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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Red VW, A michael Jordan SLAM!

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Author Topic: Red VW, A michael Jordan SLAM!
KenBean
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Hi Red VW person (on who's lap? )

You loaded our "lunch-kit" with that article.

I have not read many of the replies yet, which is the reason for this sub-topic post, but so far they are a little predictable.

Before anything else, Thank you for a well written, tightly reasoned, and splendidly supported article.

I was especially delighted with your apt historical allusions, and the "roundness" of your reasoning. Perhaps the right term is "historical precedents"?

Glimpsing the predictable replies, I was saddened and disappointed by the single issue quibbles. Many of your specific points might be arguable, but your hard work in quietly laying down the parameters of the subject is noted here, and deeply appreciated.

Some of our passivists on this forum, have actually admitted on other threads that they would eskchewwwwww violence even if some evil person burst into their very homes, and held their children by the feet...

Please ignore them. They can survive and even thrive...........here.

They "tip-toe through the violets" while humankind as a whole is subjected to the most horrible things today, and with no hope............NO! Worse! No IDEA that things can be any different for them or their posterity.

The most frightening thing to me is the thought that my life and the lives, (if any), of my posterity are rendered meaningless and irrelevant by the monsters.

Monsters in the form of persons, or monsters in the form of ideologies.
*
No, our passivists here on this forum blithely ignore their fellow man in bondage...as long as they are not within our borders. If they are HERE...KINGS-X. (A childrens' game of "tag" where there is a "safe" spot from being tagged called KINGS-X for some reason).

George Will wrote a book called "SUDDENLY...The American Idea".

Well, the only reason that "Idea" has survived and prospered is that "Good men did SOMETHING".

In these days, I don't know precisely what that "something" should be. Additionally, I'm not in charge of precisely what that something WILL be. What I am convinced of is that the something must be: SUCCESSFUL, DECISIVE, and GOOD.

Our wars should never be about knocking down monsters, but instead about lifting our fellow men UP and out of bondage, regardless of the monsters.
Why?
Because we have before, and we still can!

That ability requires responsibility. It requires us to act:
JUSTLY
WITH MERCY
AND HUMILITY BEFORE GOD...when we screw part of it up.

RedVW
Your article was a better "slam" than Michael Jordan ever made...on his best day.

Highest regards
Ken Bean




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RedVW on a Laptop
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thanks ken. I may not be even close to right, but atleast we are all talking about relavent things again.
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Redskullvw
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Oh and Ken .. you just agreed with a fascist.
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Tom Grey - Tigger
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Red,
I'd also like to say you wrote well.
And I am torn between supporting the US acting in self-defense (eg Afghanistan, OK); and the world's policeman/ semi-defense in Iraq (slightly for it) and the world's policeman in general (NO).

Also, I thought your position as a fascist was explained in the Consistency thread with Everard.

How do you feel your "support for fascism" is different than a Plato inspired support for Philosopher King (who supports private property)? Your process of choosing the right decision maker seems thin, or maybe I didn't read it closely enough.


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KenBean
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Hi Guys

Redskull, The best I recall..."facist" came from the word to describe a bundle of twigs or sticks bound together to symbolize the strength inherent in joining together weak things into very strong things. By combining their little strengths into serious strength.
A lot of inherent strength, as described by our, (or one of our), national motto:"E Pluribus Unum."

In that very limited sense, I can go with some fascism.

Conversely, I can go with a little socialism too. I like the idea of a safety net for people who are hurt or disabled.

Tigger,
"The world's Policeman" is another one of those "push-button words". There are a host of analogies that have sheltered under that phrase. Some good ones...and a whole bunch of bad ones.
Like it or not, the ole' US of A IS the world's policeman in these days....sorta'

I would substitute some other words or phrases.

Perhaps we are, (or should be):
1. The world's role-model
2. The world's referee
3. A decently civilized conscience
4. The biggest kid on the block...with a good heart.(though admittedly sometimes very dumb)
5. (The old Arthurian motto) might FOR right
6. Champions of the dis-possessed
7. SOMETHING POSITIVE POINTING THE RIGHT
(general) DIRECTION.

Other prhases are welcomed, guys.

Best regards
Ken Bean


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Locus
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1. The world's role-model

Umm ..we have some bugs to work out before I would feel comfortable with adopting the role-model position. For instance too many of our laws are still based on a handful of religious moral values which quite frankly don't apply to most of the world or come directly into conflict. All that said ..you don't usally strive to become a role model ..you wake up one morning to discover you ARE one. I think we're already there.

2. The world's referee

We'd have to become impartial ..which we're not.

3. A decently civilized conscience

Too sticky value wise again ..consciences work off values..our convictions may disagree with something ..but that doesn't mean it is wrong ..merely that it is wrong by our definition. Also ..we're big schizo-hypocrites.

4. The biggest kid on the block...with a good heart.(though admittedly sometimes very dumb)

Ok ...I'll buy this...

5. (The old Arthurian motto) might FOR right

Again ..what's right? I prefer action out of honest self interest. Makes our motives clearer to the rest of the world also.

6. Champions of the dis-possessed

Can't do that and remain a capitalistic society.

7. SOMETHING POSITIVE POINTING THE RIGHT
(general) DIRECTION.

Would that be up or down? Can we get a consensus?


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maniacal_engineer
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locus -
why the reluctance to judge between values? I have my values, I think that they are better than anyone else's. If you think differently I will discuss it with you, and I may even change my mind.

BUT AT LEAST HAVE A POSITION

the only judgement you make is that no one can make any judgements. Didn't you read my 'most misquoted biblical passages' rant on another recent thread? "Judge not, lest ye be not judged" is not an injunction against any judgement, but is an instruction to judge FAIRLY " for by whatsoever measure ye mete it shall be meted again unto you"

every day I bet my life that my values are the best, because I spend my life, one day at a time, living (or trying to live) those values.


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KenBean
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Hi Locus

The only problem I have with your response is that phrase (paraphrased).

...based upon a handful of religious values.

Do Justly?
embrace mercy?

Leave the other one out and they are still a pretty good place to start.
Enlightened self Interest? Yeah I like that.

Old quote (Letterrip help me out here)

"If the rascals ever learned how profitable virtue truly is...they would be virtuous because of their very rascality."

Best regards
Ken Bean


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Locus
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I was avoiding stating specifics in my post because they really aren't important to my point and I don't want to start more long winded morality discussions. Morality conflicts seem to only reach resolution with bombs.(then sometimes not)

If you want examples though ..here it goes...

We tend to hard code religious values from one faith into the system when one religion clearly violates another.

My values? I believe as far as the state is concerned it has no jurisdiction over an individual's decisions as long as the individual is making them over themselves. For instance if someone wants to kill themself. Fine as long as they don't take anyone else with them.

You can apply that to almost anything. I detest smokers but I believe they should have the right to do so without all the taxes and nonsense. I also believe that if they should do it in my presence (or around my family) I should be able to beat them within an inch of their life(as self defense).

If it applies to one person it should apply to ANY person. For instance ..a man and a woman can declare theselves married and adopt a kid together..a man and a man should be able to do the same. We have rediculous systems where a SINGLE person has a better chance of adopting a child than a gay couple. (I've seen all sorts of stats about homosexuals being this or that ..but you know homosexuals tend to earn more than heterosexuals ..and as such would be better providers?)

Let's lay sexual relations aside. Should a brother and a sister be able to co-habitate and claim marriage/social security and tax benefits as a couple? Should they be eligible to adopt children as a couple if they so choose? I say yes.

Marriage is a sacred cow that is in serious need of a vet. How is it someone with kids from three different failed marriages is better than someone with kids from three SUCCESSFUL marriages?

How is it that it's ok to see someone's throat cut,burn to death,beheaded...all other kinds of gruesome imagery on TV ..but OHH fire and brimstone if we should see bare breasts...? Has ANYONE ever in recorded history suffered serious irreversible impairment after being exposed to the rays from uncovered breasts?
<hint>marriage and kids don't count


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Tom Grey - Tigger
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Ken, I don't like it (we be cops), but I'm afraid the world needs it. And we almost need a world that has one.
The Kagan article on Power and Weakness http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html
does a good job discussing issues (read a couple months ago, but important)

I like World's Role Model, but the main problem is that there can only be one # 1.

I also liked "Champion for Democracy", but we're not, nor were we in Vietnam in 1956.
nor of the "dispossed", not at all.

How about "Reluctant, occassional policeman?"
I like the first two words, plus (maybe):
world's champion
liberator
interventionist
anti-terrorists (?)

It's not clear what universals, if any, we are really trying to promote though. Because we're not the world's cop, nor do we want to be; but we occassionally act like we are.

But I do, quite like "biggest kid on the block -- with a good heart" (had to edit add this)

[This message has been edited by Tigger (edited October 18, 2002).]


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Redskullvw
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Tigger the "fascist' comment I made was just an acknowledgement of Ken's compliment and a humorous jab. A lot of times in the past people would post that they agreed with me and then hit the roof when they realized i was a fascist and a royalist. There wasnt anything particularly fascist in the original thread.

As to supporting a philosopher king.. well that sounds more like dictatorship to me. I do not support it at all. I firmly believe that a viable fascist government could opperate completely under the existing federal system. Eventually I will have completely thought this through and finished producing the thesis. I have been working on it for over 3 years now and its not close to being done.

The problems I have is rectifying political ambition with social indifference. The inhernet danger of international interactions on a governmental level as a precursor to a fascist collapse. And finally how to install an educational system which does not devolve into a party indoctrination which encourages a group think mentality.

If you can solve those problems then maybe I will be getting somewhere.


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