Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » IRAQ - an interesting idea

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: IRAQ - an interesting idea
LetterRip
Member
Member # 310

 - posted      Profile for LetterRip   Email LetterRip   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I saw this idea a discussion about a protest against a war with Iraq.

The individual suggested the following scenario...

quote:
Inspectors demand to see facility. Iraqis obstruct. Inspectors say: "Fine, we'll just assume bad shit is going in there and call in an airstrike"

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/10/30/21821/475

Although I am concerned about the potential danger to the inspectors, this seems like it could make for rapid progress and act as a significant disincentive for Sadam to obstruct the inspection.

Seems like it might be a reasonable intermediary between war and the concerns over Sadam stalling for time if inspections take place.

LetterRip

(PS accidentally deleted the original posting when I inserted the link...)


Posts: 8287 | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yup, thats basically the correct response...

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nathan
Member
Member # 683

 - posted      Profile for Nathan   Email Nathan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But aren't many of the places we'de like to inspect hospitals, orphanages, etc.? If not, shouldn't it be? It's not like storing weapons under human shields would be an unprecedented move on Saddam's part. Of course, I suppose you didn't specify that the airstrikes would be against the facility in question.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Baldar
Member
Member # 669

 - posted      Profile for Baldar   Email Baldar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I could see it now.

UN inspector "If you do not let us in, we will bomb the plant"

Response by the guard "You are advised not to."

UN inspector "Very well call it in...."

Investigations later reveal it was a "hospital" for the children of Nothern Kurds, taken to receive "enforced" medical treatment and vaccinations.

Saddam: "We told the imperialists not to..."


Posts: 3834 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LetterRip
Member
Member # 310

 - posted      Profile for LetterRip   Email LetterRip   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Simple,

announce the bombing will take place in x minutes (say thirty), make sure the announcement is over CNN and to every major news outlet, and jam it over Iraqi radio and television.

Have individuals available to help with the evacuations if need be. This is to keep the inspectors from being blocked for days or weeks, an hour or so delay will not allow much to be smuggled out, especially if a security force examines the evacuees and equipment evacuated.

LetterRip


Posts: 8287 | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Baldar
Member
Member # 669

 - posted      Profile for Baldar   Email Baldar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sure, I guess we have to take over the airways too. Oh, the doctors don't have TV's or radios. It just won't work. When you know the next automatic move for an opponent, its easy to set the trap.
Posts: 3834 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seagull
Member
Member # 694

 - posted      Profile for seagull   Email seagull   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The tactics of fighting against forces that are using human shields can get much more complicated.

My roommate in 1983 was an Israeli soldier in the Lebanon 1982 war (near Beirut). He told me that when they approached the PLO bunkers he could see that the armed men were holding civilians as human shields. When the Israeli units got close to the bunker the civilians' fear of the crossfire overcame their fear of their PLO captors and they tried to run. My roommate told me that he saw PLO fighters shooting those civilians in the back.

Also, IIRC, the serbs used some Canadian prisoners ("peace-keepers" aka human shields) to prevent bombing some of their positions.

Finally, in the recent siege of the church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, there were a bunch of activists who purposely broke in to the compound with the express goal of becoming human shields. IIRC, they were one of the last sticking points in negotiating the evacuation of the church because they had their own conditions. They insisted on being dragged out of the church by Israeli soldiers in front of TV Cameras. The final deal could not go through until Israel agreed to provide soldiers that would participate in the "show".

Airstrikes don't work well. Warnings are useless as long as the human shields fear their captors more than they fear their "rescuers". Remember that as long as the terrorist/tyrant knows where you and your family live, it is useless to get out of the situation alive. Moreover warnings are moot when the human shields are tied up or locked up.

Sending in troops is not necessarily any better than bombing. Swat teams with snipers may be the better choice, but I am not sure how that would work against a dead man switch, or remotely activated explosives when the people pressing the button do not care about the lives of either the hostages or the Iraqi soldiers in the facility.


Posts: 1910 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LetterRip
Member
Member # 310

 - posted      Profile for LetterRip   Email LetterRip   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was thinking more of having loud speakers and such annoucing the bombing. Having assistance to help evacuate. Having camera crews from the major foreign news areas so that it is clear what is going on.

Essentially this would eliminate Iraq using it as a PR move against the UN/US. Would clearly show where the culpabilty was, etc.

The number of potential civilian deaths from the usage of 'human shields' is likely small compared to the number that would be 'collateral damage' in a full scale war.

As to IRAQ using it to set a trap - while the death of one flight crew would be unfortunate - this would result in immediate war, and thus would be foolish if Sadam wishes to maintain his power.

So, all told it still seems to have much greater upside than downside compared to the alternatives.

The swat team is also a valid alternative, and likely to have a more humane result.

The main point is, is that it should be claer to Sadam that stalling will do him no good, and may actively cause him harm.

LetterRip


Posts: 8287 | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Baldar
Member
Member # 669

 - posted      Profile for Baldar   Email Baldar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It is already clear to Saddam that stalling does very well. Seems we are forgetting where we are now ane why we are at this point. Stalling, and then going about doing as he wishes. Better to do away with the government and have a new one.
Posts: 3834 | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1