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Author Topic: Let them eat cake
cherrypoptart
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> TomDavidson


> Is there any way a member of our "ruling class" might make a suggestion to you, cherry, that you would not interpret as nagging?

It is what it is. There's no way to sugarcoat it.

But the least they could do is pretend that they mean what they say. Even a nag has that much decency, and shows some sincerity. I'm going again back to the clear cut case of Obama nagging us about our thermostats and then turning his up high enough to "grow orchids". That pretty much epitomizes the limousine liberal mentality.

These excuses such as selection bias or confirmation bias seem like the blind man's shotgun approach to defense. Just shoot everywhere at random and hope to hit something, or at least throw up a distraction and hope to scare people away.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Laura Bush's trip was a series of public discussions on education and health care. Not a 5 day trip to a palatial hotel and a cordoned off public beach.

If Michelle Obama had gone to southern Spain to give a speech on childhood obesity and combined it with some local sight seeing, I wouldn't have any problem with it.

So you're saying that First Ladies are only allowed international trips if they are business trips? Domestic vacations are find, but overseas vacations are not allowed?

And if Michelle had combined it with, say, visiting the King and Queen of Spain, that would help? [Wink]

Come on. Visiting Paris in spring, Budapest and Prague is more than just a little sightseeing while doing business. She did a little business while doing sightseeing.

If a 30-minute speech would have justified the entire trip and its expense to you, then it really can't be that bad if she skipped that 30-minute excuse.

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Pete at Home
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Quantify "that bad," Wayward.

I think everyone who has posted here agrees this isn't a huge deal disaster. My position is that it's not that good.

I would love to visit the King of Spain. That would make one hell of a vacation.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I'm going again back to the clear cut case of Obama nagging us about our thermostats and then turning his up high enough to "grow orchids".
77 degrees is, while warmer than I like it, not actually hot enough to grow many orchids. [Smile] Let's recognize a third party's hyperbole when we use it, 'k?
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Wayward Son
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quote:
Quantify "that bad," Wayward.
I dunno. Not worthy of dozens of blogs and conniptions across the internet? [Wink]
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JWatts
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
So you're saying that First Ladies are only allowed international trips if they are business trips? Domestic vacations are find, but overseas vacations are not allowed?

I'm saying, quite clearly and several times now that, ostentatious trips to foreign locations for a first lady during a bad recession are bad PR. When you combine that with the same first lady saying less than a month ago:

"I mean, this is a time to remind America that some of the best beaches in the world are here. And this is probably the best time for people to bring their kids down, the best year, because you do a few things, you get to see a part of the country, you get to help an economic area, and it’s really nice and hot down here."

That adds hypocrisy onto the previous poor PR.

quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
And if Michelle had combined it with, say, visiting the King and Queen of Spain, that would help? [Wink]

Yes, it does actually. I was happy she made an official state visit while she was there, but it hardly makes the entire trip worth it from a tax payer point of view. It just slightly mitigates the cost of the trip. I would have been much happier if she had spent a substantial amount of the time addressing child hood obesity or global warming or any worthwhile topic.

quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
Come on. Visiting Paris in spring, Budapest and Prague is more than just a little sightseeing while doing business. She did a little business while doing sightseeing.

Laura Bush gave public speeches in every destination on education and health care.

quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
If a 30-minute speech would have justified the entire trip and its expense to you, then it really can't be that bad if she skipped that 30-minute excuse.

Laura Bush did a traveling series of public speeches. Michelle Obama went to the beach. One case is, at least a reasonable use of tax payer dollars. The other is pork.
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TomDavidson
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I would argue that they're both pork.
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DonaldD
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Just to note that I did not use the term 'selection bias' but rather 'confirmation bias'...
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Lobo
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Not to get off subject, but this quote from Al struck me as odd:
"Carter's approvals are as high or higher than Reagan's now".

Can you provide a link to back this up? I did a quick search and find Reagan consistently ranked a top 10 president while Carter is mostly in the bottom half...

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Pete at Home
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At,least in the official muslim world. Iran has to be kicking itself for fluffing Reagan at Carter's expense.

Or maybe not. Those who actually read may remember that aq considered Carter's seduction of egtpt into the peace accords as america's principal provocation for 911.

(kick in the ass to the obtuse shlepp that infers that this post criticizes Carter.)

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Al Wessex
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I'm only returning from my thread grave because Lobo asked a direct question. At the end of 2008, Carter was at 64% according to the only poll I looked at, here. There are a number of sites and rankings, with the numbers moving around according to the date and the questions asked. One poll cites Reagan's high popularity based on his "likability" and ranked him tied for the best President "in our lifetimes" *and* tied for the second worst.

[ August 10, 2010, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Al Wessex ]

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Daruma28
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Every single person in this thread pretty much missed the most important event that this trip signified:

Her luxury vacation meant she and her daughter would be thousands of miles away on the President's Birthday.

Just as I suspected, Michelle Obama wears the pants. She's a ballbuster that has emasculated her husband publicly in the past, and taking her daughter on a trip away from her Daddy on his birthday is just the latest evidence that Obama doesn't have the respect admiration and dedication of his own wife.

Weak.

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Aris Katsaris
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Ah, so every family must celebrate birthdays in the exact same way? Baaah, baaah, you're sheeple, etc, etc.
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
Ah, so every family must celebrate birthdays in the exact same way?

Who said that?
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Funean
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She wears the pants because she wasn't in town for her husband's birthday? Being an inconsiderate spouse emasculates one's husband? I had no idea masculinity was so very fragile. I'm pretty sure that if my husband (if I had one) failed to acknowledge my birthday, that would make him an ass, and not affect my femininity one whit.
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Daruma28
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No Fun, it's this combined with other past events taken into consideration. She's demeaned him in public several times now.

And don't tell me it's crazy to have your family plan optional vacations to faraway places around family members events like birthdays is some outlandish expectation.

As a Father, I wouldn't want my wife to take one of my children to a foreign country on an optional trip during my birthday either...

....but than again, it wouldn't even be an issue. My wife actually wouldn't plan anything for herself if it conflicted with mine or any other close family members birthday.

But obviously, Michelle doesn't feel the same way as about her husband and father to her children.

As a husband and a Father, I say that's weak.

And that's not a politically based opinion either.

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TommySama
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"And that's not a politically based opinion either."

The personal is political to you, I thought.

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LetterRip
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Daruma28,

agree that it is odd. There are people that don't put a large focus on birthdays though. Although conforming to others expectations and traditions to appear to be 'mom and apple pie' is often a part of politics.

Also she didn't 'plan it for herself' - the friend had planned it quite some time ago according to the article?

Personally I wouldn't find it a big deal, but different folks find different things to be important.

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Daruma28
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and not affect my femininity one whit.

By the way, I agree with you their. It's not that masculinity is so fragile that it needs to be treated with kid gloves....but rather one of the defining characteristics that most people agree is a defining trait of masculinity is how he manages his relations with his wife or girlfriend. Women's femininity is not judged by the same standard.

When a man demeans a woman in front of other people, they think he's a jerk and an a-hole.

When a woman demeans a man in front of other people, they think he's weak and pathetic.

The criteria for which people assess a man's masculinity and a woman's femininity are not the same.

Most people are uncomfortable in social situations in which a woman humiliates her husband and treats him with utter contempt...

....and he takes it.

Surely you are not unawares of the common contempt most people when they personally encounter the pussywhipped male? Both men and women look on married couples with such a relationship dynamic with pity on the poor, emasculated whipping boy. That certainly puts his "masculinity" in question.

Femininity does not have the same characteristics that people judge a woman by.

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cherrypoptart
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Maybe they only celebrate his real birthday, not the one on his "American" birth certificate.
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Daruma28
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Also she didn't 'plan it for herself' - the friend had planned it quite some time ago according to the article?

Irrelevant...at least in my perspective. And it's not just my own experience either. Just about any happily married couple with children that I know of, such plans would 99% of the time be "Sounds great, but it's my husbands birthday, can we do it some other time?" or some other such variation.

As I said before, it's not as if this is a one-time event. Michelle has been publicly and openly contemptuous of her Husband before in public.

As a husband and a Father, I would NOT stand for it.

No man should.

Your wife is the one woman you show your vulnerability to. The person you would sacrifice your own life for. The person you protect and provide for, because she is the mother of your children and you cherish her above all else.

For her to publicly undermine you is the ultimate disrespect to what it means to be all of that.

Excuse the french hobsen...I really have been trying...

...but **** that ****.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
When a man demeans a woman in front of other people, they think he's a jerk and an a-hole.

When a woman demeans a man in front of other people, they think he's weak and pathetic.

On my part I think both things regardless of the genders involved. The abuser is a jerk and a-hole: The person who tolerates being abused is weak and pathetic. The abuser shouldn't abuse, the abused shouldn't stand for it.

Who are these people who think like you claim, and why should we be sheeple that conform to their views?

quote:
Most people are uncomfortable in social situations in which a woman humiliates her husband and treats him with utter contempt...
....and he takes it.

Nowadays, Daruma, most people feel uncomfortable when they see men humiliate their wives too.

But either way, I still don't get why we should be sheeple that follow other people's expectations of "masculinity" and "femininity".

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Daruma28
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Aris, now you're being obtuse.

Nowadays, Daruma, most people feel uncomfortable when they see men humiliate their wives too.

Of course. But no one even questions the wife's femininity should they witness such a thing.

The same is not true when a man is humiliated by his wife.

That is not "expectations." That is how we are hardwired as human beings. It is intrinsic to who we are.

As for the sheeple thing, you obviously miss the reason why I use that term.

Sheep are herded, branded, culled and controlled by their shepherds. They can be fooled and calmly led to slaughter.

When a person looks upon a man humiliating his wife or a wife humiliating her husband, the reaction to it is instinctual...a visceral, gut level reaction. That has nothing to do with social engineering of the masses.

You think you're being clever in trying to hoist me on my own petard, but your really just pissing in the wind here.

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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
Maybe they only celebrate his real birthday, not the one on his "American" birth certificate.

[LOL]

Clever cherry. Almost missed that.

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cherrypoptart
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[Smile]
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TomDavidson
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quote:
When a woman demeans a man in front of other people, they think he's weak and pathetic.
If you substitute "they" with the word "I," you'll have a true statement.

quote:

As a husband and a Father, I would NOT stand for it.

No man should.

Your wife is the one woman you show your vulnerability to.

I show my vulnerability to lots of people. Why is that a problem?
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Daruma28
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Tom, I'm not playing your game. Taking one part of a quote way out of context and try to belabor the point to sidetrack the issue.

So let's put it back into context:

Your wife is the one woman you show your vulnerability to. The person you would sacrifice your own life for. The person you protect and provide for, because she is the mother of your children and you cherish her above all else.

For her to publicly undermine you is the ultimate disrespect to what it means to be all of that


How long has your wife been publicly undermining you and disrespecting you?

And why do you not see this as a problem?

[Eek!]

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Daruma28
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If you substitute "they" with the word "I," you'll have a true statement.

[LOL]

Are you a social retard?

Common cultural stereotypes exist for a reason.

This is why the pussywhipped male being henpecked by a harridan wife is a stereotype of derision and contempt across all cultures throughout most of human history.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Every single person in this thread pretty much missed the most important event that this trip signified:

Her luxury vacation meant she and her daughter would be thousands of miles away on the President's Birthday.

Just as I suspected, Michelle Obama wears the pants. She's a ballbuster that has emasculated her husband publicly in the past, and taking her daughter on a trip away from her Daddy on his birthday is just the latest evidence that Obama doesn't have the respect admiration and dedication of his own wife.

Weak.

There are other schedules involved in the president's life, Daruma. And the prez was golfing away from family on Fathers' day, so ...
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Every single person in this thread pretty much missed the most important event that this trip signified:

Her luxury vacation meant she and her daughter would be thousands of miles away on the President's Birthday.

Just as I suspected, Michelle Obama wears the pants. She's a ballbuster that has emasculated her husband publicly in the past, and taking her daughter on a trip away from her Daddy on his birthday is just the latest evidence that Obama doesn't have the respect admiration and dedication of his own wife.

Weak.

There are other schedules involved in the president's life, Daruma. And the prez was golfing away from family on Fathers' day, so ...
Oh please Pete. Maybe Daddy wouldn't have been "away golfing" if his wife didn't take his daughter to another country for a luxury vacation rather than celebrate their birthday together as a family.

Again, I'm not saying this based on a single incident, but a pattern of behavior.

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TomDavidson
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For what reason, Daruma, do you believe the cultural stereotype of the henpecked husband exists?

--------

quote:
How long has your wife been publicly undermining you and disrespecting you?

And why do you not see this as a problem?

First off, I'm interested in why you think Michelle Obama has been publicly undermining and disrespecting her husband. What do you think she's done that's been disrespectful, as opposed to playful?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
For what reason, Daruma, do you believe the cultural stereotype of the henpecked husband exists?
For various reasons, one of which for the same reason as the stereotype of the quiet submissive abused woman.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Every single person in this thread pretty much missed the most important event that this trip signified:

Her luxury vacation meant she and her daughter would be thousands of miles away on the President's Birthday.

Just as I suspected, Michelle Obama wears the pants. She's a ballbuster that has emasculated her husband publicly in the past, and taking her daughter on a trip away from her Daddy on his birthday is just the latest evidence that Obama doesn't have the respect admiration and dedication of his own wife.

Weak.

There are other schedules involved in the president's life, Daruma. And the prez was golfing away from family on Fathers' day, so ...
Oh please Pete. Maybe Daddy wouldn't have been "away golfing" if his wife didn't take his daughter to another country for a luxury vacation rather than celebrate their birthday together as a family.

Again, I'm not saying this based on a single incident, but a pattern of behavior.

Daruma, I saw the guy on video, having to restrain himself at the last minute from slapping his wife's ass, affectionately, on camera and in public. That ain't a move that I'd attribute to a submissive henpecked hubby.
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Daruma28
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As Maureen Dowd noted, which caused a sensation during the campaign:

quote:
''And then there's the Barack Obama that lives with me in my house, and that guy's a little less impressive. For some reason this guy still can't manage to put the butter up when he makes toast, secure the bread so that it doesn't get stale, and his 5-year-old is still better at making the bed than he is.''

She said that the TV version of Barack Obama sounded really interesting and that she'd like to meet him sometime.

Many people I talked to afterward found Michelle wondrous. But others worried that her chiding was emasculating, casting her husband -- under fire for lacking experience -- as an undisciplined child.

At a March fund-raiser in New York, she tweaked her husband for not ''putting his socks actually in the dirty clothes.''

And at a lunch last week with Chicago women, she gave the candidate a fed-up look about that melting butter and said, ''I'm like: 'You're just asking for it. You know I'm giving a speech about you today.' ''

She throws in nice stuff, too, about how he's ''the real deal'' and a trustworthy ''brother.'' But this princess of South Chicago, a formidable Princeton and Harvard Law School grad, wants us to know that she's not polishing the pedestal.

The Chicago Tribune profile of ''Barack's Rock'' on Sunday noted that her career had caused her husband discomfort: ''Critics have pointed out that her income has risen along with her husband's political ascent. She sits on the board of a food company that supplies Wal-Mart, which Sen. Obama has denounced for its labor practices.''

The Obamas are both skeptical of hype. Michelle dryly told a reporter at her husband's Senate swearing-in that perhaps someday, he would do something to earn all the attention he was getting.

I realize many of you would pooh pooh this sort of thing as meaningless and trivial.

I realize some of you husbands have wives that no doubt talk about you like this to their friends...perhaps even in front of your face. So you probably think this sort of thing is "normal" and "harmless."

I think it's far more subversive than that.

If the person that shares your bed and sees you at your worst in the privacy of home doesn't have respect you enough to in fact publicly fault you to strangers... well, if you don't get that, I can't help you.

Hey, to each his own.

But what the hell....going on an optional luxury vacation to Spain, and taking the child with her so that Daddy is alone on his birthday?

I think that's just another piece of the puzzle that confirms what i thought: I think Michelle rules the roost in that house. That is my opinion. And I don't think that's an admirable state of affairs for the so-called "leader" of the free world to be in.

He's not even the leader of his own freaking household.

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Pete at Home
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Maureen Dowd is a shallow twit that uses third person hearsay like it was solid evidence. If Mrs Obama really did say all that stuff, that's sad, and also more telling than this vacation to Spain, but as for the conclusions you're drawing, you seem to have confused leadership with abuse. IIRC Lincoln didn't have a great marriage either, but he did manage to keep a country together.
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Pete at Home
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Was Margaret Thatcher the "leader" of her own household? Does it matter?
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Maureen Dowd is a shallow twit that uses third person hearsay like it was solid evidence. If Mrs Obama really did say all that stuff, that's sad, and also more telling than this vacation to Spain, but as for the conclusions you're drawing, you seem to have confused leadership with abuse. IIRC Lincoln didn't have a great marriage either, but he did manage to keep a country together.

Pete, she did say all that stuff...Maureen just compiled it all into one column that ignited a minor controversy on the internet. These are all quotes she took from campaign appearances and speeches. And yes, I agree, she most certainly is a shallow twit. But she raised a good point, precisely because she is pro-Democrat, and she was worried that Michelle emasculating him like that would cost him votes.

Oh, and I certainly have NOT confused leadership with abuse....but I certainly note that one of the tactics of the shreiking wife that dominates her husband is to immediately claim any attempts by her hen-pecked husband to assert himself is "abusive." Hah!

Lincoln didn't have a great marriage because his wife was mentally ill. And his "keeping the country together" was the beginning of the end of the Constitutional Republic...but THAT'S a different thread altogether. [LOL]

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Chael
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
[...] the shreiking wife that dominates her husband [...]

[LOL]
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
And his "keeping the country together" was the beginning of the end of the Constitutional Republic...but THAT'S a different thread altogether. [LOL]

Naw, the beginning of the end was when his Republican cabinet members conspired in his murder in order to prevent Lincoln from fulfilling his promise to forgive the South and restore the Constitutional Republic, sans slavery, but with federalism otherwise intact. But that is indeed another discussion.
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Funean
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I saw some of those remarks. They honestly struck me as a hamfisted campaign strategy to humanize the guy Rolling Stone put on their cover with a non-satirical halo, and I read Dowd's remarks as a warning that the strategy wasn't working as intended ("Rather than seeming disarmingly human, yer making him look like a dolt!"). I also thought it was clear that the remarks were rehearsed and not native to Michelle Obama (it didn't seem like her word choices, and the chuckling Mama Hen "oh them silly menfolk" just isn't her mien--she's an executive, for heaven's sake). I think they were written for her, I think she delivered them clumsily, and I suspect she refused to be used as a prop in her husband's campaign after that, since we saw very little of the "Barry at Home" BS after a certain point in the campaign, just as we saw very little of the girls.

I have no idea what to discern from the fact that she took a trip away on his birthday. What about the fact that it seems only one daughter went? Does that imply a sinister lack of love for the other one? This is a big pile of Not Enough Information to draw conclusions about something that is none of our concern. Not to mention another example of how everything under the sun can be twisted to be an example of either ballessness or brass balls, depending on how one views the action in question. He must get a rash from all those balls flying on and off him all the time.

In any case, good lord, Daruma, you really do see the world through a finely calibrated lens. It must get tiresome seeing only a couple shades of a couple of colors all the time, and I'm genuinely sad for you.

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