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Author Topic: "No Problem Because They Are All Infidels"
Jon Camp
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Mark Steyn

quote:
[A] spokesman for the Islamic Army of Aden said: "We would have preferred to hit a U.S. frigate but no problem because they are all infidels."

No problem. They are all infidels.

When people make certain statements and their acts conform to those statements I tend to take them at their word. The first choice of Islamists is to kill Americans and Jews, or best of all an American Jew. . . . Failing that, they're happy to kill Australians, Britons, Canadians, Swedes, Germans, as they did in Bali. We are all infidels.


quote:
An infidel-friendly enclave in the world's largest Muslim country has been transformed into a mound of dead Australians and Scandinavians and the non-Islamic Indonesians of Bali: No problem, they're all infidels.

I simply can't conceive of this level of hatred or dismissal. I consider anyone human as "utlanning" which is well above the "ramen" distinction required for recoginition as sentient. It seems, though, that many of these Islamist terrorists have reduced anyone not of their same type of thought as "varelse."

Sad really, as these "varelse" they so casually dismiss and kill are capable of communication with them.

* UBB!

And for those who haven't read Speaker for the Dead, there are 4 (possibly 5) levels of sentience:

Utlanning -- human, from another land
Framling -- human, from another world
Ramen -- sentient, another species
Varelse -- no communication possible, sentience unknown; an animal not worthy of consideration
The possible 5th is Djur -- a beast that must be destroyed before it destroys you

[This message has been edited by Jon Camp (edited October 19, 2002).]


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TomDavidson
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The danger, Jon, is that it's easy to dismiss someone who thinks of you as "varelse" as being "varelse" themselves.

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Jon Camp
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quote:
I consider anyone human as "utlanning."

I should hope that would lay to rest any concerns you may have about that from me.

I suppose I could have firmly placed my tongue in cheek and said "I consider anyone human as utlanning' -- even Democrats," but I think this topic is a bit serious for that, neh?


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Redskullvw
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Jon,

the problem is that many people, myself included, have been voicing the oppinion that we have to take the Islamic world at face value. After they persistently kill people simply because they are not Islamic, and repeatedly do it with ever and ever greater success, you have to come to a point where it becomes an us or them situation. Personally i find no redemption in the Islamic world.

If we could genocidally eliminate the inhabitants of most of the Islamic world, I personally would breath a sigh of relief. This dogmatic indoctrination, backwardness, and hostility against all non mulsims has to stop.


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Junpei
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Forgive me for stealing your tactic Eddie, but:

>> If we could genocidally eliminate the inhabitants of most of the Islamic world, I personally would breath a sigh of relief. This dogmatic indoctrination, backwardness, and hostility against all non mulsims has to stop.

Just replace "Islamic" with "Jewish" and "Muslim" with "Jew" and that kind of talk sounds very familiar ...


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Junpei
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>> The danger, Jon, is that it's easy to dismiss someone who thinks of you as "varelse" as being "varelse" themselves.

Indeed. I find it very interesting and even horrifying that we (including myself) are so eager to create mental barriers dividing us from our enemies. The truth is, the American grunt fighting for liberty and justice is not too different from the Nazi soldier who fought for the Fatherland, the Japanese kamikaze pilot who died for the Emperor, and even the presentday terrorist footsoldier. All are human, all are "cut from the same cloth," whether we want to admit it or not.

Keep in mind, if anyone's fed lies long, especially lies they want to hear, they'll believe them. This doesn't make the person pure evil.

IMO, we should stop these people that are targeting infidels and totally dismissing Mohammed's teachings, but as Lao Tzu says, we should only do what is necessary and without pride.

(And don't even think about mentioning that Lao Tzu would probably take a totally different stance on this, because that's a different subject altogether .)

[This message has been edited by Junpei (edited October 19, 2002).]


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Redskullvw
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Ok Junpei

Replace it with Jew or Christian. It still is the smae fundemental result. We have a group of people who have declared the simply because we do not belive in the correct god, that we are not worthy of life. It is that simple. They have declared us to be infidels. They have declared that we have no right to exist except at their whim. They have declared war against us publicly and repeatedly. They repeatedly kill not just military personel but they focus their attacks on civilians. They seem to rejoice when any of us die.

The difference is that I do not take away their right to exist. I do not hate them. I wish them greater political and economic freedom than they have. I want them to have religious freedom whatever god they seek. And America has in many ways tried to use diplomacy and economic incentives to enable this. Yet they still attack us, and unless you are ignorant of history and of the modern trend of these attacks, you have to admit they are more brazen and effective. I think it very likely that they would have no problem or any ideological angst at the thought of setting off a Nuke in your town.

Get real and drop the semantics. These people have declared themselves to be our mortal enemy. If any group behaved this way we would be justified in any means needed to remove the threat they pose to us. To dismiss the possible need to completely dismantle the current governments and religious leadership ignores the fact that that is what they want to do to us.

Now role the clock back to say 1942, and replace it with Nazi and German. The real problem is that we debate what we should do from a spctrum clored with humanitarian compassion. The time for compassion is simply past, not because we choose to circumvent compassion but because the Muslim world choose this path. How many more events such as Bali have to happen before the general American population wakes up and realizes that we will have to kill many people to remove this threat. Are you comfortable with the threat of random death at their hands simply because you are a member of Western Civilization? They show no concern over who you are only that you are a potential casulty. If you are comfortable with this then by all means, engage in diplomacy. Engage in economic charity. Promote the flawed view that Islam means peace. Do all those things which have yet to work in the past and expect a different result.

When The Moslems decided that Chritianity had infected the world enough with its sword play, they did exactly what I am supporting. They cut the Christian warrior states to their kneesss and ssaid "Enough". Had they not done that I am willing to bet the resulting Middle Ages would have been far far worse than they were.

As it is Islam has declared that all other belief systems are incompatible with it. It does not matter if you are Christian, Jew, or Hindu. They hate all of us equally simply because we are not followers of their culture and religion. If they were isolantionistic and stayed in their own corner of the world that would be one thing. But they are actively and aggressively engaged in a campaign of terror, and militarism which is incompatible with peace.

If your governmental policy is dictated by a religious belief that the infidel must die, then you cant be shocked when the result is your own downfall. What I support is a downfall of the current leadership in the Islamic world. If it happened to be a Jewish threat, a Hindu threat, or a Christian threat my responce would be the same. They declared us to be an enemy to be erradicated. If they are willing to erradicate us, that means they have granted implied consent to be erradicated in the process.

GDL


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KenBean
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Hi Jon

A lot of moslems aren't even sure that women are sentient. I'm not sure that women can even be moslems. They are spoken OF, but rarely spoken TO...by the moslem men.

Any culture that flushes half its talent pool down the toilet...on purpose...cannot compete.
Therefore: MOSLEM = LOOSER

Of course they are angry with everybody else.

Best regards
Ken Bean


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Jon Camp
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Even with my belief that all humans are "utlanning," I sadly find my self in agreement that if a large portion of the "Muslim World" were to vanish overnight, I wouldn't shed any tears or lose any sleep over, although I would be saddened at the tragedy of so many lives "in general" being lost.

I happen to agree with you Red, they have declared themselves our mortal enemy, and as such the time for compassion is past. This does not, however, mean that I would ever take any joy in any of their deaths, only that I believe that we must be implacable in our resolve to resist them, and when the time comes that the battle is joined, at the end of that day, I do want it to be "us" and not "them" that is still standing.

Even if I would prefer that we never get to that point, as these are my fellow humans we're talking about.


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TomDavidson
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Ken, I would take your opinions on this issue more seriously if you seemed to know any Muslim women or could spell the word "loser" correctly.

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Redskullvw
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tom i do know muslim women and i frequently cant spell either. Ignoring the fact that he spells slightly better than me, Id say he was much nicer in stating the facts as he sees it to be when compared to me.

Fact remains. They say we muct die. I say they die first.


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TomDavidson
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I know a few Muslim women myself. And while some of them are indeed oppressed, others are not; the culture is by no means uniform in its treatment of women.

Your last observation is in fact the reason I posted what I did EARLIER on this thread: you've become convinced that they mean us nothing but harm and have no intention of communicating, and so believe that we have no choice but to destroy them.

If you're going to use Card's literature to back up this attitude, then, at least be aware that he argues very strenuously against this very behavior throughout the Ender books, even as he repeatedly shows people willing to apply it.

Muslims are NOT varelse. Period.


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Redskullvw
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Actually Tom I was not even taking anything from Card's work into consideration. They say we should die and are killing us now. I say they no longer can be tolerated. They die before we die. Simple fact.

When they acknowledge my right to breath and worship my own god freely then I'll consider leinency towards them.


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TomDavidson
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The thing is, who are "they?" How many people who DO acknowledge your right to breathe are you willing to eliminate in order to kill the handful that don't?

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graywolfe
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That's always the fundamental issue. I won't toss out blanket condemnations of peoples. But I will suggest that we need to find out how much fundamental support exists country by country for the corrupt insane leadership, and the religious fanatics who wish to over throw them in many of these countries. We really need to find out if Iran is simply a 'democratic leader with power' away from being a friend, or a society that enjoys the terrorist religious leadership that actually pulls the strings. We need to find out if Pakistan and Yemen are essentially haven's for terrorists because they agree with them, or haven's for terrorists because political leadership is tenuous and usually forced upon them. We need to decide whether or not out and out enemies like Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia could actually be our friends if they had a legit governing body, and we treated them more with respect and equanimity on an individual basis, than with oil based pragmatism (although right now, the actions of the religious, and political leadership of those countries deserves no respect whatsoever, the people, on an individual person by person basis may fundamentally be different). Finally we need to decide if democracy is currently compatible with the cultures that exist in the middle east. Whether or not one approves of crowning each country with a political system foreign to it, we do need to come to terms with whether or not this could become successful and acceptable to the people involved. If democracy is not compatible or acceptable, war is likely inevitable, with at least some of the middle east because the leadership that rises to the top in most middle eastern countries when democracy is left in a dust bin are generally military strong man, or insane religious fanatics, neither of which can coexist with ourselves on the world's stage.

I agree with Tom that we shouldn't be flippant in our thinking about this, but I also agree to some extent with the idea that a fundmanetal crisis of cultures may come to pass, where we can no longer succeed with diplomacy, and rather must settle the accounts through war. I also happen to feel that the sooner we take care of our dependence on oil (not foreign oil, but rather oil itself, on its own) and develop our own legit and feasible sources of alternative energy the more effectively, and honestly we will be able to deal with the Middle East itself. Unfortunately for now, we will not be able to consistently deal with the middle east (oil producing nations)honestly and effectively as long as our dependence on something they have by geohistorical accident exists. That being said, it cannot, and should not stop us from taking action in our own defense from those who would wish us and do us, and the rest of the freedom loving people in this world, harm.

Unfortunately I think war may in fact be unavoidable, particularly if there is another attack, as some members of Osama's extended crew seem to have suggested after the latest incidents in Bali and outside of Yemen.

[This message has been edited by graywolfe (edited October 21, 2002).]


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Locus
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The US granted woman's sufferage less than 100 years ago. True equality is just now arriving in mainstream society but perceptions still lag.

Many christians share the view that women are inferior and should be hidden away in the kitchen rasing babies.

A large number of Muslim women who live in North America would HAPPILY move back to the middle east if the violence subsided and they were assured a reasonable chance of livlihood. Many of them cling to their traditional roles and the kitchen like a drowning man to a raft.

A notion has been growing in our society that because a woman chooses to become a homemaker and stay home in knit socks for the children..she must somehow be inferior or repressed. (the ramifications of a man who does this are even more confusing ..the instances are still rare enough such men are considered a bit of a novelty..and his peers frequently have a difficult time relating to him)

I don't believe the test of individual worth is in what they bring home in their paycheck ..or if indeed they bring one home. I believe one can focus their life on improving the life of their family ...and not be a less a person for it and certainly not be considered "enslaved" "repressed" or any other number of popular catch words.

Middle eastern women derive great pride within their culture from their ability to do traditional roles. Many of them have balance within their households where the husband and wife prepares meals together. Many don't go to church ...some eat pork...numerous women work and bring home salaries.

In summary there is every bit the diversity and contradictions to be found in middle eastern culture as in our own. In fact they may be even MORE diverse as we've been polarizing as a culture around the ubiquitous almighty TV.


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Baldar
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quote:
Many christians share the view that women are inferior and should be hidden away in the kitchen rasing babies.

No, I think very few Christians have that view. And I know most do not. I was wondering where you get your information? In any case I would find it very hard to show equivalence between "Christian nations" and "Islamic nations" where the equality of women are concerned, or do you feel that their is a level of equality in the Islamic nations not found in the "christian" nations?

quote:
A notion has been growing in our society that because a woman chooses to become a homemaker and stay home in knit socks for the children..she must somehow be inferior or repressed. (the ramifications of a man who does this are even more confusing ..the instances are still rare enough such men are considered a bit of a novelty..and his peers frequently have a difficult time relating to him)

Actually that is a notion promulgated by the womens movement itself in an attempt to get more woment to work outside the home. Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinam for instance suggested just such a view in the 1970's and early 80's. They have since changed their position to a more neutral tone, but that view has been around for years.

quote:
In summary there is every bit the diversity and contradictions to be found in middle eastern culture as in our own. In fact they may be even MORE diverse as we've been polarizing as a culture around the ubiquitous almighty TV.

The largest Islamic societies in the middle east do not allow a woman to be accompanied without a man (relative), they cannot drive a car, they are forced to wear certain clothing items whether they wish to or not (check with the "fashion police" of those nations). And a number of other rights including property are included. I know of no woman who has successfully filed a "rape charge" against her husband. These are not diversity issues they are however human rights issues. Or would you disagree? Do we embrace diversity (including female circumcision) at the expense of individual rights? A bit too PC for me.



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Locus
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Note the "many". There's a large degree of separation between "many christians" and "most christians". Point being that ideals of equal rights are not universal even within our own culture. This silly crusade to bring them to others is wrong.

The women's movement simply exploited an existing phenomenon. Things associated with traditional female roles were undesirable to men ...they simply made them undesirable to women as well. Note the prevalence of women in pants and the lack of men in skirts. A very simple psychological trick.

Also note that people in our own society are forced to wear certain articles of clothing no matter if they wish to or not. If you wish to challenge this show up at work in a mini-skirt and lipstick for the next couple months and let me know how it goes.

Rape vs. a spouse would be nearly impossible to prove in the US. Assault would be about the best you'd do. Property laws...you don't own property here in the US...you rent it. If you believe otherwise skip your taxes for a few years and see what happens.

You've been watching too much TV. Islamic countries are more free than you think. Are they perfect? No...for that matter neither is our society. Many of the problems in the middle east(and africa) are not as a result of Islam so much as they are a result of foreign powers tinkering in the region for centuries for their own economic benefit (or to enlighten the poor masses a.k.a. for their own economic benefit). I'm extremely wary of more well intentioned "help" directed at the region. Nukes might be kinder.

Individual rights cannot be GIVEN to a society. Our own society...with each iteration we water down the masses a little more by protecting our children to death. It really frightens me what we can do to children for their own good these days. Right down to searching their lockers and personal property without their consent or a warant.


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maniacal_engineer
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Locus
I worked with a former sea captain who told me about ports in africa that were managed by the british. Workers were trained in the operation and maintenance of the automated loading/unloading equipment, and the port ran smoothly. Then the ports were nationalized, the brits went home, and the place fell apart. Everything was disorganized and the equipment lapsed into disrepair. instead of having a several guys unload a ship with automated equipment, they had several hundred hauling things out manually.
The problem was not the british, the problem was corruption, nepotism, incompetence, and sinecure.

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Locus
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"The problem was not the british, the problem was corruption, nepotism, incompetence, and sinecure."

The British(or French etc) were not exactly innocent from these things. The same pattern repeated itself in virtually every colony state..the common element being the imperial power. Also ..the imperial powers in most cases only withdrew when the situation was becoming so unstable they couldn't maintain their position. Then when their puppet governments couldn't hold on without them they collapsed and the imperial powers would shake their heads and muse about what savages these people are.


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KenBean
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Hi Tom

I didn't want anyone to confuse the word "loser" with looser ,( reasoning loosely)

Locus, I do know many moslem women, both here and living all over the middle east.

Here in America all bets are off: Moslem women get infected with personal freedom, vegetarian hindu children begin filling out and becoming muscular, (hitting burger king with their friends), honorable oriental kids begin dating and even marrying we red faced barbarians, Catholic women begin taking birth control pills without excommunication, and Baptist kids grow up without fearing to have sex standing up,(lest they appear to be dancing)

The moslem women I know in the mid-east are admittedly the exceptions. Their husbands respect them enough to allow them to meet "infidels...of "THE BOOK". IE CHRISTIANS, JEWS, AND EVEN OCCASIONALLY, ZORASTRIANS. In view of the "sequestered culture" they are a part of, I felt especially honored to have met those women, and also enjoyed playing with their children in their homes.

One of the guys here has been ranting about TV puddling us. Interestingly enough, in the mid east...the telephone is the culprit.
The girls leave their schools, see a young man that attracts them...and write their phone number on a matchstick, and "accidently" drop it on the sidewalk for him. All kinds of sub-rosa stuff is the result, and a quiet giggle to we visitors.

(Lord, now they will outlaw matches if this gets around).

The final analysis is that young (or middle class) moslem men are sexually frustrated, even mate frustrated. There, many have to save up for years to buy a wife.

Once upon a time a young moslem man could simply go steal a couple of camels, or fight for them when necessary, and hand them to the girl's dad. That's cool. Now it is much more complicated.

Best regards
KenBean


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Baldar
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Locus:

Your judgement is a bit skewed. Lets look at what you are saying here:


quote:

Note the "many". There's a large degree of separation between "many christians" and "most christians". Point being that ideals of equal rights are not universal even within our own culture. This silly crusade to bring them to others is wrong.

"Many" is really not accurate either. It would be more accurate to say that "some" Christians may hold this view, in that a small minority does. I would suggest that here you are trying to stretch some small point to cover all areas. I would still be interested in where you get your information that "many" christians have a view that women are inferior. That sounds like you are patently ignoring facts here.

quote:
The women's movement simply exploited an existing phenomenon. Things associated with traditional female roles were undesirable to men ...they simply made them undesirable to women as well. Note the prevalence of women in pants and the lack of men in skirts. A very simple psychological trick.

Whether it was exploited or not. Women who chose to work at home as mothers were made to feel of less worth than women who did not. The blame lies squarely on the woman's movement for such an action.

quote:
Also note that people in our own society are forced to wear certain articles of clothing no matter if they wish to or not. If you wish to challenge this show up at work in a mini-skirt and lipstick for the next couple months and let me know how it goes.You've been watching too much TV. Islamic countries are more free than you think. Are they perfect? No...for that matter neither is our society. Many of the problems in the middle east(and africa) are not as a result of Islam so much as they are a result of foreign powers tinkering in the region for centuries for their own economic benefit (or to enlighten the poor masses a.k.a. for their own economic benefit). I'm extremely wary of more well intentioned "help" directed at the region. Nukes might be kinder.



Again that infinite stretch to try to make one extreme society (Islam in the middle east) look like a more tolerant society (the west). I think you will agree that the point does not hold much credibility. Its not a question of watching TV (not a big issue in my home, I generally preserve the pretelevision tradition of having my furniture arranged in a circle and not a three sided open square with the TV at on it), its a question of knowing the region. My friedns are fairly familiar with it, being Saudi, Persian and Iraqi. The difference between the cultures are very far apart with the West offering much much more in the way of personal freedom's for women. These cultures exist in a mysgonist state in which women are certainly not considered co-equal either by law or by culture. So no, they are not freer than I believe, our so my Arabic friends say.

Regarding "foreign" tinkering. The historical facts, especially of that area don't equate with your position. The area anciently was conquered by Persians, then Macedonians, then Rome, Byzantium, then the Mongols (which allowed the spread of Islam to Asia) then later Mehmet II which retained the form of the Ottoman empire until the end of WW I. The area has never really had a tradition of independent states. The Ottoman empire effectively controlled the area until the British mandate took over. It was not "tinkering" because you cannot tinker with what has never been fixed. No, if the British or other groups had stayed, western influence would certainly have been stronger, and that "christian/western" influence would have created a society similar to Israels reducing the orthodoxy of religion and increasing personal freedom. Your position is overly "PC" and without real bearing to fact.

quote:
Individual rights cannot be GIVEN to a society. Our own society...with each iteration we water down the masses a little more by protecting our children to death.

Actually a constitution is only as good as the people it serves. A good case in point is the constitution of Mexico. When Mexico first gained its independence from Spain, it so admired the US (much to their later chagrine), that it copied the late 1700's constitution almost word for word, and yet we see a vastly different institution in place.

quote:
It really frightens me what we can do to children for their own good these days. Right down to searching their lockers and personal property without their consent or a warant.

Puhleeeze Lockers are the property of the school and children do not have the same rights as adults. I don't need to give the Miranda to my kids everytime I send them to bed early without dessert for bad behaviour.


[This message has been edited by Baldar (edited October 22, 2002).]


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Locus
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I will stick by "many". I feel comfortable calling a group of 10000 or more people "many".

Likewise I can find many Americans who commute to work via horse every morning.

"The blame lies squarely on the woman's movement for such an action."

Along with other sources. They merely hijacked a pre-existing trend they hardly originated it.

The television comment was a brief way of saying you give too much credibility to mass media. You may have friends in Middle Easterners.. I have family across virtually all ethnic and religious divisions so I give examples from my own personal experience from what I've seen with my own eyes. No matter whether it being an Iraqi snuggling his new wife on the couch or an Iranian cooking dinner with her Syrian husband or an Egyption with a Jewish wife. How about the Syrian girl who is a "technical" virgin?(and she hasn't been killed yet for her immoral ways ..wow). There is a whole spectrum of life in the middle east which is ignored in favor of the sensationalist view.

"Israels reducing the orthodoxy of religion and increasing personal freedom. Your position is overly "PC" and without real bearing to fact."

Israel has not done that. Jews still are very much a special class in Israel. *grin* ..I never thought I'd find myself being accused of being PC. I, the one who stood up in class and suggested Norplant devices should be a condition of food assistance. Oh well, no one is perfect.

"Lockers are the property of the school and children do not have the same rights as adults. "

Storage facilities for rent are property of the owner ..not the person who holds the lease.. but a warrant is still needed to search them. By your logic I can invite someone to my home and while they're visiting search their car and luggage as it's on my premises.

Your consideration of children not to having the same rights as adults is roughly on par with how blacks didn't have the same rights as whites or women with men. they seemed reasonable to most people AT THE TIME.


So much of the nature of freedom is entertwined with what you want to do. When what the system will allow and what you wish to do come into conflict ..then you are no longer in a free state. For instance ..wanting to start a business but being unable to because you can't get the building you own rezoned to commercial or oh say putting a man who fought in WW II out of the home he was born in because he couldn't pay his school taxes when he got old and feeble.

Yes ..there are different degrees to everything ...but to make everyone 'free like us' would be a bad thing, particularly when you start by railing on the inadequacies of Islam and the terrible position it places women in, when the majority of the women in those positions aren't complaining.


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Baldar
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Fact is you are being PC. Your suggestion of moral relativism between a culture that "actively" denies women their rights and one that does not or at least attempts to be equal is a blindness that you seem to be proposing. Common sense and the first hand knowledge of those of us exposed to the Middle East certainly make your position untenable. The Christian west is better for women, it is freer for all involved. Your attempts to somehow justify your position by pulling out exceptions in one culture and comparing them to a rule in another are illogical and faulty at best.
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Baldar
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quote:
"Lockers are the property of the school and children do not have the same rights as adults. "

Storage facilities for rent are property of the owner ..not the person who holds the lease.. but a warrant is still needed to search them. By your logic I can invite someone to my home and while they're visiting search their car and luggage as it's on my premises.


I don't know about the school in your area, but in ours they are given to the student to use, not rented, they are retained as school property.

As to the warrant question, a hotel manager can open any door without a warrant for the police. A manager that rents rooms can open those doors for the police also. He is the owner and it is his right to do so. Check the law out.

quote:
Your consideration of children not to having the same rights as adults is roughly on par with how blacks didn't have the same rights as whites or women with men. they seemed reasonable to most people AT THE TIME.

So you believe that children are not really molested by adults since technically they should have the same rights and responsibilities? That is plain dumb. I suggest you check out the law. To equate something like that is to fall into the trap of groups like NAMBLA that believe pedophilia is not a crime. And then to tie some racist view to it is incredibly ignorant of the actual situation. It is not reasonable to assume children have the same maturity and cognitive ability. Are you saying the average nine year old has the same maturity of the average 18 year old? You just shot your credibility down the well. Get a grip.

quote:
o much of the nature of freedom is entertwined with what you want to do. When what the system will allow and what you wish to do come into conflict ..then you are no longer in a free state. For instance ..wanting to start a business but being unable to because you can't get the building you own rezoned to commercial or oh say putting a man who fought in WW II out of the home he was born in because he couldn't pay his school taxes when he got old and feeble.

Welcome to the real world missy. Personal responsibility counts for something.

quote:
Yes ..there are different degrees to everything ...but to make everyone 'free like us' would be a bad thing, particularly when you start by railing on the inadequacies of Islam and the terrible position it places women in, when the majority of the women in those positions aren't complaining.

Your right, middle eastern women are not ready for freedom, they are still, how would you say it, culturally inferior, or would you say mentally inferior. And of course they are not complaining, after all if they do, their husbands can beat them, banish them, divorce them, all without consequence. Such blindness.


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