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Author Topic: Recruiting the children
kenmeer livermaile
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The Magical Half-White
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kenmeer livermaile
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BTW, I always thought those 'staches drawn on Obama should be white. I mean, he's so BLACK...
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JoshCrow
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This may be the result of a deep-seated unhappiness among conservatives with the fact that Obama is a very good presenter and speaker, and that having him speak to children will make them admire him (and, by corollary, his presidency).

In fact, I'm almost certain that's what this is about... I'd call it image-envy. The GOP doesn't have anybody at the national level who is popular right now, and so it's annoying to them.

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
BTW, I always thought those 'staches drawn on Obama should be white. I mean, he's so BLACK...

Got Milk?
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kenmeer livermaile
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BIngo!
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kenmeer livermaile
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I can't recall so ugly a period in American politics since the 50s, when McCarthyism was rampant and Jim Crow in full plumage.
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I'm just trying to nail down what constitutes "crazy" in this room.
Collecting assault rifles and proclaiming in web forums that you're going to shoot any dark-skinned "illegals" you see if amnesty passes would be one example of "crazy."

The letter-writers weren't the problem. The people who, through lies and terror, made honest discussion of the issue impossible were the problem.

And you think it was the assault rifles that finally turned GWB, eh? That was the key?

And those same crazed assault-rifle-wielding miscreants are what is causing Democrats to waver on Obama's agenda? Not, maybe, poll numbers? Not protesters?

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Wayward Son
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quote:
I know as much about Obama as any citizen who stays reasonably informed. And I'm just as able to make a judgment based on what I know as you are.

What you really want to say that there is some inherent flaw in those who do this- who are informed and yet come to different conclusions than you. There is something morally, psychologically, emotionally wrong with them. They're crazies. They're ignorant. They're in need of your derisive enlightenment.

Meanwhile you sit back and congratulate yourself on how reasonable, informed, sane and decent you are.

You've definitely got the condescension and mocking part down pat. But it's what I've come to expect from this crowd.

No, that is not what I really want to say. Read again what I've been saying. What I want to say is that you are mixing up informed reasoning with speculation.

You can be informed about what the President does. You can even speculate about his motivation and thinking about what he had done. You can even speculate about what you think he might do. But you've gone beyond that.

Not only are you speculating on what you think he will do, you are becoming enraged by your own speculation. You are blaming the President for things he hasn't done yet, based on your speculation on why something was written in a particular way. You even said that you knew what he was planning.

You can't know what someone is planning, regardless of how informed you are. You can speculate, but by it's nature, speculation has a large amount of doubt. And how can you get enraged when there is a significant doubt that it will ever come to pass?

This has nothing to do with coming to a different conclusion. This has to do with jumping to conclusions. Show me the basis for your belief--the verified quotes, the reasoning you used to come to your conclusions--and we can discuss it. But when your reasoning is that you know what someone else is thinking, what he is going to do in the future, you are condemning someone for actions they have not taken and may never take. That is not reasonable judgement.

Anyone can prove anything using that reasoning.

You can't even guess correctly what I'm thinking, yet you consider it reasonable to know what Obama is really planning?

You can make judgements about what you are informed about. But here you are making judgements about things that you can't know about. Yes, I'm being condensating and mocking. Because when you begin treating speculation the same as reasoned opinions and facts, you have left the realm of reason. And what else is there to do but treat it with scorn?

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
This may be the result of a deep-seated unhappiness among conservatives with the fact that Obama is a very good presenter and speaker, and that having him speak to children will make them admire him (and, by corollary, his presidency).

In fact, I'm almost certain that's what this is about... I'd call it image-envy. The GOP doesn't have anybody at the national level who is popular right now, and so it's annoying to them.

LOL I think the idea that Obama is a golden tongue is about finished by now. He's a bore with a teleprompter, and a disaster away from it. The declining ratings for his press conferences should put the zing to your theory.

But keep theorizing about those animals on the other side of the political spectrum. It shows what a narrow, nasty sort of fellow you are, at least.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
And you think it was the assault rifles that finally turned GWB, eh? That was the key?
No. I think it was the noise.
As other posters have pointed out, when you mobilize enough crazy, you can drown out all legitimate conversation. Bush's immigration reform was one of the few good ideas he ever had -- and he never got to make an honest case for it, because the crazies were out there lying about it from the moment that trial balloon got floated.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"He's a bore with a teleprompter, and a disaster away from it. The declining ratings for his press conferences should put the zing to your theory."

Oh, whatever. I find him the most eloquent and informative major political figure in ages.

There is this little thing called subjectivity, you know.

Of course, to a solipsist, there is nothing BUT the subjective.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"It shows what a narrow, nasty sort of fellow you are, at least. "

What a ****.

(tot for tat, hobbs: you gonna let her keep up with this ****, we're gonna dish as she dishes)

I repeat: a friggin ****.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
You asked for examples of popular pressure circumventing something GWB wanted to do.
Yes, and the objection -- which was that this "popular pressure" consisted of the same crazies we're complaining about here -- is still absolutely relevant. If you're attempting to say, "hey, the crazy people aren't all that crazy," saying "look, they were crazy back then, too" isn't going to help you.
They were "crazy" for opposing a policy of the President? Really? That's really where you're coming down? Or were they crazy because they called and wrote their Senators and Reps and otherwise put political pressure to stop the proposed legislation? Or were they just de facto crazy because those Congresspeople actually listened to them, as opposed to the totally not-crazy people who do such things and don't succeed.

Really, please be specific. I'm just trying to nail down what constitutes "crazy" in this room. As a follow-up, tell me how the anti-Iraq War protesters were not crazy. Or perhaps the people protesting against warrantless wiretaps, the Patriot Act, etc.

They were "crazy" because they used lies and fearmongering to convince people to support them and ignore the actual facts.
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:

Not only are you speculating on what you think he will do, you are becoming enraged by your own speculation. You are blaming the President for things he hasn't done yet, based on your speculation on why something was written in a particular way. You even said that you knew what he was planning.

Excuse me, I'm not enraged. I'm making a judgment based on what I can see of the facts. I "know" because I see a pattern that's so obvious to me that I don't have any reason not to doubt it. I don't think I ever actually said "know," BTW. I said "you don't really believe he's going to..." etc.

If you think you need to explain to me that I'm not able to actually read another's thoughts and predict their actions... I strain to believe that that is actually the criticism you were making. You're backpedaling now.

Ironically, you're making a judgment about me on an even flimsier basis (on the basis of what you interpret about what I've written). I'm stating my views, and also trying to represent the views of other conservatives speaking out on the subject. Are you "crazy" for assuming that that means I'm enraged? There certainly are things Obama has done that have enraged me, and his narcissism is something I greatly dislike, but I defy you to show where I have expressed "rage" over this subject.

[ September 04, 2009, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
And you think it was the assault rifles that finally turned GWB, eh? That was the key?
No. I think it was the noise.
As other posters have pointed out, when you mobilize enough crazy, you can drown out all legitimate conversation. Bush's immigration reform was one of the few good ideas he ever had -- and he never got to make an honest case for it, because the crazies were out there lying about it from the moment that trial balloon got floated.

As is boilerplate for Obama supporters, genuine political dissension automatically = lies and misinformation.

If only people really knew the facts and stopped all that idiot counter-arguing, they would certainly agree with you. 100%. I'm sure you're sure of it.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
As is boilerplate for Obama supporters, genuine political dissension automatically = lies and misinformation.
No, I mean actual lies.
Really. Out and out, knowing, fully-aware lies.

These lies are well-documented. You will not need to search hard to find them. You can even Google something like "immigration reform lies" and come up with a pile of relevant links, without even having to work at it.

It's one thing to "disagree." It's another thing to lie about what your opponent is saying and about what he's proposing and about what he intends, and then continue to do it even after he's tried to correct the record. Over and over.

The idea here is that if you repeat the lie loud enough, often enough, the media will report that "some people are saying..." the lie, and won't stick out its neck to actually identify the claim as a bald-faced lie. And if the lie is more entertaining than the truth, or permits some people to cling to their preconceptions, it may never get dislodged.

So far, trying to deal rationally with this sort of approach hasn't worked for any national figure who's tried it. I'm not sure if it could.

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DonaldD
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And that (to answer the question posed by tonylovern on another thread) is why political discourse in the US is so polarized. If US politics in the recent past has proved anything, it's that the big lie actually works, and there is just about no downside if properly implemented. (no downside, that is, if you don't care about honest discourse and thus, actual, reasoned political decisions).
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PSRT
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I would rephrase that, Donald, to be "Unless the only care you have is partisan political victory."
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DonaldD
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To add - I remember having that discussion with FIJC a couple of years ago, and trying to explain that being able to drive policy by misrepresentation is not equivalent to winning the 'war of ideas' since the purported ideas are not even represented in the debate.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
And you think it was the assault rifles that finally turned GWB, eh? That was the key?
No. I think it was the noise.
As other posters have pointed out, when you mobilize enough crazy, you can drown out all legitimate conversation. Bush's immigration reform was one of the few good ideas he ever had -- and he never got to make an honest case for it, because the crazies were out there lying about it from the moment that trial balloon got floated.

As is boilerplate for Obama supporters, genuine political dissension automatically = lies and misinformation.

If only people really knew the facts and stopped all that idiot counter-arguing, they would certainly agree with you. 100%. I'm sure you're sure of it.

If they actually used facts for their counter-arguments, that would be one thing, but it doesn't take much time at all reading down through non-partisan fact checking sites like factcheck.org and politifact.com to begin to see a strong pattern of where the misinformation is mostly coming from.

These sites ahve reliably, over time, not only called out both sides for their inaccuracy, but actually provided the real data nad research to back up their positions- they never ask people to believe them just because they say so.

And there are indeed spin, inaccuracy, and lies coming from every corner, but the largest share by far is from the conservative end of the specturm.

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Gina
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Of course. Conservatives are just liars.

I don't know why I bother.

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Gina
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Oh, and racist. How could I forget. The thread already went there a few posts up.
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MattP
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quote:
Of course. Conservatives are just liars.

I don't know why I bother.

You don't parse well. The majority of lies can come from the conservative end of the spectrum without making a blanket assertion about the honesty of conservatives in general.

For instance, though I know you disagree, I consider a huge amount of the high-profile misinformation to be sourced from Glenn Beck. That's just one person pushing out a lot of information that I believe to be false or misleading. There is no one of similar stature and influence on the left doing the same sort of blatant demonizing of the right.

[ September 04, 2009, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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Lina Inverse
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
[LOL]

If that's all you meant, I apologize for the " **** You."

Field trips were pretty much the highlights of my public schooling experience.

LOL lateness, but sorry, I was too flippant there. (Though having said that, if I ended up banned for feeling sorry for kids who don't get to take field trips, I think I would wear that as a badge of honor [LOL] )
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Daruma28
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Wayward - Yeah...because I don't join the rest of you kool aid drinkers in singing the praises of the great one, you dare say I don't have the skills of critical thinking or cannot extrapolate the intentions of this address? Oh please. Frankly, I could care less about what Obama is going to say.

All I'm pointing out here is that this approach, this ploy...it's reminiscent of the exact sort of thing Hitler did. The parallels ARE certainly there. The fact that you guys either deny it, think it's crazy to point it out or whatever merely demonstrates that you do not care if Hitler propagandization and indoctrination techniques are employed on the youth AS LONG AS IT'S YOUR BRAND OF LEFT WING LIBERAL PROPAGANDA THAT'S BEING INDOCTRINATED INTO THEIR MINDS.

Pyrtolin - the idea that children should be given the right to vote has to be the dumbest, most idiotic thing you've ever written here. Is this the height of "enligthened thinking?

Ken - You have become the exact leftwing inverse of the Daruma28 that began posting here back in the hey days of the brand new Dubya Presidency (only more verbose...but just as vehement). There is nothing Obama can do for which you will not defend, rationalize, justify or excuse. Difference is, you seem to be taking any criticism of Obama personally.

I'm no "chicken little" on this topic. I just think this represents a pretty significant shift in politics in this country - a further shift to a childish, emotion-based level of discourse.

Frankly, I'd be just as critical of ANY politician of any stripe that attempted a stunt like this.

It IS reminiscent of Hitler's use of propaganda to influence the youth. The attempt to marginalize this observation by using ridiculous things like "Hitler built roads...Hitler used a pulpit" are quite pathetic. Propagandizing the youth is far more subversive than building infrastructure or using props. The fact that some of you equate them to make this justifiable simply shows YOUR inability to critically think...but to accept anything that this POLITICIAN does as good.

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DonaldD
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Heck, I've never even heard of Glenn Beck before this thread, but just this morning on the radio I heard a Republican strategist characterize him as being a problem and a source of misinformation.
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Lina Inverse
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Daruma, is there anything a politician can say to children that would not be propagandizing?
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Ken - You have become the exact leftwing inverse of the Daruma28 that began posting here back in the hey days of the brand new Dubya Presidency (only more verbose...but just as vehement). There is nothing Obama can do for which you will not defend, rationalize, justify or excuse. Difference is, you seem to be taking any criticism of Obama personally."

Um, not to put too fine a point on it, D, but... bull****.

I like honest discourse. Obama's just this guy I voted for.

Get real, D.

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
For instance, though I know you disagree, I consider a huge amount of the high-profile misinformation to be sourced from Glenn Beck. That's just one person pushing out a lot of information that I believe to be false or misleading. There is no one of similar stature and influence on the left doing the same sort of blatant demonizing of the right.

It's really surreal. I think liberals must be living in a different country than I am. It's pretty comical, actually: That the media can so uniformly and so blatantly be lathering Obama with adoration, giving him every bit of cover he doesn't even ask for, and the few people who actually have the temerity to report anything that's critical of him cause the left to FLIP OUT.

Glenn Beck is the target this week. A few weeks ago it was Rush Limbaugh. The absolute frenzy over Sarah Palin is not long on the horizon.

Oh, the agony! Glenn Beck is reporting what federal employees- our employees- said and wrote in their own words, and it's a travesty.

In similar vein, the few conservatives who have been so self-flagellating as to actually participate here- me being one of them, God knows why- are dishonest, ignorant, gullible, and probably racist, while the liberal posters are sane, principled, reasonable, objective, fair, and intelligent. Do you guys polish your halos at night and hang them up by your beds?

[ September 04, 2009, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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D: I will try to share my feelings on this.

1st, I started a thread the other day, "what I call a real thread", that gives some insight to how I relate to the whole liberal/conservative model

2nd; I have repreatedly said lately that there are what I perceive to be real problems with Obamadmin.

I don;t like the cover the banks are getting after the bailout.

I don't like the duck'n'dodge I see about government eavesdropping.

There are decisions coming from the Attorney General that re-endorse scandalous decisions made by the previous administration. There's a governor in jail on patently trumped-up charges and they gave their seal of reapproval to it.

And others, but I'm burnt out right now.

Here's my Obamabias: yes, I do place hope in the man. That hope is as subjective as all hope.

I am still waiting for the other shoes to drop, though. It's still only his 1st year. There could be political wisdom behind some of his foot-dragging on torture reform (another thing I'm unhappy with) and things I've already mentioned. I am still willing to hope he's being crazy like a fox.

Give ma friggin year with my chosen president, goddammit! I will make a decisive judgment at the end of his 3rd year, when ll have made whatever changes it does.

Meanwhile, I write letters and all that.

What I will NOT do is vote for Obama again if, by that 3rd year, I've concluded my hope was significantly misplaced.

I've said most of this before at Ornery.

I refuse, however, to honor with and dignity of respect, the current paranoid hogspittle coming out of the activist right, from birther jive to omigod he's talking to the schoolkids! That stuff is vile, far too virulent, slanderous, and degrading of intelligent political discourse or active civics.

It's crap.

If you guys are so suspicious of Obama, then work on those things where we KNOW he's backpedaling.

But then, maybe you like torture, and letting the banks have their cake and eat it too and then **** in our driveway. Maybe you like the government eavesdropping on your calls.

My fave news site is this:

http://www.unknownnews.org/

Helen and Harry are libertarians, BTW.

Don't tell me what I think, boyo. Even when I've made nosy, motive-inferring analyses of some of your expressed belief models, I've done so based on what you actually say, not what I thought you meant. Do the same for me or go **** a pig. This is Ornery, goddammit. We still have a few shreds of discursive decency, and oldsters like you would, I'd hope, promote them rather than deface them.

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kenmeer livermaile
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I am throughly on board with Helen and Harry's credo:

What we believe

We believe in liberty and justice for all, so of course, we oppose many US government policies. This doesn't mean we're anti-American, redneck scum, pinko commies, militia members, or terrorist-sympathizers. It means we believe in freedom, as more than merely a cliché.

We believe you have the right to live your own life as you choose, and others have the equal right to live their lives as they choose. It's not complicated.

We believe freedom leads to peace, progress, and prosperity, while its opposite -- oppression -- leads to war, terrorism, poverty, and misery.

We believe it's preposterously stupid to hate people because of their appearance, their race or nationality, their religion or lack of religion, how they have sex with other consenting adults, etc. There are far more apropos reasons to hate most people.

We believe in questioning ourselves, our assumptions, each other -- and we especially believe in questioning authority (the more authority, the more questions). We believe obedience is a fine quality in dogs and young children, but not in adults.

Like America's right-wingers, we believe in individual responsibility, hard work to get ahead, and stern punishment for serious crimes. We believe big government should not be blindly trusted.

But unlike most right-wing leaders, we mean it.

Like America's left-wingers, we believe in equal treatment under law, war as a last (not first) resort, and sensible stewardship of natural resources. We believe big business should not be blindly trusted.

But unlike most left-wing leaders, we mean it.

Like libertarians, we believe it's wrong and reprehensible to arrest people for what they think, believe, look like, wear, eat, smoke, drink, inhale, inject, or otherwise do to themselves.

But unlike many libertarians, we're not obsessed with the gold standard, we don't believe incorporation is humanity's highest achievement, and we don't believe everything in life comes down to dollars and cents. We've read and enjoyed Ayn Rand's novels, but we understand that they're works of fiction.

We're skeptical, and we're sick of so-called 'journalists' who aren't skeptical at all.

A reader asks, what are our solutions?

We propose no solutions except common sense, which is never common. We like the principles of democracy, and the ideals broadly described as 'American'. The US Constitution is a fine and workable framework for solutions, when it's actually read and thoughtfully understood by intelligent statesmen and women. So, no manifestos from us. We don't dream that big, and if there's one thing the world doesn't need it's yet another manifesto.

Our suggestion is: think.

A fact-based instead of faith-based approach leads to solutions for most of the recurring issues of our time, from abortion to global climate change, pollution to universal health care, careful but real regulation of industry and economy, hunger, war, terror, human rights for humans not for corporations, science not religious doctrine in public schools, equal protection and prosecution under law, etc. Approach problems without glorifying stupidity, without demonizing intelligence, and answers usually come into focus.

These pages are published by Harry and Helen Highwater, happily married low-income nom de plumes and rabble-rousers from Madison, Wisconsin (with a few friends scattered around the world helping out).

We try to spotlight news that hasn't gotten enough (or appropriate) attention in American media, along with our opinions and yours.

We bang our keyboards against the wall, because it doesn't hurt as much as banging our heads.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Nice list of crazy lies about Obamadmin:

loony lies

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
The letter-writers weren't the problem. The people who, through lies and terror, made honest discussion of the issue impossible were the problem.

This.
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MattP
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quote:
It's really surreal. I think liberals must be living in a different country than I am. It's pretty comical, actually: That the media can so uniformly and so blatantly be lathering Obama with adoration, giving him every bit of cover he doesn't even ask for, and the few people who actually have the temerity to report anything that's critical of him cause the left to FLIP OUT.
Why is it all one extreme or the other for you? I have plenty of problems with Obama. He hasn't come through on many of the pledges that I really care about and I am intensely annoyed because of that. I still hold out *some* hope because I still think there is a better chance with him than with someone from the other side of the isle, but it is by no means unicorns and rainbows when it comes to my opinion of Obama.

That said, the stuff like Beck is spewing is ludicrous. It's the same spittle-flecked ranting that came out of fringe Left when Bush was in office, but in that case it really was the fringe, not a national broadcast with an audience of over 2 million.

Search the logs. See if me or Tom or me or anyone else here complaining about Beck called Bush a fascist or Nazi or claim that he masterminded 9/11. That was out there, but we recognized that even though we didn't like the guy that these claims were rediculous.

The problem isn't disagreement with Obama - there's plenty there to disagree with and a lot of it I'm happy to join in on. The problem is that anything goes now and Beck is leading the charge on manufacturing any controversy he possibly can. Somehow the artwork placed in Rockafeller plaza in the early 20th century reflects Obama's communist goals? What the hell?

[ September 04, 2009, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Do you guys polish your halos at night and hang them up by your beds?"

We wear them as cock rings while we deflower virgin minds.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
Of course. Conservatives are just liars.

The problem is that they aren't, just that the loudest ones are, and it trickles down. Someone who cares enough to get informed turns on the "news" and gets thirty minutes of hate-mongering and doesn't care enough to spend thirty minutes fact-checking comes out with some crazy lies filed away in their brain under the heading of truth. It isn't their fault that the "news" is catering to what the "news" thinks that people want to hear, or to what the "news" wants people to hear, or to what advertisers want the "news" to be during their advertisements.
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kenmeer livermaile
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'Give ma friggin year with my chosen president, goddammit! I will make a decisive judgment at the end of his 3rd year, when ll have made whatever changes it does.'

should read: '...when COngress will have made whatever...'

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
That said, the stuff like Beck is spewing is ludicrous. It's the same spittle-flecked ranting that came out of fringe Left when Bush was in office, but in that case it really was the fringe, not a national broadcast with an audience of over 2 million.



I think, given the slavering adoration lavished on Obama from the media, and their earnest promotion of liberal causes, any liberal should be embarrassed to criticize conservative media outlets. I don't care if they're sticking pins in Obama voodoo dolls on air.

I haven't seen Beck's show that often since it's on quite late during the week in our area, but when I see spittle or lies, I'll let you know. Hasn't happened yet. He's a bit of a drama queen at times, but nothing like what people say about him as far as I can see.

quote:
The problem is that anything goes now and Beck is leading the charge on manufacturing any controversy he possibly can.
Uh uh, not buying it. A few months ago Rush Limbaugh was in charge of the Republican party, now it's Glenn Beck? Don't you ever suspect you're being played by David Axelrod and MoveOn.org? I've seen this "racist right-wing hatemonger!!!1!!!" machine try to roll over one too many people now. The reason they've turned on Beck now is just what you mentioned: He's turning out to be successful. The left went moon-howling crazy over Sarah Palin for the same reason, because she was a threat.

Beck now has plenty of rope to hang himself, given his current popularity and his turn in front of the MoveOn.org/ Axelturfing steamroller, but I expect it will turn out to be about as substantive as the attacks on Palin and Limbaugh.

[ September 04, 2009, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"Do you guys polish your halos at night and hang them up by your beds?"

We wear them as cock rings while we deflower virgin minds.

[LOL]

We disagree on much, but I still appreciate this sort of quip. Well played ken.

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scifibum
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quote:
I think, given the slavering adoration lavished on Obama from the media, and their earnest promotion of liberal causes, any liberal should be embarrassed to criticize conservative media outlets. I don't care if they're sticking pins in Obama voodoo dolls on air.
Gina, don't you want to hold your spokesmen to some kind of standard? Or is the only criterion that matters is that at least they're not slavering Obama worshippers?
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