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Author Topic: Anarchy at hand baby
Cedrios
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anyone else seen the 6 deaths in the last few hours in DC? all same M.O.s, no correllation between victims. looks like some guy's been watching Cobra way too much, or, we might have a bona-fide rush of some crazy killers nation-wide, considering 3 people just died in NYC and 5 in LA the same ways. Single shot, noone saw anything.



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Luny
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What, did we get infiltrated by a group of mass-murderer commandos or something?

Personnally I don't watch the news, it depresses me, but I still think this is interesting.


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Falken224
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All I heard about was the ones in D.C. First thing that came to my mind, given the location and M.O. was 'practice'. Somebody's practicing for an assassination. That didn't make much sense though. Second thought was 'amateur terrorists'.

Same M.O. in NY and LA would seem to indicate the latter. *sigh* Here we go again.

-Nate


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Luny
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I've only been able to find anything on the Maryland/DC shootings and a related virginia shooting. Do you have any links or news clippings about the others?
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Denelian
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someone i know compared these shootings to a video game... i guess that the point of the game is to steal cars, run around, make "deliverys" and kill people.

i can't remember what its called...i've seen it though...


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Junpei
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You mean Grand Theft Auto 3, right? That game's caused a lot of noise in Europe, Canada, and even here.

If I had kids, I sure wouldn't allow them to play it, but IMO, it's not worth banning.


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Denelian
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yeah, thats the game i meant.

i was trying bring up the point that there are too many people who feel that life is so empty they feel they have to emulate a sill video game to make is good.

i think i failed


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JonathanTheOmnipotent
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Games like that give the video game industry such a negative image.
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Luny
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I told my girlfriend about these shootings yesterday and the first thing she said to me was "I hope he doesn't have a copy of GTA3 at home." I think that's kind of funny... she rather likes the sniper missions apparently.
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Baldar
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A little sexist, what if its a woman.
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I have a friend who lives in that area and shes staying inside as much as possible...only going out when its absolutely necessary. Her home half mile from one of shootings, work half mile from another
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Tom Grey - Tigger
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Mindless (?) killing.
Terrorism.

Terrible. Evil. But even if he had GT3 at home, how to separate its influence from Hollywood movies -- or CNN news?

Somehow I suspect more a sickie than a mid East terrorist; but the terror seems to be working.

Sad. I'm really sorry. (even if I had nothing to do with; not even same continent.)


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Shawnee Ranger
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I'm a bit surprised that we haven't heard any mention of this being the work of Al-Quaeda. I'm not just pulling this one outta my fanny either. Consider this:

A). All of the killings are one shot kills. This is indicative of professional training. Furthermore, the .223 round is a popular military and sniper round because of the high muzzle velocity and flat bullet trajectory. They say at least one of the shots was from 600 yds. There are some "good ol boy" coyote hunters who can make the shot, but it's not just about the shot (See #2).

B). Another professional aspect to this is the insertion and extraction. Meaning, it's not just about the shot. These guys (Emphasis on the plural) are getting into an area, making the kill, and getting back out despite a saturation of law enforcement personnel. Don't doubt for a second that the cops don't have a "convergence drill" to close of any entrances and exits into the kill zones. They may not be able to converge on the actual kill site in any effective manner, but they sure as hell have a plan for getting any exits out blocked off. Whoever is doing this is damned good at the post-kill extraction. It reeks of professional training.

3). It's a safe bet to say that law enforcement has already gone through all records of Marine sniper teams (I say Marine because they work in a team whereas Army snipers work solo.) They've probably tracked down and eliminated any possible suspects from that direction.

4). These killings defy any of the existing profiles for serial killers. These ghouls represent a melding of the mass murderer and serial killer profiles in regard to: random victim choice (mass murderer), manner of death (mass murderer, or spree killer), communication with law enforcement (serial killer) & prey drive (serial killer).

5). Al-Qaeda trains specializes and lives for just such scenarios: Infiltrate in, make the kill, and go to ground. This IS what they do best all over the M.E. and S. Asia.

6). This is all about terror. Look at the locale they have picked (First Wall Street, then Washington) it implies a political agenda. Furthermore, it is causing terror. Nobody feels safe, and nobody knows who is doing it.

7) Increased "chatter' implies that Al-Qaeda is back on the move and operations are afoot.

C'mon folks let's think outside of the box on this one. I put my money on Al-Qaeda. I'll happily eat crow on this one however. I just hope they catch the rotten murderous bastards. My only regret will be that we prohibit cruel and unusual punishment. The pieces of shyte shot a kid for God's sake! A needle is too damn good for them.-S.R.

[This message has been edited by Shawnee Ranger (edited October 12, 2002).]


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Shawnee Ranger
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Like I said, I'll gladly eat crow on this one Eddie, I just hope they catch the rotten bastard(s). But, I think you should consider that Al-Qaeda HAS successfully recruited Americans White or Non.

I'll agree wholeheartedly with your assumption that the person or persons invloved are wackos.

I guess the thing that strikes me the most about this is how it (a better way to refer to the killer(s)) transcends all of the classic sociopathic profiles, or maybe it's better to say that it bridges the differences between the profiles.

I dunno, all I hope is that other wackjobs across the land don't get lit up by the attention that the current killers are engendering and begin to copycat there MO. Sighhhh what a World we live in.-S.R.


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Mike_W
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Proffessional?
Guys, .223 is a popular round for all kinds of folks because it's cheap to get ammo and all kinds of very fun rifles are chambered for it. The survivalists and wackos like it because they assume they can steal it from the military when the government falls and anarchy reigns.

Lots of amateurs have the skills to do what this person's doing. Frankly, I'm surprised we haven't seen something like this before- it is scary easy. Bottom line - we can't conclude much from the MO other than the fact that this perp has spent some time at the range.

Mike


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Mike_W
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I re-read the "extraction" point. Well, maybe. But, if you're making shots from 600 yds in a populated area, I think extraction is not as hard as suggested. And, it might not be a team. I'm not denying these possibilities, but I think the possibilities are still wide open.


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Baldar
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I have seen my father hit a target at 800 yards, consistently, but then he was trained to do it. Shooting is not hard, crossing the line to kill someone is the difficult part, once that's been accomplished and no more regret exists, then the rest is simply planning until you are caught.

Personally I don't think its Al-Qaeda, or NRA simply because these groups or any terrorist group seeks recognition for its actions, usually someone will drop a phone call to some local news outlet warning of this imperialistic or that capitalistic. No, I think this is someone who does it for the thrill of a psuedo hunt were the killer is playing "army" with the local authorities.

I believe he will be caught, especially if he doesn't stop, he will eventually make one mistake that allows the greater resources to hunt him down.


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Mike_W
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Not that I'm a huge NRA fan, but I think treating them as a "terrorist" group who would claim responsibility is stretching it a bit far...Perhaps you were refering to some random militia group that might be supporters of the NRA ;-)
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Shawnee Ranger
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As far as the claiming of responsibility, remember that Al-Qaeda was very coy about claiming responsibility for 9-11. It's only been in the last few months that they've even obliquely began to own it. They defy the terrorist stereotype in that respect. It's all part of their terror game to make us wonder "Is it them or one of ours?"

Back to the shooter. I agree that there are plenty of everyday guys who can make such shots. My father in-law is in his early sixties and can routinely hit moving prey at 300-400 yards with a .22-250 caliber round. But I reiterate that whoever is doing this is able to get through the police presence to do the deed and to exfiltrate the area as police are converging on it. With the latest killing there was a Va State trooper issuing a ticket about 100 feet from the victim. He pretty much instantaneously reported the shot, yet they still got out. I think the white van is a clever straw man. Either the shooter has an accomplice who drives a "sterilized" white van out of the area as the shoot takes place, or he simply waits until a unconnected white van passes by (Least likely). Another good possibility that I heard on the news is that there is a cargo truck situated nearby that that van is driven into in order to get out of the area unhindered. There is an odor of trained professionalism to the whole thing. And if you know much about AQ, this is something that the rotten bastards are good at.

And then there is the profile. This entity doesn't appear to be as much of a slave to it's prey drive as the traditional sociopath. For most of them, it is the prey drive that does them in. I mean the kill for these scum is like "Psychic Heroin". Once they get a taste, the addiction is set and they cannot get enough. To many of them, this killing is the only way they can get sexual release. Here the perp(s) seem to be able to regulate it enough to vary the timing and the geographical patterns that usually end up being their undoing. If this is a domestic sociopath then he is a unique mutation of the species.

In summary, we are either looking at a new breed of serial killer, an evolution of the Zodiac sniper who terrorized Frisco a few decades ago, or it is the work of a team of terrorists who are operating from a political agenda. In the end, all I care about is that it/they are caught, tried, convicted and then executed (publically drawn and quartered would be sublime).-S.R.


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Cedrios
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sorry Shawnee, no matter how coy or full of suprises the Al-Quiada may be, no Muslim, esp. fanatic ones like them would ever even TOUCH a tarot card, let alone leave it as a calling card.
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Dan Allen
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Shawnee:
quote:
A). All of the killings are one shot kills. This is indicative of professional training. Furthermore, the .223 round is a popular military and sniper round because of the high muzzle velocity and flat bullet trajectory. They say at least one of the shots was from 600 yds.

It's not very popular with the military snipers because the trajectory goes strange after about 400 yards. I believe that the Army snipers are using modified M-1 or M-14's; which uses a 30.06, IIRC.
Mike:
quote:
Guys, .223 is a popular round for all kinds of folks because it's cheap to get ammo and all kinds of very fun rifles are chambered for it. The survivalists and wackos like it because they assume they can steal it from the military when the government falls and anarchy reigns.
Lots of amateurs have the skills to do what this person's doing. Frankly, I'm surprised we haven't seen something like this before- it is scary easy. Bottom line - we can't conclude much from the MO other than the fact that this perp has spent some time at the range.

Not with a .223 there aren't. Particularly if they really are making 600 yard shots.

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Baldar
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Cedrios is right, Arabs do not, as a rule use tarot cards
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Mike_W
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I agree the 600 yd shot with .223 is a long one. But, it's not impossible (obviously). I never meant to imply this was easy - just that the skills do do it can be acquired with or without military/paramilitary training. The serious snipers in the world's armed forces are often using hopped up 300 magnum calibres all the way up to .50 Calibre (I wouldn't want to drag one of these around, let alone pull the trigger). That's how they pull of ridiculous things like 2400 metre shots.

On a side note, the .223 bullet is the same as whole lot of other, faster flatter trajectory cartridges. Does anyone know how(if?)a ballistics/forensics expert identifies the cartridge itself (unless you find it lieing on the ground)?

Mike


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TomDavidson
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To elaborate further on Ced's point: if the card does, indeed, say "I am God," then NO Muslim would have written it. Even a Muslim determined to disguise his own identity would understand that this kind of statement -- even made in a twisted form of self-defense -- would INSTANTLY prevent entry to Paradise.

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Dan Allen
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"On a side note, the .223 bullet is the same as whole lot of other, faster flatter trajectory cartridges. Does anyone know how(if?)a ballistics/forensics expert identifies the cartridge itself (unless you find it lieing on the ground)?"

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.
Are you asking how they determine what type of casing a particular bullet came from?


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Mike_W
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Dan,
.223 normally refers to a cartridge (specifically, the .223 Remington or 5.56 mm Nato). The .224 calibre bullet used by this cartridge is also used in a number of other cartridges. Some of these have considerably greater muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory that the .223 (e.g. 22-250, .220 Swift). I'm just curious how we know it is, in fact, .223 from just a recovered bullet. It's been almost 20 years since I studied any of this. The only thing I can think of is the bullet may be specific to a particular brand and cartridge of commercially available ammunition, or the twist of the barrel may be unique. Or, they found a spent casing. Or, .223 is merely convienient shorthand to avoid confusion (didn't help me).

That is all.

Mike


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Dan Allen
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Well, you've kind of answered your own question here (if I'm understanding it correctly.) The .223 is the caliber(size) of the bullet itself; of which they have recovered most, if not all used in these murders. The style of bullet will also tell them a lot about the cartridge that it came from; ie. if it's a .223 'ball' round, then it came from a NATO style military cartridge (5.56mm) since 'ball' isn't used in hunting or target rounds. Military rounds are very inexpensive, and very available in large quantities.
I believe that they can also 'deduce' from the impact damage, to the bullet, what velocity the bullet was fired at, and further deduce what size the cartridge would be. I've never done reloading, but according to friends that do you can define the bullet velocity fairly accurately by controlling the number of grains (amount of powder) you use. Since the number of grains in commercially loaded cartridges is predefined, it should be pretty easy to build a list of weapon types that can deliver a bullet at a specific velocity.

All that aside, I understand that they did find a casing at the same site as the tarot card message.

[This message has been edited by Dan Allen (edited October 15, 2002).]


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Shawnee Ranger
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You all bring up good points, but I'd like to add that multiple witnesses to last night's murder have ID'd the driver of the cream van as dark haired and olive skinned, possibly Hispanic or from the Middle East. I fully acknowledge that eyewitness accounts can be incredibly unreliable but it does provide food for thought.

In regard to the impossibility that a Muslim would use a Tarot Card or utter "I am God"; don't rely on that reasoning too much. According to my Muslim brother, and my colleagues on the PakNews forum, the animals of Al-Quaeda do lots of things that are considered Haraam (Immoral by Sharia standards). I can tell you from my experiences with the "haters" on the PakNews forum that these yuks have an uncanny ability to justify just about anything they decide to do. And they have done some disgustingly heinous things including killing women and kids. I'd also like to reiterate again that one of the hallmarks of Al-Qaeda is to NOT take credit for atrocities, at least not immediately. Much like this sniper represents an evolution in serial killers, Al-Quaeda is an evolved form of the prototypical M.E. terrorist. There is just something that smells funny to this one.

Having said all of that, I'm not certain that it is Muslim terrorists. Nobody can know for sure at this point what we're dealing with. It's just that this scum (Singular or plural) is defying a lot of the traditional patterns that are characteristic of the traditional sociopathic serial killer. About the only thing that seems to be typical is the "Kill Pressure" or "Prey Drive". I admit that my Psych degree is undergrad, but my mentor in the program worked for years as a profiler before the physical/emotional toll drove him from it. Just about every free topic paper that I wrote was about these scum.

My interest in them lies in the satisfaction of hunting the hunter. I had a scary life growing up under the thumb of a sadistic stepfather, and I married the first time into a sociopathic family that was part of the "EME" or the Mexican Mafia. I've been severely beaten, shot and stabbed all before the age of thirty. I learned quickly from my experiences that fighting back ferociously, or if you will, "Hunting the Hunters" is the only way to be safe in those cirumstances. My stepfather, my former inlaws and their "wolf" cohorts learned quickly that sometimes the "sheepdog" has fangs and is best left completely alone. This epiphany is what drove my interest in understanding serial killers. The only way to deal with people like that is to get in their head, hunt them down ruthlessly and.....well deal with them accordingly.

Anyway, that's more than most of you probably cared to know, but this is a "hobby" of mine if you will and I will state from a somewhat informed position that we are dealing with a unique new form of killer here. Where's "Dirty Harry" when we need him?-S.R.

[This message has been edited by Shawnee Ranger (edited October 15, 2002).]


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LetterRip
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See this paper for bullet identification
http://www.geocities.com/j_ksinha/cal.html

weight, diameter, characteristic rifle patterns etc.

LetterRip


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dyany
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I probably watch too many movies & read too much Agatha Christie, but a thought occurred to me as I read the reports today saying that the FBI agent killed last night was not working on the sniper investigation, so they are sure she was just another 'random' killing.
How better to cover up a /specific/ target, and therefore not only eliminate that target but all subsequent in-depth investigation into what she may have been investigating, than to kill a number of people 'on the side' and make this whole thing look random?

Otherwise, I don't have nearly enough information to make any speculations I feel confident about. We aren't given enough information for a psychological profile, and I think it entirely possible that this wacko may meet a 'profile,' just not one patently obvious with the information we have so far.

D


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Ron Lambert
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I think the killer is a Stephen King thriller type of villain, who has become addicted to the pure evil thrill of killing people. If he is finally captured alive, his attorneys of course will try to plead him as "innocent by reason of insanity," and many people will readily go along with the idea that he is suffering from a pathological psychosis. But I think the Stephen King view is right. Evil does exist, and this serial killer is evil. Not insane, not ill in any way, just evil, pure and simple. Anyone who refuses to believe that such exists, is living in denial of the real world.
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Shawnee Ranger
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Nicely answered Dan, you beat me to it. Btw I should amend the "stabbed" in my previous post to slashed and stabbed. I had a Vato come up from behind me at a Mexican dance and cut my throat from ear to larynx. I don't know if he was drunk or the blade was dull but he didn't touch the jugular and he only punctured my carotid on the left side. I shot him from the dance floor. I don't kow how he turned out as he was carried off by his friends and I never heard anything more about it. My friends called me "zipperneck" until the stitches were removed LOL!-S.R.
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Shawnee Ranger
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quote:
I probably watch too many movies & read too much Agatha Christie, but a thought occurred to me as I read the reports today saying that the FBI agent killed last night was not working on the sniper investigation, so they are sure she was just another 'random' killing.
How better to cover up a /specific/ target, and therefore not only eliminate that target but all subsequent in-depth investigation into what she may have been investigating, than to kill a number of people 'on the side' and make this whole thing look random?

I don't think you've watched too many movies, I call what you are doing "thinking outside of the box" and that is what is needed right now. It's gonna be somebody who is doing just that who is gonna bring this/these creep(s) down.-S.R.

[This message has been edited by Shawnee Ranger (edited October 15, 2002).]


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TomDavidson
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It's worth noting that snipers operating along the Virginia/Maryland border have a better than average chance of hitting someone working for a federal agency.

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Mike_W
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LR. Thanks for the link. It confirms my previous understanding of forensic ballistics. The recovered fragments identify bullet calibre (.224" in our case). The inference of .223 (a cartidge, not a calibre) must be based on the recovered casing Dan mentioned. Pretty much irrelevant to the main discussion but it did pique my curiosity.
Mike

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LetterRip
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Mike,

the bullet type could have also be infered from the rifiling pattern, presumably casings would not have been present at each shooting, and each bullet would be check for rifiling. SInce they claim it was the same shooter, the rifing pattern method must have been used in most of the instances (which can be used to show bullets were shot from the same gun.)

LetterRip


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Cedrios
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Um, it wouldn't be immoral for them to write that, it would DENY their religion. Islam means "submission." "I am God" hardly falls along those lines.

[This message has been edited by Cedrios (edited October 16, 2002).]


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Mike_W
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LR,
Agreed, the rifling pattern on the bullet will be unique to the barrel from which it was fired. This is how they prove it was the same gun. However, this may or may not be unique enough to prove a .223 Remington Chambered firearm. For example, I could use the exact same custom barrel, with, say, a one in twelve twist, to build a rifle in .222 Remington, .223 Reminton, .22-250, or .220 Swift.

Mike


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Tom Grey - Tigger
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A different anarchy, in some ways more terrible (no gun needed, just a mob):

Summary: Last week in Milwaukee, a 14 year-old teenager threw an egg at a man. The man in turn struck the teenager for throwing it, knocking out the teenager's tooth with the force of his hit. Other teenagers fought back against the man, a mob formed and the man was beaten to his death.
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1996


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Cedrios
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http://apnews.excite.com/article/20021024/D7MRSKUG0.html

it says he lives and was trained less than two miles from where I am right now!


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