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Author Topic: 9-11 Conspiracy Theory
KE
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Have y’all heard the 9-11 conspiracy theory that insists that the calls from Flight 93, to their families, right before they tried to take the plane back and caused it to crash, were “faked by the government”! (That is a new one on me.)

That these people really talked to someone but the man they thought was their husband or father was really someone from the government faking their loved ones voice!

Does that piss anybody else off?

Most of that bs is just funny or nutty or sad, but this pisses me off. There are very few actual heroes and to besmirch their names and upset their families for any reason is unacceptable. Damn sure is un-American. You better have concrete evidence before you make that kind of claim. Disgusting losers with too much time on their hands.

Now I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Air Force shot down Flight 93 after the other two hit the Towers but that would have nothing to do with who the families on the ground talked to that day.

Hey, I hate Bush as much as anyone but no ****ing way did he do this.

Did these people not see his face when they told him what was happening? He froze like a dear in the headlights. Who would have thought this lack of composure under pressure would be proof positive that he had absolutely no idea that this was going to happen.

Surely we have nobody here that buy any of this bs?

[ November 21, 2009, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: KE ]

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KE
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Okay, now I'm at the end of the show and apparently they are leaving out the parts about the cell phone calls in the second "Loose Change". And they are also backing off a lot of the other crap that is too easy to disprove.

KE

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KE
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I wonder if these morons even realize how much damage they are doing to our country?

They take the good healthy skepticism that we need and use it to promote their own political and personal agendas and make it so anyone that questions "the official story" sounds like a nut. They are like Mulder on The X-Files or abductee idiots. Aliens could land in a respectable persons back yard and ask for a glass of tea and chances are the person wouldn't report it for fear of sounding like one of these nuts.

They are totally blind to the fact that "they are the ones who are buying the lie". They take on faith what should require concrete evidence. I'm sure Oliver Stone is thrilled that Americans like them exist but after watching this I'm back to thinking we need some kind of basic competency test before anybody is allowed to vote.

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kenmeer livermaile
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The problem with conspiracy theory is that its very nature breeds exoticism and extremism. After all, it's all so dang *cryptic*, and we tend to get up to silly mischief if there's that much hiding space to wonder about and take cover in.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by KE:
Have y’all heard the 9-11 conspiracy theory that insists that the calls from Flight 93, to their families, right before they tried to take the plane back and caused it to crash, were “faked by the government”! (That is a new one on me.)

That these people really talked to someone but the man they thought was their husband or father was really someone from the government faking their loved ones voice!

Does that piss anybody else off?

Well yes. I mean this is obviously so divorced from reality that I can't understand how even conspiracy theorists could believe it.

After all, everyone knows the so-called "planes" were cruise missiles launched from an Israeli nuclear submarine, so there were no passengers making calls that had to be diverted [Big Grin]

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TommySama
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Pretty simple explanation: they just let it happen. Maybe slipped a little useful information to Al Quida, maybe squashed a little bit of evidence that would have stopped the attack.
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stayne
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I have never understood the conspiracy theorists on 911, or on Pearl Harbor, etc. They all sound like the b-b-b-b-black helicopters people to me.

I don't get how you can think anyone willing to set it up or even 'let it happen' would not choose an even better option: ALMOST let it happen, and ride in like the cavalry at the last minute and save the day. You get everything you would from the event, and you look like you totally had matters under control.

Making it happen or letting it happen, you either look like a villain or an idiot. At the very least, you don't let the perpetrators make you look like a fool for years. If you're really a nefarious scumbag, you shoot SOMEBODY and claim he was the bad guy, don't you?

(shrug) I just don't see why some people find it so hard to believe the government is a lumbering, stupid beast for the most part, whatever party is in charge. It's as if people need to believe that everything is totally in control, and actually feel more comfortable thinking it was deliberate than confronting the fact that a bunch of yahoos actually got over on a 'real' government.

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TommySama
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"Making it happen or letting it happen, you either look like a villain or an idiot."

Yes, I do remember the sharp drop in Bush's approval rating immediately following 9/11. If they did let it happen, it totally backfired on them [Roll Eyes]

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cherrypoptart
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People believe these things becauase occasionally they are actually true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

Hmmmm... reading that I see I was mistaken in thinking it's been proven that the Nazis were behind it. I guess it's still in the unknown file...

This was pretty funny to me for some reason, perhaps thinking about the upcoming KSM trial and how it may be treated:

"The Leipzig Trial was widely publicized and was broadcast on the radio. It was expected that the court would find the Communists guilty on all counts and approve the repression and terror exercised by the Nazis against all opposition forces in the country. At the end of the trial, however, only Van der Lubbe was convicted, while his fellow defendants were found not guilty. In 1934, Van der Lubbe was beheaded in a German prison yard. In 1967, a court in West Berlin overturned the 1933 verdict, and posthumously changed Van der Lubbe's sentence to 8 years in prison. In 1980, another court overturned the verdict, but was overruled. In 1981, a West German court posthumously overturned Van der Lubbe's 1933 conviction and found him not guilty by reason of insanity. This ruling was subsequently overturned, but, in January 2008, he was finally pardoned under a 1998 law for the crime on the grounds that the laws under which Van der Lubbe was convicted were unconstitutional."

------------------------------------------

I read this a long time ago about the Pearl Harbor deal. It can be found by just typing into google "motherofallconspiracies".

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html?q=pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

I saw a History Channel documentary on it and some of the stuff on that page was debunked if I remember it correctly. But I have to admit I think they connected a lot of the dots pretty well and FDR was trying to provoke the Japanese into attacking.

----------------------------------------

I usually do buy into some of the conspiracy ideas, including with JFK, but I'm out of cash when it comes to 9-11. Maybe it's because it's my guy in charge, or maybe it's because I find it more likely that we were hamstrung by the walls between CIA and FBI and civil liberties concerns (see Able-Danger) that while laudable for their idealism had the unfortunate effect of protecting terrorists more than Americans.

Interesting, and still cloudy with a 50% chance of rain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Danger

Why do people like this stuff? If nothing else, there's nothing quite like a good mystery to relieve the tedium of boring times. Maybe it's part of the "matrix" we construct to keep things lively.

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stayne
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What I find ironic about the notion of such a conspiracy is that it would only be effective because of the likelihood of it being true. I can certainly believe that on occasion, someone has tried to dummy up an 'incident'. But there seem some who see more dummying up than actual incidents. That seems bizarre to me.
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KE
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Stacy brought up a point I hadn't thought of; If the government arraigned 911 as a false-flag incident why crash the jets into the buildings and then blow them up? Either or would have been sufficient to justify a war with whomever the government could convince the American people did it.

Cherry,

People want to think that huge events should have equally huge complicated explanations. It's just hard to believe that some schlub killed the most powerful man in the world all by his lonesome. True, but hard to believe.

KE

[ November 22, 2009, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: KE ]

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Colin JM0397
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On the Dec 7 thing - my Grandfather served in the Pacific, so knows a lot of guys who did as well. His good friend, who I know (but never heard the story) was a radioman in the Philippines, and a Japanese POW survivor – don’t recall if he was in the death march. Anyway, he said they intercepted radio traffic and knew when the Japanese fleet passed the Philippines heading east. They were all brought into the CO's office and made to sign security statements that they would never divulge what they knew.

Of course we provoked the attack and then let it come – all signs point to…

On the 9/11 thing, I've heard strange things re some of those conversations - such as the Beemer guy, IIRC, called his mom and said "Mom this is Todd Beamer". Strange, but doesn't prove a thing.

Of course, I'm one of those people who only believes it when I see it myself, and I've never been able to make a cell phone call in flight, and I've tried several times. I’ve never heard anything explain how the laws of physics managed to be bent that day and calls were made all over the country – both flight 93 and Barbara Olsen calling her husband. If we had a real investigation, they could easily pull the phone records. Of course, those could be faked by now! [Exploding]

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KE
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Most of the calls were made on the phones on the seat backs. But a couple of them went through because the airplane was under 50,000 ft and was within the capability of the technology at the time.

I heard that "Todd Beamer" thing, too. But I never heard the recording or his mother make that claim. No telling how people will react under life and death circumstances, but it sounds good.

When they faked those phone records did they also hire actors to portray the sobbing family members who received the phone calls, too?

Pearl we provoked, but let it happen I doubt. Maybe we thought they would hit the Philippines or some other island closer to Japan but not Pearl. We may not have been surprised that we were hit, just 'where' we were hit.

KE

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kenmeer livermaile
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Oh, FDR definitely thought they would hit Pearl Harbor first. It was the single most effective military strategical tactic of that war scenario. And FDR knew this very well.

What Roosevelt Understood
quote:
Who will forget Roosevelt's speech condemning the Japanes for their surprise attack on Pearl Harbor? But was it a day of infamy or a very predictable event that US intelligence failed to get right? After all In his book the naval authority Hector Bywater outlined in novel format a scenario for a Pacific war between Japan and the US in 1931. Japan made a surprise attack on the US Pacific Fleet based in the Philippines ( Pearl was not then the naval base). After initial setbacks the US employed a strategy of island hopping to cut back the Japanese. Finally they made a move on the Japanese so provocative that the Japanese fleet had no option but to come out and fight to save their honor. They were annihilated.
He was called a war mongerer. Roosevelt attacked him and disagreed that such a war would happen. Meanwhile a fellow called Yamamoto bought and read the novel as did most of the Japanese naval academy.
December 7th 1941 Hector Bywater's novel became reality.

Roosevelt and Bywater debated this topic in length and depth in contesting newspaper articles in the 20s when Roosie was Sec of Navy.
Here is a much more detailed look into that situation.

Roosie knew that Pearl Harbor was the most likely target.

[ November 23, 2009, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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Colin JM0397
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On Pearl Harbor, for me the most telling thing is the fact that all carriers were out of port that day, but nearby, yet didn't have their full flotilla of support ships with them. IE the carriers were out, but the carrier battle groups were not out - that's quite strange, or, if you like, quite "lucky".

Not sure, but I heard most of those planes did not have the air phones installed… Very vague memory on this, but that might have been the case w/ Olsen.

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kenmeer livermaile
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BTW, KE: IF there were a proactive conspiracy of 911, and those calls were faked, they would indeed have used 'actors'. It goes with the idea of a grand Conspiracy. So it neither supports nor refutes the idea of faked calls.
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whitefire
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quote:
On Pearl Harbor, for me the most telling thing is the fact that all carriers were out of port that day, but nearby, yet didn't have their full flotilla of support ships with them. IE the carriers were out, but the carrier battle groups were not out - that's quite strange, or, if you like, quite "lucky".
Not sure about this one. There was a lot of doubt that the carriers were capable of carrying the fight with out the BSes.
I go with lucky (or maybe they were smarter than they want to take credit for now?)

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kenmeer livermaile
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Both sides, USA and japan, played December 7th brilliantly. Where Japan lost and USA won is that WWII took on such mythical resonance that FDR and his people decided that only total surrender and conquest was acceptable.

So the Japs did not get to use their initial victories as a means to negotiate a surrender in which they lost the war but won the fight. They wound up on their friggin' knees just like the Germans.

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JWatts
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Admiral Yamamoto knew that the attack on Pearl Harbor was a terrible mistake. It was not a brilliant move, but a depressingly ignorant (political) one.

quote:
In The Reluctant Admiral, Hiroyuki Agawa, without a citation, does give a quotation from a reply by Admiral Yamamoto to Ogata Taketora on January 9, 1942, which is strikingly similar to the famous version: "A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack.

We all know what happened now, he just had the misfortune of knowing it ahead of time.

quote:

Yamamoto believed that Japan could not win a protracted war with the United States, and moreover seems to have believed that the Pearl Harbor attack had become a blunder — even though he was the person who came up with the idea of a surprise attack. The Reluctant Admiral relates that "Yamamoto alone" (while all his staff members were celebrating) spent the day after Pearl Harbor "sunk in apparent depression." He is also known to have been upset by the bungling of the Foreign Ministry which led to the attack happening while the countries were technically at peace, thus making the incident an unprovoked sneak attack that would certainly enrage the enemy.

There was no parity in power between the US and Japan. Indeed the US treated the Pacific as a secondary front, sometimes a tertiary front and still crushed the Japanese.

As a strategic action it ranks at the top of the list of bad decisions.

And as to FDR intentionally leaving the Battleships to die, I think the idea is silly. If the battleships weren't there the Japanese still would have had to carry through with at least the first wave of attack. There still would have been massive damage to the port and it still would have been a horrible, sneak attack with large loss of American lives. The PR value would have been nearly as good and the intact battle fleet invaluable.

No, even though FDR was a Democrat he wasn't that ignorant of military necessities.

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KE
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
BTW, KE: IF there were a proactive conspiracy of 911, and those calls were faked, they would indeed have used 'actors'. It goes with the idea of a grand Conspiracy. So it neither supports nor refutes the idea of faked calls.

[LOL]
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kenmeer livermaile
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I understand your view, JWatts. I'll say it wasn't *just* a "determined counterattack" that so damned the Japs, but a zealously fanatically ferociously determined counterattack that so did them in.

Let me clarify: I call it brilliant in that it reliably provided about 2 years' Japanese dominance in SE Pacific. The rationale was to negotiate peace and retain significant influence/ownership of valuable SE resources, especially petroleum.

But the Japs were so horribly vile in their war-making, so blindly supremacist, and failed to comprehend, or so it seems to me, how their actions, especially when viewed as an alliance with those other bastards, the Nazis, would create a perception of a Totally Unrighteous and Dangerous Enemy that we would work in team with Stalin and his Soviet butchers.

So, by brilliant, I meant brilliant in the concept in which it was conceived. That concept, however, was false, if not by the time of the Rape of Nanking then certainly by the time of the Bataan Death March.

The Japs, apparently, were thinking in 19th century terms as demonstrated by the likes of Napoleon. Their huge blunder was to think this was just another war-as-business between conflicting empire builders.

Instead, it became arguably the single most meaningful war in history, with the Allies rightfully seeing themselves as infallibly morally superior compared to the feudal/fascist Japs and Nazi Germans, and viewing Germans/Japs as cockroaches to be exterminated.

As for the battleship connection: I don't think FDR knew in detail when the Japs would strike. He just knew they would, and soon. TO not betray that awareness, he couldn't obviously remove all the goodies from Pearl.

But he had a pretty good idea of when and wanted his aircraft carriers to survive. He got lucky.

My final comment: kings of contesting empires often do some freaky and kinda snaky stuff.

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KE
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Yes, our president and all our navy Admirals "knew" Pearl was the obvious choice, a naval base thousands of miles from Japan, deep in our water and past our islands in the Pacific, but they all decided to do nothing about it and "act" surprised. Yeah.

KE

[ November 23, 2009, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: KE ]

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KE
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There was a huge battle going on in the Navy about the supremacy of the battleships and the carriers. I guess the carriers won. It's a good thing the Admiral commanding Pearl went along with 'letting' Pearl get hit. And then was good enough to fall on his sword.

I just don't buy it.

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whitefire
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"If the battleships weren't there the Japanese still would have had to carry through with at least the first wave of attack. There still would have been massive damage to the port and it still would have been a horrible, sneak attack with large loss of American lives. The PR value would have been nearly as good and the intact battle fleet invaluable."
This is why I doubt they knew enough to try to save the carriers. They wouldn't have had to. Also, I've never heard that the carrier commanders had been given any warning (were they even flying CAP? I'd be interested to know that story)
Rumors of the Carriers being on some kind of high alert just prior would be my smoking gun that they were saved on purpose.

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kenmeer livermaile
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The opposite was happening, whitefire: evidence of increased risk to Pearl were suppressed. The carriers were just out doing stuff, as i recall.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
There was a huge battle going on in the Navy about the supremacy of the battleships and the carriers. I guess the carriers won. It's a good thing the Admiral commanding Pearl went along with 'letting' Pearl get hit. And then was good enough to fall on his sword.

I just don't buy it.

It would take something really convincing, a smoking gun, to convince me that the Americans deliberately allowed such a devastating and costly loss of life and equipment.

It's one thing to say that Pearl Harbour was the obvious target, but it's another thing to presume that the Americans saw this coming.

There was alot of racism back then. The Americans saw the Japanese as being totally inferior, technologically and in terms of their skill as warriors. The Americans were probably just plain overconfident and didn't think the Japanese had the guts or the know-how to pull off an attack of that scale. I don't think this factor should be underestimated.

While Admiral Yamamoto may have recognized the terrible likelihood of long-term defeat following the attack, it's a mistake to assume that the American victory in the Pacific was assured. The Americans got their clocks cleaned by the Japanese until the turning point, which was the Battle of Midway. Keep in mind that the Americans had fortuitously cracked the Japanese codes and thereby knew when and where they were coming, and yet the battle was still a close contest that could have gone either way. They won it by a razor's edge. At stake was not just Midway itself, but the fate of the carrier fleets of either side. Those carriers were the keys to victory in the Pacific. If the Japanese had been victorious at Midway and destroyed the American carriers (which was entirely possible) you'd be hard pressed to argue that the Americans would have been victorious in the Pacific.

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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Let me clarify: I call it brilliant in that it reliably provided about 2 years' Japanese dominance in SE Pacific. The rationale was to negotiate peace and retain significant influence/ownership of valuable SE resources, especially petroleum.

Within those parameters, I won't dispute that it was a brilliant tactical success.

Indeed, when gaming the War in the Pacific, I prefer to do two Pearl Harbor attacks, the Japanese certainly had the firepower for it and establishing dinky bases all over the Pacific islands is pointless.

In point of fact, the IJN missed the most important target at Pearl Harbor, (the massive fuel depot). They had slated a third wave attack to take out the fuel depot after the first two waves had taken out the fleet and the land based air field. However, when Yamamato realized the carriers weren't at Pearl, he got cold feet and ran. The destruction of the fuel depots would have completely crippled the US fleets action radius and IJN submarines could have been easily able to concentrate on tankers bringing in re-supply. This wouldn't have stopped the US Navy, nothing at that point could, but it would have delayed the inevitable for many additional months.


quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
As for the battleship connection: I don't think FDR knew in detail when the Japs would strike. He just knew they would, and soon. TO not betray that awareness, he couldn't obviously remove all the goodies from Pearl.

Oh, I think it is quite possible that FDR and the fleet command didn't want all of the Pacific fleet together, but they clearly didn't think the Japanese would do a "Christmas attack" or the base wouldn't have essentially been "closed for the holidays".


quote:
Originally posted by whitefire:
Also, I've never heard that the carrier commanders had been given any warning (were they even flying CAP? I'd be interested to know that story)

Rumors of the Carriers being on some kind of high alert just prior would be my smoking gun that they were saved on purpose.

Indeed it would have but, in truth the Carriers weren't even grouped together, instead they were wildly scattered on various missions.


quote:
From the US Navy History --
On 7 December 1941, the three Pacific Fleet aircraft carriers were USS Enterprise (CV-6), USS Lexington (CV-2), and USS Saratoga (CV-3).

Enterprise: On 28 November 1941, Admiral Husband E. Kimmel sent TF-8, consisting of Enterprise, the heavy cruisers Northampton (CA-26), Chester (CA-27), and Salt Lake City (CA-24) and nine destroyers under Vice Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., to ferry 12 Grumman F4F-3 Wildcats of Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 211 to Wake Island. Upon completion of the mission on 4 December, TF-8 set course to return to Pearl Harbor. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found TF-8 about 215 miles west of Oahu.

Lexington: On 5 December 1941, TF-12, formed around Lexington, under the command of Rear Admiral John H. Newton, sailed from Pearl to ferry 18 Vought SB2U-3 Vindicators of Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 231 to Midway Island. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found Lexington, heavy cruisers Chicago (CA-29), Portland (CA-33), and Astoria (CA-34), and five destroyers about 500 miles southeast of Midway. The outbreak of hostilities resulted in cancellation of the mission and VMSB-231 was retained on board [they would ultimately fly to Midway from Hickam Field on 21 December].

Saratoga: Saratoga, having recently completed an overhaul at the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Bremerton, Washington, reached NAS San Diego [North Island] late in the forenoon watch on 7 December. She was to embark her air group, as well as Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 221 and a cargo of miscellaneous airplanes to ferry to Pearl Harbor.

Yorktown (CV-5), Ranger (CV-4) and Wasp (CV-7), along with the aircraft escort vessel Long Island (AVG-1), were in the Atlantic Fleet; Hornet (CV-8), commissioned in late October 1941, had yet to carry out her shakedown. Yorktown would be the first Atlantic Fleet carrier to be transferred to the Pacific, sailing on 16 December 1941.

US Navy History

Note that the Enterprise and Lexington had their battlegroups with them, but weren't anywhere close to each other while the Saratoga was in San Diego.

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whitefire
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That's what I thought too.
Conspiracy theories are much more interesting, (don't you think?) when the outcome is a (seeming) net positive, as I think most see PH as being now.
Ones like the one that bother KE, and others, myself included, are bothersome since they offer only nefariousness to the myths that surround our history. They steal our heros and paint our leaders as worse than dogs.

[ November 23, 2009, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: whitefire ]

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whitefire
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Thanks to Jwatts for that history I wasn't able to find.
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
There was alot of racism back then. The Americans saw the Japanese as being totally inferior, technologically and in terms of their skill as warriors. The Americans were probably just plain overconfident and didn't think the Japanese had the guts or the know-how to pull off an attack of that scale. I don't think this factor should be underestimated.

LOL, sorry but while there was a lot of racism, the Japanese Navy was widely respected among the US Naval command. The Japanese had some of the most technologically advanced naval ships on the planet and both the US and British navies were keenly aware of that fact.

Furthermore,:

Naval Marshal General Isoroku Yamamoto (4 April 1884 – 18 April 1943) was the commander-in-chief of the Combined Fleet during World War II, a graduate of the Imperial Japanese Naval Academy and a student of the U.S. Naval War College and of Harvard University (1919–1921).

Most of the US Pacific High command had met and had dinner with him. Hell, I suspect a great many had classes with him. I think our ancestors were far more knowledgeable than you give them credit for.

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