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Author Topic: Recruiting the children
MattP
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quote:
Don't you ever suspect you're being played by David Axelrod and MoveOn.org?
I have no idea what these people are saying. My conservative friends are feeding me conspiracy theories, I'm watching Glenn Beck, and then digging up what I can about the actual facts of the matter though some stuff like his communist art tour through Rockafeller plaza is so over the top that there's really no point.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"We disagree on much, but I still appreciate this sort of quip. Well played ken. "

If your house burned down, I'd let you move in.

But this would probably be after you'd kicked my ass in a fight I started but couldn't finish.

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scifibum
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In case you're wondering, Gina, here's some frothing from Beck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGeZQrpZbjI

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kenmeer livermaile
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Fawning admiration is one thing; character assassination by unrepentant and repeated lies is another.

Interesting set of values you endorse.

[ September 04, 2009, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
A few months ago Rush Limbaugh was in charge of the Republican party, now it's Glenn Beck? Don't you ever suspect you're being played by David Axelrod and MoveOn.org? I've seen this "racist right-wing hatemonger!!!1!!!" machine try to roll over one too many people now. The reason they've turned on Beck now is just what you mentioned: He's turning out to be successful. The left went moon-howling crazy over Sarah Palin for the same reason, because she was a threat.

Beck now has plenty of rope to hang himself, given his current popularity and his turn in front of the MoveOn.org/ Axelturfing steamroller, but I expect it will turn out to be about as substantive as the attacks on Palin and Limbaugh.

I can't speak for everyone else, but my reason for blaming Glenn Beck is that the crazy conservatives in my family spout off untrue and twisted fragments of truth that he has told them as if they were the truth and then call me a liberal when I find them primary sources showing them that what he said wasn't true, or was a twisted and warped version of the truth.
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kenmeer livermaile
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It's hard for me not to believe that Beck will do a major crash'n'burn.

That's what you have to admire about Rush. A bit of oxycontin slander, really of little substance, but basically he's kept his face egg-free for a long time in the public spotlight.

I don't foresee that for Beck. I think there's gonna be some kind of career-disgracing expose or whatnot.

Sort of a Jim Baker/Tammy Faye thing.

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Daruma28
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I doubt it ken.

I used to listen to Beck...several years ago, when I was still a Republican cheerleader.

Didn't watch his TV show, but his radio show was actually quite hilarious. He's quick witted, and very self-deprecating and sarcastic. He was very entertaining...but he comes across as very honest.

He has gone into painful details about his failings in his past...how he had fallen into alcoholism and drug addiction, how his first marriage failed and so on.

There's no dirt to expose, presumably because he's already put it all out there.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Didn't watch his TV show, but his radio show was actually quite hilarious. He's quick witted, and very self-deprecating and sarcastic. He was very entertaining...but he comes across as very honest.

"He has gone into painful details about his failings in his past...how he had fallen into alcoholism and drug addiction, how his first marriage failed and so on.

"There's no dirt to expose, presumably because he's already put it all out there."

reminds me of a certain former president. [Wink]

But seriously: it needn't be closet skeletons. I think the man's gonna crack up.

If he was sincere back then, then now he's either cracking up or become extremely insincere. He knowingly spouts blatantly untrue bligewater.

Cognitive dissonance is a mother.

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DonaldD
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Glenn Beck is saying that Canada has a lottery to decide who gets treated..? Really?
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Lina Inverse
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Yeah, at the end, the unluckiest Canadian gets stoned. Trufax.
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kenmeer livermaile
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It's funny that the worst Ministry of Truth is not some government bureau but a buncha cynical shills.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Lina Inverse:
Yeah, at the end, the unluckiest Canadian gets stoned. Trufax.

[LOL]

Maybe we could get Republicans on board by allowing them to hunt the losers? As long as we are revisiting middle school lit.?

[ September 04, 2009, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I've seen this "racist right-wing hatemonger!!!1!!!" machine try to roll over one too many people now.
I certainly agree that far too many "spokespersons" for the Right are hatemongers. It would be nice for the Right to give MoveOn a break and start listening to rational people, wouldn't it?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Pyrtolin - the idea that children should be given the right to vote has to be the dumbest, most idiotic thing you've ever written here. Is this the height of "enligthened thinking?

My older son is 6 right now. In 12 years (a decade or so) he will be given the right to vote.

Children do not remain children forever, and the time at which they do get the vote is far to late to just begin teaching them how to be responsible citizens and that their vote and their political activity level matter.

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
I think, given the slavering adoration lavished on Obama from the media, and their earnest promotion of liberal causes, any liberal should be embarrassed to criticize conservative media outlets. I don't care if they're sticking pins in Obama voodoo dolls on air.
Gina, don't you want to hold your spokesmen to some kind of standard? Or is the only criterion that matters is that at least they're not slavering Obama worshippers?
I'm saying when I hear liberals whining about such things, I can only shake my head and laugh.

Edit: Follow-up question, is Keith Olbermann a threat to democracy? Should he be held accountable? Or don't you care because his show is so lame?

[ September 05, 2009, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I've seen this "racist right-wing hatemonger!!!1!!!" machine try to roll over one too many people now.
I certainly agree that far too many "spokespersons" for the Right are hatemongers.
Of course you do.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
It IS reminiscent of Hitler's use of propaganda to influence the youth. The attempt to marginalize this observation by using ridiculous things like "Hitler built roads...Hitler used a pulpit" are quite pathetic. Propagandizing the youth is far more subversive than building infrastructure or using props. The fact that some of you equate them to make this justifiable simply shows YOUR inability to critically think...but to accept anything that this POLITICIAN does as good.

You have yet to show that he is promoting anything more than the more or less universally agreed upon tenants that education is important and living in a healthy society requires active civic engagement. Propaganda is the in the content of the message, not in using standard techniques to get people to pay attention to it and keep it in their minds.

Roads can allow civilian traffic as easily as they can allow tanks to travel. The fact that tanks can use them doesn't make them inherently weapons of war.

You are actively conflating two separate pieces and calling the innocuous one out on the flaws of the dangerous one.

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DonaldD
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Except that Daruma, like Gina, believes that all Obama actions have nefarious motivations a priori. Where Daruma differs is that he ascribes these motives to all non-Libertarian politicians (and then some)
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
This may be the result of a deep-seated unhappiness among conservatives with the fact that Obama is a very good presenter and speaker, and that having him speak to children will make them admire him (and, by corollary, his presidency).

In fact, I'm almost certain that's what this is about... I'd call it image-envy. The GOP doesn't have anybody at the national level who is popular right now, and so it's annoying to them.

LOL I think the idea that Obama is a golden tongue is about finished by now. He's a bore with a teleprompter, and a disaster away from it. The declining ratings for his press conferences should put the zing to your theory.

But keep theorizing about those animals on the other side of the political spectrum. It shows what a narrow, nasty sort of fellow you are, at least.

Gina - I don't understand why you've made a personal attack against me. I suggested that the GOP is unhappy with a setting in which children may admire the president, and we can dispute whether or not there is anybody nationally popular with the GOP right now... but please keep it above a personal attack on my character. That was totally uncalled for. Nothing I've said is grounds for it. If accusing the GOP of "image-envy" is nasty, you've said far worse about liberals.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
Follow-up question, is Keith Olbermann a threat to democracy? Should he be held accountable? Or don't you care because his show is so lame?

Since he hasn't been able to get a meaningful portion of his intended audience follow him, no, he isn't a threat. He is a potential threat, but he hasn't shown the ability to get the masses to believe his flavor is lies.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"Gina - I don't understand why you've made a personal attack against me."

I thought I'd answered that one?

(fumbles under his Great Karnak turban lampshade for his teleprompter remote...)

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hobsen
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Gina did make a personal attack upon JoshCrow; but he seems to have responded to it more than adequately, in the process making her look bad. Like a number of others on Ornery, Gina can have a sharp tongue; and now and then she gets carried away. No further comment on this particular exchange seems necessary, but that sort of thing should be avoided whenever possible.

Edited to add: KL, you're showing your age. Soon few will remember who the Great Karnak was. Charlie McCarthy anyone? Hula hoops?

[ September 05, 2009, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: hobsen ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Charlie McCarthy huluing a hoop: now THAT'S ventrilquism, folks.

hobbs, while the subjective rancor of my more... livid... pronouncements do not deny their fully subjective vitriol, it is rare, very rare, when I am not still assiduously working on making a usefully valid point toward elevating the rhetoric at hand...

I offer this olive branch detoxified hemlock for the Socratic in us all:

archeological media treasure

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kenmeer livermaile
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p.s. well played, hobbs, IMO.
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kenmeer livermaile
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I think that is one of the most amazing and precious moments of TV EH-VARR...
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kenmeer livermaile
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This, however,

"in the process making her look bad."

needs citation references... [wikiedit]

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Gina - I don't understand why you've made a personal attack against me. I suggested that the GOP is unhappy with a setting in which children may admire the president, and we can dispute whether or not there is anybody nationally popular with the GOP right now... but please keep it above a personal attack on my character. That was totally uncalled for. Nothing I've said is grounds for it. If accusing the GOP of "image-envy" is nasty, you've said far worse about liberals.

Sitting around speculating about the psychological state of people on the other side of the aisle- in patronizing, insulting terms- is nasty and narrow. Conservatives are like a cornered animal, have image-envy, it's so annoying to them that Obama is popular... What the hell do you know? Naturally it is your right to sit around and make patronizing speculations of the sort, but I don't have to like it. (edit: particularly when the people you're talking about, some of them, are present)

At least you left out racist.

[ September 05, 2009, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
Follow-up question, is Keith Olbermann a threat to democracy? Should he be held accountable? Or don't you care because his show is so lame?

Since he hasn't been able to get a meaningful portion of his intended audience follow him, no, he isn't a threat. He is a potential threat, but he hasn't shown the ability to get the masses to believe his flavor is lies.
Gotta love the double standard.
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Gina:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshCrow:
Gina - I don't understand why you've made a personal attack against me. I suggested that the GOP is unhappy with a setting in which children may admire the president, and we can dispute whether or not there is anybody nationally popular with the GOP right now... but please keep it above a personal attack on my character. That was totally uncalled for. Nothing I've said is grounds for it. If accusing the GOP of "image-envy" is nasty, you've said far worse about liberals.

Sitting around speculating about the psychological state of people on the other side of the aisle- in patronizing, insulting terms- is nasty and narrow. Conservatives are like a cornered animal, have image-envy, it's so annoying to them that Obama is popular... What the hell do you know? Naturally it is your right to sit around and make patronizing speculations of the sort, but I don't have to like it. (edit: particularly when the people you're talking about, some of them, are present)

At least you left out racist.

Gina, I don't expect you to like such comments, but two things stand out here:
1) My comments were not particularly exceptional. You make similar remarks about liberals on this forum - in fact, I'd say this is pretty much standard forum behavior all around.
2) There was no need to make things personal. I'll bet if we met up in person we would probably find each other very different from whatever 'perceptions' get fostered here. By most accounts I'm an affable, easy-to-know guy. I'm sure you aren't like your forum-characterization here as well.

[ September 05, 2009, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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MattP
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quote:
Gotta love the double standard.
Um. You were presented with a single standard, by which one individual is assessed to be a threat and the other not. I can see saying it's a stupid standard, but I don't see how you can say it's a double standard. The fact of the matter is that people aren't going around repeating Olbermann talking points. He doesn't have influence. Not having influence sort of tends to dampen the "threat" factor, don't you think?
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
Gotta love the double standard.
The fact of the matter is that people aren't going around repeating Olbermann talking points.
Yes, they are. Since he and Maddow started using the term "teabagger," that has become the standard term on the left; MSNBC has been big in pushing the "crazed rightwing protester" meme, etc.

Regardless, I was asked if Beck should not be held accountable. If he should be, should not MSNBC? Shouldn't the rest of the entire media establishment be held accountable for the powdering of Obama's posterior prior to the election? *But I think I did get my answer. Yes, it is just because Olbermann is so lame. [Smile]

[ September 05, 2009, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
In case you're wondering, Gina, here's some frothing from Beck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGeZQrpZbjI

So, that's supposed to make me agree that Beck is spreading lies and misinformation?
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TommySama
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Gina, you really need to pay attention.

You said "I haven't seen Beck's show that often since it's on quite late during the week in our area, but when I see spittle or lies, I'll let you know.", and he posted that. I know there is no video, but I imagine spittle was flying.

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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
Gina, you really need to pay attention.

You said "I haven't seen Beck's show that often since it's on quite late during the week in our area, but when I see spittle or lies, I'll let you know.", and he posted that. I know there is no video, but I imagine spittle was flying.

That was his radio show, not the TV show. The woman was a hostile caller and basically called to insult him- I wonder that they even put her on, though perhaps she was calmer in the pre-screening.

I realize I'm supposed to be shocked about this. Sorry. [Smile] I do see from googling that the HuffPo crowd are all over it. The left's smear machine is impressive.

BTW I'll decide when I "really need to pay attention." This crowd is not deserving of it.

[ September 05, 2009, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Gina ]

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MattP
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quote:
Yes, they are. Since he and Maddow started using the term "teabagger," that has become the standard term on the left; MSNBC has been big in pushing the "crazed rightwing protester" meme, etc.
No. "Teabagger" started on the blogs. I remember when the Maddow thing came out a friend commented to me about how she'd picked up on the teabagger thing. Maddow and Olbermann were the ones doing the repeating in that case.
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MattP
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quote:
Regardless, I was asked if Beck should not be held accountable.
I thought you were asking about who was a threat. Clearly the one that is effective is the only one that might qualify. As far as who should be accountable? No one should be "accountable" for exercising free expression except in the sense that other people will exercise their own in response.
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TommySama
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You don't need to be shocked by it, you need to wake up and pay attention. You mentioned spittle flying, he provided it, so you changed the subject.
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
You don't need to be shocked by it, you need to wake up and pay attention. You mentioned spittle flying, he provided it, so you changed the subject.

Tommy, if you were really paying attention, you'd have noticed that I said "when I see..." This was a clip from the radio show. I was talking about Beck's TV show on Fox, which is where he has the millions of viewers. We were also talking about how dangerous his rhetoric towards Obama is, not that he hadn't been rude to someone, somewhere, ever in his life.

I've been watching Van Jones clips today. I'm sure you're all perfectly comfortable with his nuttiness. It's only conservative TV personalities who must be sober and uncontroversial. It's just incidental that that would really help the Democrats out on their agenda!

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kenmeer livermaile
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Wow. I had no idea Olbermann named the teabaggers teabaggers. I thought they did it themselves?

I gotta do more drugs.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Flying Spittle: great name for a forgotten British prog rock band.
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