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Author Topic: Recruiting the children
DonaldD
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quote:
You trust Obama unwaveringly, we don't
See, you are projecting again. Yes, you are unwavering in your opposition to all things Obama, but I don't think there is a single active poster at Ornery who has not decried at least some of his positions and actions, or who have not voiced their qualified opposition to some putative/prospective policy, depending on its implementation.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
What big policy items exactly did Bush end up waffling on because of irrational popular protest again?

Social Security reform and amnesty for illegal immigrants spring immediately to mind.

I'll reserve comment on SS reform (not sure if you mean privtization or some other actual systemic reforms) but agree totally that roughly the same kind of craziness did kill what would have been a good step forward in lowering immigration restrictions and granting amnesty.

But the main drives against it came from the same conservative sources that are currently swamping health care reform. (And I'm including union efforts to take moving tax credits for healthcare away from businesses and toward individuals, since that way not only would insurance be more portable, but they could be scaled based on need and income, and not serve as extra bonuses on gold plated executive care plans)

quote:
Those of you who are tired of having to deal with "the crazies": Tough. This is what living in a pluralistic society is. You trust Obama unwaveringly, we don't, and frankly if he was acting more presidential instead of trying to micromanage our lives, there would be less anxiety about him. Fix the economy. Deal with Afghanistan. Don't schedule campaign speeches (as his national press conferences and over-managed townhalls end up being) every damn week.
There's a difference between dealing with people who have different priorities and dealing with people that have been stoked into fear-based irrationality by carefully crafted lies and misinformation.

Your accusation of micromanagement still doesn't hold any substance. It's an assertion with no facts to back it.

And you seem to be coming down strongly in favor of the old, back room, LBJ way of getting things done. You want him to fix all these things- things that require legislative action, but you don't want to see the process. What he's doing is changing the process. Instead of using direct influence to cut deals with enough legislators to push an agenda thorugh, he's going out to the people and encouraging them to be the ones who drive policy.

Presidents have done the same thing all along, they just did their "campaigning" at the top, rather than the bottom. That he's going out and engaging people and trying to make them feel like they have voices and power in the system is a welcome change and far more active leadership than we've seen in a long time, nevermind what you're wiling to give him credit for. The big problem up till now has been that officials, once elected, take the support they've mustered for granted and don't keep trying to connect with the people who put them there. Obama's style fits the spirit of FDR's fireside chats, more than anything.


quote:
As a result of the outcry, the lesson plans were changed, the text of the speech will be posted online in advance, and schools are aware that they should stress the optional aspect. These are good things. It's proving to be a lesson after all. [Smile] In how democracy works and in healthy skepticism of one's government.
The lesson plans have been watered down, so that instead of having to listen analytically to what he's saying, even for an obvious message, kids can hack together a response without ever actually engaging.

Sure there's a little more emphasis on the optional nature, but as Lobo indicated, that's an absurd choice to take- agree or disagree parents shouldn't be censoring this, but using it as a ground point for discussion of their agreement or disagreement with the message.

All in all, the most that's happened is, as has also been pointed out that lots of time has been wasted on the discussion of a non-issue and people have been distracted from the main events.

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
But the main drives against it came from the same conservative sources that are currently swamping health care reform.

And?? You asked for examples of popular pressure circumventing something GWB wanted to do.

quote:
Those of you who are tired of having to deal with "the crazies": Tough. This is what living in a pluralistic society is. You trust Obama unwaveringly, we don't, and frankly if he was acting more presidential instead of trying to micromanage our lives, there would be less anxiety about him. Fix the economy. Deal with Afghanistan. Don't schedule campaign speeches (as his national press conferences and over-managed townhalls end up being) every damn week.
quote:
There's a difference between dealing with people who have different priorities and dealing with people that have been stoked into fear-based irrationality by carefully crafted lies and misinformation.
Here's a mindbender: What if your perception that people have been stoked into fear-based irrationality by carefully crafted lies and misinformation comes from the fact that you've been stoked into fear-based irrationality by carefully crafted lies and misinformation?
quote:

What he's doing is changing the process. Instead of using direct influence to cut deals with enough legislators to push an agenda thorugh, he's going out to the people and encouraging them to be the ones who drive policy.

This is Cult of Obama hype. Yes, he's making himself obnoxiously front and center clamoring for attention on everything. But it's not about the "process," because if he had had his way, the Congress would already have voted on his major policy objectives and they would be a done deal. He's selling. Overselling and badly selling, but still selling.

And he shouldn't be circumventing parents to try to sell to school kids. Yes, I would say that even if it was a Republican President.

[ September 04, 2009, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
But the main drives against it came from the same conservative sources that are currently swamping health care reform.

And?? You asked for examples of popular pressure circumventing something GWB wanted to do.


Indeed. And you came up with an example that reinforces the point that it's one particular political faction that's using those tactics, not that it's normal partisan play.

quote:
quote:
There's a difference between dealing with people who have different priorities and dealing with people that have been stoked into fear-based irrationality by carefully crafted lies and misinformation.
Here's a mindbender: What if your perception that people have been stoked into fear-based irrationality by carefully crafted lies and misinformation comes from the fact that you've been stoked into fear-based irrationality by carefully crafted lies and misinformation?


You might have a point if I were racting to and assuming to be correct a narrow set of sources and not investigating issues more deeply, but I don't- I do my best to look for secondary analysis, to examine what's coming from actual authorities, and dig into non-partisan investigations of the claims.

I look for the full context in which quotes were made before I accept them and try to find other angles before settling on a particular view. And I don't accept claims that can't point to concrete evidence to back them up. Not speculation, not assumption or projection, something concrete.

quote:
quote:

What he's doing is changing the process. Instead of using direct influence to cut deals with enough legislators to push an agenda thorugh, he's going out to the people and encouraging them to be the ones who drive policy.

This is Cult of Obama hype. Yes, he's making himself obnoxiously front and center clamoring for attention on everything. But it's not about the "process," because if he had had his way, the Congress would already have voted on his major policy objectives and they would be a done deal. He's selling. Overselling and badly selling, but still selling.
If he had come in and played the old game through the back rooms, I'm sure you'd be right. And you'd be complaining that he and congress were ramming their agenda down your throat and leaving you out. There's no room there for him to do anything right. He's trying to do it differently, to use a tactic that is absolutely slower, but builds from the bottom up and tries to find a reasonable consesus. I'd like it to work, but it ends up with him bending over backward to accomodate people who have no actual intent to compromise and only want to sandbag the system. But at least it has the benefit of exposing people who do such for what they are, like the two repblican senators on the health reform committee who have actively said that their primary intent is to make sure that no reform can happen.

He's tried, and now, will probably have to step back toward the old way and force the matter on partisan lines, which is a shame, but at least it will get something done rather than catering to the passive-agressive tactics that are being used to take advantage of his attempts to work out a soultion.

quote:
And he shouldn't be circumventing parents to try to sell to school kids. Yes, I would say that even if it was a Republican President.
To sell what to school kids? The same message that presidents have been "circumventing" parents for years to sell? Heck, this time the parents will actually be able to turn on their own TV's and watch it too. That beats Bush's anti-drug talk even for universal access and the ability to create dialogue- to get people paying attention to what's being said- rather than just using it as a but of low level publicity.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Those of you who are tired of having to deal with "the crazies": Tough. This is what living in a pluralistic society is. You trust Obama unwaveringly"

Another ****ing wannabe mindreader.

Why should we tell you what we believe when you already know it?

You're either seriously or diligently dete4rmined to delude.

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kenmeer livermaile
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If Gina were a rapper, her handle would be D-100D
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kmbboots
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Can we please just say "tough" to the crazies, then instead of trying to be nice to them?
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

Indeed. And you came up with an example that reinforces the point that it's one particular political faction that's using those tactics, not that it's normal partisan play.

So let me just get this straight: You disagree with the process of participatory democracy? Once the majority has spoken in an election, people should stand back and shut up?

Sounds very Obama-like. [Smile]

quote:
I look for the full context in which quotes were made before I accept them and try to find other angles before settling on a particular view. And I don't accept claims that can't point to concrete evidence to back them up. Not speculation, not assumption or projection, something concrete.
I'm sure you're very thorough. The problem is that bias can lead the same people to look at the same facts and come to very different conclusions. And you're out of hand dismssing whole swathes of people as "crazies," because they take a different view than you.

quote:
Instead of using direct influence to cut deals with enough legislators to push an agenda thorugh, he's going out to the people and encouraging them to be the ones who drive policy.
Sort of like the panicked rush to Porkulus and the arm-twisting attendant to the cap and trade vote in the House?

How about dismissing "the people" as insurance stooges?

People are driving policy, but Obama just doesn't like where they're driving it.

You're still operating under the illusion that Obama wears a white hat. I can only shake my head. I'm at least glad to see that more people are waking up to the fact that he's a Chicago thug, perhaps more cool at it than most, and quickly finding out that trying to play his games on a national stage is tricky, but otherwise classic by-the-book. I had started to worry about my country, frankly, and begun to look around for the pods. I'm heartily encouraged to see that he's not getting away with it completely.

quote:
To sell what to school kids? The same message that presidents have been "circumventing" parents for years to sell? Heck, this time the parents will actually be able to turn on their own TV's and watch it too. That beats Bush's anti-drug talk even for universal access and the ability to create dialogue- to get people paying attention to what's being said- rather than just using it as a but of low level publicity.
Bush's speech was televised. Obama's was going to be webcast only into schools, if I'm not mistaken.

"What message"? You don't honestly think that he's just giving an innocuous "hey kids, do good in school" pep talk the day before he addresses a joint session of Congress on Obamacare? He probably will make it more innocuous now, but that doesn't mean that that's what he was planning. After all, you're the one who said that this is his strategy on policy issues.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"So let me just get this straight: You disagree with the process of participatory democracy? Once the majority has spoken in an election, people should stand back and shut up?"

I'm not sure if you're just tripping self-contradictorily over yourself, period, or tripping over an ill-conceived attempt to somehow trap or trick Pyrt, or just ducking and dodging as usual, period.

Little matter. BS is BS.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
He probably will make it more innocuous now, but that doesn't mean that that's what he was planning.

Isn't this how conspiracy theories start?
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Wayward Son
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quote:
He probably will make it more innocuous now, but that doesn't mean that that's what he was planning.
No, you don't know what the President was planning. You think you do, because you think you know how he thinks. But you don't.

And until you acknowledge this limitation on your prognostications, you will sound like a conspiracy theorist. And we will continue to keep correcting you, mocking you, and telling you that you don't know what you are talking about. Because you can never argue with, or come to a consensus with, someone who knows what someone else is really thinking and planning.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
Obama's was going to be webcast only into schools, if I'm not mistaken.


The President's message will be streamed live on WhiteHouse.gov/live, and broadcast live on C-Span.
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DonaldD
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
Bush's speech was televised. Obama's was going to be webcast only into schools, if I'm not mistaken.

Welcome to Ornery...
quote:
The speech will be broadcast live on www.WhiteHouse.gov and C-SPAN
...you are wrong
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
He probably will make it more innocuous now, but that doesn't mean that that's what he was planning.
No, you don't know what the President was planning. You think you do, because you think you know how he thinks. But you don't.

And until you acknowledge this limitation on your prognostications, you will sound like a conspiracy theorist. And we will continue to keep correcting you, mocking you, and telling you that you don't know what you are talking about. Because you can never argue with, or come to a consensus with, someone who knows what someone else is really thinking and planning.

I know as much about Obama as any citizen who stays reasonably informed. And I'm just as able to make a judgment based on what I know as you are.

What you really want to say that there is some inherent flaw in those who do this- who are informed and yet come to different conclusions than you. There is something morally, psychologically, emotionally wrong with them. They're crazies. They're ignorant. They're in need of your derisive enlightenment.

Meanwhile you sit back and congratulate yourself on how reasonable, informed, sane and decent you are.

You've definitely got the condescension and mocking part down pat. But it's what I've come to expect from this crowd.

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
you are wrong

Fine, I am happy to be corrected on this point. I would prefer that an address to the nation's youth be done in the evening when parents and children can listen simultaneously. A parent at work, even assuming they have access to live streaming web and can pause for 20 minutes to watch, is still being circumvented if the broadcast is also made live in schools.

I read that many school districts are not going to do the live broadcast, rather record it and judge then if it's appropriate to disseminate in civics classes. I think that's fine.

As for the lesson plan, it is not geared towards active listening, because active listening encourages one to listen critically, and this lesson plan is clearly slanted towards "now that you agree with what the President said, what are you going to do about it?"

[ September 04, 2009, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
You asked for examples of popular pressure circumventing something GWB wanted to do.
Yes, and the objection -- which was that this "popular pressure" consisted of the same crazies we're complaining about here -- is still absolutely relevant. If you're attempting to say, "hey, the crazy people aren't all that crazy," saying "look, they were crazy back then, too" isn't going to help you.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:

Indeed. And you came up with an example that reinforces the point that it's one particular political faction that's using those tactics, not that it's normal partisan play.

So let me just get this straight: You disagree with the process of participatory democracy? Once the majority has spoken in an election, people should stand back and shut up?
Yeah, that's totally the context we were speaking in. Let's roll it back- I wasn't talking about people in general, I was talking about fearmongers using baldfaced lies to create an irrational position. That's subversion of the demorcatic process, because it obscures the actual facts.

quote:
quote:
I look for the full context in which quotes were made before I accept them and try to find other angles before settling on a particular view. And I don't accept claims that can't point to concrete evidence to back them up. Not speculation, not assumption or projection, something concrete.
I'm sure you're very thorough. The problem is that bias can lead the same people to look at the same facts and come to very different conclusions. And you're out of hand dismssing whole swathes of people as "crazies," because they take a different view than you.
I ver specifically have not referred to "crazies" and even explicitly disputed that characterization.

If the different conclusions were based on facts that would be one thing, but when they're based on fabrications and speculation, they're completely different.

There's a lot of mileage between arguing over the merits of something that's in a piece of legislation and using waht Glenn Beck or an email forward claims is in that legilslation as evidence, when the actual documet says nothing of the sort.

quote:
quote:
Instead of using direct influence to cut deals with enough legislators to push an agenda thorugh, he's going out to the people and encouraging them to be the ones who drive policy.
Sort of like the panicked rush to Porkulus and the arm-twisting attendant to the cap and trade vote in the House?
You mean the attempt to pass the stumulus in which bending over to "bipartisanship" ended up in it getting largely neutered, instead of strongarming it through in its original form or better, a fully partisan form that wasn't designed from the get go as a compromise. (Which was a big rookie mistake in and of itself- if you offer a fair compromise up front, the other side is going to accuse you of not compromising if you don't go even further to their side)

Yeah, absolutely some mistakes there, but not on the side of being too pushy by any measure.

quote:

How about dismissing "the people" as insurance stooges?

What people are those, exactly?

quote:

People are driving policy, but Obama just doesn't like where they're driving it.

He's discovering that he can't push out his message as fast as his opponents can make lies out of it to scare people, that's for sure.

quote:
quote:
To sell what to school kids? The same message that presidents have been "circumventing" parents for years to sell? Heck, this time the parents will actually be able to turn on their own TV's and watch it too. That beats Bush's anti-drug talk even for universal access and the ability to create dialogue- to get people paying attention to what's being said- rather than just using it as a but of low level publicity.
Bush's speech was televised. Obama's was going to be webcast only into schools, if I'm not mistaken.
Bush's message went out via Channel One or a similar service which is only available in the schools that subscribed to it, not on anything available to the general public. Obama's message is going out via C-Span, which is part of nearly every basic cable package, and can be picked up by any network that wants to broadcast it as well.

quote:
"What message"? You don't honestly think that he's just giving an innocuous "hey kids, do good in school" pep talk the day before he addresses a joint session of Congress on Obamacare? He probably will make it more innocuous now, but that doesn't mean that that's what he was planning. After all, you're the one who said that this is his strategy on policy issues.
So he's trying to sell a fantasy message that you've concocted, have no evidence ever existed, but want people to accept by fiat actually did.

Your position would have been better served, then, if the outcry didn't happen and he'd been allowed to broadcast this "original" message so that people could see that it was a sales pitch. Right now all the existing evidence points to a fairly normal talk about staying in school and being civicly active. You've got no concrete evedience to point to at all.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
You asked for examples of popular pressure circumventing something GWB wanted to do.
Yes, and the objection -- which was that this "popular pressure" consisted of the same crazies we're complaining about here -- is still absolutely relevant. If you're attempting to say, "hey, the crazy people aren't all that crazy," saying "look, they were crazy back then, too" isn't going to help you.
And I still say that this is calculated, not crazy. It's an active application of lies and fearmongering to advance a particualar reactionary agenda.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
you are wrong

Fine, I am happy to be corrected on this point. I would prefer that an address to the nation's youth be done in the evening when parents and children can listen simultaneously. A parent at work, even assuming they have access to live streaming web and can pause for 20 minutes to watch, is still being circumvented if the broadcast is also made live in schools.
As opposed to circumventing them by broadcasting the message on a school-only channel, or even more common, circumenting them by going in person to the school and talking to them?
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kmbboots
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I remember that we were told to sit down and shut up more than once when President Bush was in power. Accused of being traitors and dismissed as "focus groups".
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I remember that we were told to sit down and shut up more than once when President Bush was in power. Accused of being traitors and dismissed as "focus groups".

Or being corralled off into "Free Speach Zones"?
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kenmeer livermaile
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I saw a unicorn in Central Park. It told me to think about what the president wants me to do.

I did.

Then I resumed my work on a bottle of Mad Dog.

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DonaldD
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
A parent at work, even assuming they have access to live streaming web and can pause for 20 minutes to watch, is still being circumvented if the broadcast is also made live in schools.

Are you talking about parents without access to VCR/DVRs and cable? Would these also be parents without access to the internet and Youtube (any bets on how many versions of this will end up on youtube?)

What vanishingly small number of interested parents are you concerned about, here?

Actually, upon re-reading I see that you are more concerned that children not be exposed to the words of the country's president without parental filters in place. Seriously? And you had this concern when other presidents addressed school children?

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kenmeer livermaile
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A genie came out of the bottle. It said:

"I know as much about Obama as any citizen who stays reasonably informed. And I'm just as able to make a judgment based on what I know as you are."

He then explained that's how he knew what Obama wanted to do based not on what the guy says or does but on extra-perceptive powers of the imagination.

He's riding the unicorn bareback with a mini-TV tuned to The Glenn Beck Show.

I need another bottle.

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JoshCrow
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This whole manufactured "controversy" is so outrageous... I mean, I'm very liberal and thought GWB was a poor president, and disagreed with a great deal of his policies, but if he wanted to tell kids about the importance of education I would have even given HIM the benefit of the doubt without so much as a second thought.

The paranoia is rampant... something is seriously wrong with the conservative wing right now, and I don't know what is responsible. I think it's a holdover reaction from having suffered incompetent leadership, or perhaps the reaction of a cornered animal after a string of losses. I hope perhaps over time, once the GOP establishes more credibility (or, more realistically, once they return to power), these sorts of hysterias will calm down.

[ September 04, 2009, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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New bottle. Too late to prevent the DTs. I know, beyond a shadow of an inebriated doubt, that Obama is working to brainwash our children into staging sit-down protests to force the government to enroll us all in mandatory no-option health care plans and release all the Gitmo prisoners in the Mall of the Americas with loaded AKs and grenade bandoleers.

I would do what the voices in my head tell me but I know now they're beamed in by Obamamen from Mongo.

[ September 04, 2009, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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kmbboots
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Nooooo. Couldn't be. Obama won't let anybody have guns! Mind rays.
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
You asked for examples of popular pressure circumventing something GWB wanted to do.
Yes, and the objection -- which was that this "popular pressure" consisted of the same crazies we're complaining about here -- is still absolutely relevant. If you're attempting to say, "hey, the crazy people aren't all that crazy," saying "look, they were crazy back then, too" isn't going to help you.
They were "crazy" for opposing a policy of the President? Really? That's really where you're coming down? Or were they crazy because they called and wrote their Senators and Reps and otherwise put political pressure to stop the proposed legislation? Or were they just de facto crazy because those Congresspeople actually listened to them, as opposed to the totally not-crazy people who do such things and don't succeed.

Really, please be specific. I'm just trying to nail down what constitutes "crazy" in this room. As a follow-up, tell me how the anti-Iraq War protesters were not crazy. Or perhaps the people protesting against warrantless wiretaps, the Patriot Act, etc.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
As a follow-up, tell me how the anti-Iraq War protesters were not crazy. Or perhaps the people protesting against warrantless wiretaps, the Patriot Act, etc.

To start with, what we said would happen did. We were actually right. Iraq was not a threat. It would be a huge mess. Lots of people would die. It would cost a lot of money. See how that works?
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I remember that we were told to sit down and shut up more than once when President Bush was in power. Accused of being traitors and dismissed as "focus groups".

And you were fine with that?
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I remember that we were told to sit down and shut up more than once when President Bush was in power. Accused of being traitors and dismissed as "focus groups".

And you were fine with that?
Were you "fine" when it was being done to us?

ETA: A more substantial answer. One of the most important reasons I supported then Sen. Obama in the primaries was that I thought he would be more of a consensus builder and less divisive than then Sen. Clinton. I thought that she was too much "us vs them and screw them". I begin to think now that I was foolish to believe that trying to work with conservatives was even possible or that they had any interest in being anything but divisive and obstructionist.

[ September 04, 2009, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
As a follow-up, tell me how the anti-Iraq War protesters were not crazy. Or perhaps the people protesting against warrantless wiretaps, the Patriot Act, etc.

To start with, what we said would happen did. We were actually right. Iraq was not a threat. It would be a huge mess. Lots of people would die. It would cost a lot of money. See how that works?
Sure, I do see how it works. You opposed a policy and protested accordingly, as was your right. And now you're spinning the outcome to suit yourself, which is also your right.

Meanwhile, other people do not have the right to lobby their government as they see fit, because you disagree with them and just don't like them.

That works out very neatly, for you.

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I remember that we were told to sit down and shut up more than once when President Bush was in power. Accused of being traitors and dismissed as "focus groups".

And you were fine with that?
Were you "fine" when it was being done to us?
You are assuming, perhaps, that I was a fan of George Bush.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"And I still say that this is calculated, not crazy. It's an active application of lies and fearmongering to advance a particualar reactionary agenda. "

I say it's both. Sure, there are rational beings putting out these lies and distortions for politically calculated reasons.

And there are all these crack-pipe crazies believing them in the face of overwhelming disproof.

That's today's current right wing political animal: ruthless charlatans manipulating whacked-out lumpen.

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kenmeer livermaile
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The genie returned, dressed as a whirling dervish and acting accordingly. He said:

"The casualties reported in Iraq didn't happen. And we didn't spend a dime not killing those people. It's gonna be fine over there."

And off he whirled, gold and and purple satin whirling from his midriff like a hula hoop on acid.

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Actually, upon re-reading I see that you are more concerned that children not be exposed to the words of the country's president without parental filters in place. Seriously? And you had this concern when other presidents addressed school children?

I don't think they should make it a habit, no. I do not think they should beam themselves into schools. Schools should not be politicized. Call me crazy.

Oh wait, that's already been covered. [Smile]

Of course, I have a pretty dim view of the public education system in general. As you would no doubt point out, this bias invalidates anything I have to say on the subject... unlike the totally objective, totally cool minds of the liberal Ornery set.

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kenmeer livermaile
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The unicorn staggered over, hiccuping glowing tinker belles.

"Two words," she told me. "Two words: mere sophistry. You can duck the truth from here to Brigadoon with mere sophistry."

Then she twisted the knob in her neck and dialed her long rainbow hair back from '50s burlesque Godiva hairpiece to Twiggy short crop.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Call me crazy."

Been there; done that.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I'm just trying to nail down what constitutes "crazy" in this room.
Collecting assault rifles and proclaiming in web forums that you're going to shoot any dark-skinned "illegals" you see if amnesty passes would be one example of "crazy."

The letter-writers weren't the problem. The people who, through lies and terror, made honest discussion of the issue impossible were the problem.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Remember parents: tinfoil schoolcap liners. Protect your kids from the Magic negro!
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