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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Halt the Decline of Ornery (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Halt the Decline of Ornery
BobDylanThomas
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This thread is for any of you that care about the forum and those that would like to see it return to being somewhere special as it was in days past. If you don't care it will just bore you so please disregard. [Smile]

I came back from my "suspension", and pledged to turn over a new leaf, and G2 writes this about me and why I defended Levi from the vicious vulgar attacks leveled against him by G2 and others:

quote:
G2- You've certainly made clear that you hate Palin and I think what this comes down to is you will defend literally anyone that has anything negative to say about someone from the Palin family. I don't think you care about the source or the truth, just that it hurts someone from the Palin family. I don't think you even care just a great deal about the target either, anyone with the last name Palin will do although I'm sure Sarah Palin would be preferred.
I was going to make the rule breaches in G2's post bold, but the whole thing is a rule breach.

Blatant "motive speculation" which is against the rules of the forum. Blatantly accusations of lying also against the rules. And then insinuating that I would attack Palin's daughter ala David Letterman.

Since I had made that pledge I bit my lip, and instead of replying to those personal insults and breaches of the public contract, that we all agreed to when coming here and joining the forum, I sent this to the Moderator:

quote:
My email to the Mod:
Are we allowed to questions peoples motives now? Before I respond to G2 I wanted to know if it is okay that he is calling me a liar and saying that the only reason I am defending this kid is because I hate Palin.

I'll tell you, and just you because G2 has already proven that he will use any personal information to insult and bait me, the main reason I defend him. *****************************. ***********************. *************************. *********************. *****************. **********************. (Personal info deleted for my own safety and piece of mind.)
And for people to judge that kid based on what they say in the media when the girls mom has a propaganda machine and he's just a kid, is unfair.

I told you all that to show that I am not defending him because I dislike Palin. And when G2 makes accusations like that he is just attempting to pick a fight. I'm trying to avoid that. For the sake of the forum. I'm really not happy at what has happened to my place. And I'm trying not to be part of the problem. I'll wait to hear from you.

And here's what I got back from Hobsen. The Mod who thinks it's important to publicly correct spelling mistakes and who has been more hands-on, or intrusive depending on you pov, than any other mod in the history of the forum.


quote:
Hobsen the Mod's reply to my request for help:

"My last email was from Funean remarking you were managing to stay away from G2 pretty well. So he thinks you hate the Palins. Who cares about that? Or about his own opinions of that family? Or of Levi whoever?

What he said probably violates the Ornery rule about motive speculation, but I do not see you suffered enough harm to justify banning him for it. If I ban people for every small infraction, not only will it waste my time but people will stop paying attention. So you can ignore him, or reply in kind and escalate the situation until one or both of you gets banned. That is up to you.

OrneryMod - hobsen (I highlighted Hobsen's idea of a [/b]"solution"[/b])

He admits that G2 was violating the rules and only someone willfully ignorant or a fool could fail to see that G2 was insulting and baiting me. Yet he refuses to do anything and instead threatens me with banning. Why would he threaten the member who came to him for help instead of escalating the situation instead of the one he admits is violating the rules?!! Surely it's not personal animosity? Surely nothing as petty as that?

And I wasn't asking for the Moderator to "ban" or "suspend" G2, just warn him or at least point out he was breaking the rules so he'll stop doing it.

Is it too much to ask that he warn G2? Is doing nothing or banning him the only choices he has?

And why when he sticks his nose in so many other places like spelling mistakes does he refuse to confront G2 about his blatant disregard for the rules and his continuous insults? Does G2 have pictures of Hobsen playing golf with Satan? Are they related? I really don't get it.

But Hobsen's right; if he just sits on his hands it is only a matter of time before G2 picks and picks and picks at me or other members until somebody will go off on him. Thus lowering the level of dialogue in the forum. And we run the risk of losing another good member, either because Hobsen punishes that member, which he refuses to do to G2, or because the member leaves.

Does anyone think it is a coincidence that we've lost so many good members right about the time Hobsen became Mod and G2 became untouchable? Or that so many of those members cite trolls and rule violations as the reason they left?


quote:
So you can ignore him, or reply in kind and escalate the situation until one or both of you gets banned. That is up to you.
Why does the person insulted by G2 have to "ignore him or get banned"? Does that seem remotely fair to anybody?

If Hobsen doesn't do something, like the job he volunteered to do, it is up to us to save our forum. If there aren't enough of us left that care about the forum to stop a single member from lowering the level of integrity of the entire forum then it is already too late to save Ornery.

I don't think it is to late. I know that many of you care about this place as much as I do.

So, I ask you to email Hobsen and ask him to do his job. I think private emails would be best for the board. But, if he continues to refuse to even warn those members that repeatedly disregard the rules of the forum, and who have repeatedly show that they have no respect for any of the other members, I suggest we gather up a list of members and either through contacting Mark or one of the old mods contact the Card's and ask them to appoint somebody that will perform the duties of the Mod.

I will continue to do my best to keep my pledge and not break any of the forum rules in spirit or letter. I'm not angry, just frustrated and bewildered.

Most of you have my email but for those of you who don't if you have thoughts or suggestions on this matter please contact me at; knightender@gmail.com.

KE

[ November 05, 2009, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: BobDylanThomas ]

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threads
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It probably would have been better to send hobsen another email expressing your concerns with his policies before posting this publicly.

I tend to agree with hobsen that G2's opinion should probably just be ignored here. That said, people interpret personal attacks in different ways and if an attack is legitimately against the rules then I don't think a mod should ignore it just because he wouldn't mind if the attack were targeted at him. Mods should enforce the rules.

[ November 05, 2009, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: threads ]

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Rallan
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I'm very much from the "suck it up" school of thought. G2 can be annoying, but it's not like he's running around deliberately trying to make Ornery a worse place. I can't speak for absolutely everyone, but personally I'm much happier with moderators who only intervene when things hit critical mass than with moderators who enforce the letter of the rules every time someone gets annoyed in an argument and files a complaint.

Also, publically starting a thread to talk about how much another poster sucks (complete with a public airing of PMs) is generally considered fairly crappy form. Nobody likes a tattletale.

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RickyB
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Just ignore him. Pete is a poster (and a person) of infinitely more value than the troll you're talking about and I managed to decide to simply ignore him when it became too much. I totally understand your frustration, but you really are ignoring the obvious out here. Or ask Red for his ignore script [Smile] (or whoever it was said they came up with one).
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LetterRip
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RickyB,

Pretty sure it was G2 who had the ignore script [Smile]

LetterRip

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hobsen
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Since BobDylanThomas likes quoting emails, I shall merely quote the last paragraph of one I sent regarding his previous ban,
quote:
Just the same BDT has been here a long time, and he has plenty of good qualities. So he can stay here as long as he likes, but if he continues his present course of action he may spend an unusually large amount of time banned. And in this case I shall do something to make up for any possible injustice by turning him loose at 4 p.m. or so tomorrow, so he can post in the evening if he wants. But with his fervent admiration for funean and scifibum, I wish he conformed a little more to their behavior...

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seekingprometheus
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I dunno, John.

I don't really understand the criteria hobsen uses for banning, but my general opinion is that the less moderation the better.

I'm inclined to think that as long as people aren't brazenly uncivil--resorting to overt intimidation or spiteful personal insult and such--that moderation should be largely unnecessary, and rarely imposed.

My personal guess regarding the "decline" of the level of ornery discourse is that the ornery "golden age" was probably a product of the Bush presidency. The policies of that administration created an incredibly sharp division of the country, and were presented in a way in which they were largely perceived as either literally insanely unreasoning, or incredibly courageous and *inspired.*

People were at an entirely different level of politically discursive fervor because of the amazingly polarizing climate that developed during that administration. People felt an acute need to speak up, to get involved--to advocate for their civil ideals. And within that fervor, this site filled what I think was a very interesting niche--where demanding, highly intellectual, but stubbornly demotic discourse was available. There was greater churn, therefore more cream rose to the top.

I think the central event in the decline was Bush leaving office. People may have strong opinions regarding Obama's political opinions and policies, but his administration thus far isn't really that polarizing (relatively speaking). At least, he's not really grabbing the country and unrelentingly dragging it in a polarizing direction. This administration appears to be much more about compromise and image control--politics--especially when you consider that the strong majority the dems have in congress.

Health care and fiscal policy talk is hugely important and all, but the urgency for discourse simply isn't as great now that the most important seat of world power isn't surrounded by an atmosphere of impending apocalypse, where citizens seem to be compelled to choose a side in a political drama being cast as "good" vs "evil."

The Bush administration essentially invoked a divine (or at least mortally important) mandate and pursued its agenda with the corresponding level of zeal, utilizing the threat of an apocalypse to consolidate political capital.

Obama's administration (so far) invokes liberal ideals, focuses largely on domestic issues and the quotidian consequences of administrative changes, and the current administration buys it's political capital in a less compelling way--in exchange for important sounding, largely empty rhetoric.

It's not the posters here, it's the subject matter. And banning or not banning members isn't going to change that.

In any case, regarding G2:

He certainly is, in my opinion, one of the most blatant trolls here, but I tend to think that the best response to trolls is either no response, or simply to understand their game and play along.

You either ignore them, and hope they'll go away, so you can cross your bridges in peace, or you learn the answer to their trollish riddle, and prod them in their soft spot to turn them away whenever they appear to demand their toll.

P.S. I think G2's riddle is actually quite simple, and his soft spot, btw, is being condescended to, especially in regard to his ability to comprehend the complex nature of issues.

[ November 05, 2009, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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PSRT
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Or, instead of banning people who get prodded by people who violate the rules in almost every post, you could do your job and enforce the rules of the forum.

The rule against motive speculation is one of the most important rules to enforce if you want civil discourse. But you've decided NOT to enforce it as a matter of policy. That's your fault... not our fault for pointing out that this is a bad decision.

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Funean
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This stuff reminds me a lot of a thing that I've been dealing with with my kids.

Scenario A:

Kid 1 annoys Kid 2. Kid 2 retaliates viciously, far in excess of the offense, then tattles on Kid 1. Kid 2 is baffled when I fail to react as strongly as s/he'd like to Kid 1's offense and is outraged that now s/he is in trouble too.

After repeated communications and explanations about the problems inherent in Scenario A, we now have:

Scenario B:

Kid 1 annoys Kid 2. Kid 2 runs and tattles, and when I fail to beat Kid 1 or otherwise respond as viciously as Kid 2 would like, Kid 2 responds with whatever excessive retaliatory scheme s/he would have employed in Scenario A. Kid 2 is baffled and outraged when s/he is now in trouble.

I can understand the confusion in 6 and 10 year olds. I don't get it in adults.

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Adam Masterman
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This is kind of a catch-22, or, at least, a very difficult situation (the title request; I'm not speaking to the specific G2-BDT situation).

I think we can all agree that hobsen is a very nice guy who does his best to keep this a good forum to visit. And I think that anyone who does a demanding, non-paying job deserves a great deal of understanding from the members.

That said, Ornery has definitely gone a long way downhill. Personally, I've gone from pretty passionate involvement to mostly lurking. There is very little left to draw me here, maybe nothing beyond friendships with people who still post here.

The problem, as I see it, is that Ornery has become very skewed to the left. We've lost many of our intelligent, articulate conservatives, an those that remain post very rarely. In their wake, we have a limited number of trollish conservatives, people who are here for a fight rather than a debate. While its not totally him, I'm thinking mainly of G2. He's become the default spokesperson for the right here through simple volume.

Possibly because of the rarity of conservatives, G2 enjoys an amount of lee-way with the rules. Understandably, hobsen seems reluctant to ban one of the few exponents of conservative thought. The result of this is that nearly all of the debate threads are both shallow, in terms of content, and hostile with regards to tone. The latter I find easy to ignore, but its provocative enough that it quickly dominates the discussions. We aren't really debating ideas anymore; we are playing partisan tennis, or else making futile attempts to critique the absurdity of partisan garbage.

I'm not proposing any kind of solution to this situation. Maybe other people experience it differently. From what I see, we've gone from having a wide range of political positions here, each with very articulate adherents, to having a bare handful of positions, some of them argued in the most cartoonish and juvenile manner.

I don't have anything against G2 personally (I apologize for the offense that this frank appraisal is likely to cause), nor do I wish to see him banned. I certainly don't think doing so would bring back quality posters. I just think the moment has passed. This used to be an unbelievably great forum. Now its an average to good forum. It still straddles the aisle, which is good, and still has a number of excellent posters. But a lot of the quality is gone, and hasn't been replaced. C'est la vie.

Adam

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aupton15
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Here are words that you never hear uttered (and still won't, as this is typed): In defense of G2...

I think he contributes little to the dialogue, save for short stretches that seem to come almost completely by accident. Wait, this is supposed to be a defense. Right. What he is doing is exercising his right to free speech by being incendiary and ignoring the substance of an argument in favor of his own talking points. He's like our own little Glen Beck, and he comes with the same options: 1) Appreciate the entertainment value, 2) Take him seriously and let him drive you completely nuts, or 3) Ignore.

Personally I think the global public discourse would be more productive without Beck, and the Ornery discourse would probably be better (certainly less stressful) without G2. But I would rather G2 stay and bend the rules of the forum and common courtesy than leave altogether. We can't eliminate all the unreasonableness and unfairness in the world, and we shouldn't try to eliminate it from a public forum.

Edited to add: And what Adam said.

[ November 05, 2009, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: aupton15 ]

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BobDylanThomas
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quote:
Originally posted by hobsen:
Since BobDylanThomas likes quoting emails, I shall merely quote the last paragraph of one I sent regarding his previous ban,
quote:
Just the same BDT has been here a long time, and he has plenty of good qualities. So he can stay here as long as he likes, but if he continues his present course of action he may spend an unusually large amount of time banned. And in this case I shall do something to make up for any possible injustice by turning him loose at 4 p.m. or so tomorrow, so he can post in the evening if he wants. But with his fervent admiration for funean and scifibum, I wish he conformed a little more to their behavior...

Who did you send that to? Not me. I didn't know I was banned till other members emailed me.

And what specifically was I banned for? I don't really expect any more answer of this than I got when I asked for specifics when I was "told my posting wasn't up to snuff" [LOL] after I dared to give you advice. And what could I have possibly done that G2 hasn't done other than express how I feel about the job you aren't doing and your misuse of your position?

And YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE PROBLEM. Why does the person insulted or attacked have to "suck it up" or risk being banned"?

[i]I have had one suspension in 8 years and that was the Ornery 8 where a bunch of us were picked from the Left and the Right to make an example of. A very rare circumstance in the history of the thread. [i]But now that you are mod I've been forced to leave once, been suspended once by you in a fit of pique, and now you are threatening or speculating that I will spend a lot of time banned? Why do you only apply the rules to people that disagree with you? Why isn't G2 even warned for his violations. Which you can see from the posts here and if you had a closer relationship with all the membbers we've lost, that I was trying to bring back, you'd know that he is the reason for many if not all of them leaving or refusing to come back.

As for printing the Mod's email; he's the Mod! Not a member. He's not supposed to have a personal agenda. He's supposed to be open and transparent. I wouldn't print anyone's personal email to me, and I haven't in 8 years of being a member and a Mod, but I emailed him and he emailed me in his official capacity. Those emails are not off limits.

Rallan, I will not just take it, nor will I sit idely by while the forum is destroyed, so what do you suggest if I don't "tattle"? I've already got the sword of Hobsen hanging over my head while G2 has immunity and carte blanche to make fun of my family and insult me, question my motives, accuse me of lying, do you really expect me just to take it?

I was trying to toe the line. Trying to do the right thing.

KE

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TomDavidson
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quote:
But now that you are mod I've been forced to leave once, been suspended once by you in a fit of pique, and now you are threatening or speculating that I will spend a lot of time banned?
In fairness to hobsen, you've been more hot-headed in the last couple of years. Part of this is that you're now taking any criticism at all as MORTALL INSLUT!!OMG!!1!
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by BobDylanThomas:
This thread is for any of you that care about the forum and those that would like to see it return to being somewhere special as it was in days past. If you don't care it will just bore you so please disregard. [Smile]

I came back from my "suspension", and pledged to turn over a new leaf, and G2 writes this about me and why I defended Levi from the vicious vulgar attacks leveled against him by G2 and others:

quote:
G2- You've certainly made clear that you hate Palin and I think what this comes down to is you will defend literally anyone that has anything negative to say about someone from the Palin family. I don't think you care about the source or the truth, just that it hurts someone from the Palin family. I don't think you even care just a great deal about the target either, anyone with the last name Palin will do although I'm sure Sarah Palin would be preferred.
I was going to make the rule breaches in G2's post bold, but the whole thing is a rule breach.

Blatant "motive speculation" which is against the rules of the forum. Blatantly accusations of lying also against the rules. And then insinuating that I would attack Palin's daughter ala David Letterman.

Let's talk about blatant accusations of lying; those are not uncommon here. Use the search function and turn a few up. Although I don't think I accused you of lying so I'm not sure why you're in a twist about that.


As for hating Palin, I was working off posts like this:
quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
As you know I'm no fan of Palin.

and this:
quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:


Mark, I hate Palin, find some good stuff on her and I'll be happy to watch.

So I think it's pretty clear I'm not speculating on your motives when I say you hate Palin and and you want to see anything you can that will negatively impact her.

Finally, on a thread dedicated to Bristol Palin and the reality of her pregnancy and the rumors around it: you opined:
quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:

I just wish any one of the crazy conspiracy rumors would be proven.

So you were on board with some shots at Bristol - a la David Letterman - in October 2008.

Given all that, I thinks it's pretty clear my opinion of how you view the Palins and attacks on them is well supported and not mere speculation but based in your historical postings.

[ November 05, 2009, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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Clark
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Ho hum. Another thread about Ornery's decline. The general idea seems to be that this place isn't as good as it used to be because someone (insert villain of your choice) is a troll/jerk/rule-breaker/moron. That person's presence is dragging the rest of us down.

How's this for an idea: This forums new-found suckiness starts with you! Quit adding to the problem!

I found Funean comparing Ornery to children very apt. I can hear my dad's voice in my head now saying things like "it takes 2 to start a fight" or "be the bigger person and end the confrontation."

If you want to halt the decline or Ornery, re-read every single post you write from this day forth and ask yourself some questions:
Is there any motive speculation?
Will this insult anyone?
How could this be misinterpreted?
Have I asked any questions to better understand the other person's point of view?
Do we just need to agree to disagree and quit beating this dead horse?

Is it easy to walk away, ignore insults and refuse to stoop to someone elses level? Sure it is, but it's part of being an adult.

(I've re-read Ender in Exile, Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide in the last few weeks, so I forget exactly where this happens (Speaker, I think) but someone (Novinha?) gives Ender a real tongue-lashing to which he barely reacts. Someone else (Ela?) asks him "how can you stand that? don't you get angry?" Ender's response is "Well, when you've killed a few people with your bare hands you learn to control your emotions." Will we all learn to control ourselves before or after we've killed Ornery with our quest to "win" arguments?)

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BobDylanThomas
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I didn't ask him to suspend G2. Just enforce the rules. On me and everybody so the place doesn't continue to erode. I'm pretty sure I've been the same hot-headed the entire time. Unless I become angrier the more things go better in my life. Maybe you're thinking since G2 got here or since you and I had our disagreement? No, you are totally objective, what was I thinking?

Point to a pattern of my taking criticism as an insult? I'm always trying to improve so I'd love to see proof our your claim.

KE

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G2
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Having shown my post that initiated this thread is extremely well supported, I'll address this:
quote:
Originally posted by BobDylanThomas:
Just enforce the rules. On me and everybody so the place doesn't continue to erode.

I'm all for that. By all means, enforce the rules on everybody. No motive speculation:
quote:
Originally posted by yossarian22c:
I'm not sure why I bothered to point this out to you, I would bet you already knew this. The question is why did you pretend not to?

or name calling and personal attacks:
quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
What is the matter with you? Act like an adult. You're being a petulant child. You're still claiming that the person said the world will end in 50 days, even though it's been very clearly shown what he actually meant.

Yet you ignore stuff like that entirely, and continue speaking lies.

quote:
Originally posted by Rallan:
Are you an idiot G2?

That's all just from one thread. There are many more examples of where the rules are not enforced on anyone.
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Gaoics79
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I think you actually have gotten more hot-headed KE. It used to be that someone would have to insult your family to get you to fly off the handle. Now you're losing it over some nominal rule violation. And to be fair, you did say "I hate Palin" so G2's statements are not exactly off the wall here.
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G2
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Damn, forgot my favorite in the rush to post. As BobDylanThomas nee' KnightEnder decires the rules infractions, I recalled this:

quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
And the Douchebag of the Universe Award goes to...
John Edwards with G2 as First runner-up. If for any reason Edwards is unable to perform his duties as Douchebag of the Universe G2 will take over. I have no doubt he will carry out the responsibilities of this office admirably. He has all the qualifications necessary and has proven time and time again that he is a true douchebag. [Roll Eyes]

KE

[LOL] [FootInMouth]

[ November 05, 2009, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: G2 ]

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Colin JM0397
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Funny how talk of improving things boils down to an expose on what's wrong here these days.

Don't like someone; exercise some restraint and just ignore that person. It's actually quite easy.

You two get hold of yourselves and move forward. We can’t go back to “the way things were”, but we can stop living in the past – ie the days of crappy posting. Make an effort to do something better today, and just ignore your trolls if you can’t resist joining in the mudslinging.

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threads
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^^ word
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Colin JM0397:

You two get hold of yourselves and move forward. We can’t go back to “the way things were”, but we can stop living in the past – ie the days of crappy posting. Make an effort to do something better today, and just ignore your trolls if you can’t resist joining in the mudslinging.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight as hobsen says. I was voicing my opinion and it's well supported. It is not mere motive speculation or mudslinging. That it was taken as an insult is unfortunate - yes, maybe I could have worded it a bit better but given the continuous, blatant personal attacks I am routinely subjected to (partially documented above)I don't tend to worry too much about the feelings of others here. I figure they can dish it, they can take it.

I was all cool with BobDylanThomas nee' KnightEnder - even had the Playgirl, homo-erotic joke going. No problems for me despite his history of personal attacks (as documented above). I have moved forward. It's not me you need to address.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
That it was taken as an insult is unfortunate...
Do you really think so?
Because, to be perfectly honest, I think that if you really think it's unfortunate, you could make a small effort to change your posting style to positive effect.

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Hannibal
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I think that the forum has declined , because i didnt post here for like 2 years [Smile]

just passing trough, keep on going guys

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
I figure they can dish it, they can take it.
Are you claiming that you only "dish it" to others who have shown that they "dish it" as well? My experience is that you dish it to most who criticize your arguments regardless of whether you have crossed the line.
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threads
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G2, I think what KE took issue with was the fact that you said his opinion was based off of the fact that he hates Palin. That's motive speculation because you're speculating that his opinions of Palin's political actions and policies are formed by a personal vendetta rather than by an objective interpretation of the facts. I don't think it's an offense worth blowing up over but it's still very rude and also rather irrelevant since arguments should be addressed on their merits and not on their motivations. For example, it would be both rude and irrelevant if someone dismissed your arguments against healthcare on the basis that they thought that you hated poor people.

Also, I doubt many people have sympathy for the "but he did too" defense. Honestly, if you pointed out instances of inappropriate attacks when they happened instead of using them as an excuse whenever you make such attacks then people would begin to side with you in these issues (at least I would). I know you feel like the forum is against you but there are still plenty of objective members here who would (or at least should) be willing to back you up if you feel like the personal attacks are getting excessive. If the personal attacks don't bother you then that's great but that's not an excuse to dish them out.

The posts you quoted were all inappropriate in some way. If you don't like reporting people then I would suggest doing what Pete does and just call out the bull**** on the spot. It's an effective way of marginalizing repeat offenders.

[ November 05, 2009, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: threads ]

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TommySama
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Wow. So, its getting to be past 10 AM, I think its about time for me to put on pants, maybe some underwear and socks, a shirt or two and go to class.

"MORTALL INSLUT"

UR A MAUREL INSLUT!

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Kuato
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Morons. (and please understand, I use that term in an understated, clinical way. It isn't an attack on character or motivations, it is a judgment of the mental work-product I see in evidence at this moment, only).

The thrust of the board's collective analysis to this moment:

KE should suck it up when it is clear that G2 never has any controls upon him at all and will not be ever reasonably addressed. LOVE G2's line, "It's not me you need to address."

Right.

Fun, I usually see at least a lot of *reason* in your posts but for once your contribution doesn't even make sense. Your example included the idea that Child 1, who "annoys" (that is a silly word to describe what is essentially motivation-insertion for which most of us have been strongly slapped and even temp/permanently banned on at least once, it is such a vile practice because it utterly destroys ability to communicate if not prohibited) VIOLATES one of key rules of the forum does so upon Child 2, who "viciously retaliates" (I have to call this another rude interpretation on your part because you are perfectly and fully aware (the record having been provided) that KE *didn't, as you imply* "viciously retaliate", he emailed Hobsen behind the scenes to ask Hobsen to gain control over G2 according to the rules of the forum) and Child 2 isn't happy about the punishment that is meted out to both children. Excuse me, *both* children? Please show me the banning record that G2 has? Please oh please? And wasn't the effect of Hobsen's answer, "no, I'm just going to let G2 do whatever, and you'll just have to put up with it" ??

That was an uncharacteristically bad analysis, Funean. I've never seen less-worthy logic from you.

As a former happy member of this place, I can only say that steering clear of the character and motive assassination squad has proved too much for me in recent months. But since Pete somehow failed to ask me along with everyone else he considered valuable to come back to the forum (can't imagine that he would impose any kind of double standard, though, I'm sure that's not possible.....) I'm not too worried about making this place any better.

[ November 05, 2009, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Kuato ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
That it was taken as an insult is unfortunate...
Do you really think so?
Because, to be perfectly honest, I think that if you really think it's unfortunate, you could make a small effort to change your posting style to positive effect.

You mean post things like: *laughs* ? [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by threads:
G2, I think what KE took issue with was the fact that you said his opinion was based off of the fact that he hates Palin. That's motive speculation because you're speculating that his opinions of Palin's political actions and policies are formed by a personal vendetta rather than by an objective interpretation of the facts.

Well, I quoted enough to back up any perceived speculation. He said he hates her, not here policies or political actions. I assume saying he hates Palin meant he hates Palin.


quote:
Originally posted by threads:
Honestly, if you pointed out instances of inappropriate attacks when they happened instead of using them as an excuse whenever you make such attacks then people would begin to side with you in these issues (at least I would).

I tried that, no success. I pulled three quotes from one single thread but there are many threads where such attacks occur and it has become so routine I think many don't even notice it. I even reached out to hobsen and told him I would assist him to bring things around by reporting every instance of it I came across since I knew only one guy can't be everywhere. I tried it for a couple of weeks whether it was attacks on me or others and made a genuine effort to "stay clean", no response. None. I thought he'd at least post something but anything I have to say falls into a black hole with hobsen - although he does give me a very mild rebuke now and then (not often, but I've seen them).

The fact is, these types of attacks are common here. They are every day and very nearly every thread. I got all those from one thread (except for the one from KE). Calling them on the spot does nothing, the moderator does nothing. This is a very liberal forum with a very unengaged moderator. Whaddya gonna do?

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Kuato
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So, clearly G2 is the victim of bad moderation, too.

Poor guy.

No one has disputed, including THE MODERATOR, that G2 is usually over the line, but ***he*** is the victim here, apparently. And everyone can see, and THE MODERATOR kindly provided his Moderation Plan for G2:

1. fail to address G2
2. ban those who get into fights with G2

okie dokie


anyway, morning folks, good to see so many of you, chow.

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threads
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Kuato, I interpreted Funean's post as criticizing KE's choice to make this topic. I think it would have been nice if there had been a little more back-and-forth between KE and hobsen before KE decided to make this public.

quote:
But since Pete somehow failed to ask me along with everyone else he considered valuable to come back to the forum (can't imagine that he would impose any kind of double standard, though, I'm sure that's not possible.....) I'm not too worried about making this place any better.
I think this is a wildly unfortunate and inaccurate interpretation of your lack of mention in that thread. I would be happy to see you post more.

[ November 07, 2009, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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vulture
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuato:

Fun, I usually see at least a lot of *reason* in your posts but for once your contribution doesn't even make sense. Your example included the idea that Child 1, who "annoys" (that is a silly word to describe what is essentially motivation-insertion for which most of us have been strongly slapped and even temp/permanently banned on at least once, it is such a vile practice because it utterly destroys ability to communicate if not prohibited) VIOLATES one of key rules of the forum does so upon Child 2, who "viciously retaliates" (I have to call this another rude interpretation on your part because you are perfectly and fully aware (the record having been provided) that KE *didn't, as you imply* "viciously retaliate", he emailed Hobsen behind the scenes to ask Hobsen to gain control over G2 according to the rules of the forum) and Child 2 isn't happy about the punishment that is meted out to both children. Excuse me, *both* children? Please show me the banning record that G2 has? Please oh please? And wasn't the effect of Hobsen's answer, "no, I'm just going to let G2 do whatever, and you'll just have to put up with it" ??

That was an uncharacteristically bad analysis, Funean. I've never seen less-worthy logic from you.

I don't think Fun was creating any kind of analogy. She was telling us what her kids have been up to recently, and then saying that she's seeing the same level of maturity here. I think you reading waaay to much into this Kuato... [Smile]
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TomDavidson
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quote:
You mean post things like: *laughs* ?
You could try it. See how it goes for you. Or, heck, just avoid posting things that you think are likely to be taken as unfortunate insults.
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Kuato
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threads,

1. there has been plenty of back and forth between KE and the mod about this topic.

2. actually, that's not an interpretation of my lack of mention on that thread. No one had to mention me, for Pete to remember me. Pete undertook to individually contact by email or phone those he felt might add to the forum, or at least those he liked as opposed to those he had to maintain what he considered "incomprehensible ideas" (such as equal access to civil contracts) with.

But it's cool.

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Kuato
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vulture,

maybe I am. But she was relating one situation to this situation and we must suppose that she felt there was some connection.

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Kuato
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Maybe the real message that Hobsen is sending, is that Hobsen's idea is to control G2 after G2 has totally and completely offended people (as in, G2 has insulted and motive-attributed sufficieintly to get someone else to take a swing at him and there is a bloodbath on the board) just not for normal things that others get plonked on the head for, like motive-attribution.

After all, it isn't G2 that needs to be addressed at that point, it would be all the brawlers.

Way to be pro-active, Hobsen. Two standards are clearly better than one.

[ November 05, 2009, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Kuato ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuato:
So, clearly G2 is the victim of bad moderation, too.

Poor guy.

No one has disputed, including THE MODERATOR, that G2 is usually over the line, but ***he*** is the victim here, apparently.

Look at what promoted this entire thread. Did I call him a liar as he claimed? No, I did not.

As for the rest, I provided plenty to back up where I was coming from. Actually, it was little more than paraphrasing him from other posts.

Now look at what you added to the mix here. It's nothing but personal attacks, snark and venom. Do think that's my fault that you show up out of nowhere and throw that into this thread?

I'm sorry Pete did not email you, that's not my fault - I was never involved in any of that in any way.

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DonaldD
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Hmmm... the internet seems to have swallowed my last post.

I am INSLUTTED (is 'INSLUT' internet idiom, or just an unfortunate typo?)

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Kuato
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G2

The record shows that

1. you engaged in motive-attribution

2. you were reported to the MOD

3. the mod decided to let you run with it, and only to use the MOD's authority when you have prodded enough in order to get others to swing at you (because the MOD will not control your behavior)

4. then you appear to be stating that there couldn't be anything on your side to be addressed, and that you are the victim here


I wish I could call my response "snark". It can't be "personal attacks" when what I'm doing is highlighting the record. I'm trying to fairly lightly address what anyone with eyes would deduce.

But I will agree that you are being underserved, G2. Rather than being asked to comply with the forum's rules (the MOD has admitted that you are not) then you are allowed to bloom unpruned and this causes all sorts of problems around you. Those you provoke, do finally attack you. The MOD owes you better. It is the MOD's job to help you prune your behavior and the MOD has admitted he/she isn't doing so.

[ November 05, 2009, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Kuato ]

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuato:
G2

The record shows that

1. you engaged in motive-attribution

2. you were reported to the MOD

3. the mod decided to let you run with it, and only to use the MOD's authority when you have prodded enough in order to get others to swing at you (because the MOD will not control your behavior)

4. then you appear to be stating that there couldn't be anything on your side to be addressed, and that you are the victim here


I wish I could call my response "snark". It can't be "personal attacks" when what I'm doing is highlighting the record. I'm trying to fairly lightly address what anyone with eyes would deduce.

But I will agree that you are being underserved, G2. Rather than being asked to comply with the forum's rules (the MOD has admitted that you are not) then you are allowed to bloom unpruned and this causes all sorts of problems around you. Those you provoke into attacking, do finally attack you. The MOD owes you better. It is the MOD's job to help you prune your behavior and the MOD has admitted he/she isn't doing so.

1. I have backed up my statements and shown that I was essentially paraphrasing.

2. Apparently, I was reported to the MOD

3. That's motive speculation on your part. Shame on you!

4. I'm not a victim, never claimed to be. I'm just playing the game. Hate the game not the player!

[ November 07, 2009, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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