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Author Topic: Fischer-Price Voting Devices
KenBean
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Hi Guys

Have any of you seen the little joke floating around on the net lately?

It's a little plastic house with the different shaped holes in the roof.

One shape (round say), for Republicans, one shape for Democrats, etc.

Has anyone else here ever eaten a persimmon?

They are very sweet...with an after-bite that makes one's lips pucker.

I found myself smiling as if I had just eaten a persimmon, after seeing the picture of the proposed voting machine.

Dare I propose some sort of vote where no straight tickets can be voted?

Dare I suggest some sort of eligibility requirements to voting beyond knowing "round" from "square" ?

My cousin, the economist, believes that he himself should be prevented from voting in State elections because he RECIEVES more from the State government than he PAYS. He feels that it is a conflict of interests since he is a proff. at a State Supported University.

Any associated thoughts on the eve of elections?

Best regards
KenBean


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Grant Morgan
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As a minimum requirement for voting in a given race, how about we require a voter to know the names of at least two of the candidates?
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Locus
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How about a literacy test?

Or I know!!I know!! You have to be a white male property owner...

(that's sarcasm)

I think we should allow children to vote in elections ..it'd get them used to particpating in the government ..and they certainly can't make any worse decisions than are already being made. ...What's the worst thats gonna happen anyway? It's virtually always either a democrat or a republican who gets elected. Get enough spirit of bipartisanship happening and we'll be a one party country.

As it is now we could run the country with a coin flip at each election and save alot of polling expenses and election budgets.


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maniacal_engineer
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if kids voted it would only increase the power of the teacher's union, which has WAYYYY to much power already. I think the NEA is probably the single greatest obstacle to progress in education in the united states.
That said, beside their historical misuse in the black south, what is wrong with some sort of a test to qualify to vote. just be able to identify a couple of logical fallacies: appeal to authority, ad homenim attack, hasty generalization, reduction to the absurd. If you just required that people be able to recognize even a couple of the tactics used in propaganda (meaning any material designed to persuade) then we would be a lot better off than we are someone can't figure out the palm beach butterfly ballot, you gotta wonder if they really have any business voting.

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Dan Allen
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I know that Arizona has had a program in place where kids do vote in the general elections. Their votes aren't used to decide the issue, but they are tabulated and published so that the kids can get an idea of how the process works.
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Everard
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"reduction to the absurd"

This isn't a logical fallacy. A reductio ad absurdam shows the absurdities implicit in a false argument.


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msquared
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Kids can vote here as well. In fact my wife and I are planning on voting at the same time, taking both kids with us so that they can vote. The polling station is located in their school, right across the street from our house.

Luckily, I have already brain washed my 11 year old to be a nice Republican and vote the straight Republican ticket.

msquared

edited to clear up the last sentence.

[This message has been edited by msquared (edited October 31, 2002).]


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Sohryu Asuka Langley
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Kids shouldn't be in voting in the first place. If they can't understand slopes and quadratics what makes you all think that they meet a requirement to voting?

It WOULD be nice however to teach them all about politics and how they run, like say make a mandatory course on it like I had to take (waste of a half a credit) At least I got to understand something and even this question was brought up in one of our assignments.

Besides....
I get to vote next year and I'm seriously thinking of not voting because either way, Canada will be run by a bunch of retards...


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JonathanTheOmnipotent
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quote:
I know that Arizona has had a program in place where kids do vote in the general elections. Their votes aren't used to decide the issue, but they are tabulated and published so that the kids can get an idea of how the process works.
--Dan Allen

quote:
Kids can vote here as well. In fact my wife and I are planning on voting at the same time, taking both kids with us so that they can vote. The polling station is located in their school, right across the street from our house.

Luckily, I have already brain washed my 11 year old to be a nice Republican and vote the straight Republican ticket.


--msquared

I can see that getting kids to vote is good "practice" for real voting when they grow up...but pretending that their vote means anything? Every parent is going to tell the kid who to vote for. I think the only interesting thing that could happen is when one parent is a democrat and the other is republican, and they both try to vie for the kid's vote. Hmmm...actually, I could see that as a plot on a sitcom...


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msquared
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JTO,

Of course the kids do not think that their vote counts, they know that it is just for fun. However, it does get the idea of this civic duty into their minds.

By the way, my wife is a liberal independent(Democrat who hates to call herself that). It is just that my son is so intelligent and worldly, that he has looked at the facts and found the truth.

I actually have no idea what the kids are voting on. It may just be some type of school issue, sort of like a student body thing. Or it may just be for Governor.

By the way, I wonder how fast some one here can make a link between the Dem. running for Governor in the State of Ohio and Star Trek. There is a link.

msquared


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Dan Allen
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"By the way, I wonder how fast some one here can make a link between the Dem. running for Governor in the State of Ohio and Star Trek. There is a link."

IIRC, isn't the actress who played Janeway his wife?


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msquared
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Dan Allen gets it in only 8 minutes. Let see how long it take him to get her full name and his.

msquared


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TomDavidson
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"I can see that getting kids to vote is good 'practice' for real voting when they grow up...but pretending that their vote means anything? Every parent is going to tell the kid who to vote for."

In all fairness, it's worth pointing out that this was an argument advanced against women's suffrage, too. It went: since wives will always vote for whomever their husband picks, the candidate most popular with married men will always win if we allow women to vote.


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Dan Allen
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"Dan Allen gets it in only 8 minutes. Let see how long it take him to get her full name and his."
Tim Hagan, and Kate Mulgrew. Is that full enough?

Now where's my prize?


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Dan Allen
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quote:
In all fairness, it's worth pointing out that this was an argument advanced against women's suffrage, too. It went: since wives will always vote for whomever their husband picks, the candidate most popular with married men will always win if we allow women to vote.

Boy were they wrong...

I haven't heard much more about it in the last couple of years, but at the time there was some discussion about the differences between the choices the kids made versus those of their parents. And it made for a lot of discussion in the classrooms about those differences and the possible why's behind them.


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Locus
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"Kids shouldn't be in voting in the first place. If they can't understand slopes and quadratics what makes you all think that they meet a requirement to voting?"

You might be suprised how many adults this disqualifies from voting ..in fact ..if slopes and quadratics are the criteria for voting there may well be more qualified voters ages 14-30 than above.

Secret ballot goes a long way toward allowing kids freedom to choose their own canidates. If you coerce a kid into voting your way for the first few years of their voting life...wait til their rebellious teenage years kick in.

I believe if the time is taken to educate kids..they CAN make decisions on par with adults. It will certainly have politicians studying kids as relevant instead of subhuman.


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msquared
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Dan,

Who said anything about a prize?

If you show up at next years OnreyCon, I will have a suitable prize for you there.

msquared


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Sohryu Asuka Langley
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Locus,

It isn't surprising that you'd take that quote from me, but think about it, slopes and quadratics are for high school students, not elementary students (although 20 years from now that'll change in Canada) anyways, I don't think that someone's childhood should include voting. I would understand if you or whomever started this whole thing were arguing about people ages 14 and up should vote but little children? my sister is only 7 and there is no way she'd comprehend what voting is all about. Children have a tendancy to go for what looks better and who has more to offer, not the quality of what the person is offering them. Even I can see the munipilation in Buffalo (chanel 4 all the way!!!) their commercials depict both candidates for gov. as quarrelling ninmrods. To me both sides translates as "Hey folks! this guys a total hoser! he won't give this to you even if he says so?!" if you tried the same act on children, they're only going to vote for the "best" or "better" candidate because the commercials say so.

Now if you'll excuse me...my PS2 is calling for me...


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Dan Allen
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quote:
Who said anything about a prize?

If you show up at next years OnreyCon, I will have a suitable prize for you there.



The prize would have to be roundtrip tickets I'm afraid...

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maniacal_engineer
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locus
thats just what we need - more instant-gratification voters. narcissism is a defining characteristic of the immature and if voters have a whats-in-it-for-me attitude, instead of a what-is-the-best-for-everyone attitude it results in candidates that pander and buy votes by promising a longer suck on the teat of public money. But 'public money' is really forcibly confiscated private money, and haveing more voters that are immature, illiterate, or on the dole justs accelerates the rate at which we get to a society where the many confiscate the work of the few. I make a good wage, but don't pay much if any tax because of all the deductions from kids (I have 10, and claim 9 of them on my taxes) I have no problem with a law that says that everyone who doesn't pay taxes, or who is on welfare, doesn't get to vote, even though I would disenfranchise myself. A slightly more palatable suggestion to most people would be one in which only tax payers can vote on bond measures.

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Dan Allen
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quote:
...I don't think that someone's childhood should include voting. I would understand if you or whomever started this whole thing were arguing about people ages 14 and up should vote but little children? my sister is only 7 and there is no way she'd comprehend what voting is all about. Children have a tendancy to go for what looks better and who has more to offer, not the quality of what the person is offering them.

Childhood shouldn't include a lot of different things that are being pushed onto our children either, but it still happens. Obviously a 7 year old isn't going to get as much out of this exercise as somebody that is taking a class on government, but they would probably get a real kick out of doing something that 'the big people' do.
The whole point of government mandated education is supposed to be providing the students with the tools they will need to be a functioning member of society. In a democratic society one of those tools will be an understanding of the process, and a desire to take part in it. Studying the structure of government while ignoring how the individual person plays a part in the whole process isn't helping improve our form of government any.
Teaching students how the process is supposed to work, then letting them take part in it should give them a better understanding of the whole thing, and make them more willing to take part once their vote will actually count. And, hopefully, be able to make better informed choices.

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Dan Allen
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quote:
I have no problem with a law that says that everyone who doesn't pay taxes, or who is on welfare, doesn't get to vote, even though I would disenfranchise myself. A slightly more palatable suggestion to most people would be one in which only tax payers can vote on bond measures.

I actually wouldn't have a problem with restricting welfare recipients from voting either, but that should be the deciding factor, not whether they pay taxes or not. Also, a person on the dole should not be allowed to determine how much they get from it, so the restriction should everything but zoning issues. Restricting welfare receipients from voting for representatives would probably end the practice of buying votes through campaign promises of more welfare, and make it much easier for voters to see what they are really being sold.
But that's not going to happen, so the next best thing is to try to give the youth a better understanding of what the responsibilities of voting entail, and how/why it will affect them personally.

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Locus
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"Children have a tendancy to go for what looks better and who has more to offer, not the quality of what the person is offering them."

Sounds very much like the way adults pick canidates.

"thats just what we need - more instant-gratification voters. narcissism is a defining characteristic of the immature and if voters have a whats-in-it-for-me attitude, instead of a what-is-the-best-for-everyone attitude it results in candidates that pander and buy votes by promising a longer suck on the teat of public money"

Again ...what would change? Narcissism the defining characteristic of immature? Have you taken a look at the way the wealthy "respectable class" dress, live, and the plastic surgery they get on a routine basis? Who would you have run the country? You must realize the largest argument against democracy has always been that the masses are not intelligent enough to rule themselves? How is it worse that the masses vote themselves handouts...versus the ruling class breaks the collective back of the working class to build a few extra palaces?


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Sohryu Asuka Langley
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I would have myself run the country, but then again I might turn communist on the people....
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dyany
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Actually, some of the arguments here are the reason the United States was setup as a republic, not a democracy. The founding fathers new that if any one group of people ruled, they would selfishly destroy the country -- either the rich by working the poor to death, or the poor by voting all of the money into their own pockets.
That being said, I think we've been moving disgustingly more towards an oligarchy for many years. It is no longer even remotely possible for someone without significant personal financial means to even get on the ticket, let alone be elected, and the voting public is played like a fiddle without having honest, issue-based information available. I have tried in vain for a number of years to find a source of unbiased (i.e., not sponsored by special interests, the candidates, or their parties) information on all of the voting issues and candidates in an election and have found that there is NONE out there and very little to no interest in gathering such information.
As to kids having fake votes...why not? as long as they don't count it is an educational experience, especially if they hand out pamphlets describing the process and how to find the information they need to make a decision.
Dy

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