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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Are you in line for the H1N1 vaccine? (Page 7)

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Author Topic: Are you in line for the H1N1 vaccine?
hobsen
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Glad you finally got what is recommended, asmalls4.

Now I have to worry about my cat too.
quote:
A cat in Iowa has tested positive for the H1N1 virus, state officials confirmed this morning, "marking the first time a cat has been diagnosed with this strain of influenza," the association said in a statement.

"The cat, which has recovered, is believed to have caught the virus from someone in the household who was sick with H1N1. There are no indications that the cat passed the virus on to any other animals or people," the statement said.


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MattP
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quote:
It's all just theories.
Not even that. Theories reliably describe data and make measurable predictions about future results. The vaccine/autism stuff is a mishmash of anecdote-based speculation and post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning.
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Pete at Home
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It's kind of hard to see anything otherwise when your son goes into a fever and then loses the ability to speak within hours of receiving the MMR vaccine. Especially when some of the physical symptoms look like an autoimmune disorder.
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OpsanusTau
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You know that if it's an autoimmune disorder, it is not really correct to describe it as being "because of" the vaccine, right?
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asmalls4
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Sci and I both got the H1N1 vaccine the other day. Thank goodness that's done. A little less for me to stress about. But our sons PTA did let us know that there a quite a few students at his school that have been confirmed to have the H1N1 virus. They mentioned 5 students and than a bunch of parents came on to say that their kids also had it. I just saw an article in the SL Tribune that said the swine flu appeared to be slowing down here in Utah. Guess they didn't check everywhere. It seems to just be getting started around here.
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Colin JM0397
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Yet vaccination reactions are linked to autoimmune disorders.

Ops, why do you keep alluding to an adverse reaction to MMR not being possible? What would have to happen for you to agree it was becuase of the vaccine; anaphalaxis within 15 seconds of injection? You know very well there are immediate adverse reactions, short term, and also long term adverse reactions. Granted, the longer you go, the more difficult to prove.

According to Pete's telling of it, that is a textbook case of what an adverse reaction looks like. Severe and accute within hours of the injection.

--------------------------------------------

Another good artilce on Mercola's site today that breaks down the indgredient list for the 4 types of vaccine being distributed in the US. Good news is squalene is off the list for now, but still up in the air.
A Review of Four Approved Swine Flu Vaccines’ Ingredients
quote:
...Below I will review the list of ingredients for the four swine flu vaccines that gained U.S. FDA approval on September 15. (As of this writing, GlaxoSmithKline is the only contracted vaccine manufacturer that has not yet gotten their swine flu vaccine approved.)

Please note that there may be additional anti-virals available that are being used to treat swine flu, and/or swine flu vaccines on the market in other countries, but this article only covers the following four vaccines that have received FDA approval for use in the US:

MedImmune (intranasal spray)
Novartis
Sanofi-Pasteur
CSL

These companies, along with GlaxoSmithKline, have all been awarded contracts by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) for development and production of more than 195 million doses of swine flu vaccine.

For more information, warnings and side effects of each ingredient, please follow the hyperlinks provided.

Addition: IMO it's very worth reading the list, especially the info on the nasal mist. There are specific warnings for kids on aspirin and adults over 50. Be careful and know what you are getting if you get those.

[ November 05, 2009, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Colin JM0397 ]

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Colin JM0397
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Asm, how do they know they are "confirmed cases"? The CDC stopped testing in July, and their initial numbers show that only about 5-10% of cases thought to be Swine flu are actually Swine Flu.

A diagnosis is a guess; only confirmed lab results can make it a confirmed case, and the state and national labs are not testing anything except, IIRC, in the case of death. If a kid is at home and recovers on her own, then it is absolutely not a “confirmed case”, it is a guess. These numbers, so far, do seem to mirror the typical flu season where everything flu-like is attributed to the flu, but usually less than 10% really is the actual flu.

This is both good and bad depending on how you look @ it.

Check out the CBS story on that posted a few pages back.

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asmalls4
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What was the problem with squalene?
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asmalls4
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Never mind. I am reading what is wrong with it. [Smile] Should have looked it up before I asked.
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OpsanusTau
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quote:

Ops, why do you keep alluding to an adverse reaction to MMR not being possible?

Where on earth would you get the idea that I think that?

It's certainly possible, and more than being possible, it happens.

There is a world of difference, however, between knowing that an event occurs sometimes and having a usefully predictive hypothesis about when and why it will occur. I mean, we can and do have some predictive information about some times when we would expect to see adverse vaccine reactions; and, surprise!, a fair amount of effort usually goes into trying to prevent that.
(Granted there are health professionals who are negligent about this - for instance Drake's appalling story, as well as my understanding of certain aspects of Pete's son's case - but that is not the ideal the medical community strives for.)

Look, here's a thought experiment:

Let us imagine that we think there may be a causative link between receiving a vaccine and developing autism.
Hypothesis: receiving MMR vaccine causes autism

Then we think to ourselves, "What observed result would we expect if our hypothesis is correct? I guess we'd have to see a higher rate of autism in the vaccinated population than in the unvaccinated."
Prediction: there is a higher rate of autism among vaccinated individuals than among unvaccinated

How can we test this hypothesis? Well, it seems pretty simple; we gather data about prevalence of autism in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. If our prediction is shown to be empirically true, we do not reject the hypothesis; if false, we do reject the hypothesis.

To my knowledge, so far investigations into this matter have shown that there is not a higher rate of autism among the vaccinated. Hypothesis not supported.

What does that leave as an explanation for cases like Pete's where an association is perceived between two events?
We accept that humans frequently perceive association where none exists, and we also acknowledge that an association may very well exist, without requiring that the causative link (vaccine causes autoimmune disorder) exist.

It is, in fact, more likely as far as I understand that a pre-existing autoimmune disorder would have been triggered by a vaccination. And if not the vaccination, then by something else. (See, for instance, Guillain-Barre syndrome with its high rate of idiopathic incidence.)

And while proper diagnosis and medical management of autoimmune disorders is an important and fascinating topic of conversation and research, it's not really at all accurate or particularly helpful to frame it in terms of "problems caused by vaccines", since so far there's not really any reason to think that's what is happening.

And this is without even talking about the potential relationship of autoimmune disorders to autism, which I honestly know not so much about. I'll know more in a few months when I'm done with physiology and neuroanatomy, and maybe we can talk more about it then.

[ November 05, 2009, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: OpsanusTau ]

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Colin JM0397
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22 studies and reports to test the hypothesis
quote:
Studies CONFIRMING Thimerosal as a Health Hazard

You deserve to know the facts, so here’s a compilation of recent studies and research clearly showing that thimerosal DOES HAVE a very real, detrimental impact on health, and that mercury toxicity is a reality in those suffering from the type of neurological damage seen in autistic children.

Most of these are from GenerationRescue.org and Fourteenstudies.org’s websites, which are great resources as they provide copies of the full studies so you can review all the evidence for yourself:

1. Environmental Health Perspectives, August, 2005

Fourteenstudies.org states: “This study demonstrates clearly and unequivocally that ethyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in vaccines, not only ends up in your brain, but leaves double the amount of inorganic mercury as methyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in fish.

This work is groundbreaking because little is known about ethyl mercury, and many health authorities have asserted that the mercury found in vaccines is the "safe kind."

This study also delivers a strong rebuke of the Institute of Medicine's recommendation in 2004 to no longer pursue the mercury-autism connection. Excerpt:

"A recently published IOM review (IOM 2004) appears to have abandoned the earlier recommendation [of studying mercury and autism] as well as back away from the American Academy of Pediatrics goal [of removing mercury from vaccines].

This approach is difficult to understand, given our current limited knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental neurotoxicity of thimerosal, a compound that has been (and will continue to be) injected in millions of newborns and infants."

2. Cell Biology and Toxicology April 9, 2009 [Epub Ahead of Print]

Exerpt: “In conclusion, MT-1 and MT-3 mRNAs but not MT-2 mRNA are easily expressed in the cerebellum rather than in the cerebrum by the injection of low-dose thimerosal. It is thought that the cerebellum is a sensitive organ against thimerosal.

As a result of the present findings, in combination with the brain pathology observed in patients diagnosed with autism, the present study helps to support the possible biological plausibility for how low-dose exposure to mercury from thimerosal-containing vaccines may be associated with autism.”

3. Annals of Epidemiology September 2009: 19(9);659

Male infants who received thimerosal-containing hepatitis-B vaccinations had a three-fold risk of developing autism.

4. Neurotoxicology October 1, 2009

The above findings are confirmed in this study wherein infant primates injected with just ONE dose of thimerosal-containing hepatitis B vaccine manifested significant developmental delays.

5. Brain Research September 9, 2009 [Epub Ahead of Print]

Study concluded that injecting thimerosal into suckling infant rats, and adult rats, impairs sensitivity to pain, apparently due to activation the endogenous opioid system.

6. Toxicology & Environmental Chemistry September-October 2008: 90(5);997-1008

Male infants who received thimerosal-containing hepatitis-B vaccinations were nine times as likely to be receiving special education services

7. Generation Rescue Survey of 9,000 boys, aged 4-17, in California and Oregon, found that vaccinated boys had a 155 percent greater chance of having a neurological disorder than unvaccinated boys. Vaccinated boys were 224 percent more likely to have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), and 61 percent more likely to have autism.

For boys in the 11-17 age bracket, the results were even more pronounced. Vaccinated boys were 158 percent more likely to have a neurological disorder, 317 percent more likely to have ADHD, and 112 percent more likely to have autism.

8. Report to the Legislature on the Principle Findings from The Epidemiology of Autism in California: A Comprehensive Pilot Study by the MIND Institute, October 2002, concluded that the rise in autism cannot be explained by better diagnosis and expanded diagnostic criteria, but rather is a real event, likely propelled by “environmental exposures to substances such as mercury; viral exposures; autoimmune disorders; and childhood vaccinations."

9. Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology 2006: 214; 99-108

This French study used a new, sophisticated measurement for environmental toxicity by assessing porphyrin levels in autistic children. It provides clear and unequivocal evidence that children with autism spectrum disorders are significantly more toxic than their neurotypical peers.

10. Journal of American Physicians and Surgeon, 2003

Exerpt: "The data from this study, along with emerging epidemiological data showing a link between increasing mercury doses from childhood vaccines and childhood neurodevelopmental disorders, increases the likelihood that mercury is one of the main factors leading to the large increase in the rate of autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders. It is hoped that removing thimerosal from all childhood vaccines will contribute to a decline in the numbers of new cases of autistic spectrum disorders."

11. Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health 2007: 70; 837-851

This study reviewed the case histories and medical profiles of nine autistic children and concluded that eight of the nine children were mercury toxic and this toxicity manifested itself in a manner consistent with Autism Spectrum Disorders.

12. Neuropediatrics, August 2006

Exerpt: "There was significant difference in blood mercury levels between cases and controls, which persists after adjustment for age, gender and parental occupational status. The geometric mean blood mercury level was also significantly higher in children with inattentive and combined subtypes of ADHD. CONCLUSION: High blood mercury level was associated with ADHD. Whether the relationship is causal requires further studies."

13. International Journal of Toxicology 2003: 22; 277-285

Fourteenstudies.org states: “This recent study demonstrates that the levels of mercury in the birth hair of autistic children were significantly lower than their control peers. While this may at first appear contradictory, it highlights one of the critical insights to understanding mercury poisoning and autistic children: many autistic children are non-excretors of mercury. This means their capacity to excrete mercury is significantly lower than their neurotypical peers and contributes to their condition.”

14. Journal of Pediatrics, May 2000: 136; 679-681

This study measured mercury levels in infants before and after the administration of a Hepatitis B vaccine containing thimerosal and found that a "comparison of pre and post-vaccination mercury levels showed a significant increase in both preterm and term infants after vaccination."

15. Neurotoxicology January 2005: 26; 1-8

Study demonstrates that thimerosal lowers or inhibits your body's ability to produce glutathione, an antioxidant and your body's primary cellular-level defense against mercury.

Excerpt: "Thimerosal-induced cytotoxicity was associated with depletion of intracellular Glutathione in both cell lines...The potential effect of Glutathione or N-acetylcysteine against mercury toxicity warrants further research as possible adjunct therapy to individuals still receiving Thimerosal-containing vaccines."

16. Environmental Health Perspectives, July 2006

Study demonstrates that very low-levels of Thimerosal can contribute to immune system disregulation.

17. Molecular Psychiatry July 2004; 1-13

Study demonstrates how thimerosal inhibits methylation, a central driver of cellular communication and development.

Exerpt: "The potent inhibition of this pathway [methylation] by ethanol, lead, mercury, aluminum, and thimerosal suggests it may be an important target of neurodevelopmental toxins."

18. Molecular Psychiatry September 2004; 1-13

Fouteenstudies.org states: “This work by Columbia University Doctors explores whether genes are important in determining if mercury exposures akin to those in childhood immunizations can disrupt brain development and function.

It is the first known scientific study done specifically on ethlymercury administered in a way similar to the vaccine schedule. Dr. Hornig discussed the study before Congress in September 2004.”

Excerpt: "The premise of our research is that if mercury in vaccines creates risk for neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism, genetic differences are likely to contribute to that risk. Earlier studies, however, did not use the form of mercury present in vaccines, known as thimerosal, and did not consider whether intramuscular, repetitive administration during early postnatal development, when the brain and immune systems are still maturing, might intensify toxicity.

Our predictions were confirmed. Using thimerosal dosages and timing that approximated the childhood immunization schedule, our model of postnatal thimerosal neurotoxicity demonstrated that the genes in mice that predict mercury-related immunotoxicity also predicted nuerodevelopmental damage. Features reminiscent of those observed in autism occurred in the mice of the genetically sensitive strain."

19. Toxicological Sciences 2003: 74

Study demonstrates the potent toxicity of thimerosal on brain cells.

20. Autoimmunity Reviews June 2005: 4(5):270-275

Study demonstrates the clear link between ethylmercury [from thimerosal] and autoimmune responses.

21. Congressional Record - Extensions of Remarks by Congressman Dan Burton (R-IN), Committee on Government Reform, May 21, 2003

Fouteenstudies.org states: “This extensive report was prepared by the staff of the Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness and was the result of a three-year investigation. The Committee on Government Reform, chaired by Congressman Dan Burton, initiated the investigation and compiled the testimony of hundreds of researchers and physicians, as well as representatives from the FDA and CDC, who presented to the committee.”

Excerpt: "Mercury is hazardous to humans. Its use in medicinal products is undesirable, unnecessary and should be minimized or eliminated entirely. Manufacturers of vaccines and thimerosal, (an ethlymercury compound used in vaccines), have never conducted adequate testing on the safety of thimerosal. The FDA has never required manufacturers to conduct adequate safety testing on thimerosal and ethlymercury compounds...

Thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccines is likely related to the autism epidemic. This epidemic in all probability may have been prevented or curtailed had the FDA not been asleep at the switch regarding injected thimerosal and the sharp rise of infant exposure to this known neurotoxin. Our public health agencies' failure to act is indicative of institutional malfeasance for self-protection and misplaced protectionism of the pharmaceutical industry."

22. Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons 2006; 11(1); 8-13

Upon analysis of the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS), researchers reported significantly increased odds ratios for autism, speech disorders, mental retardation and thinking abnormalities following vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines (DTP and Hib), compared to children who received a vaccine containing half the amount of thimerosal (DTPH).

The American Academy of Pediatrics decided that this study was flawed because it relied on VAERS data, which as a “passive surveillance system” is no intended to be used for proving hypotheses.

From http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/17/Washington-Health-Department-Suspends-Mercury-Restrictions-for-Swine-Flu-Vaccine.aspx
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asmalls4
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They said that the cases were confirmed. I don't know for sure that is just what the PTA is telling the parents.
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MattP
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What they are testing is for the category of flu virus - either type A or type B. That test takes about 15 minutes to do. Testing for a specific strain, however, takes significantly more time and specialized equipment/expertise/cost. When it was determined that all type A diagnosis that were further tested ended up being H1N1, they stopped doing the more extensive testing and just assumed any further positive tests for type A represented H1N1.

Presumably there is still some spot checking to verify this assumption is valid.

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OpsanusTau
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You know, Colin, those studies look interesting, and maybe sometime soon I'll have time to read some or all of them.

But you do realize that saying that you are presenting "22 studies to test the hypothesis" is pretty completely untrue, right?

I mean - what, maybe four or five of them actually are about autism?

You know, I was in policy debate in high school too. I know this trick, of pulling up a whole raft of tangentially related references to bolster a weak argument. Maybe hoping that the "opponent" will feel overwhelmed by the quantity, or something.

But do you know what I love about science? I love the thought that in the future, probably we will be able to figure out more about what makes vaccines dangerous for some people, and fix things so that fewer people are endangered and more people are protected from infectious diseases by vaccines. With the important end goal of far fewer people dying horrifying, painful deaths from preventable disease.

You'll forgive me if I don't really believe that most of the anti-vaccination crusaders share this priority of mine. It seems like often, STOP VACCINATING is their only message. And that's ludicrous.
MAKE VACCINATION EVEN SAFER is a message I think we could all get behind, but really, sensible and moderate positions are so rarely attractive to the bat**** crazies.

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Colin JM0397
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Kind of like the trick of making assumptions w/o reading them and then dismissing the references? [FootInMouth]

If you took the time to really read/listen to these groups, you'll hear they say the same thing you are saying. All these groups, from Mercola to the NVIH, to that guy speaking to the NY state Medical board are very consistent in their message: not anti-vaccine, but pro vaccine safety.

But you want to assume they are only paying that lip service, because you just know they are really batsh!t crazies who really want to send us back to the dark ages. As you said, you believe they feel differently than you.

Of course, it's easier to assume they have ulterior motives different than their stated platforms, so it makes it that much easier to gloss over the work and then dismiss it.

The overall question of all these groups is not whether or not dead or weakened viruses evoke an immune response.

The entire argument is what are all these additives, and what are the effects those have on our bodies, both individually in each immunization, and collectively when we look at this very large vaccine schedule - in many areas over 40 vaccinations called for in young kids. Where are the studies and what is science that shows these are safe ALL safe?

That is the argument, not “no vaccines should be allowed, they don’t work!”

If you are going to debate against a position, you ought to at least understand what it really is.

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cherrypoptart
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-carrey/the-judgment-on-vaccines_b_189777.html

I'm impressed with Jim Carrey here and he makes a great argument. We still don't know enough and it's way too early to make definitive declarations.

----------------------------------------------

The Judgment on Vaccines Is In???

Recently, I was amazed to hear a commentary by CNN's Campbell Brown on the controversial vaccine issue. After a ruling by the 'special vaccine court' saying the Measles, Mumps, Rubella shot wasn't found to be responsible for the plaintiffs' autism, she and others in the media began making assertions that the judgment was in, and vaccines had been proven safe. No one would be more relieved than Jenny and I if that were true. But with all due respect to Ms. Brown, a ruling against causation in three cases out of more than 5000 hardly proves that other children won't be adversely affected by the MMR, let alone that all vaccines are safe. This is a huge leap of logic by anyone's standards. Not everyone gets cancer from smoking, but cigarettes do cause cancer. After 100 years and many rulings in favor of the tobacco companies, we finally figured that out.

The truth is that no one without a vested interest in the profitability of vaccines has studied all 36 of them in depth. There are more than 100 vaccines in development, and no tests for cumulative effect or vaccine interaction of all 36 vaccines in the current schedule have ever been done. If I'm mistaken, I challenge those who are making such grand pronouncements about vaccine safety to produce those studies.

If we are to believe that the ruling of the 'vaccine court' in these cases mean that all vaccines are safe, then we must also consider the rulings of that same court in the Hannah Polling and Bailey Banks cases, which ruled vaccines were the cause of autism and therefore assume that all vaccines are unsafe. Clearly both are irresponsible assumptions, and neither option is prudent.

In this growing crisis, we cannot afford to blindly trumpet the agenda of the CDC, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) or vaccine makers. Now more than ever, we must resist the urge to close this book before it's been written. The anecdotal evidence of millions of parents who've seen their totally normal kids regress into sickness and mental isolation after a trip to the pediatrician's office must be seriously considered. The legitimate concern they and many in the scientific community have that environmental toxins, including those found in vaccines, may be causing autism and other disorders (Aspergers, ADD, ADHD), cannot be dissuaded by a show of sympathy and a friendly invitation to look for the 'real' cause of autism anywhere but within the lucrative vaccine program.

With vaccines being the fastest growing division of the pharmaceutical industry, isn't it possible that profits may play a part in the decision-making? That the vaccine program is becoming more of a profit engine than a means of prevention? In a world left reeling from the catastrophic effects of greed, mismanagement and corporate insensitivity, is it so absurd for us to wonder why American children are being given twice as many vaccines on average, compared to the top 30 first world countries?

Paul Offit, the vaccine advocate and profiteer, who helped invent a Rotavirus vaccine is said to have paved the way for his own multi-million dollar windfall while serving on the very council that eventually voted his Rotavirus vaccine onto our children's schedule. On August 21, 2000 a congressional investigation's report titled, "Conflicts in Vaccine Policy," stated:


It has become clear over the course of this investigation that the VRBPAC and the ACIP [the two main advisory boards that determine the vaccine schedule] are dominated by individuals with close working relationships with the vaccine producers. This was never the intent of the Federal Advisory Committee Act, which requires that a diversity of views be represented on advisory committees.

Isn't that enough to raise questions about the process of choosing the vaccine schedule?

With many states like Minnesota now reporting the number at 1 in 80 children affected with autism, can we afford to trust those who serve two masters or their logic that tells us "one size fits all" when it comes to vaccines? Can we afford to ignore vaccines as a possible cause of these rising numbers when they are one of the fastest growing elements in our children's environment? With all the doubt that's left hanging on this topic, how can anyone in the media or medical profession, boldly demand that all parents march out and give their kids 36 of these shots, six at a time in dosage levels equal to that given a 200 pound man? This is a bias of the most dangerous kind.

I've also heard it said that no evidence of a link between vaccines and autism has ever been found. That statement is only true for the CDC, the AAP and the vaccine makers who've been ignoring mountains of scientific information and testimony. There's no evidence of the Lincoln Memorial if you look the other way and refuse to turn around. But if you care to look, it's really quite impressive. For a sample of vaccine injury evidence go to www.generationrescue.org/lincolnmemorial.html.

We have never argued that people shouldn't be immunized for the most serious threats including measles and polio, but surely there's a limit as to how many viruses and toxins can be introduced into the body of a small child. Veterinarians found out years ago that in many cases they were over-immunizing our pets, a syndrome they call Vaccinosis. It overwhelmed the immune system of the animals, causing myriad physical and neurological disorders. Sound familiar? If you can over-immunize a dog, is it so far out to assume that you can over-immunize a child? These forward thinking vets also decided to remove thimerosal from animal vaccines in 1992, and yet this substance, which is 49% mercury, is still in human vaccines. Don't our children deserve as much consideration as our pets?

I think I'd rather listen to the more sensible voice of Dr. Bernadine Healy, former head of the National Institute of Health, who says:


Listen to the patients and the patients will teach...I think there is an inexcusable issue, and that's the lack of research that's been done here...A parent can legitimately question giving a one-day old baby, or a two-day old baby [the] Hepatitis B vaccine that has no risk for it [and] the mother has no risk for it. That's a heavy-duty vaccine given on day two [of life]. I think those are legitimate questions.

Dr. Healy is also calling for a long overdue study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. Dr. Frank Engly, a researcher and microbiologist who served on the boards of the CDC, FDA and EPA during the 70s and 80s, warned:


The CDC cannot afford to admit thimerosal is toxic because they have been promoting it for several years...If they would have followed through with our 1982 report, vaccines would have been freed of thimerosal and all this autism as they tell me would not have occurred. But as it is, it all occurred.

In all likelihood the truth about vaccines is that they are both good and bad. While ingredients like aluminum, mercury, ether, formaldehyde and anti-freeze may help preserve and enhance vaccines, they can be toxic as well. The assortment of viruses delivered by multiple immunizations may also be a hazard. I agree with the growing number of voices within the medical and scientific community who believe that vaccines, like every other drug, have risks as well as benefits and that for the sake of profit, American children are being given too many, too soon. One thing is certain. We don't know enough to announce that all vaccines are safe!

If the CDC, the AAP and Ms. Brown insist that our children take twice as many shots as the rest of the western world, we need more independent vaccine research not done by the drug companies selling the vaccines or by organizations under their influence. Studies that cannot be internally suppressed. Answers parents can trust. Perhaps this is what Campbell Brown should be demanding and how the power of the press could better serve the public in the future.

-- Jim Carrey

---------------------------------------------

If thimerosal were ever found to be the cause of autism spectrum disorders, I wonder what the liability would be and to whom for the life-changing consequences stemming from our government's insistence on children getting these unsafe vaccines.

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MattP
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quote:
If thimerosal were ever found to be the cause of autism spectrum disorders,
We already know that in the broad sense it is not. There is no statistical correlation between patterns of thimerosal use and rates of autism diagnosis over the populations that have been studied. In fact trends in autism spectrum diagnosis have not been affected by the removal of thimerosal from most childhood vaccines and flu vaccines aren't ubiquitous enough to be the cause.

This is why the anti-vax movement that used to live and breath on claims of "mercury poisoning" have now largely moved on to blaming other ingredients or just general "toxicity" for a vaccine-autism link.

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Colin JM0397
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Matt, as he said in that article:
quote:
I've also heard it said that no evidence of a link between vaccines and autism has ever been found. That statement is only true for the CDC, the AAP and the vaccine makers who've been ignoring mountains of scientific information and testimony. There's no evidence of the Lincoln Memorial if you look the other way and refuse to turn around. But if you care to look, it's really quite impressive. For a sample of vaccine injury evidence go to www.generationrescue.org/lincolnmemorial.html

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yes, many focus on the thimerisal. However, the questions and talking points go far beyond that one item. Nevertheless, it is not a settled issue.

[ November 06, 2009, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Colin JM0397 ]

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DonaldD
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quote:
The anecdotal evidence of millions of parents who've seen their totally normal kids regress into sickness and mental isolation after a trip to the pediatrician's office must be seriously considered
This doesn't pass the sniff test, cherry: assuming 2 parents to a child, we are talking at minimum 1 million kids "regress[ed] into sickness and mental isolation after a trip to the pediatrician's office". First off, that would require at minimum .33% of the total US population to have become autistic due to vaccines. Assuming all children get these vaccines, that would mean at least one in every 300 children would have a significant, negative reaction. This would require pediatricians to be either a) blind or b) devilspawn.

There are times when speaking hyperbole out of one's nether regions doesn't advance one's cause.

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MattP
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quote:
For a sample of vaccine injury evidence go to http://www.generationrescue.org/lincolnmemorial.html

It's funny that he cites Generation Rescue. They are the flagship example of switching hypothesis to fit an ideology when the evidence doesn't bear out their false speculation.

The used to say:
quote:
Generation Rescue believes that childhood neurological disorders such as autism, Asperger's, ADHD/ADD, speech delay, sensory integration disorder, and many other developmental delays are all misdiagnoses for mercury poisoning.
When you know cause, you can focus on cure.Thousands of parents are curing their children by removing the mercury from their children's bodies. We want you, the parent, to know the truth.

Now that thimerosal in vaccines has been largely ruled out as the cause of an autism epidemic, they now say this:
quote:
We believe these neurological disorders ("NDs") are environmental illnesses caused by an overload of heavy metals, live viruses, and bacteria. Proper treatment of our children, known as "biomedical intervention", is leading to recovery for thousands.
The cause of this epidemic of NDs is extremely controversial. We believe the primary causes include the tripling of vaccines given to children in the last 15 years (mercury, aluminum and live viruses); maternal toxic load and prenatal vaccines; heavy metals like mercury in our air, water, and food; and the overuse of antibiotics.

It's now become a unspecific hodgepodge of environmental toxins, viruses and bacteria. As actual scientific research made their claims untenable they altered their claims to be so vague as to make it essentially impossible to test them.

Further, they deliberately ignore the fact that in the period that they cite for rising autism rates that the diagnostic criteria were relaxed and awareness of autism spectrum disorders increased.

[ November 06, 2009, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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Pyrtolin
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Actually, Donald- take that much to be true. 1 in 300 have observed regression after a vaccine. Now go up to the article above and note that the overall autism rate in Minnesota is cited as 1 in 80. That means that for every case where it happens to occur within a few days of a vaccine, nearly three more don't. That's a pretty weak correlation, overall.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
It is, in fact, more likely as far as I understand that a pre-existing autoimmune disorder would have been triggered by a vaccination. And if not the vaccination, then by something else. (See, for instance, Guillain-Barre syndrome with its high rate of idiopathic incidence.)
I think this is a point that ought to be emphasized, Ops.

If the rate of autism is practically the same between those vaccinated and those unvaccinated means that, even if the vaccine triggered the autism, something else eventually would have done so anyway. Otherwise the rates would be different, since the unvaccinated group would have missed "the" trigger.

It could be that there are multiple such triggers in our environment, all around us, vaccines just being one of them. Eliminating a beneficial one would not change the outcome, because you can't identify and eliminate all of them. Sooner or later the child would have met another one.

Or it could be like a rock balancing on the edge of a cliff. Eventually something--almost anything--lands on the rock and tips it over.

Either way, even if the vaccination wasn't given, the child would have developed autism anyway. Not giving the vaccination would not have prevented him becoming autistic.

[ November 06, 2009, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Wayward Son ]

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cherrypoptart
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Like I said, it's something people apparently refuse to believe unless they've seen it for themselves. Perfectly outgoing and curious children who articulate words clearly at 18 months then slurring words and becoming very difficult for any but the parent who is used to their speech being able to understand them at 3 years and having other symptoms such as difficulty making eye contact, twitching, poor motor skills, lack of ability to concentrate, and so on, symptoms which were not present previously, and all this occuring soon after getting vaccinated is just a coincidence to some but a connection to those who've gone through the experience.

The idea that this would have happened anyway doesn't fit with the reality of regression. The assertion that these symptoms must have been there all along and the parents just missed them just doesn't accept the truth that parents know their children. Only people who've gone through it seem to accept it.

Perhaps we need more pre-vaccination and post vaccination monitoring of children, but it's too late now if the mercury has been taken out. Not saying that's a bad thing, just that we've hurt our children and it may be that there never is a real recognition of how and why.

But the parents who've gone through this endure the guilt of knowing that though they tried to protect their children, in so doing they hurt them. It reminds me a little bit of the mother who insisted her little girl drink her milk to keep her bones healthy. This was in a place in America that experienced radioactive fallout from a nuclear test, and that girl as well as the mother and a lot of people in the area ended up getting all kinds of cancer, especially throat cancer. Our government has a history of lying and refusing to accept responsibility for mistakes. The lesson parents who've gone through this take away is that we can't trust anyone to protect our children except ourselves.

The government is full of liars. Just like with Gulf War Syndrome. Eventually there may be a day of reckoning. But there is certainly no guarantee of that, and if it comes then great strides in the advancement of medical knowledge will have to preceed it, exactly as happened with Gulf War Syndrome. Nobody believed the vets at first either no matter how insistent they were. The kids can't even speak for themselves. They can't even remember feeling any differently than they do now and couldn't articulate it even if they could remember. It's really just a sad, sad story. And the saddest thing is no one believes it.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
Like I said, it's something people apparently refuse to believe unless they've seen it for themselves. Perfectly outgoing and curious children who articulate words clearly at 18 months then slurring words and becoming very difficult for any but the parent who is used to their speech being able to understand them at 3 years and having other symptoms such as difficulty making eye contact, twitching, poor motor skills, lack of ability to concentrate, and so on, symptoms which were not present previously, and all this occuring soon after getting vaccinated is just a coincidence to some but a connection to those who've gone through the experience.

And what of the other 3 out of 4 who see the same thing, but without the vaccine as a factor?

That's the bit you're missing here. Yes regressions happen, and statistically, a certain percent of them happen after vaccines. But even more of them happen _without_ a vaccine as a trigger. The child goes through the same process without any directly discernible cause.

That's where the fallacy enters- in ignoring the large majority of cases where there was no vaccine in proximity and only trying to run on absolute numbers, which are deceptive because it's hard for people to comprehend just how many people are in world right now, or even just in the US.

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hobsen
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One of the summaries posted by Colin JM0397 suggests to me an alternate explanation,
quote:
13. International Journal of Toxicology 2003: 22; 277-285

Fourteenstudies.org states: “This recent study demonstrates that the levels of mercury in the birth hair of autistic children were significantly lower than their control peers. While this may at first appear contradictory, it highlights one of the critical insights to understanding mercury poisoning and autistic children: many autistic children are non-excretors of mercury. This means their capacity to excrete mercury is significantly lower than their neurotypical peers and contributes to their condition.”

If this is confirmed, it means that at least some children who later become autistic differ from others at birth. Moreover, since mercury in the body is likely to be harmful in any amount, and can be acquired from many sources, those with trouble excreting it could tend to build up dangerous levels. Then adding more could indeed result in a sudden onset of symptoms, which such persons might otherwise escape - but on the other hand they might just take longer to fall ill. Since a number of diseases result from an accumulation of poisons which a particular individual has trouble excreting, it seems a similar difficulty may be one cause of autism. And I approve the caution of that summary in saying it "contributes to their condition." A person who has trouble excreting mercury might have trouble excreting other heavy metals too, so it would interest me if such individuals proved to have difficulty excreting lead - for example - as well.

[ November 06, 2009, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: hobsen ]

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Wayward Son
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quote:
But the parents who've gone through this endure the guilt of knowing that though they tried to protect their children, in so doing they hurt them.
And that is the worst thing about this whole mess. Parents who now feel horrible guilt because they believe they did something to hurt their children, even though the statistics (apparently) show that it either didn't hurt their children, or that it almost doubtlessly wouldn't have matter. All because some people have an axe to grind against pharmaceuticals or somesuch people. [Frown]
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OpsanusTau
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quote:
The assertion that these symptoms must have been there all along and the parents just missed them just doesn't accept the truth that parents know their children.
Do people say that? That's awful.

I do think that something a lot of people don't understand is that it is certainly possible for a nervous system defect (or a different kind of congenital problem, for that matter) present at birth to be "invisible" in early life, and for signs of the problem only to show up as the child develops, leading to the appearance of regression.

We were learning about this a little bit recently in terms of some interspecies comparisons, which I only mention because I think it's a useful illustration. In animals that are born "on the hoof" with a more developed nervous system (horses, cattle, etc - they come out more complete because they have to be ready to run), you can expect to be able to observe any neurologic deficit pretty much at birth. But animals that undergo a lot more postnatal development (this group includes dogs and cats, and also humans) can be born with all appearances of health (because their systems essentially aren't all complete and working yet anyways), only to start showing signs later as development cannot progress the way it ought. And this can lead to the appearance of a sudden-onset regression of development.

I'm not necessarily making any claims in re: autism here (I'm not even convinced that this information is directly applicable) - just clearing up something that I think might need clearing up. And perhaps providing some food for thought.

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Colin JM0397
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Do we need an autism thread? Or a new Swine Flu thread?
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PSRT
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quote:
Do people say that? That's awful.

It is true, though, that parents often do not see things about their children that others can see clearly.
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BobDylanThomas
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Did 'anybody' actually hear Jim Carrey make that speech?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
But the parents who've gone through this endure the guilt of knowing that though they tried to protect their children, in so doing they hurt them.
And that is the worst thing about this whole mess. Parents who now feel horrible guilt because they believe they did something to hurt their children, even though the statistics (apparently) show that it either didn't hurt their children, or that it almost doubtlessly wouldn't have matter. All because some people have an axe to grind against pharmaceuticals or somesuch people. [Frown]
Statistics don't necessarily dictate causality. If the MMR vaccine does in fact cause some cases of Child Disintegration Disorder (the very rare regressive form of autism which afflicts my son) then it's very likely that either measels, mumps, or rubella also could cause CDD. Therefore, one would not expect the group kids who have the MMR vaccine to have more CDD than kids that didn't. But that would not change the fact that some kids get CDD because they were vaccinated, while some kids get CDD because they weren't vaccinated.

There are some small percentage of accidents which would not have been lethal if the passnger was *not* wearing a seatbelt or helmet. In fact, seatbelts and helmets do cause some deaths. Statistically you're more likely to live if you wear them. But that doesn't change the causality of death for someone actually killed by his safety device.

In my son's case, we were pressured by a confluence of laws and bureaucracy to consent to his getting vaccines at a time in which we knew he was recovering from a fever. That's kind of like having a cop yell in your face to put your seatbelt on while your car is burning.

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cherrypoptart
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> BobDylanThomas

> Did 'anybody' actually hear Jim Carrey make that speech?

My understanding was that it was a blog thing of his, more like an article or essay than a speech.

---------------------------------------

As for the responses going both ways, they are all informed and thought provoking and provide many paths for exploration.

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OpsanusTau
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quote:
But that doesn't change the causality of death for someone actually killed by his safety device.
...it's probably not productive to get sidetracked into a discussion of complex aetiology.

[Smile]

Right?

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OpsanusTau
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My poking around the internet also found this: Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.

I apologize if someone already posted this here or elsewhere.

quote:
The objective of this case-control study was to determine whether children with GI disturbances and autism are more likely than children with GI disturbances alone to have MV RNA and/or inflammation in bowel tissues and if autism and/or GI episode onset relate temporally to receipt of MMR. [...]
We found the age at the time of exposure to MMR relative to onset of GI problems in cases and controls and the temporal order of MMR administration, GI episodes, and AUT onset in cases to be inconsistent with a causal role for MMR vaccine as a trigger or exacerbator of either GI disturbances or autism.


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Pete at Home
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My son manifested no GI disturbances or autistic symptoms until the day of the vaccination. We have medical proof, video proof, tons of sworn testimony to that effect, and the unequivocal finding of fact by a judge to that effect.

He received the MMR shot 1 year late, and began to manifest those symptoms immediately upon having the shot. I would like to see studies by some party that didn't have a financial interest in denying causality. Oh, and I'd like my son back.

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The Drake
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With respect to the study:

Is a sample of 38 children even statistically viable?

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OpsanusTau
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Well, it's more statistically viable than the study it was a response to - which is, incidentally, so far as I know the only study that showed any link. That study contained eleven children, whose parents were paying the researcher to find a link between the vaccine and the autism, and when he didn't IIRC he changed his data.

Seriously, one self-serving crank makes up a study and years later, actual science still can't get people to listen to reason about it.

quote:
My son manifested no GI disturbances or autistic symptoms until the day of the vaccination.
Pete, I'm super sorry for what happened to your son, and I too hope that science and medicine figure out a way for you to get him back.

All I can say is that correlation is not causation, despite the way our narrative-loving brains like us to make connections. The hardest part of science is learning to rely on empirical evidence rather than allowing ourselves to tell the story we think we see.

Lots of vaccinations are given at around the age where the autism-spectrum signs also start to develop. It is not surprising that in some cases, the signs begin immediately after a vaccine is given. It's reasonable to wonder if there's a connection, but it is not reasonable, when the answer is a pretty unequivocal "no", to discard the available evidence and start listening to uneducated pseudoscientific cranks.

Honestly, I think I have to take a break from talking about this. It just exhausts me. On one side of the "debate" you have hundreds of researchers with years upon years of time spent learning and thinking and testing and revising hypotheses, thousands of published articles and epidemiological studies, and also not-so-incidentally a medical system that has managed to cut the incidence of infectious disease to a level such that most of us don't know more than one or two people who have died of an infectious disease recently. You know, because it works.

On the other side, you have a bunch of people who are convinced of the most ridiculous, pseudoscientific hooey, because someone who sounded plausible and trustworthy preyed on their hopes and fears, and they didn't have the background to understand why they shouldn't listen beyond cursory attention.

Meanwhile, I try to explain things as best I can for a lay audience, and am accused of being already in the pocket of "big pharma", of being a mandatory-vaccination fascist, and I forget what else, and the flood of dangerous misinformation doesn't even slow down. I have other work to do.

But here, back to H1N1 for you guys -
Here is an interesting discussion of flu vaccine efficacy.

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The Drake
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Isn't thousands of published articles hyperbolic at best?

There are many infectious diseases that do not have vaccines. We owe far more to the science that created antibiotics, antivirals, and other palliative care than we do to preventive care.

I don't weigh in on autism in relation to vaccine because I've seen no convincing evidence. But as far as I know, the causes of autism are still quite mysterious, and therefore it would seem that continued inquiry is necessary. The vaccine might be a catalyst or need a catalyst in order to result in autism. If this X-factor is rare, then vaccines can still be a component in the equation. Hopefully, future researchers will not be so intimidated by the "thousands of studies" that they abandon any inquiries into a link between vaccines and negative health consequences.

None of which necessarily makes vaccines a bad idea, even if all the rumors and "pseudo-science" proved true. It merely would be good if everyone were as informed as possible about the risks.

I understand your need to step aside, we participants have been pretty entrenched from the beginning, and only hard feelings probably result by continuing. I appreciate your contributions, they were well thought-out and helped me personally to better understand vaccination in general.

I've been sick for three weeks since getting that shot. Coincidence? Almost certainly. This is the time of year that illnesses run rampant. I take public transportation daily, and I am in school with 45-70 students for 8 hours a week.

I'll take my anecdote over all the accepted science, because I am an individual, and studies of ME show a 67% correlation between having a flu vaccination and developing serious illness requiring medication.

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Pete at Home
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OP, you realize I've never accused you of being in the pocket of Big Pharma. I've appreciated your input here. And I've defended you against the accusation of being a mandatory vax fascist. I hope you don't think that I'm peddling "most ridiculous, pseudoscientific hooey," but if you do, that doesn't change my high value on your participation in these vax threads. Thank you.
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PSRT
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quote:
There are many infectious diseases that do not have vaccines. We owe far more to the science that created antibiotics, antivirals, and other palliative care than we do to preventive care.
I don't know what we owe "more," to, but smallpox used to be a major killer, the flu used to be a major killer, measles, mumps, and rubella used to be serious illnesses, polio was not some minor disease... among many other infectious diseases that have been eradicated or turned into inconviences rather than life threatening diseases, because of preventative care. There are literally hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people alive right now who would not be had we not learned about vaccinations. I'm not saying that antibiotics and other treatments do not save comparable number of lives... I'm saying that poo-pooing preventative care is a major mistake.
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