachers to have students write letters to themselves about how they can help the president. Version 2 changed that to letters to themselves about achieving their short- and long-term education goals. Version 2 is just fine, version 1 was over the line, creepy even. Especially when you roll into the newest viral video where celebrities pledge their service to Obama - which is being shown in some schools BTW. That's way creepy.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That "newest viral video" was filmed back during the Inauguration, and is only making the rounds now because right-wing talk show hosts are pushing it.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 2763

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
That "newest viral video" was filmed back during the Inauguration, and is only making the rounds now because right-wing talk show hosts are pushing it.

It did get shown by one teacher at a school here in Utah. But yes, the incident has been amplified quite a bit.
Posts: 3481 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hobsen
Member
Member # 2923

 - posted      Profile for hobsen   Email hobsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This thread has grown to more posts than I want to read. If Obama says anything of note, people can discuss that after he has spoken.

Just the same Obama probably made a mistake here. He may have been elected President of the United States, but in much of the country he would be voted down for the local school board. So protesters can now organize recall elections for school board members who allow the speech to be heard, and some of these will probably succeed. And reporting on such local revolts against Obama as a person will in turn take attention away from more important national issues, which is not what he wants.

Otherwise the dispute between Lina Inverse and Daruma28 seems to have been settled, so I shall not go back over it. But such remarks should be avoided.

Posts: 4387 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 6161

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I, for one, am getting tired of President Obama pretending that he isn't the president so as not to offend the lunatics.

I am tired of being held hostage by crazy people.

Posts: 2635 | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hobsen
Member
Member # 2923

 - posted      Profile for hobsen   Email hobsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That feeling is understandable, Kmbboots. And Obama no doubt hopes his address may inspire minority students who might otherwise drop out of school, which is a good intention in itself.

But the opening day of school could just as well have occurred at the time articles of impeachment had been drawn up to remove President Nixon from office for his involvement in Watergate, or while President Clinton was embroiled in scandal over Monica Lewinsky's blue dress. Parents at those times might have preferred their children go back to school without being distracted by such national happenings. So if this speech becomes an annual tradition, something like that will take place sooner or later; and some President will find that speaking or not speaking provides only a choice of evils.

In addition the opening day of school seems to me a bad time, as that happens on different days around the country. If Obama had included a national address to schoolchildren at the time he announced the Thanksgiving holiday, that would have been for a national event celebrated by all schools. And making that announcement is a traditional Presidential duty, so all that matters is that it be made by whoever holds the office, without regard to whether his character is inspiring for schoolchildren. So the protests right now seem to me unjustified, but the precedent seems a poor one.

Posts: 4387 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I, for one, am getting tired of President Obama pretending that he isn't the president so as not to offend the lunatics.

I am tired of being held hostage by crazy people."

Hear focking hear.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm confused by this whole "opening day" bit, anyway. Every school in this area has been open for a few days now.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
I'm gonna violate Godwin's law here...but I just can't help it.

Obama's appeal to address the youth and issue a call to action (which is essentially what he's doing)...is eerily reminiscent of the Hitler youth program.

Creepy.

Ceasar built roads.
Hitler built roads.
Eisenhower built roads.

They must all fall into the same camp, eh?

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Wait a minute Ev, tell me which previous president has ever addressed the youth of the notion, on TV, during public school...calling all of the children to become "involved" in what is essentially a political purpose?

Not "A" political purpose. But political purposes in general. To find what they care about and actually act like they, you know, care about it.

For how much the term "sheeple" gets bandied about it's amusing to see the people who like it suddenly turn around and decry a message to actually pay attention and not just go with the flow.

[ September 04, 2009, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by G2:
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
But replace the image with Obama, and change the message to BUILDING COMMUNITY, why, how dare unreasonable, backward, bitter people clinging to their guns and religion protest!?
Huh? I don't think such a poster is appropriate regardless of which party is represented. I don't mind an unannotated poster of whomever the current president is, though.

I also don't mind the president delivering a non-partisan statement of the importance of education to the kids, regardless of who's doing it. If he goes beyond that in any meaningful way, I'll object strongly.

You know, that's pretty much the position I have on it too. Version 1 was urging teachers to have students write letters to themselves about how they can help the president. Version 2 changed that to letters to themselves about achieving their short- and long-term education goals. Version 2 is just fine, version 1 was over the line, creepy even. Especially when you roll into the newest viral video where celebrities pledge their service to Obama - which is being shown in some schools BTW. That's way creepy.
Version 1 and 2 were the exact same thing though, effectively. The only difference was that verson 1 would have required the kids to pay enough attention to Obama's speech to glean the spscific details, while now they can snooze thorugh it and still hack up a decent response based on the question itself.

Again, you'll find version 1 as the basic bolierplate (with the word president in the blank) for any similar active listening excecise. The only thing "over the line" came from fantasies about what he might say.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
quote:
Originally posted by Lina Inverse:
Also like Hitler Youth: the draft, the Peace Corps, public education, holding mock elections in class, community service, field trips, asking a child for their opinion...

Heh....I know you don't mean to, but damn Lina, I agree with your points wholeheartedly here!

All you enlightened progressive liberals just think Obama appealing to the children is such a wonderful idea...

...what's next? Shall we give the vote to all children as well? Afterall, they are a part of the COMMUNITY!

Absolutely- with a small number of exceptions, all of them will get the right to vote within the next decade or so. We can either make sure that they're engaged, aware, and ready to use it productively now, or we can let them continue on in apathy and letthem believe that they're not relevant as most young voters tend to act.

But then I guess helping younger voters find their voice would more, based on overall statistics, but a dent in the conservative powerbase, so that's trouble right there. Better to try to demonize efforts to make them more involved and, instead, really show them that they don't matter.

[ September 04, 2009, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
philnotfil
Member
Member # 1881

 - posted      Profile for philnotfil     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I, for one, am getting tired of President Obama pretending that he isn't the president so as not to offend the lunatics.

I am tired of being held hostage by crazy people.

Yes.

quote:
Version 1 and 2 were the exact same thing though, effectively. The only difference was that verson 1 would have required the kids to pay enough attention to Obama's speech to glean the spscific details, while now they can snooze thorugh it and still hack up a decent response based on the question itself.

Again, you'll find version 1 as the basic bolierplate (with the word president in the blank) for any similar active listening excecise. The only thing "over the line" came from fantasies about what he might say.

This too. My crazy conservative in-laws were up in arms about this and asked me what I thought of these terrible questions they were going to use to brainwash the kids. I looked at it and said it looks to me like what you would tell kids to think about before they heard the POTUS give a speech on the importance of education. They all think I'm a crazy liberal now.
Posts: 3719 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I, for one, am getting tired of President Obama pretending that he isn't the president so as not to offend the lunatics.

I am tired of being held hostage by crazy people.

Your error is that you assume that they're crazy.
Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In fairness, it's also possible that she has simply concluded they're crazy through a process of observation and deduction.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Oh please Wayward...now you're being obtuse.

It doesn't take a genius to accurately extrapolate the substance of the message when you look at the event guide distributed to the teachers:

quote:
* Create posters of their goals. Posters could be formatted in quadrants or puzzle pieces or trails marked with the labels: personal, academic, community, country. Each area could be labeled with three steps for achieving goals in those areas. It might make sense to focus on personal and academic so community and country goals come more readily.
* Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president. These would be collected and redistributed at an appropriate later date by the teacher to make students accountable to their goals.

This is a call to action by the President on the youth to "do their part for the country."
And the first step seems to be for them to identify what it is that _they_ want to do for their country. Not to write down what someone else wants them to do.

That's where the critical difference is.

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
In fairness, it's also possible that she has simply concluded they're crazy through a process of observation and deduction.

Then she's not looked deep enough. Some of the middlemen may effectively be crazy, but there's more method than madness here; it's an object lesson in how to paralyze someone who's too willing to compromise and find a "middle ground."

http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20070815.html

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's a new peak of rightwing paranoia toward government when encouraging children to make a connection between academic achievement and good civics is deemed an evil plot.

Really. The hilarity is exquisite. But alas, it is not a comedy show but, instead,real people attempting to affect real life, and that turns it from funny to kinda scary.

These are the people in our neighborhood. *sigh*

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G2
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I, for one, am getting tired of President Obama pretending that he isn't the president so as not to offend the lunatics.

I am tired of being held hostage by crazy people.

That's new new version of that phrase. Let's look at the way that was worded in the 8 years prior:

I, for one, am getting tired of President Bush pretending that he isn't the president so as not to offend the lunatics.

I am tired of being held hostage by crazy people.


Heh, what goes around ...

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Never knew Dubya pretended not to be the prez. For that matter, have yet to hear of Obama in 'I not teh prez' drag.

Interesting how some people just come up with one untrue fancy after another and present them as something actually real.

I think Obama should have the White House helicopter painted black just to see what loony fantasies that inspires in certain loony people.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
" Hell, half of you would lose your mind if some Christian teacher put up a similar bulletin board with a picture of Jesus and the old "footprints in the sand" poem and an exhortation to follow the teachings of Christ to create a better world. And I'd agree that such a thing has no business in a public school cafeteria."

I disagree. I have no issue with using religious figures. Just treat them as such.

Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed: lots of good civics and morals and ethics lessons in the stories of those guys.

Just don't tell kids God is Real. School is for teaching critical thinking and acquiring verifiable data.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wayward Son
Member
Member # 210

 - posted      Profile for Wayward Son   Email Wayward Son   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Oh please Wayward...now you're being obtuse.

It doesn't take a genius to accurately extrapolate the substance of the message when you look at the event guide distributed to the teachers...

I'm just tired of people becoming outraged over wild speculation.

No, it doesn't take a genius to accurately extrapolate the substance of the message. Unfortunately, you still haven't done it right. You are wrong. The bland, inspecific "goals" described in your quote does nothing to further any political agenda, unless you believe that helping the community is a political agenda in itself. Admittedly, you probably do, but then you are fighting against the values of a vast majority of our nation. We may have different beliefs about how to improve our communities, but we all want them to improve. If you don't, you are basically anti-civilization.

(And if you are in any way offended, just state for the record that you are for improving communities and I will acknowledge that this does not apply to you. Then explain why a generic "improve communities" message is worth comparing Obama to Hitler.)

It may not take a genius, but you are no genius, and from my perspective, your extrapolation abilites are sub-par. So why don't we just stick to actual events and facts, instead of arguing over who has the best prognostication?

Because I'm tired of arguing with a bunch of Chicken Littles. [Mad]

Posts: 8681 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pyrtolin
Member
Member # 2638

 - posted      Profile for Pyrtolin   Email Pyrtolin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by G2:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I, for one, am getting tired of President Obama pretending that he isn't the president so as not to offend the lunatics.

I am tired of being held hostage by crazy people.

That's new new version of that phrase. Let's look at the way that was worded in the 8 years prior:

I, for one, am getting tired of President Bush pretending that he isn't the president so as not to offend the lunatics.

I am tired of being held hostage by crazy people.

What big policy items exactly did Bush end up waffling on because of irrational popular protest again?

Unless, of course you're talking about members of his administration itself, in wich case, you might not find much argument on that one.

[ September 04, 2009, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

Posts: 11997 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20070815.html

I note that the way the principle in this cartoon is typically exploited is in the reverse:

a) X's plan to improve health care access could result in kittens being pureed in blenders! Therefore we must not let's X's plan come to pass!

b) OK, so we'll reduce the plan by half, gut it so that it no longer has the potential (that it never had in the first place) to puree kittens, even if doing so removes its potential to significantly improve health care access.

That's fair and balanced.

Why is the right wing so currently in decline in actual elections? because it has committed itself to appealing to stupider and stupider people.

While the world is indeed full of stupid people, not all of them are THAT stupid, and many of them are really quite smart.

The bigger problem is, alas, that so many of our politicians are as stupid as those to whom some appeal with crazy declarations.

[ September 04, 2009, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Because I'm tired of arguing with a bunch of Chicken Littles."

Intentionally or not, the Chicken Littles do a good job of keeping us from discussing more rational and important matters.

We *could*, you know, just discuss what we want in a gov-alt health plan and just pat the Chicken Littles on the head now and then as they squawk paranoid nonsense.

Really, we could.

But... we prefer to just peck at each other because this is a forum of entertainment not meaningful action.

I for one am all for a government funded health option. I am well aware of the less savory aspects of anything governmentally mandated and funded. There will be problems and abuses.

This is, after all, life on planet earth (which seems of late to have become a popular tourist destination for people who are obviously from some other dimension).

AN irony I'll note is that for us to get a strong and well-principled health care reform package requires strong and well-principled legislators and leaders. Having those, in turn, greatly reduces the risk of those less savory aspects I mentioned.

But we have to work with the clay we've got. We'll either get decent health care reform or we'll be getting an upgrade in legislators.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lobo
Member
Member # 89

 - posted      Profile for Lobo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Our schools sent home a letter stating that they were going to show the president's messsage with an option to opt out. Those that don't watch the president will have something else to do.

I know of several people who will not have their children participate. I think that is a mistake... My kids will watch and then we will discuss it as a family. I think we need to teach our children to give respect to the president, even if I disagree with most of his ideas.

I think if the study guide would have started out with something like "ask what you can do for your country" instead of "ask how you can help Obama" if would have been better. Obama tends to think a bit too highly of himself I think and that rubs people the wrong way...

Posts: 1094 | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whether Obama thinks too highly of himself or not (how do you know this, Lobo?), I recall no mention of how we can help Obama in this thing.

How can we help the president is a question, and one whose context is 'How can we help the president lead the country to be a better place to live' and all that good stuff.

Lord knows what grief some would give Obama if he dared ask that question in any way like the famous Kennedy line 'Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country".

He would be accused of Kennedy wannabe vainglory. Not to mention how 'liberal' it is to ask people to bootstrap their nation rather than asking their nation to bootstrap them.

The non sequiturs keep piling up...

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lobo
Member
Member # 89

 - posted      Profile for Lobo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't actually 'know' that Obama thinks highly of himself. He comes off to many people as arrogant and very self assured. Many people like this trait, but many don't. I think it is one of the reasons he is disliked.

The study guide listed several examples of how we can help the president - in this case Obama, instead of how we can help our community or country. This comes across as narcissistic.

Obama has already been compared many times to JFK. What is one more similarity...

It is 'liberal' to give people things - welfare, medical care, etc. without asking for anything in return. It is 'conservative' to expect people to take care of themselves first and then reach out to others. You have things backwards I think.

And where is the non sequitor?

Posts: 1094 | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kenmeer livermaile
Member
Member # 2243

 - posted      Profile for kenmeer livermaile   Email kenmeer livermaile       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I don't actually 'know' that Obama thinks highly of himself. He comes off to many people as arrogant and very self assured. Many people like this trait, but many don't. I think it is one of the reasons he is disliked."

That's better. Yes, Obama has a healthy self-respect, and those who dislike his views dislike that he proclaims them with conviction.

Bush had a similar problem. Those who disliked his views thought of him as a Little Caesar kinda guy.

"It is 'liberal' to give people things - welfare, medical care, etc. without asking for anything in return. It is 'conservative' to expect people to take care of themselves first and then reach out to others. You have things backwards I think."

I think you need to turn up the setting on your Irony Register. I was being facetious.

Oy vey. And that, you see, was the non sequitur: that it is largely conservatives freaking over this thing when this thing is very much an exhortation to personal accomplishment and self-reliance.

In America, you see, the idea is government of, by, and for the people. We have to work at it to have good governance because we are a democracy.

Posts: 23297 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lobo
Member
Member # 89

 - posted      Profile for Lobo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"I think you need to turn up the setting on your Irony Register. I was being facetious."

Oh... sorry about that. We have a new baby and I am functioning on little sleep. I can usually keep up.

"Oy vey. And that, you see, was the non sequitur: that it is largely conservatives freaking over this thing when this thing is very much an exhortation to personal accomplishment and self-reliance."

I agree. I think alot of people only see Obama and not the message. Perhaps it would have been better to have Bill Cosby deliver the message...

Posts: 1094 | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gina
Member
Member # 6372

 - posted      Profile for Gina   Email Gina   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
What big policy items exactly did Bush end up waffling on because of irrational popular protest again?

Social Security reform and amnesty for illegal immigrants spring immediately to mind.

Those of you who are tired of having to deal with "the crazies": Tough. This is what living in a pluralistic society is. You trust Obama unwaveringly, we don't, and frankly if he was acting more presidential instead of trying to micromanage our lives, there would be less anxiety about him. Fix the economy. Deal with Afghanistan. Don't schedule campaign speeches (as his national press conferences and over-managed townhalls end up being) every damn week.

As a result of the outcry, the lesson plans were changed, the text of the speech will be posted online in advance, and schools are aware that they should stress the optional aspect. These are good things. It's proving to be a lesson after all. [Smile] In how democracy works and in healthy skepticism of one's government.

Posts: 476 | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 13 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  11  12  13   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1