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Author Topic: US Demands IDF Probe How 21 y/o American Lost Her Eye
RickyB
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Here

Lemme guess. This daughter of an Israeli citizen was a terrorist? Was throwing rocks? Threatening someone?

No. She was protesting peacefully, and a border police thug shot her directly with a tear gas canister, against IDF's own RoE (which specify that gas canisters be fired only in an arch trajectory and never directly. I know others who were hit this way too. Also have a friend who nearly lost an eye from a rubber bullet fired at him from 20 yards despite doing nothing dangerous.

But since the Israeli judge chose not to believe him, and insisted he was hit in the eye with a rock (doctors removed the rubber bullet from his ocular bone), I guess I can't "prove" it.

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Hannibal
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With All Due Respect (Capital Intended)...
She came to Israel as an EXCHANGE STUDENT and miss used her VISA to demonstrate in an IDF checkpoints.

Enough with the grovelness and need for explaining. When one goes and demonstrates against soldiers one puts himself in a risk.

I want to see what will happen to an Israeli student who miss uses his VISA in the states in order to demonstrate against the US Police or Army. Since repeated cases of such incidents happened in the past I dont need to guess what would have happend. I know that the Americans would simply break every bone in his body.

Because Israelis are barbarians who repeatedly conduct an excessive use of force while the Americans are professionaly doing their job.

You are an exchange student? be an exchange student, demonstrating against IDF soldiers is not part of your VISA.

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RickyB
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"She came to Israel as an EXCHANGE STUDENT and miss used her VISA to demonstrate in an IDF checkpoints."

a) since when is being an exchange student inconsistent with the right of free expression?

b) The woman is Jewish, her father is an Israeli citizen, and had she wanted she could be a citizen upon arrival at Ben Gurion airport, so your argument is utterly hollow.

"Since repeated cases of such incidents happened in the past I dont need to guess what would have happend. I know that the Americans would simply break every bone in his body."

That's a lie. They might detain him for pretty long, as happened with the guys arrested after 9-11 for mouthing off about "good, now the Americans will learn what it's like". but "break every bone"? Proof, please.

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Hannibal
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"a) since when is being an exchange student inconsistent with the right of free expression?"

An exchange student has the right to be an exchange student, and not demonstrate against soldiers of the host country.

a "Tourist" enjoys many types of freedoms. but a tourist to a country does not go and demonstrate against the soldiers of that hosting country. It is just something you do not do.

I do not think that my argument is hollow, it does not matter. she can be a fully fledged Israeli citizen for all I care and still suffer the same consequences if she demonstrates against soldiers. Why do you play so naive? What do you think would happen in such demonstrations? ofcourse rubber bullets and tear gas grenades will be used against the demonstrators. Demonstrators go there expecting this.

"That's a lie. They might detain him for pretty long"
No its ot a lie, I remmember Israelis describe how they were detained and bit up (severly) by cops after 9-11. but I can not find it online. Its not because It does not exist, but because I suck at searching these things.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I do not think that my argument is hollow, it does not matter...
"My argument's not hollow; it's just irrelevant!"

For what it's worth, I just dined with some international exchange students at the college where I work who spent a portion of their break traveling to protest the School of the Americas. No bones were broken or eyes struck by grenades.

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RickyB
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"An exchange student has the right to be an exchange student, and not demonstrate against soldiers of the host country.

a "Tourist" enjoys many types of freedoms. but a tourist to a country does not go and demonstrate against the soldiers of that hosting country. It is just something you do not do."

If I recall correctly, she was on the Palestinian side of Kalandia checkpoint. Once again we see that Israelis want to dictate who will be in the Palestinian Authority territories and what they will be allowed to do there.

" it does not matter. she can be a fully fledged Israeli citizen for all I care and still suffer the same consequences if she demonstrates against soldiers. "

Ahhhh, the masks come off. When they come to take your complacent behind, with or without paying as much as lip service to any sort of law, there will be nobody left to demonstrate. You have revealed yourself, buddy.

When we finally manage to save this suicidal country from itself, it will be despite people like you. In the meantime, go vote for Tzipi Livni, the Facebook Warrior Princess. Liiiike!

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RickyB
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Plus, of course, Hannibal is arguing as though the border police thug saw Ms. Henochowitz, said to himself "hey, she's an exchange student, she needs to be shot for the temerity of misusing her visa".

Oh, oops, sorry - he's not even pretending that anymore. He's flat out saying that anyone who dares to protest the actions of the volk's armed forces deserves to be shot in the eye.

Why don't you buy yourself a Beitar scarf to go along with your newly revealed regard for civil rights, bubba?

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Hannibal
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Why don't I ? because you completely misunderstood me , developed your own version of realism with regard to what I said, and then once everything was perfectly fitted to your pre-made presuppositions you ridiculed me as if I have the intelligence of a 5 year old.

It is so much fun talking to you , when all you introduce are negatory remarks and bad atmosphere.

"If I recall correctly, she was on the Palestinian side of Kalandia checkpoint"

Was she stamped? in the border between Israel and the palesitnian authority, was her passport stamped? I doubt it -- hence she never left Israel, and demonstrated against soldiers.

"Ahhhh, the masks come off."
The one of us who revealed his mask is you and not me. You wait until I make some sort of statement that you can twist into your own frame of thinking with regard to who I am and what I represent and then you repeatedly draw a bunch of ready arguments at me which are the same again and again. I should have bet a 100 dollars that you would start with this verbal attack on me, next time I will be smarter, but I know no one will dare bet against me.

I did not say I am against democracy or demonstrations or anything even remotely close to that.
I will try very hard to phrase myself now, I will even start it in a new line to make things easier :
I said that if you go willingly into a place where there happens to be a demonstration that's gone bad, and crowd control methods are used to restrain the demonstrators. And then knowing that the current situation is as it is you choose to stay and take part in the demonstration, thus subjecting yourself to whatever crowd control methods, don't be surprised if a tear gas grenade lands on your eye. You can demonstrate all you want with whomever you want in a quieter legalized demonstration in Rabin square for instance.

I further said that as a tourist, it is expected that just as you would want the host to show good manners to you, the host expects you not to take advantage of his hospitality. Taking advantage of a student visa in order to demonstrate against soldiers is a perfect example of taking advantage of the hospitality of your host.

@Tom, let me say this : I don't think even Ricky will argue with me that American police uses force much more often than the Israeli police.

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RickyB
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"she can be a fully fledged Israeli citizen for all I care and still suffer the same consequences if she demonstrates against soldiers."

I'm sorry, should I put this down to your problems with English? Cause from where I'm sitting, it's pretty straight-forward: "If you demonstrate against soldiers, even if you're a full fledged citizen, you deserve to get shot".

"Was she stamped? in the border between Israel and the palesitnian authority, was her passport stamped? I doubt it -- hence she never left Israel, and demonstrated against soldiers."

Seeing as THERE IS NO ACTUAL BORDER CROSSING, BUT ONLY A SECURITY CHECKPOINT, AND NO-ONE STAMPS YOUR PASSPORT WHEN YOU PASS, the answer is no.

"I said that if you go willingly into a place where there happens to be a demonstration that's gone bad, and crowd control methods are used to restrain the demonstrators. And then knowing that the current situation is as it is you choose to stay and take part in the demonstration, thus subjecting yourself to whatever crowd control methods, don't be surprised if a tear gas grenade lands on your eye. You can demonstrate all you want with whomever you want in a quieter legalized demonstration in Rabin square for instance."

Ah, so unless you're a prophet, don't demonstrate at all, and definitely not where actual injustice is taking place. I'm sorry, I don't want to mis-characterize your positions, but you seem to have a rather convoluted notion of what protest is all about.

"demonstration gone bad". And it never occurs to you that they "go bad" because the authorities "make them go bad".

When they come to take you, no-one will be left to demonstrate because by then it won't be "quiet" or safe. But of course, you think I'm just being shrill and hyperbolic... Like I said, despite you and your ilk. We won't even expect your thanks. We're doing it for us and our kids, anyway. Not you.

"Taking advantage of a student visa in order to demonstrate against soldiers is a perfect example of taking advantage of the hospitality of your host."

And all the people who went to Spain to fight against Franco? They should TOTALLY be ashamed of themselves...

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Hannibal
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"Seeing as THERE IS NO ACTUAL BORDER CROSSING, BUT ONLY A SECURITY CHECKPOINT, AND NO-ONE STAMPS YOUR PASSPORT WHEN YOU PASS, the answer is no. "

Yes I know [Smile] , I was hoping you say this, isn't this funny?

"Ah, so unless you're a prophet..." One does not have to be a prophet in order to assume what will happen in that particular type of demonstrations. In fact, one might be a fool if one does not expect crowd control instruments to be used in these demonstrations.

"And it never occurs to you that they "go bad" because the authorities "make them go bad""

It had occurred, and it had also occurred to me that many of the demonstrators throw stones and stuff and all in all the situation is not black or white.

"When they come to take you, no-one will be left to demonstrate"
Who is they? If Israel will deteriorate to the situation where Muslim/Arab armies will "come to me" I am sure nobody will demonstrate. Oh, you meant the Israeli police come to me?

"And all the people who went to Spain to fight against Franco? They should TOTALLY be ashamed of themselves... "

...
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests ...
...

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RickyB
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"Yes I know [Smile] , I was hoping you say this, isn't this funny?"

Like I said. You have no intention of respecting the autonomy of the Paltustanian Authority at all. Not now, not when there's "peace".

"It had occurred, and it had also occurred to me that many of the demonstrators throw stones and stuff and all in all the situation is not black or white."

Ya see, bubba, here's the difference: I've been to many of these demonstrations. You've never been. It's actually amazing that most of the time, even when there are rocks, the rocks come from the side or from behind, and yet the soldiers will invariably fire gas and rubber at the procession itself, from which nothing is ever thrown.

"Oh, you meant the Israeli police come to me?"

Yes, genius. If the settlers and nationalists get their way, you too will be deemed "on the wrong side", for your secular ways if nothing else.

Cute use of the Chewbaca defense meme, but where do you draw the line? When is, and when isn't it "fair" to come to a country to protest its behavior? In Spain they actually took up arms. Emily Henochowitz did no such thing. She stood there, throwing rocks at no-one, and was shot contrary to the IDF's own laws.

"One does not have to be a prophet in order to assume what will happen in that particular type of demonstrations. In fact, one might be a fool if one does not expect crowd control instruments to be used in these demonstrations."

Sorry, I missed this. So here's the dynamic: Military illegally escalates the violence used to suppress protest, and it follows from this that one should know that this would happen, and refrain from protesting in the first place. I find this to be a very authoritarian way of thinking.

[ June 07, 2010, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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Hannibal
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"I've been to many of these demonstrations. You've never been."

I don't see what Israelis have to do in these demonstrations. I understand why the Palestinians demonstrate of course, however I don't understand why Israelis try to help Palestinians.

"Yes, genius. If the settlers and nationalists get their way..."
Dough! you missed my below-the-belt strike at what will happen to Israel if we let you run things. Or maybe you are anticipating I will write this and are aiming to retaliate the same way I did with you?

"She stood there, throwing rocks at no-one, and was shot contrary to the IDF's own laws. "

I don't know what happened there. You don't know, I will even go further and say that She does not know and even the soldier who hit here does not know. Because the entire situation was an ugly mess.

further stressing the issue of "was shot contrary to IDF's own laws" I never used the tear gas grenade launcher in my army service, but from my level of understanding the weapon's aim is pretty "random". Other than going in the relative direction of the barrel I seriously doubt you can aim with it to hit such a small target as the human eye.

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RickyB
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"I don't see what Israelis have to do in these demonstrations. I understand why the Palestinians demonstrate of course, however I don't understand why Israelis try to help Palestinians."

And this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury of public opinion, is someone who claims to be against the occupation and in favor of two states. But he doesn't understand why he should be demonstrating for it. It only matters to the Palestinians. He himself is fine either way...

"Dough! you missed my below-the-belt strike at what will happen to Israel if we let you run things. Or maybe you are anticipating I will write this and are aiming to retaliate the same way I did with you?"

Thing is, it is exactly people like you who are running things now - and look at the stellar state of affairs!

"I don't know what happened there. You don't know, I will even go further and say that She does not know and even the soldier who hit here does not know. Because the entire situation was an ugly mess."

Oh, it's all so complicated, such a mess. Lets not think about it, definitely not learn any lessons from it... fock it! Lets go catch the Pixies! (ooops, canceled.) well, then, the Gorillas! (uh...) The Klaxons! (...) Elvis Costello! (Damn!) Oh well, at least there's Elton John. He gone and blown all his money on trinkets again, so he can't afford to cancel.

And finally...

"further stressing the issue of "was shot contrary to IDF's own laws" I never used the tear gas grenade launcher in my army service, but from my level of understanding the weapon's aim is pretty "random". Other than going in the relative direction of the barrel I seriously doubt you can aim with it to hit such a small target as the human eye."

The point is that if you fire it in a trajectory, the chances of it hitting the front of the skull directly as it did here are very, very minute. If you fire it straight on (כינון ישיר) as you do a rifle, the chances of this grow significantly. I have personally witnessed Border Police thugs ordering their subordinates to fire gas with direct targeting.

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Pete at Home
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Hannibal, someone on a student Visa in the US has every right to take place in a peaceful protest against the US Army. Freedom to Assemble is not limited to US citizens, and there is no special "protesters' visa."

While I was at BYU, the heart and soul of culturally conservative "honor the law" values and all that stuff, professors and students, including folks on student visas, went to protest the US Army's illegal and coercive use of Native American lands for Nuclear testing. No rubber bullets in eye sockets. No judges whoring their office to cover up for the army. What happened here is dispicable, even from the point of view of an ally and well-wisher. I will be very surprised and disappointed if even Noel defends you on this.

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Hannibal
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"And this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury of public opinion, is someone who claims to be against the occupation and in favor of two states. But he doesn't understand why he should be demonstrating for it. It only matters to the Palestinians. He himself is fine either way... "

I must be very bad at this, because you again comepletly misunderstood me.

I did not say that the occupation should be continued. And I even support in ending it as soon as possible. I just dont endorse Israelis protesting side by side with the palestinians.

The palestinians had many opportunities to establish their own state and they did not go the length they were required to go.

"Thing is, it is exactly people like you who are running things now -"

Yes EXACTLY like me... I voted for a religious right wing government... sure, keep on placing me in your pre made boxes.

"The point is that if you fire it in a trajectory...."

No, the point is that if you fixate the weapon with clamps and fire it a hundred different times with the same angle calibration the granade will land in a hundred different places.

@Pete. I appreciate your support on other cases, but honestly I dont care.

****tards from all over the world feel like they can come to Israel and preach us about our wrong doings and how we should fix our things. well woop dee doo for them. They have no idea whats actucally going on. Why didnt that woman go and protest against not letting women go to schools in saudi Arabia? or against gay rights in Egypt, or against a GAZILLION different much more critical things that kill much more people per day that happen in the countries surrounding Israel? Because these ****tards don't realy want to fix things and make them right, they either want Israel destroyed for some sort of a sick reason or they are just hooligan anarchists who welcome the opportunity to fight.

If you go and throw rocks at soldiers, they are not going to check your passport, or if you are circumsized, or any other thing, they are going to use their tools which are not friendly, and you are going to get hurt.

Israel is far less brutal in this manner than many other countries in the world, including the most liberal western countries there are.

I don't care, and I am not sorry. Tough luck for her losing her eye, I am sure nobody planned this to happen, but with all due respect, dont throw stones at soldiers. dont even throw stones on the air next to other people who do throw stones at soldiers. It is not a healthy behavior.

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0Megabyte
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You know, your words far too easily remind of places like fascist Italy.

Which is unfortunate. You are defending even something despicable, in a manner that makes you look like a fascist, because the alternative is to admit possible wrongdoing.

[ June 07, 2010, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: 0Megabyte ]

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RickyB
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"I did not say that the occupation should be continued. And I even support in ending it as soon as possible. I just dont endorse Israelis protesting side by side with the palestinians."

LOL. Me? I protest with whoever is in the right. I care about justice. You care about tribal score keeping.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
****tards from all over the world feel like they can come to Israel and preach us about our wrong doings and how we should fix our things. well woop dee doo for them.
Sadistic police abuses and overreaction happen all over the world. It's dispicable when it happens in the USA, and it's dispicable when it happens in Israel. If you want to come to America on a student visa and protest some of problems in my country (and we have many) that is your right.

quote:
Why didnt that woman go and protest against not letting women go to schools in saudi Arabia? or against gay rights in Egypt
Are you really so satisfied to measure your country's ethics against Saudi Arabia or Egypt? Because I think better of Israel than that. In some respects, America could and should learn from your humanitarian responses. In other respects, you should learn from us, or from others. Don't use cultural vanity as a cloak for atrocity.
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RickyB
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"Yes EXACTLY like me... I voted for a religious right wing government... sure, keep on placing me in your pre made boxes."

No, you didn't vote for them, but you rally around them, because all gods forbid you should stand by those who are wronged against your own people. They at least do it out of conviction. You're just a weak enabler.

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Hannibal
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So, its ++ to the number of people in this forum who now call me fascist?


@Pete, that woman did not take part in a peacefull demonstration.

Those demonstrations are nothing but civilized and peacefull. Its like that for years and EVERYONE who goes to these demonstrations KNOW IT.

I know that an exchange student can demonstrate peacefully in israel WHEN/WHERE ever. The point was that it is NOT a peacefull demonstration.

Do you want to start delve into what is considered a legal demonstration and what is an illegal gathering under Israeli law? I am sure it is not that different than American law.


"No, you didn't vote for them, but you rally around them"

No, I dont rally around them, I hate them and I am very much against them. I just hate the Palestinians aswell.

* I hate the religious right wingers, they wish to destroy Israel and make it some sort of a facist state (מדינה אמונית -- translate this)
* I Hate the ultra orthodox jews, the wish to destroy Israel by making it an Halachaik state, or by simply lazying and dumbing it to destruction
* I hate the Palestinians because, with all due respect to their rights for self determination, they still work more for the end goal of destroying Israel and not for establishing a country for themselves

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Pete at Home
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"The point was that it is NOT a peacefull demonstration."

Ah, well if she was taking part in a violent riot, then that would change the equasion considerably. Can you source that?

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Pete at Home
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Nevertheless, if an Israeli came to the US and was struck in the face and blinded by a police projectile, arguably misused in violation of humanitarian law, I would expect Israel's diplomatic corp to demand an explanation.
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The Drake
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The IDF was using tear gas, which is supposed to be non-lethal. Just like firing wooden or rubber bullets, the whole point is to avoid injuring people because it is impossible to pinpoint which protesters turned violent and who are simply innocent bystanders. Or do you support just mowing them all down, like the British did in Amritsar?

Point being, even members of the crowd turned violent, it doesn't mean that the girl in question was acting with violence or that she knew in advance that the protest would be violent.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by The Drake:
The IDF was using tear gas, which is supposed to be non-lethal. Just like firing wooden or rubber bullets, the whole point is to avoid injuring people because it is impossible to pinpoint which protesters turned violent and who are simply innocent bystanders. Or do you support just mowing them all down, like the British did in Amritsar?

Not sure who you are addressing.

Tear gas is supposed to be illegal ... generally true, depending on who is doing the supposing. Those who write the guidelines for police to use tear gas, probably suppose that it will be used in non-lethal means. But sadistic officers may be using these in a manner intended to cause harm. Hopefully, if this is true, folks will eventually use their cell phones to capture such offenses on video.

[ June 07, 2010, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
With All Due Respect (Capital Intended)...
She came to Israel as an EXCHANGE STUDENT and miss used her VISA to demonstrate in an IDF checkpoints.

Enough with the grovelness and need for explaining. When one goes and demonstrates against soldiers one puts himself in a risk.

I want to see what will happen to an Israeli student who miss uses his VISA in the states in order to demonstrate against the US Police or Army. Since repeated cases of such incidents happened in the past I dont need to guess what would have happend. I know that the Americans would simply break every bone in his body.

Because Israelis are barbarians who repeatedly conduct an excessive use of force while the Americans are professionaly doing their job.

You are an exchange student? be an exchange student, demonstrating against IDF soldiers is not part of your VISA.

Hannibal, she's an Israeli citizen:

quote:
Henochowicz's father, a doctor, is originally from Israel and she also has Israeli citizenship
-----------

quote:
Originally posted by noel:
Pete,

I just took another look at that AP photo.

Did you notice the "Free Palestine" (in English) billboard in the background, while the AP photographer, and a "Palestinian woman", position the 22 year old as a propaganda prop, while she bleeds all over herself. The humanitarian thing for that woman to have done would have been to cut the histrionics short, and get the girl to a hospital.

There is more despicable in this photo than first meets the eye.

Was the pun unintentional or do you actually mean more dispicable for her to make sure it was documented before getting treatment, than it was for IDF to actually shoot the canister directly into her eye rather than to use trajectory as required by humanitarian regulation?

The article says that she got treatment in the USA. And given the location and nature of the protest, it's likely that the subtle presence of the "free Palestine" poster is incidental.

[ June 07, 2010, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Michelle
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RickyB ain't as catchy as Tokyo Rose.

Good grief, find peace already.

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Pete at Home
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Both sides need to get a grip here. Hannibal is not a "fascist" for giving IDF the benefit of the doubt with regard to the trajectory issue, in absence of clear evidence that they did fire directly. (Even though I suspect he is wrong about the facts). And RickyB ain't Tokyo Rose.
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Michelle
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The thing is, I don't usually express myself in Ricky's threads, but I do take the time to read his articles.

I didn't appreciate when while back he linked to a gruesome story of sexual assault by Israel soldiers on philistine women. labeling the link, ENJOY.

Don't insult my intelligence. There's nothing enjoyable about the brutality that goes on between the Israelite and the Palestine.

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Pete at Home
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That fact would justify you calling Ricky a morbid momma-sporking pyro-bator, but not "Tokyo Rose."
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noel
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Pete,

quote:
Was the pun unintentional or do you actually mean more dispicable for her to make sure it was documented before getting treatment, than it was for IDF to actually shoot the canister directly into her eye rather than to use trajectory as required by humanitarian regulation?
There is absolutely no pun intended, and it is intention that is pivotal to this entire story.

The victim was almost certainly not "documenting" the fact that her eye was put out. The evidence is fairly durable on that count in any case. Genuine "documentation" on the part of AP, demonstrating police intent, would have captured evidence relating to the range at which this cannister was fired. You do not know what the trajectory was, and I do not see a photo which even permits an objective interpretation of events. It would have been the common sense thing for the AP photographer to do... if truth was the primary objective.

quote:
The article says that she got treatment in the USA.
I am uncertain what you mean (I hope). You are not saying that there was no real rush to get medical care are you?

While you think the billboard, and it's message, is coincidental, I do not. What part of, the hypothetically "occupied Palestine" does not include Israel? The message in this piece of propaganda is genocide... of Jews.

This story smells, and I trust so-called "Palestinians" much less than you trust Israeli police.

[ June 08, 2010, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: noel ]

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Pete at Home
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Setting aside the argument about the facts, noel and Hannibal, would you agree that IF the police had indeed fired the tear gas directly into her face, rather than in the require trajectory, that this would be abusive under the circumstances?
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Pete at Home
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Noel, setting aside your dubious translation of a "free Palestine" poster, how do you construe forced evacuation of Israelis as "genocide" but not construe forced evacuation of Palestinians as "genocide"?
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Pete at Home
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Now this lady would be a Tokyo Rose if she was Israeli.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10259646.stm

She also looks like Mr Bean's mom [Big Grin]

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noel
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Pete,

quote:
noel and Hannibal, would you agree that IF the police had indeed fired the tear gas directly into her face, rather than in the require trajectory, that this would be abusive under the circumstances?
Speaking for myself, absolutely!

quote:
Noel, setting aside your dubious translation of a "free Palestine" poster, how do you construe forced evacuation of Israelis as "genocide" but not construe forced evacuation of Palestinians as "genocide"?
Pete, reflect seriously, what do you think the billboard means?

"Forced evacuation" of Israelis to where?

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RickyB
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"RickyB ain't as catchy as Tokyo Rose.

Good grief, find peace already. "

Michelle also ain't as catchy as John Hagee, Rush Limbaugh or Pam Geller, but we all appreciate how hard you're trying. In the meantime, get thee to a reading comprehension class. The woman the CoS's bodyguard raped? In my article you claimed you read? She was Jewish Israeli, not Palestinian, and Philistines have been extinct for almost 3,000 years. In fact I believe the very issuee of the victim's extraction was discussed right here, but once you've made up your mind, you seem quite impervious to the facts. Oh, and it's hard to insult something when there's no discernible proof it exists.

"Hannibal is not a "fascist" for giving IDF the benefit of the doubt with regard to the trajectory issue, in absence of clear evidence that they did fire directly."

No, he's a fascist for saying that anyone demonstrating against soldiers deserves to get shot.

"Free Palestine" is now about genocide? In what universe? Especially if you take "Palestine" to mean the proposed Palestinian state ALONGSIDE Israel. Absent proof that it doesn't, it's not even about ending the political existence of Israel.

As for Helen Thomas - she just lost her marbles. Sad ending to a brilliant and courageous career. I mean, who is she to talk? Shouldn't she also return to Europe and return the land stolen from the Potomac nation? [Razz]

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noel
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Ricky,

quote:
"Free Palestine" is now about genocide? In what universe?
This one. Visit us if you get a chance.

quote:
Especially if you take "Palestine" to mean the proposed Palestinian state ALONGSIDE Israel.
What matters is what "Palestinians" take "Palestine" to mean. Have they ever shown you the map?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/94461

quote:
As for Helen Thomas - she just lost her marbles. Sad ending to a brilliant and courageous career.
Ricky, your admiration is telling, and so predictable. She actually reminds me of you, but you are probably prettier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQcQdWBqt14

quote:
Shouldn't she also return to Europe and return the land stolen from the Potomac nation?
No that would be Lebanon which she should return to.

http://www.americanswhotellthetruth.org/pgs/portraits/Helen_Thomas.php

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RickyB
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Some Palestinians want it all, some are willing to settle for the WB and Gaza. Even most of the ones who want it all don't want to evacuate anyone - they just want all the land currently controlled by Israel (plus the Gaza Strip) to be one political unit with everyone living in it having equal rights. Only Hamas talks about "anyone who came after 1917" having to leave, and even they know that ain't happening, and are willing to take the '67 borders in exchange for a long term cease-fire.

Oh, and INN is the organ of the far right in Israel. You don't wanna rely on their slant of things.... Actually, YOU probably do. The person actually seeking to learn to issue from all sides doesn't.

"No that would be Lebanon which she should return to."

Whichever. Point stands.

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Hannibal
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"they just want all the land currently controlled by Israel (plus the Gaza Strip) to be one political unit with everyone living in it having equal rights."

Translation : They want Israel to become an arabic state, Israel will be destroyed and like in all of the arab countries such as Syria, Egypt, Saudi arabia, everyone living will enjoy equal rights.

"willing to take the '67 borders in exchange for a long term cease-fire."

We thank them from the buttom of our hearts

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Michelle
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quote:
Michelle also ain't as catchy as John Hagee, Rush Limbaugh or Pam Geller, but we all appreciate how hard you're trying. In the meantime, get thee to a reading comprehension class. The woman the CoS's bodyguard raped? In my article you claimed you read? She was Jewish Israeli, not Palestinian, and Philistines have been extinct for almost 3,000 years. In fact I believe the very issuee of the victim's extraction was discussed right here, but once you've made up your mind, you seem quite impervious to the facts. Oh, and it's hard to insult something when there's no discernible proof it exists.
1. I'm not a Rush Limbaugh fan. I usually don't waste my time with his type of commentary. I know John Haggee by name only, never heard of Pam Geller.

2. I could use a reading comprehensive class, Captain Obvious.

3. You are deflecting...it wasn't the details of the article, it was the fact you link and label such atrocities as enjoyable. I admit, I don't remember the details of the article, but I do remember it was graphic, and emotionally disturbing. Your flippant presentation of your own material, provokes me to believe you are deliberately attempting to high jack my emotions, as a reader. It's cruel, because I do care deeply. The subtle sub-text of "kill off any sympathy for jews' is always lurking. You, yourself, distract from the victims.

[ June 08, 2010, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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DonaldD
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Michelle, the article in question was written by Ricky, and whenever he posts a link to his articles on Ornery, he always introduces them with that one word link: "Enjoy"

Enjoy!
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
Enjoy!

The word 'enjoy' has nothing to do with the content of what he is writing about, and everything to do with his self-perceived literary stylings ("look what I made, Mommy!") [Razz] Basically, you're obsessing over nothing. It wasn't like he was suggesting you enjoy a nice, cozy story about rape, or that the middle east conflicts are in any way 'enjoyable'. For you to write the following
quote:
Don't insult my intelligence. There's nothing enjoyable about the brutality that goes on between the Israelite and the Palestine
requires an almost concerted effort to ignore context.
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