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Author Topic: To condomize or not to condomize
cb
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In a previous thread (http://www.ornery.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=013679;p=1&r=nfx) BobDylanThomas asked me a direct question and, as I lost contact with that thread, I never responded.

When I ran across the thread again I felt his question deserved a post of its own; so here are the original posts:

quote:
cb: Even if a girl is on the pill or any of the several birth control duties assigned to the girl, the guy should always wear a condom. If he doesn't he's inconsiderate and selfish. (If it's the girl that insists on no sheath, then she gets what she deserves.) What good is "liberation" if the argument can still be made that the girl is to blame for the man not wearing a condom?
quote:
BobDylanThomas: The pill is 99% effective and if, and I admit this is a big "if", the two young people have not been promiscuous, or if they have, have had checkups and tests, with documentation, to make sure STDs are not an issue, sex is so so so much better without a condom. For both parties. So much better that it is ridiculous to insist the male wear a condom. And if they agree they are going to go the pill route for their mutual pleasure then it is incumbent on the female to make sure she has taken the pill.

Basically what I'm saying is that it is whomever the couple decides is responsible for the birth control is responsible for the birth control. Why in your mind this is strictly the males job is beyond me. In fact, if I had a daughter I would insist she be on the pill "in addition" to her sex partner wearing a condom. That way she has responsibility for herself no matter what. Why should she abdicate her responsibility for herself or put her very future in the hands of a horny teenage boy? Sounds foolish and irresponsible to me….

And what's up with this; "then he is inconsiderate and selfish" or "then she gets what she deserves". Kind of hard on the young people aren't you? Maybe even a little angry? I don't get it?”

To tell you the truth I made couple of mistakes when I was a teenager…So, maybe we should cut the youngster a bit of slack?

All that said; I placed a condom in my son's crib the day we brought him home. In the wrapper of course. I'm not crazy. [Smile] [/QB]

First of all – LOL – “In the wrapper of course. I'm not crazy”!!!

Secondly, I am hard on teens. I think we do them a grave disservice when our attitudes are, “I made a couple of mistakes when I was a teenager…So, maybe we should cut the youngster a bit of slack?”; especially when an innocent, completely dependent third party’s’ future is held in the balance.

Condoms protect 98% of the time (“With proper knowledge and application technique—and use at every act of intercourse—women whose partners use male condoms experience a 2% per-year pregnancy rate,” Wikipedia). This is nearly as effective as the pill. The problem with both of these forms of protection is the proper application of both.

It always amazes me that we as a society have accepted the “logic” that teens are “mature” enough to decide for themselves when to have sex, and yet it is often their immaturity that keeps them from taking the pill as prescribed or to hold off the need long enough to use the protective tools available. If that immaturity leads to pregnancy, we as a society excuse the stupidity and immaturity with the “there but by the grace of God go I” philosophy. Meanwhile, another generational link is crippled by immature parenting, lack of two parents in the home (or the pain of divorce later), and often the innocent victims of this immaturity become wards of the state either through welfare or CPS action.

So if I was going to “cut the slack” for anyone, I would want to cut the slack for the innocent victims, not the spoiled, selfish teens who are enabled by a far too lax society that indulges their sexual misconducts and then allows them to walk away from their responsibilities.

What are your thoughts?

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scifibum
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I favor the triple threat: Condom + Pill + nobody ever touch my daughter.

Seriously, redundant birth control is a great idea. Always, always use a condom is what I will teach my kids (including the girl). And never, never do anything that necessitates a condom. But if you do, always use a condom. And make sure the girl is on birth control and you're using spermicidal lube.

The goal is for them never to figure out it feels better without the condom. Until they are married for 5 years, and go in for fertility treatment and the doctor has to break the news.

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MattP
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I think that it's unfortunate that the current state of our biology is such that sex is desirable and accessible at a younger age than is practical for the current state of our society. I do think we should teach our kids to be responsible and then not be all that surprised when they aren't responsible. The mind of a teen is fundamentally different than that of an adult, I was a very different person at that age than I am now and am frankly aghast at some of my teenage hijinx.

What, in practical terms, does it mean to cut them some slack or not?

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cb
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:


What, in practical terms, does it mean to cut them some slack or not?

I think it was because I said they got what they deserve. That may have come across as harsh, but honestly...don't you think our teens are mollycoddled into idiocy?

By the way, that was no more harsh than Pres Obama saying he didn't want his girls punished with a baby.

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cb
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I favor the triple threat: Condom + Pill + nobody ever touch my daughter.

Seriously, redundant birth control is a great idea. Always, always use a condom is what I will teach my kids (including the girl). And never, never do anything that necessitates a condom. But if you do, always use a condom. And make sure the girl is on birth control and you're using spermicidal lube.

The goal is for them never to figure out it feels better without the condom. Until they are married for 5 years, and go in for fertility treatment and the doctor has to break the news.

You sound like my kind of mom!!! [LOL]
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scifibum
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I, uh, thanks.
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Funean
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<laughing hysterically> someone break the news to asmalls4, and please tape it.

The older (and more frustrated) I get the less sympathy I have for randy teens. Do without, you little rodents. You most certainly will once you have children! That aside, if they're too immature to make good decisions about sex, they're certainly too immature to parent.

Honestly, the most important thing to do for teens is to make darn sure they understand how their bodies work. What causes pregnancy, what doesn't, what methods of prevention work and don't work, and perhaps most important of all--how very strong the biological impulse is. It's a lot harder to believe you won't die of it when it takes you by surprise. [Big Grin]

Also, make them work in a daycare. That has exponentially increased the commitment not to have children until MUCH later in every teen I've observed in this position. [Wink]

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PSRT
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quote:
The older (and more frustrated) I get the less sympathy I have for randy teens. Do without, you little rodents. You most certainly will once you have children!
So, be unhappy and frustrated now, and be unhappy and frustrated later? [Smile]
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Dave at Work
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cb, I think that scifibum would more likely be your kind of dad.

Scifibum, I would back up your triple threat by displaying a shotgun above the mantle that will be easily seen by prospective boyfriends coming by to pick up your daughter. If local ordinances require keeping such weapons locked up, keep it in a gun safe in the living room and make a point of taking it out and cleaning it when prospective boyfriends come calling.

Edited to add: The shotgun cleaning is especially effective when it is accompanied by a lecture as to the time and condition said daughter is to be returned to the care of her parents. I know from experience having been in the shoes of the prospective boyfriend in this scenario once or twice back in my teen years.

[ November 02, 2009, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Dave at Work ]

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Funean
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Knife sharpening also works.
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scifibum
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What about those farmer's daughter jokes? He's always convincingly menacing, but the daughter always seduces the traveling salesman anyway. [Frown]
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PSRT
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Knife sharpening REALLY works if you butcher animals for a living.
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Funean
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Or geld them.
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BobDylanThomas
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Here's the whole original discussion. Amazing how much difference context makes.
quote:
G2--So WTF is up with this guy? He's a 19 year old high school drop out, an apsiring actor (LOL) and a model - if you count snaking the world in Playgirl modeling. His only claim to fame is being stupid enough that he can't figure out how to work a condom.
quote:
KE--Seriously, he is an idiot, but he is a hick kid that got thrown into the national spotlight for making a mistake that is responsible for 90% of marriages in the US. And those are the good guys that are honorable enough to marry the girl. Do we know for sure that he messed up the condom? Maybe she said she was on the Pill? Maybe she was on the pill but forgot to take it? There are a lot of things that could account for a young girl getting pregnant.

Then CB draws the wrong conclusion from what I said.
quote:
CB--This is an interesting quote just to note that there still seems to be a definite bias as to whose job it is to protect against pregnancy. Even if a girl is on the pill or any of the several birth control duties assigned to the girl, the guy should always wear a condom. If he doesn't he's inconsiderate and selfish. (If it's the girl that insists on no sheath, then she gets what she deserves.) What good is "liberation" if the argument can still be made that the girl is to blame for the man not wearing a condom?

That aside aside, this puke of a man would be yesterday's news yesterday if there wasn't some hope at CBS that he will someday give them the dirt on Sarah.

The fact is CB was asserting that birth-control is “always” the male’s responsibility. That if he doesn’t wear a condom, even if she tells him she is on the pill and leaves it up to him, he is “inconsiderate and selfish.” Oh, and he’s a “puke of a man”. And again he attacks his own strawman “What good is “liberation” if the argument can still be made that the girl is to blame for the man not wearing a condom?” I never said the girl is to blame for the male not wearing a condom! I said that G2’s characterization of Levi was only a self-serving guess and that it ”could” be the girls fault. Of course that is Saint Sarah Palin’s daughter so of course any good conservative would insist that it was the boy’s fault. I have sons, that I’ve taught to use a condom since they were the age I started having sex (I wasn’t totally kidding about the condom in the crib), but I don’t think it is right to crucify this boy for a very common mistake.

The truth is I don't have any bias as to who's job it is to be responsible for birth control. Both parties have a responsibility and if they are mature enough to have sex they should be mature enough to figure it out. And I totally support the “don’t let them ever find out how much better it is without a condom” school of thought. (Same reason I’ve never tried heroin.) All I was saying was that G2 had no way of knowing if this kid was guilty of messing up the condom. And the kid (Levi) is who I was suggesting we "cut a little slack".

As much fun as it might be to beat this strawman I wasn’t advocating we let teenagers have irresponsible sex and abandon or abort the result. I can pretend that’s what I meant if you are really intent on whacking the scarecrow around some more?

quote:
So if I was going to “cut the slack” for anyone, I would want to cut the slack for the innocent victims, not the spoiled, selfish teens who are enabled by a far too lax society that indulges their sexual misconducts and then allows them to walk away from their responsibilities.

Holy ****.

Once again from the top in case anybody missed it; I was advocating “cutting the youngster some slack” meaning Levi whom G2 and CB have tried, judged, and were executing, NOT as CB so lovingly calls them, ”the spoiled, selfish teens who are enabled by a far too lax society that indulges their SEXUAL MISCONDUCT and then allows them to walk away from their responsibilities.”

quote:
What are your thoughts?
My thoughts now are the same as they were on that first thread; I'm wondering why you have so much animosity towards teenagers?

Hey, you asked.

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cherrypoptart
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If the young, teen parents in America have a child they aren't ready for and didn't plan on, is it better off that the baby never existed at all?

If so, what does that say about all the poor people around the world such as in Africa and parts of South America and Asia? Should those people just not have kids at all? Surely some of the poorest, most incompetent teens in America can raise children with more of everything than people in some of the poorest parts of the world where people still literally starve to death.

On the one hand, yeah kids should be more responsible, but on the other hand, if the baby is already here I'm not going to say they are better off not existing. And when they get just a little bit older, most of them will probably agree with me. They aren't mistakes or punishments. They're babies. Children. Human beings.

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asmalls4
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
<laughing hysterically> someone break the news to asmalls4, and please tape it.

What news would that be? [Wink]
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LinuxFreakus
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This has got to be some sort of joke. ALWAYS use a condom unless you are prepared for the possibility of being a parent. Yeah a woman could say she is on the pill, but you don't really know. You just can't trust people who you don't know well enough yet. Women have been "accidentally" getting pregnant for years, lying about the pill, or poking holes in condoms. Crazy people will stop at nothing to get what they want.

So yeah, always use your OWN condoms. Its not all rainbows and unicorns, this is the real world.

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Pete at Home
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: sex ed classes are almost a total waste unless it's paired with teaching boys about the legal consequences of knocking a girl up. Hold the little bastards back a grade if they can't compute what percentage of their burger king income that they would pay for getting two different girls pregnant.
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TommySama
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What ever happened to the rich tradition of leaving unwanted/superfluous babies on a hillside?
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Rallan
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Wait, pregnancy is the one big thing we should be stressing to teenagers here?

Damn, if I'd known that I could've saved so much money in my younger years by just not using condoms whenever anal, oral, or another guy was involved.

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Pyrtolin
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Scare tactics don't work very well against most people, unless they've had a highly personal encounter that strips away their inherent sense of invulerability. And they younger and more sheltered the person (like many, if not most, teens) the less likely they are to have had such an encounter.

The information that sticks the best is that which helps them feel more in control of themselves of the things happening to them. Not that the consequences shouldn't be illustrated, but giving them primary weight will only serve to make them more likely dismissed as an overbearing assertion of authority (that needs to be rebelled against).

Objectively giving as much information as possible that can be used productively, on the other hand, leaves the feeling of control in their hands, and will generally encourage them to decide on their own to act more responsbily- especially in areas that our culture does a poor job of educating about (or outright injects misinformation and distortion) such as understanding power dynamics and dealing with senses of entitlement in social interactions. (Most rape and sexual assault could be eliminated by more comprehensinve teaching of those two topics)

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cb
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quote:
Here's the whole original discussion. Amazing how much difference context makes.


You know Bob, I argued with myself about whether to post the whole conversation and decided instead to post the link and then quote just the pertinent (IMO) parts to which I wanted to respond. I didn't mean to take you out of context or cause a straw-man scenario.


quote:
Then CB draws the wrong conclusion from what I said.
quote:
CB: That aside aside,
Did I mentioned this was an aside/commentary not drawing a conclusion?


quote:
I never said the girl is to blame for the male not wearing a condom! I said that G2’s characterization of Levi was only a self-serving guess and that it ”could” be the girls fault. Of course that is Saint Sarah Palin’s daughter so of course any good conservative would insist that it was the boy’s fault.
Talk about straw man! First you mistake me for a guy (which is really ok since I seemed to have done the same thing to SciFiBum [DOH] *blush* ) then you take my ASIDE and make it about my supposed concern for Sarah's daughter. LOL! Did you notice I said the girl deserves the consequences of her actions as much as the boy?

And you still did say there was a possibility that pregnancy was the girls fault. That was what brought about the aside in the first place. In this modern era, where STDs are epidemic, I don't care if tests show you are clean (some STD's don't show up for a year to several years after contracted)...boys/men should always wear condoms until they have been in a committed relationship for long enough to know both parties are clean of STDs.

quote:
no way of knowing if this kid was guilty of messing up the condom. And the kid (Levi) is who I was suggesting we "cut a little slack".
Point well taken, and I apologize for extrapolating beyond your meaning.


quote:
cb: So if I was going to “cut the slack” for anyone, I would want to cut the slack for the innocent victims, not the spoiled, selfish teens who are enabled by a far too lax society that indulges their sexual misconducts and then allows them to walk away from their responsibilities.
quote:
BDT: My thoughts now are the same as they were on that first thread; I'm wondering why you have so much animosity towards teenagers?

Hey, you asked.

Yes I did ask, and I’m glad you answered. My "animosity" (I would call it tuff love or concerned sterness) towards teens probably comes from having raised 4 of them, having fostered several and having worked with more than I probably should have for my sanity’s sake.

I see the ravages of teen pregnancy daily and close up. I see the babies as ones who suffer most (no offence Cherry, but I don't believe the emotional and physical abuse I’ve seen at the hands of teen parents is less torture than starvation in 3rd World countries; granted not all teens end up physically abusing but almost all abuse emotionally) and ALL my sympathies go to the babies and very little to the teens. The teens are old enough to make choices and believe me, many times the choice to become pregnant is very deliberate…which is another reason boys should always wear condoms.

[ November 03, 2009, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: cb ]

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TommySama
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"The teens are old enough to make choices..."

This is a bogus double standard people toss around all the time (not just you, in general). All rights and responsibilities are taken by children and teens, anything they are "responsible" for is coerced by threat of violence or discipline. Of course teenagers make bad decisions - they've never had to make any for themselves in their entire life. We can't simultaneously take all power of choice from a group of people and expect them to develop a strong sense of personal responsibility at the same time. Sometimes parents might succeed at teaching the kid some sense of responsibility; otherwise they learn by teaching to be irresponsible.

-I do think responsibility should be expected, but some understanding should still exist. If we teach them irresponsibility, its not exactly fair to attack them for it.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
Scare tactics don't work very well against most people

Since when is giving someone accurate information about the legal consequences of their actions a "scare tactic"?

Whether the information changes their behavior or not, it is GROSS NEGLIGENT to pretend to educate these kids about sex while not telling them of a legal consequence that could shatter their lives.

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cb
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quote:
Cherry: On the one hand, yeah kids should be more responsible, but on the other hand, if the baby is already here I'm not going to say they are better off not existing. And when they get just a little bit older, most of them will probably agree with me. They aren't mistakes or punishments. They're babies. Children. Human beings.
I hope anything I said wasn't mistaken for support of causing those babies mistakenly conceived to be made nonexistant. My schpiel was actually a referandum against societal norms that create a cushion of acceptance around our irresponsible teens. Society's embrace and support of teen parenting is making it more and more celebrated.

My client's child (13 years old) became pregnant (though I was involved with the sex education she received at 10, 11, and 12). She went to Planned Parenthood and was told the choice as to what to do next was completely hers...at 13!!!!

All her friends were excited for her. She got all kinds of attention during her pregnancy from her teachers, counselors and family members. After the baby was born she was given several showers that netted her several hundred dollars worth of gifts for herself and the baby.

With the birth of the baby, she became her own welfare recipient and also received support from DSHS for her baby. She has her own apartment now and has dropped out of school and is not working.

Now what message did this scenario send to her contemporaries. Within 6 months of this child's pregnancy, two of her friends were also pregnant.

The very best thing we could do as a society is to praise and support these teens in giving their babies up for adoption. That would be best for all parties, especially the innocent babies.

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asmalls4
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When I was a teenager I made a lot of stupid choices. Like Tommy said, " they have never had to make any for themselves. " That is a very true statement. Most teens have not had to make decisions on their own. So when it comes time to making a big choice, like having sex, a lot of the time they make the wrong choice and have unprotected sex. Unless they have been told over and over and over again how important using a condom is, they won't know the correct choice and will most likely end up with and STD or a pregnancy. So the knowledge on what to do should be coming from their parents and sex ed instructors. And if they make the same bad decision after that then it will be their fault if they catch a disease or get pregnant. But they do need help to know what the right choice is in that kind of situation.

And scifi- I will be standing right next to you at our front door when a boy comes to ask our daughter on a date. I will be holding the shovel and you can hold the shot gun. That should help him understand that he better not lay a hand on our daughter. [Smile] And our boys will be taught to keep their hands to themselves also lest their girlfriends parents be in the same mind set we are. "Touch my daughter and your ass is grass my friend."

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by BobDylanThomas:
All I was saying was that G2 had no way of knowing if this kid was guilty of messing up the condom.

Condoms have about a 2% failure rate when properly used so maybe he did use it properly and it failed. Sure, why not. Everything he's done since then indicates a young man of high virtue and discretion who considers the consequences of his actions and the effects it will have on others - particularly his child. Right? "Tell alls" of dubious merit on Oprah or CBS News targeting the family of his child, posing in Playgirl, etc., all that tells us what a great guy this is and that he's the very model of teenage responsibility. He's a peach of a guy alright, just the kind of guy every parent wants his daughter to date. Yeah, sure. [Roll Eyes]

You've certainly made clear that you hate Palin and I think what this comes down to is you will defend literally anyone that has anything negative to say about someone from the Palin family. I don't think you care about the source or the truth, just that it hurts someone from the Palin family. I don't think you even care just a great deal about the target either, anyone with the last name Palin will do although I'm sure Sarah Palin would be preferred.

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MattP
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quote:
She went to Planned Parenthood and was told the choice as to what to do next was completely hers...at 13!!!!
This seems incongruous with your earlier statement that they "deserve what they get." In one case you are suggesting diminished judgement and in the other your are suggesting the opposite.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by cb:
Now what message did this scenario send to her contemporaries. Within 6 months of this child's pregnancy, two of her friends were also pregnant.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

It's rather tenuous to draw that connection directly when so many other variables are in play. That's not to say that some kids don't try to play the system that way, but, when talking about those who make an active choice to get pregnant, there's not much to say that they wouldn't rationalize their choice some other way.

quote:
The very best thing we could do as a society is to praise and support these teens in giving their babies up for adoption. That would be best for all parties, especially the innocent babies.
So no real reduction of teen pregnancy, with rewards for stepping away from all long term responsibility?

I don't disagree that making adoption a less stigmatized choice is a good idea, but think of the above spin that could be put on such a plan. It only works if all such pregnancies are honest mistakes, but you've already asserted that there is a deeper motivation- attention, attachment, rewards- behind many of them, so, on its own, shifting the rewards do little to help.

The problem needs to be addressed preemptively by looking at how to resonably prevent accidental pregnancies and how to address the social and economic situations that create pressure toward early pregnancy. Removing supports that prevent it from being a life destroying event is unjustly punative, so the answer must necessarily lie in making the rewards for not getting pregnant much more tangible while at the same time actively and openly dicussing the biological imperatives that teens are facing but not yet used to dealing with so that they can learn more quickly how to stay in control.

A good starting point, though, would be making it easier to get the same kind of support and attention that's given to pregnant teens without the getting pregnant part. The causes are all over the map, but they're actually addressable on one way or another. Once the pregnancy has happened, though, the game becomes a choice of least-evils; it's damage control, not fixing the problem any more.

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cb
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
She went to Planned Parenthood and was told the choice as to what to do next was completely hers...at 13!!!!
This seems incongruous with your earlier statement that they "deserve what they get." In one case you are suggesting diminished judgment and in the other your are suggesting the opposite.
I don't see the incongruence Matt. My point of the four exclamation points was to highlight the stupidity of a society that tells a 13 year old that because now she is pregnant, she is magically now capable of making major life's choices entirely on her own. Planned Parenthoods message was clear..."You don't have to listen to anyone...just do what you FEEL is best." Another person's life is supposed to be dependent on a 13 year olds FEELINGS!!

[ November 03, 2009, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: cb ]

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threads
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What did Planned Parenthood actually say? The way you initially described it makes it seem like the message was "we aren't going to pressure you into getting an abortion". That seems unobjectionable.
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IrishTD
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"<Insert boy's name here>, I've got no problems going back to prison."

Helps with the knife/shotgun.

****
As an aside, we had a case around here where the dad/stepdad shot at the naked 20 year old male that he found with his naked 16 year old {step}daughter.

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asmalls4
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Sounds like that kid got what he deserved. I hope the dad was able to leave a mark. Kind of a reminder not to mess with his under age daughter.
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DonaldD
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One can hope that the step father was then charged with improper use of a firearm (at the very least) and possibly attempted murder, depending on the situation.

As an aside, in the vast majority of US states (31 states + DC) the age of consent is 16. Meaning this gun-toting nutbar put several people's health and possibly lives at risk for what is not even a crime in most of the country.

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NobleHunter
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I find it objectionable that it is considered permissible to threaten young men with deadly force for engaging in legal activity.

I realize such comments are rarely made seriously, but they reflect a continuing double standard in regards to sexual morality.

How many people would threaten (even jokingly) a prospective girlfriend for their son to prevent sexual activity?

And I now have the amusing image of my dad trying to intimidate my ex-girlfriend. Heh.

[ November 03, 2009, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: NobleHunter ]

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asmalls4
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I wasn't suggesting that what the step dad did was in any way legal or fantastic. I was joking. And I would be chasing girls out of my house as well as boys if I caught them having sex with my children. It doesn't matter if it is a young man or a young woman. Not under my roof ya don't. My sons would be in just as much trouble as my daughter would be. There is no double standard there.
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BobDylanThomas
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CB,

I think I understand where you are coming from now. Thank you.

And I think we both want the same things. I couldn't have an abortion or pressure a girl into one, and I shudder to think what the world would be like if at 19 I'd found I could. I think where we, probably, differ, is that I don't think the state should tell a woman what to do with her body any more than I should. Obviously the case is different and much more complicated with minors like your client.

I generally try to stay out of abortion arguments. I wish, and wish is not a strong enough word, that they never had to happen. I wish we'd teach our children responsibility and respect for themselves and others. (And again I'm not against condom use. In fact, I absolutely insist on it. Ask my sons. [Smile] )

The other day I emailed my wife a picture of a, what was he 11 weeks old, baby boy, that reached out of the opening the surgeon had made in his mother's abdomen and grabbed the doctors finger. Just thinking of that act, and the ramifications, breaks my heart. I am against telling women what they can do with their bodies but I am against late-term abortions. Against abortions past the point that the baby is at all cognizant and or could live a healthy life outside the womb. It's a fine line and one that I try to walk without telling women what they can do with their bodies and without feeling it necessary to to blow up abortion clinics. (Yes, Tom, I know you disagree but if I truly believed babies where being killed in any building I would feel it my duty as a man to stop it. And if the law wouldn't what recourse do we have? Do we really have to rehash all this? Come on Tom, lay off. [Smile] Yes, TomD has become the little voice of reason on my shoulder. Fortunately I don't listen to him very often. [Wink] )

If all that doesn't do it, CB, ma'am, [Smile] just so you know where I'm coming from; the day I held our newborn son, our mistake, not punishment, in my arms I had no idea I'd end up crying as hard as he was. And now 20 years later he is the best man I've ever known. Far better a man than his father. (He's at the University of Texas, on the dean's list his sophomore year, and I miss him.) His younger brother was three when a table fell on him and broke his skull broken in four places, his right orbital structure crushed, his nose broken, and the temporal lobe in his brain cut while playing at church as my father the police officer watched him, his brother, and about 15 other kids play. Both his eyes swoll shut so big they glowed purple. The blood from his head and that was coming out his nose, mouth, and both ears soaked my shirt as I cradled him in my arms on the way to the hospital and tried to explain to him why he couldn't see and assure him that he was going to be okay. The first hospital told us he was going to die, but we could life-flight him "if we wanted to". Of course we did and after three surgeries the doctors at Herman's Children's Hospital performed a miracle and saved his life. Fourteen years later he is running around like it never happened. But since then I have been especially sensitive to children's pain. It just kills me inside to see them hurt. The point is; I love kids. So, contrary to what some may "speculate about my motives" I was just seeing me and my sons in Levi and trying to point out that we don't know the circumstances of his and Palin's daughters relationship and certainly not what led to her becoming pregnant. The suggestion that I would attack Palin's daughter is disgusting...(Funean?)

Much worse things happened once we got him to the hospital, things that still give me nightmares. But, those things could be used to hurt me and I wouldn't be able to control myself. In fact, I hesitated to once again share any personal information here at OA, since some, two, of our members have shown a willingness to use any personal info they could scavenge to insult and bait other members, (Pete and I. You can ask Pete how I responded when it was done to him and that will prove I wasn't just angry because it was being done to me last time.). But I want CB and anyone else that cares to know where I'm coming from...

I have to discuss things with Fun, before I say more. [Smile]

I think it would help if parents acted like parents again and raised their children with a sense of honor and self-respect. If they taught their sons honor and not to treat women like objects and toys but as people and equals, and if they taught their girls to respect themselves and to recognize those characteristics in the males they consider letting have sex with them.

I will now 'not' deliver a sermon on how Girls Gone Wild is exhibit A on what is wrong with our country.

KE

PS, I was just able to get my company to give our annual charitable donation to Herman's Children's Hospital in Houston, Texas. If anybody wants to give to charity you would be hard pressed to do better. Thanks.

[ November 03, 2009, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: BobDylanThomas ]

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NobleHunter
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[intentionally contrary]
KE,
Shouldn't daughters also be taught to treat men as people and equals and not toys and objects? Shouldn't boys respect themselves and to recognize those characteristics in the females (or males for that matter) they consider letting have sex with them?
[/intentionally contrary]

I think how gender plays out in these discussions is a big reason why problems continue to exist. I don't think the sexual responsibilities of an individual change because of their plumbing.

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BobDylanThomas
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I would have thought girls respecting themselves and the importance of teenagers of whichever sex having all those positive ideas and attributes instilled in them was implicit in what I said? But I should have remembered where I was at and that anything that can be at all skewed to allow someone to be "ornery" would so be skewed. [Smile] However, I'll be thrilled if that little snit of contrariness is all the flack I get out of that whole long post. [Smile] We all wear our own colored glasses. If we're smart we know what color they are and make adjustments for reality.

I know some of it sounds kind of sexist, Noble. But I was talking about the real world and not the PC one some wished we live in. Girls decide who they let have sex with them, boys do not. Unless you are talking about homosexuals and that is a different conversation.

Edited to add: Yes, the responsibilities are the same, but the dynamics of the sexual relationships are very different. Different, depending on, what Noble oh so crudely termed, their "plumbing". The real "problem" is an unwillingness to deal with reality. The reality that males and females are different and that those differences lead to a different responsibilities. To insist that we talk about males and females as if they are the same in terms of power and responsibility in deciding and having sex is a delusion that causes problems. Not the inability of a recovering chauvinist to use the proper adjectives and pronouns in the correct order on a Internet forum.

KE

[ November 03, 2009, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: BobDylanThomas ]

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NobleHunter
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My post was more about language than actual meaning. The contrariness was present because I was pretty sure you meant the answers to my questions to be implicit in your post.

There are differences between boys and girls but I'm not sure they are inherent. Sex and gender differences are highly constructed and vary over time.

Do girls decide who they let have sex with them because our culture makes it so? Are boys pressured into pursuing sex because we expect them to?

Are the power dynamics in typical sexual relationships determined more by biology, or culture?

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