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Author Topic: UN and Israel.
Everard
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http://www.uahc.org/rjmag/02winter/outcast.shtml
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Cedrios
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quote:
THE UN'S OUTCAST: WHY IS ISRAEL TREATED DIFFERENTLY THAN ALL OTHER NATIONS?


Because they have disregarded and disobeyed more UN resolutions relating to them and conditions for their statehood than any other nation on earth. I don't even see why they should get to have an OBSERVER in the UN, let alone be a member when they STILL have not peacefully re-incoorpoated the Palestinians into their society. Yes, I know, its tough, really tough. Some Palestians even don't want it period. But if Israel gets their nation handed to them, then maybe they can work through this dilemma.

[This message has been edited by Cedrios (edited November 07, 2002).]


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Everard
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Ced-
I KNEW you wouldn't understand that article. There is a very simple question to ask about the post you just made, but you are so biased against israel you probably don't even know what the question that totally buries your remark is.

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maniacal_engineer
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why is isreal castiagetd for not integrating hostile foriegn nationals into itself, but Jordan, Syria, lebanon and egypt are not castigated for not integrating their former nationals back into themselves? There are still refugee camps in these countries 40 years later, even though the displaced palestinians were jordanians or lebanese or whatever pre-1967.
whatever isreal's flaws, they dont compare to arafat's.
I have to go with with ev the commie scum on this one - there is no moral equivalency, and even if there were, how do you explain the dearth of resolutions against syria, the sudan, etc.

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Cedrios
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because Israel displaced ALL of those refugees.
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Everard
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And offered ALL of them citizenship.
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maniacal_engineer
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ced,
isreal displaced them in a war of self defense. its neighbors were arrayed against it and isreal kicked their butts. The alternative was a nice condo in the medeteranean (sp?) but the jordanians displaced form the west bank are not allowed to integrate into jordan - they still live in camps. If their own people reject and shun them, why should isreal embrace them. If my wife wont hug her mom, why should I hug my mother in law?

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Cedrios
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me, it can't be a war of self-defense when they chose to live i9n what they knew would be a hotly-disputed terrtory.
also, Israel has never offered them territory for a self-governed state, what the manu UN resolutions they disregard ask them to do.

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Cedrios
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Ev, I am not biased against Israel, there was a time when they were working toward peace, then Rabin got killed and ever since mindless far-right zealots have run the government and EXPANDED the territories.
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maniacal_engineer
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quote:
Israel has never offered them territory for a self-governed state,

what was that whole clinton legacy/ oslo thing that happened a while back?
Just because you dont like the terms that attended the offer doesn't mean the offer wasn't genuine or feasible. arafat took the fact that isreal was negotiating as a sign of weakness and reignited the intifada.
By all rights and international precedent the land is israel's (finally spelling it right)
they wone it fair and square, defending themselves in a war of agression. I hink they should work something out, just as the US relinquished the phillipines after some 50 years or so.
until I see jews sitting in a freely elected parliment in a constitutional democracy in an arab state, I WILLL NOT accept that there is any moral equivalence. (thats 3 count em three capital L's - that is a lot of will buddy )

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Baldar
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While Ced has some points, the key to understanding a great deal of this is that Israel, unlike any other place in the middle east is a democracy, even Israeli Palestinians can vote.

When Israel did come into itself as a nation, it did purposely terrorize the Palestinians into leaving their land. However, just as many left to join the military in a cause to wipe the foreign element of jews from their land. The Palestinian mistake was in thinking they ever had a remote chance (even on its first days, Israeli soldiers were battle hardened veterans from WWII and the memory of the Holocaust was still a strong unifying force in their minds.

The UN has become a sounding board of a number or pluarility of Arab countries with undenying hostility to the artifical country set up in their midst (forgetting their own countries are just as artificial), so the UN has generally responded to that third world plurality by overlooking terrorist activity on one side of the coin and magnifying the activities of Israel (some of it dealing in collective punishment which is illegal).

Frankly I don't trust the corrupt Palestinians and neither does Israel (can you blame them?). If Palestine were really serious about peace, none of this inept attempt at provoking a much stronger country would have come about.

The UN is ineffectual anyway, so why worry?


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Cedrios
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M.E., so what if the Palestinians don't like it? tough, Israel has to bring them around somehow, or maybe they shouldn't have that land. Seriously, we gave it to them, subsidize their economy incredibly, and they can't even manage some hard work in foreign relations. If they can't keep their own people from not being stupid and act grateful and STOP occupying those territories, then I feel NO sympathy for them. All Arafat wants is the occupied territories back, but they won't even do THAT, the way COUNTLESS UN res.s have suggested they do.

1. Israel shoudl be grateful because they were given the land by US and Great Britain.

2. As Israel keeps treating the Palestinians bad, the Pal. will begin to terrorize the US in response to our continuous role in supporting Israel no matter what they do.

3. US suffers because of Israeli inneptitude concerning foreign relations.

[This message has been edited by Cedrios (edited November 07, 2002).]


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Elimis
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Cedrios:

quote:
Ev, I am not biased against Israel, there was a time when they were working toward peace, then Rabin got killed and ever since mindless far-right zealots have run the government and EXPANDED the territories.

But that dosen't really affect the article does it? After all the article deals with the UN not Israeli leaders. So whether you like Israel or not should not matter... the fact is you still have not disproven anything in the article.

Elimis


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Cedrios
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Elimis, its not the UN's fault that before Israel was officially formed, a condition the UN wanted met was that Israel would somehow(this is where the effort falls on Israel's head) peacefully work with the Palestinians to get a seperate, independant state. It natural that the UN would get angry as Israel becomes more and more expansionist, even taking away the little land they had granted to the Palestinians, and then occupying the remaining territories after that. Israel has brought any anti-Israel sentiment that may be in the UN on its own head.

Personally, I think because anti-semitism was such a problem, that anytime anyone has a problem with Israel, its viewed automatically as anti-semitism, and even if the grudge is a valid one, its just bad to dislike Israel no matter what they do.

as to the Palestinians making it impossible, BS, if Israel tried hard enough and gave the territories they took back (land for peace, as has been offered by Arafat for 10 years now) then everything would be ok) Do you have ANY idea why the ISraeli coalition government just collapsed? It was over funding the territories because a lot of moderate Israelis believe they should PULL OUT OF THEM.

The article discusses actions by Israel that were atrocious and tries to make the assumption that everyone should have been "ok" with them.

[This message has been edited by Cedrios (edited November 07, 2002).]


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seagull
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quote:
Ornery’s outcast: Why Cedrios is treated differently that all other posters

Because he has disagreed with most ornery members and has been consistently out posted and proven wrong on every count! I don't even see why he should get to be an OBSERVER in ornery, let alone have posting privileges, when he STILL has not peacefully incorporated the ornery values into his mind. Yes, I know, its tough, really tough. Some Ornerians even don't want him around period. But if Cedrios gets his membership handed to him, then maybe he can work through this dilemma.

NOTE: in case you haven’t noticed, this is a satirical post. I do NOT mean it. In fact I am not even sure what it means. I just put it out there to provoke some thoughts on perspective.


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Pete at Home
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quote:
Ev, I am not biased against Israel, there was a time when they were working toward peace

Which many Palestinians rejected with an historic escalation of cold-blooded terrorist attacks, effectively colluding with the Israeli ultra-right. Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and Hezbollah made sure that Israel understood that they could not exchange land for peace, but only land for fleeting international approval. Thus the only peace that there will ever be in the Middle East will be in the brutally realistic Arabic meaning of Salam: a peace established unilaterally with the sword; the vanquished kneeling before the victor, the victor dictating terms that are magnanimous, but not subject to argument.

From the way that TomD & others here talk, you'd think that WWII was settled by Hitler, Rosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill all sitting-down to a Kum-ba-ya love-in. Fact is that this sort of problem has usually, if not always, been resolved by force.

[This message has been edited by Pete at Home (edited November 13, 2002).]


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Grant Morgan
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"Israel shoudl be grateful because they were given the land by US and Great Britain."

There's nothing wrong with not understanding history. But you ought to at least give it a shot if you're going to use history as evidence for your arguments.

You might be able to say that Israel should be grateful because they were granted the status of an independent nation. They were NEVER, however, given land by anyone. Large numbers of Jews had been living in Palestine for decades before the creation of Israel, on land that was legally purchased.

"It natural that the UN would get angry as Israel becomes more and more expansionist, even taking away the little land they had granted to the Palestinians, and then occupying the remaining territories after that."

But Israel seized this land while defending itself from a war of aggression. Maybe the nice, neighborly thing to do would be to give it all back . . . but if you're claiming that Israel doesn't have the right to keep this land, we might as well throw out every map we have. What nation's modern borders haven't been defined by this process?


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Cedrios
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Seagull, since its obvious that I don't disagree with everyone over everything, your little attempt at perspective is obviously nothing more than an insult. You used absolute, qualifying language, which requires me to show one example where someone DID agree with me, and its obvious you are just spewing trash. As to disproving what I say, I think its funny NOONE is addressing the point that the arabs will take their frustrations out on us because Israel can't even handle a less than a million people?! thats why the situation is not comparable to WW2. COME ON PEOPLE, this is the PLO we're talking about here, not the Japanese Empire, or the 3rd Reich! don't be ridiculous!
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Everard
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Of course, since the PLO STILL claims genocide is the correct response...they're fairly comparable to the nazi party.
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Cedrios
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come on, we're talking about numbers. the PLO is not a imposing army and airforce!
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maniacal_engineer
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so ced, does that mean if you are evil but have no means to carry out atrocities you arent really evil? the KKK had no airforce or army, just crosses and gasoline and rope, and the blind eye of some white judges.
but it doesn't mean that they arent evil and it doesnt mean that they shouldnt be identified as such and stopped.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Because they have disregarded and disobeyed more UN resolutions relating to them and conditions for their statehood than any other nation on earth.

That statement is as ludicrous as it is true, Ced. Israel has had more UN resolutions relating to them and conditions put on their statehood than any other nation. Thus, how can it be a reasonable comparison? I am sorry, but you are reasoning like a lefty. If you wanted to make a meaningful statement, then you could speak in terms of percentages of resolutions and conditions followed.


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seagull
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Ev:
quote:
There is a very simple question to ask about the post you just made

I think I know what the question is. And you claim that you KNEW ahead of time that Ced would not understand the article. So I am wondering what your game is. Are you going to post it? Or are you going to quibble with him over whether the PLO is a real threat? You can totally bury him with one question and you chose to compare the PLO to the Nazi party instead. Why are you holding back?

If you are going to quibble about the PLO you may want to point out to him that it took only a few well trained terrorists with no army or airforce to bring down Wall street (literally for a few days) and that when the Arabs want take their frustrations out on us (regardless of their reasons) terrorists trained by the PLO will be spearheading the effort regardless of whether Israel still exists.

But then doing that will only make Ced more of an outcast on this thread, wouldn’t it?
I almost feel sorry for him – almost.


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seagull
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To paraphrase again (this is not really a quote):

quote:
All Israel wants is for the Palestinians to give up the fight (like the American Indians and many other nations did when they lost wars). But Ced won't even agree to THAT, the way COUNTLESS ornerian posts have suggested he should.

I wonder if Ced even knows how to count as high as 88 or 400? I suspect that he does, but if he didn’t that could explain why he considers such numbers synonymous with “countless”. Considering the alternative, I think I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. I am willing to bet that there are more than 400 pro-Israel responses on Ornery to show him the error of his ways. And he still refuses to change.

If Ced refuses to change in spite of all the criticism against him here on ornery, what is wrong with Israel refusing to change in spite of all the criticism against it in the UN?

Once again, before you flame me for being rude or report me to the moderators, please note that I am being purposely facetious and satirical. Now if you want to flame me anyway, go ahead.


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Baldar
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Come on Seagull, as long as I am here, you've got coverage.
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Everard
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Seagull-
I choose to not ask the question, because Cedrios is totally irrelevent on this topic. Engaging him in debate is not worthwhile at all. Comparing the PLO to the Nazi party is an easy comparison to make... and probably fairly accurate if you carry out the comparison to several levels.

Anyrate, the question to ask is, simply : Why have their been resolutions directed against Israel? Ced never looks at that issue, and instead just says that israel has ignored them... despite the fact that there are NO resolutions issued against the Palestinians for doing the same thing the Israeli's have done for earning those resolutions, magnified many many times. Despite the fact that Israel has a FAR better humans rights record that the nations voting to condemn Israel in the UN. Despite the fact Israel has done as much as any nation can do to try to legitimize an organization that is intent upon Israel's own destruction.

In other words, the question is, there are many many nations more deserving of condemnation then Israel, including all the nations israel has been at war with for the last 54 years. Why have those nations not been condemned to the extent israel has, when their violations of the same principles are far far worse? Ced can't face that issue, because it will blow up his basic premise.


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Pete at Home
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quote:
If Ced refuses to change in spite of all the criticism against him here on ornery

Seagull, there is a difference between complaining against a person, and complaining against a post, a position, or even an attitude. I'd like to think that the bulk of the criticism that you refer to is criticism of Ced's various claims or his general antisemitic attitude rather than his person.

Cedrios:

quote:
COME ON PEOPLE, this is the PLO we're talking about here, not the Japanese Empire, or the 3rd Reich! don't be ridiculous!

No, Cedrios, we are talking of various factions and sub-factions of the PLO, plus Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad, for a start. The third Reich had far more modest beginnings. The moslem Palestinians carried out Pogroms on the scale of Crystalnact during the early 20th century, and they were allied with the Nazis, AND they continue to brainwash their children with the same texts that the Nazis used to villify the Jews.


quote:
Personally, I think because anti-semitism was such a problem, that anytime anyone has a problem with Israel, its viewed automatically as anti-semitism, and even if the grudge is a valid one, its just bad to dislike Israel no matter what they do.

Not true. Baldar has problems with Israel, and I don't call him anti-semitic. You have established your antisemitic credentials in other conversations that had nothing to do with Israeli policies. And that doesn't mean that I automatically dismiss your views just because you are an anti-semite, either.


maniacal_engineer:

quote:
so ced, does that mean if you are evil but have no means to carry out atrocities you arent really evil? the KKK had no airforce or army, just crosses and gasoline and rope, and the blind eye of some white judges.

I think your language still misses the point. As the KKK demonstrated, gasoline and rope are sufficient to carry out atrocities.


quote:
but it doesn't mean that they arent evil and it doesnt mean that they shouldnt be identified as such and stopped.

Stopped from doing what? If they don't have means to do harm, then there's nothing you can stop them from doing, unless you want to do like the French and burn books in the name of stopping Naziism. (Hitler's got to be laughing in his grave at that one.)


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KenBean
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Hi Guys

Cedrios (sp?) did it again! He gotchaall

Why waste time on reading him anyway? that's why we have scroll thingies on our mice.

Everard:

Pretty unnewsy article. I didn't run across anything I hadn't already known in paraphrase.

Two great novels were written about those early days in Israel. One by a Jew, one by a Gentile (I suppose, but one never knows)

Michner's "The Source"

Uris' "Exodous"

Wouk has filled in a lot of background material also.

Bottom line, to most of the world, Israel is an "Inconvenience" and a living "embarrasment".

Best regards
Ken Bean


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Puretext
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If you want to discuss novels, I thought Ken Follet's Tripple was pretty good.

KB


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maniacal_engineer
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my point is that ced objects to comparing the PLO to the nazis because they dont have an army or airforce. I am well aware that the KKK is evil, and did commit atrocities, inspite of having only limited means. same with the PLO.

I think that it is right of all decent people to identify and fight evil. The KKK qualifies, so does the PLO.


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