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Author Topic: Examples of Personal Attacks
D Pace
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quote:
Me? I can't stand G2 as a poster,
-- Kenmeer Livermaile

quote:
Wow, an entire thread started just to take a personal shot at me and Ron. I'm flattered KL - really, it's pretty cool to know just how deeply I've dug into what little is left of your mind after a lifetime of drug abuse (you're about one brain cell from being a talking monkey, amigo). That kind of encouragement doesn't come often enough. I shall redouble my efforts to post more often about a wider variety of topics that specifically interest you so I can draw you ever deeper into the thread spamming you do with those increasingly more confused screeds as whatever you took takes hold and fuels you into the virulence which only comes from a heady dose of illegal narcotics and generalized ignorance.

Fortunately, I will miss it all. I have a Greasemonkey script that filters out almost everything you post. It's only when you actually start a thread that I see anything you write. If you laid off the drugs for a few days you might have noticed, I never respond to your posts.

-- G2

[ September 11, 2009, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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D Pace
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quote:
From the number of quotes, and y'all quoting G2 is forcing me to read the quotes he uses, it appears he is still incapable of formulating an intelligent adult argument on his own and resorts to other peoples words when he needs to do anything other than troll? Pity. He has the energy. He reminds me of WarsawPact without the intelligent and maturity.

The body is willing but the mind is weak. [Frown]

KE

-- KnightEnder


quote:

You know, I still wonder who tells you to say these things. You get it by email or something? You've consistently proven an inability to think for yourself - anyone that has to ask in internet forum how to handle expense reports, where to get his dental work done and how often to have sex with his wife is clearly lacking (Stacy must have been mortified). Who pulls your strings?

- G2
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Dave at Work
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A topic named "Lest We Forget" started on September 11th really should be about what happened on this date 8 years ago rather than dredging up more examples about active members of this forum behaving badly towards one another. We have plenty of the latter on plenty of other threads.
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TommySama
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Are you saying he's treated nasty, and then attacks much harder?
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RickyB
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I gotta admit I thought this thread would be about 9/11 as well.
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D Pace
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If I were going to re-post this I'd consider deleting the names, because I didn't mean this to be unproductive.

I also didn't mean to co-opt 9/11.

I think the intent is to really say

A) Can adults stop making personal attacks?

and

B) Can real adults see a difference between personal attacks of a childish nature (i.e. you're stupid, a moron, a dittohead, or a spineless liberal), and those are really, um, dare I say, Personal?

People that post here enough to be known and have an identity to the people that read make this an interesting and living place. At the same time by being known enough to have a backstory, words can cross from the ethereal to the intensely personal.

It just seems we should avoid doing that.

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G2
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Jesus Christ, I simply cannot be the primary topic of every thread. [Razz]


quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
Are you saying he's treated nasty, and then attacks much harder?

In my opinion, that's mostly true. I do fire first on occasion but sometimes I let the tone of one thread spill into another and sometimes I just like to be a little hyperbolic too (not so different from many here, it's ok to admit it - that the first step!).

But more importantly, to D Pace's questions. I think you miss the actual issue D, can adults stop making personal attacks here on this forum? Really, on any internet forum?

This is an anonymous internet forum where we remain completely detached from the consequences of what we say. You think Greg Davidson would have thrown out the semi-threat against me that he did if he was in the same room with me? No, of course he wouldn't. Not because he's scared or anything like that but because he knows it would not be socially acceptable behavior. Not only that but here, in the anonymity of internet fora, he is instead defended and encouraged by the other anonymous posters. I have been called many names, been subjected to more than one threat and am routinely personally attacked here but these actions that would be obviously over the line in the real world are instead celebrated and reinforced.

These fora, in many ways, bring out the worst in people and play to their baser instincts. This forum in particular celebrates the personal attacks and builds up a support structure among its members to continue them. There are no penalties for breaking the rules, no repercussions other than the occasional member pointing them out when he feels so inclined.

There is a moderator around here somewhere, or so it's claimed. But really, what's his power here? Suspension? Banning? Anyone with even a elementary understanding of how the web works can circumvent those so the penalty is at most an inconvenience.

You are right, we should avoid doing this. We should also get more exercise and eat better but people generally don't do what they should - especially if there are no consequences. It's the nature of this beast and I don't think anything is going to change anytime soon, if ever.

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Clark
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This forum, as well as most others, continues to answer this question each and every day with a resounding NO.
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tonylovern
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actually, theres a surprising number of us who aren't anonymous. many of us have shared personal information in good faith.

abusing that trust to try and one up someone is a pretty douchebag thing to do. you're certainly living up to your name.

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TommySama
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"You think Greg Davidson would have thrown out the semi-threat against me that he did if he was in the same room with me?"

Another example of hyperbolic rhetoric that dances on that fine line between lies and schizophrenia, and makes it damn near impossible to take you seriously.

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hobsen
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The thread title is getting changed, but the posts cited seem good examples of the sort of thing to avoid. On the other hand, they sound worse taken out of the context of the thread in which they originally appeared. If someone is replying to a post which should be expected to make him angry, replying sharply is more permissible, but some of these do go beyond what should ever be permitted.

Anyway this is the wrong date to start a thread with the title "Lest We Forget," so I shall reluctantly login and rename it. Assuming I can remember how to do so.

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Daruma28
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hobsen...when will you tire of this attempt at trying to herd cats? [LOL]
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hobsen
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Maybe I am becoming the resident scold.
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Greg Davidson
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G2. If you are sincere that you actually felt that my use of the English language implied that I would under other conditions physically attack you, then you should be comforted to know that was not my intention. On the other hand, your past behavior causes me to suspect that you may just be making up the mis-interpretation and the resultant over-reaction. Regardless of whether this is sincere or faux, it's not a big deal to me, from my perspective you have a right as a member of this forum to make stuff up, cite opinions without evidence, dodge accountability or do anything that you want to as long as it does not involve actions that could harm people outside this forum (and I have faith that you are not the kind of person to do the latter, it's one of the reason I have been comfortable using my own name and identifying personal details on this site - and this is not just in regard to you, but everyone here. I trust you even when you piss me off).

I don't think that I will enjoy debating you in the future, so I won't. I still wish you well in your life, I am sure that there are some values that we share, but just not enough to make dialogue here productive.

[ September 11, 2009, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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This topic seems worth a drop-in:

There are no people here. No hominems. There are only words. When you fully digest that, you'll realize there are no personal attacks in this medium.

'ad hominem' is frowned on because it makes no substantial argument on a given topic... unless the topic is the sum total of a posting identity's most prevalent mode of discussion.

Yes, words can hurt feelings. Yes, there are people somewhere behind these words and posting identities, and one assumes they have feelings. But they aren't here. All that is here are their WORDS.

If a poster experiences significant ad hominem responses from others, as I did in my early days as a poster, when the standard response to my posts was to dismiss them as 'mental masturbation' (a curious distinction, suggesting that some of us post together, four hands at the same keypad or something), then those ad hominems still are commenting on the posts themselves and not the poster.

The exceptions to this that I've seen are when posters have knowledge of other posters in life outside Ornery, and, for example, reveal a poster's real identity without another's permission or similar indiscretions. Or when a poster calls another poster a liberal or conservative (almost de regeur at Ornery) when it is after all the poster's prerogative alone to so declare themself. Or variations thereof. Indeed, calling another a liberal or dismissing their words as conservative claptrap is to 'ad homenimise' their words, tarring them w/ a (rather meaningless) label that only interferes with the process of using words to express and interpret actual ideas.

Waxing ad hominem for a moment, I'll say that only stupidheads (and there are plenty of them) waste their time with this ad hominem jive outside the strict definition of ad hominem as a logical fallacy.

ad hominem

As for the 'play nice chillun' school of moderation: we mostly discuss death, murder, corruption, fraud, political subterfuge, war, torture, genocide. Show me the nice in these subjects. 'Civility' is too often presented as 'putting a smile on it' or' biting your tongue'.

Bull. Civility in discourse is keeping a cool head and examining, as best as one's intellect allows, the ideas themselves and responding to them on the basis of precisely what those ideas say, based on one's best understanding of them, asking for clarification whenever one perceives ambiguity, and refraining from 'mere sophistry' except as a colorful aside not as an actual contribution of substance.

If someone loses their temper and says 'can;t you read, blockhead?!?", either one needs to read more carefully or ask for fuller clarification, or perhaps one is not conveying as clearly as one thought what one means to convey, or else (and this I hate and is something I already mentioned), someone is trying to put words in another's mouth or is just pulling cheap sophist tricks.

After these options have been exhausted, and still one part or another or both are 'talking past each other' or such, it is only fitting that one call the other on it, and at this point, in forceful hostile terms. Because at this point, *someone* is ****ting in the communal talkstream, and **** is ****.

[ September 11, 2009, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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hobsen
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You have made this point before, KL; and I do not agree.

As a defender of free speech, I should be pleased if our government sponsored a site on which absolutely anything could be posted. Of course the poster could subsequently be imprisoned for death threats against Obama, for example; but his post would remain to show he really thinks Obama should be killed.

But Infopop Corporation probably would not host such a site, perhaps because they worry about possible legal liability for incidents such as the one in which an Internet user in Germany went to England to murder a man with whom he had disagreed online. And the Cards would not support a forum which departed too far from their own standards. So you can talk about what "ought to be" but I shall continue to enforce some standards as to what is permitted here. If I get too discouraged by the task, I shall just depart and let someone else attempt it.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Words can also be used to declare an intent to commit a physical act in the world outside the internet, hobbes, yes. This is true. How it relates to the topic at hand is only tangential.

There is a distinction between a 'personal attack' that is in effect only a value judgment on a poster's words, as when poster a says of/to poster b: 'You stink', and a declaration of an intent to actually phsyically attack (whether through battery or, say, identity theft) the person presumably posting the words attributed to poster b.

Really. There is.

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hobsen
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Permitting those who post here to say a lot of things like "You stink" would probably drive away some of those I consider the better Ornery members. That is just my taste perhaps. But some forums do permit comments of that nature, and if they are frequent, I do not read those sites. If four out of five comments to an initial post are something like "You're still stupid, I see," and "And you're still a lying bitch," the comments are not worth reading. I want comments that address the topic of the thread, and I do not care what posters I do not know think of one another.

Otherwise people who use the word amphiboly on Ornery should be ostracized.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
G2. If you are sincere that you actually felt that my use of the English language implied that I would under other conditions physically attack you, then you should be comforted to know that was not my intention. On the other hand, your past behavior causes me to suspect that you may just be making up the mis-interpretation and the resultant over-reaction.

So I'm either lying or unable to understand your use of the English language? If you read that thread again, you'll see I'm *not* the only one that came to that conclusion - I'm just the only one accused of dishonesty or stupidity. That's the exact thing I'm talking about. You try to couch you snideness in a little softer language and you think you get a free pass that way and, if you're called on it, can be passive-aggressive and try to act wounded.

Tell you what, post up your address here. If it's within a few hours of me, I'll drive on over, get a little face time with you and you can force me to defend my remarks just as you said. I'll give you just what you want. You should be comforted to know I intend the exact same thing you intended. What's your interpretation of that? We're gonna just hug it out cause I'm sure that's what you meant right? Right.


quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
I don't think that I will enjoy debating you in the future, so I won't. I still wish you well in your life, I am sure that there are some values that we share, but just not enough to make dialogue here productive.

See, I don't think you can avoid it. I'm very nearly the only non-liberal left. Redskullvw went from frequent posting to nearly nothing. In fact Greg, one of your last responses to Redskullvw was in total, "HYPERBOLE ALERT, You are very wrong." I suppose that hackneyed response ( [Eek!] ) is what you call productive debate. Yeah, sure it is.

Gina ... hmm, went from daily to nothing in the last week, could be another successful effort here. sfallman, from once every couple of days to nothing in nearly 2 weeks, looking good there. If you could run me off, perhaps you could all focus on Daruma and finally be repulsive and vitriolic enough to drive him off too.

I'm very nearly the only thing keeping this forum from becoming a liberal extremist echo chamber.

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Funean
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I cannot think of anyone on Ornery currently that I would classify as a liberal *extremist*. You need to get out more!

Michelle, cperry, jasonr, Daruma, and the Drake all qualify as comparatively conservative. So do I, in many respects. Paladine and FiredrakeRage are conservative, and so is philnotphil, mostly. Redskull is either traveling or ill, I forget which; he hasn't quit to my knowledge.

And it is my personal observation that most of the people here, with a few active exceptions, find certain behaviors objectionable regardless of the behavor--in other words, most of us find name-calling and failure to responsibly engage in productive debate off-putting, whether or not we agree with the person's politics. What we need to be more assertive about is expressing those objections to actions even if we agree with the ideas.

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hobsen
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Redskullvw made some good suggestions in an email to me about three weeks ago, but he said he was still too ill to go into as much detail as he would have liked. He hopes to be better in a couple of months, and I certainly hope everyone on Ornery wishes him a prompt recovery.
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Gina
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:

Gina ... hmm, went from daily to nothing in the last week, could be another successful effort here.

I lurk occasionally, but don't plan to post with any regularity. I'll pop in when I want to see what the sneering liberals are talking about.

There are some contexts where I'll put up with Obama rah-rah, but there has to be some sort of mitigating return, such as the fact that I actually like the people engaged in it or there's some humor in the mix. The combination of nastiness and snobbery around here is just odious. I mean, who needs it?

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RickyB
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"There are some contexts where I'll put up with Obama rah-rah,"

I challenge you to name one poster who qualifies for "Obama rah rah" and back it up with a single post as example.

In contrast, I would have no problem naming "anti Obama at all costs" posters and backing it up with almost any of their posts.

And no, arguing with the latter is NOT an example of the former, nor is a general support for Obama or his policies. You didn't say that. You said "rah rah". I am sicking and tired of this pathetic tactic where anything other than bare-toothed hatred for Obama (or anything) constitutes cheerleading.

But hey, I for one will certainly not keep you here by force if you feel we're too "rah rah".

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
I have been called many names, been subjected to more than one threat and am routinely personally attacked here but these actions that would be obviously over the line in the real world are instead celebrated and reinforced.


Yes G2 but if you said the things you say here in the tangible world in politically mixed company you'd face consequences of one kind or another anyway. At best you'd be ostracized, and it's likely some one would ask you to "discuss things" outside. I suspect you enjoy making people angry and seeing how much you can stir things up here. If that's your game don't complain about a few harsh words fired back at you. If its not what you're about you need to learn to moderate your tone.
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
quote:
I have been called many names, been subjected to more than one threat and am routinely personally attacked here but these actions that would be obviously over the line in the real world are instead celebrated and reinforced.


Yes G2 but if you said the things you say here in the tangible world in politically mixed company you'd face consequences of one kind or another anyway. At best you'd be ostracized, and it's likely some one would ask you to "discuss things" outside. I suspect you enjoy making people angry and seeing how much you can stir things up here. If that's your game don't complain about a few harsh words fired back at you. If its not what you're about you need to learn to moderate your tone.
What makes you think I'm complaining? You're putting words in my mouth. This is, once again, where someone like you comes in and infers something through the prism of your desired reality and tries to make something I say conform to it. The things I say here are in repsonse to the attacks. I don't enjoy making people angry - that's you're unfounded accusation based on your desired reality again. However, I don't enjoy unwarranted and unfounded attacks and a weak, biased moderator that allows it. I will stand up for myself and I know that frustrates the liberals here. The accusations, insults and occasional threats they routinely throw around are supposed to shut down discussion and when I don't play along they get very upset and things get out of hand. I don't enjoy that but I also refuse to be intimidated by it.

I have no doubt that I will soon be suspended or banned since I won't simply cower down in the face of the hatred and venom that routinely occurs here. You can see hobsen revving himself up for it. However, you won't see him take action against those that make violent threats, follow from thread to thread - even where I'm not participating - and lob insults and other personal attacks or against those that start threads for the express purpose of creating the environment for such attacks. Those are acceptable here.

If that's your game don't complain about a few harsh words fired back at you or anyone else. If its not what you're about you need to learn to moderate your tone.

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kenmeer livermaile
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I doubt hobbes will suspend you unless you go totally foam-in-mouth. It's increasingly apparent to most folks here that you've got some kind of deep-seated issues. Hobbes is a man of compassion.

[ September 16, 2009, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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Viking_Longship
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G2 Do you really not see that people are hostile towards you because you radiate hostility?

You accused me once of lying about being in Russia. Are so you ignorant about your fellow Americans that you don't realize that "liar" is about as deadly an insult as you can call another American?

You're bringing this on yourself old man.

[ September 16, 2009, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:

You accused me once of lying about being in Russia. Are so you ignorant about your fellow Americans that you don't realize that "liar" is about as deadly an insult as you can call another American?


I mention that only as an example. Please don't subject us to some long-winded justification of an incident that I doubt you recall.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Oh come on, VL. Don't deny a man a chewtoy once you've waved it in front of him. [Wink]
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Are so you ignorant about your fellow Americans that you don't realize that "liar" is about as deadly an insult as you can call another American?
Seriously? I can think of a lot of things that would bother me more.
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kenmeer livermaile
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I bet you're from Russia, TomD. [Wink]

And I agree with VL. Calling someone a liar is to use fighting words as much as calling their mother a person of ill repute.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
G2 Do you really not see that people are hostile towards you because you radiate hostility?

You accused me once of lying about being in Russia. Are so you ignorant about your fellow Americans that you don't realize that "liar" is about as deadly an insult as you can call another American?

You're bringing this on yourself old man.

You've got to be kidding me. Liar is a deadly insult? You obviously don't pay much attention to the liberals around here.
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TomDavidson
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Oh, they're fighting words, sure. But a "deadly insult?" In all my time here, I've only been the recipient of one insult that I'd consider "deadly" -- assuming you don't count the times Pete implied I was knowingly complicit in the destruction of civilization.
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Viking_Longship
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Ok call them fighting words. It's up there with "lazy" for getting an American's back up.

G2 are you a baby boomer?

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kenmeer livermaile
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"I was knowingly complicit in the destruction of civilization."

You cultural genocidist, you.

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Wayward Son
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I believe that he was a nihilist, not a genocidist.

Keep your destructors of civilization straight, kenmeer. [Wink] [Smile]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Ok call them fighting words. It's up there with "lazy" for getting an American's back up.

G2 are you a baby boomer?

I thought about it but ultimately decided the dues were too high and the meetings lasted too long.
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Greg Davidson
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That was funny, I enjoyed that last comment G2!
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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by G2:
quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Ok call them fighting words. It's up there with "lazy" for getting an American's back up.

G2 are you a baby boomer?

I thought about it but ultimately decided the dues were too high and the meetings lasted too long.
Yeah the current meeting's been going on for over 60 years. [Smile]
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kenmeer livermaile
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I'm a Boomer. 53 years running. I don't want to see the meeting end although I know my time must come.
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