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Author Topic: The real Islam
mostafa
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Here you will know the real Islam :
You understand Islam in a wrong way
You listen to your priests and your american sites and your means of media only and refuse to know the real Islam I read about Jesus , and it is not wrong to know about the other side
you are not loss anything by reading , or see theses 2 sites:
http://sultan.org/articles/ISLAMFAQ.html
http://www.islam-shadow.5u.com/index3.html

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TomDavidson
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Mostafa, do you really believe that posts of this sort are likely to convert people?
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Mostafa, do you really believe that posts of this sort are likely to convert people?

Wait, what's wrong with Mostafa's post? He rocked up, accused everyone of being ignorant and bigoted, linked to a pair of vapid, empty tracts, and didn't share a single original thought or personal opinion with us. That's like, totally guaranteed to get converts.
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Chael
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Mostafa, I would be interested to read anything you have to say. We don't have a lot of followers of Islam on this website. You could be a valued voice here.

But to be that, you need to say something of your own. It is not illegal to offer links to the words of others. (As Hobsen mentioned previously, offering links is good.) But it would be nice if you could try to describe them and say what you think about them when you are posting links. That way there's room for discussion.

We talk about things here. You are valuable here because of what /you/ have to say.

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Viking_Longship
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Honestly I think to a person with no familiarity with Islam past what they get in our media the links Mostafa provided would provide a valuable insight into what muslims believe. (From what you'd get in our media you'd assume the Koran was nothing but a discourse on creative ways to kill Jews and Christians)

Mostafa, the problem isn't our priests, its our politicians and our media.

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seekingprometheus
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Rallan:
[LOL]
Chael:

He are not good in the English. He are sure he have many teachings good for our knowing, but he are not understand us tongue enough to tell.

I doubt he has much to say in any language. Those Q&A seemed like they were written for 8 year olds.

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mostafa
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TomDavidson,Thank you for your post my job as a Moslem is to make people know what is the real Islam you<people in America and Europe> accuse Islam of terrorism and stoning women to the death so I must make you know the real Islam then you have absolute freedom to embrace Islam or no
Allah enjoins us in the holy Quran to teach people the real Islam and tells us that we shouldn't force anyone to embrace Islam

Many people in many countries and places embrace Islam If you want me to put websites that prove that , I will do

Chael, I'm afraid of writing articles with spelling and grammar mistakes because as I write before I'm an Egyptian student<18 years> so you will mock at me
Viking_longship, Islam doesn’t enjoin us to kill Jews and Christians It is along topic I will talk about It later
Allah bless you

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RickyB
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"Mostafa, the problem isn't our priests, its our politicians and our media. "

Some priests are a huge problem. Others less so. Some actually do good in the field of inter-faith relations.

Mostafa,

"Viking_longship, Islam doesn’t enjoin us to kill Jews and Christians It is along topic I will talk about It later"

Except for on judgment day, right? When even the stones and trees will cry out to prevent Jews from hiding from death? You have read that Sura, I'm sure? Because although the matter can be blown out of proportion, the fact is that there are many Muslims who not only find that bit quite central to their faith, there are even those who take it upon themselves to decide that the time has come.

Islam is like any other religion - a mechanism for social control. It has good aspects and bad, causes some people to behave better than they would have otherwise, and causes others to behave much worse.

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DonaldD
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"Chael, I'm afraid of writing articles with spelling and grammar mistakes because as I write before I'm an Egyptian student<18 years> so you will mock at me"

We have had a number of posters whose English language skills were no better than yours and who were not mocked for it (or at least, not to any significant degree.)

If you attempt to make arguments, you won't be mocked for your language. If, however, you simply link to other postings without making the attempt to explain yourself, then you will likely be mocked and your language might come in for some ribbing in the process.

And of course, there are jerks everywhere in the world...

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TomDavidson
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quote:
TomDavidson,Thank you for your post my job as a Moslem is to make people know what is the real Islam you<people in America and Europe> accuse Islam of terrorism and stoning women to the death so I must make you know the real Islam then you have absolute freedom to embrace Islam or no
It's not simply people in America and Europe that accuse Islam of terrorism, you realize; it is every Muslim who insists that, in the name of Allah, he must kill the infidel. He may be wrong, but I'm sure you understand that no club has the luxury of choosing which of their members can legitimately represent it.

It's certainly true that Westerners unfortunately associate Islam with terrorism to a degree that far exceeds the actual incidence of terrorism (or even level of extremist belief) among Muslims. We've just had a couple conversations on that topic on this forum, in fact. And it's certainly true that the vast majority of Muslims do not believe that an adulteress or rape victim should be stoned.

But let's face it: if you hear about someone being stoned by her family for being raped, it is almost a certainty that the family in question calls themselves Muslim (although I recognize that such an act is horrifying and barbaric to the vast majority of Muslims). In the same way, in the United States, almost every man who has taken more than one wife and lives in the Midwest is almost certain to call himself a Mormon or Latter-Day Saint, even though that church has gone to great lengths to suppress and doctrinally refute that practice.

quote:
Many people in many countries and places embrace Islam If you want me to put websites that prove that
One thing that you may want to examine, Mostafa, is why you think that constitutes "proof." One of my great complaints about the current state of Islamic "scholarship" in general is its reliance on groupthink and affirmation instead of the scientific method.

The issue is not whether many people embrace Islam. Clearly many people do. The issue is, of course, whether people are right to embrace Islam, and the fact that they do embrace Islam is not actually evidence that addresses that question in any way.

I don't know your field of study, nor am I familiar with Egyptian secondary schools. Are you acquainted with the concept called (in English, at least) the "scientific method?" Do you understand why, when most people speak of proof in an academic setting, they speak of mathematical, logical, or scientific proofs?

When you are attempting to persuade people that Islamic faith is a good thing, you can't simply point out that lots of people think it is. You need to demonstrate what is good about that faith, and what its believers get from it that they would not get from some other form of belief.

-----------------

If you, living in Egypt, want to demonstrate to the world that Islamic culture is not something to fear, you need to ensure that your country and your culture publicly punishes and ostracizes the worst, most medieval offenses still committed in the name of that culture. And, certainly, Egypt is far from being a hotbed of the kind of extremism that many Westerners fear; you aren't and shouldn't be held responsible for the behavior of idiots in central Asia and the Sudan.

Still, rather than trying to prove to Americans that not all Muslims are scary, I have to confess I'd much rather see Muslims spend their time explaining to the ones that are scary why they shouldn't be.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
... And it's certainly true that the vast majority of Muslims do not believe that an adulteress or rape victim should be stoned.

Statistically, this is not clear to me.
Unfortunately, there does not appear to be multi-country polls available.

However, the two largest Muslim populations by country are Pakistan and Indonesia, which do and have majorities in favour in both cases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population

quote:
One of the ironies in the survey is the extent to which Pakistanis embrace some of the severe laws associated with the Taliban and al Qaeda, even as they reject Islamic extremism and these extremist groups. The new poll finds broad support for harsh punishments: 78% favor death for those who leave Islam; 80% favor whippings and cutting off hands for crimes like theft and robbery; and 83% favor stoning adulterers.
http://pewglobal.org/2009/08/13/pakistani-public-opinion/

quote:
Supporters of Shari'a argue that the central government's attitude simply reflects public sentiment. A 2006 poll by the Indonesia Survey Institute found that 58% of Indonesians believed adulterers should be stoned, as is mandated by Islamic law, up from 39% five years before.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1592576-2,00.html#ixzz0xpVJ2QNj

So I think this remains to be determined.
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Pyrtolin
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Wait, why does he have the massive responsibility of needing to reform other people that fall in the same family of beliefs as he does or live in proximity to them, any more than you have a responsibility to do the same for people similar to you?
He's volunteered to some degree to provide information about his views of Islam, but that's his choice, no matter how we might want to press him for a more information. (And instead of trying to appreciate his efforts and alleviate his worries about being picked on for language, folks have been ratcheting up the pressure for immediate performance)
If you want to learn, stand back and give him some room to share, and remember that he's speaking for himself, just as we all are- he's not an ambassador to all things Islamic, just another voice that would like to be heard.

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Chael
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quote:
Originally posted by mostafa:
Chael, I'm afraid of writing articles with spelling and grammar mistakes because as I write before I'm an Egyptian student<18 years> so you will mock at me

Mostafa: I will not mock you. I will definitely not mock you for your spelling and grammar mistakes. If you make it obvious (like you are now) that you don't think you are good at writing in English, I think most people here (maybe even all of them) will forgive your mistakes, especially if you try to get better. I will also say that you should not be afraid. If you are joining us for discussion because you believe you have a religious obligation to do so, should you not show courage?

Having read your first link, I wondered if you could explain something for me. It says:

quote:

Do we have free will?
Yes, of course. Allah does not punish us for something we did not do on our own. But at the same time, our will is not inspire of Allah's will. We cannot do anything if Allah will not allow it. In other words nothing goes on in Allah's kingdom without His will.

Free will means that we can direct our own actions according to our will. So what your link says seems to be that we do not have free will, but rather that we do what Allah allows us to do.

What do you think?

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DonaldD
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Better to ask by what mechanism would such actions be prevented. It is not obvious from that statement that 'nothing' is a result of a lack of will as opposed to a lack of oportunity or freedom.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Wait, why does he have the massive responsibility of needing to reform other people that fall in the same family of beliefs as he does or live in proximity to them, any more than you have a responsibility to do the same for people similar to you?
I didn't say he had any more responsibility. But I've spent hour upon hour explaining to noel why he's wrong about things, for example; surely Mostafa can spend as much time explaining similar things to Muslim bigots of his acquaintance.

Explaining to me why noel's wrong is exactly the sort of thing he shouldn't bother doing.

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seekingprometheus
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@All:

Oy. A far less indicting chiding than I deserved.

Mostafa:

I owe you an apology. My post did have a mocking tone, and that was inappropriate, and not indicative of the overall ethos of this forum.

Frankly, I should have followed Islamic guidelines on alcohol a bit better before posting last night.

All I was trying to convey was my intuition that a linguistic barrier might be at play in the limited editorializing provided for your links. I'm nonetheless embarrassed by the way I chose to convey that divination.

Honestly, your English seems quite good, especially in light of the biographical information you provided. It is, without a doubt, vastly superior to my non-existent arabic. The best way to improve a language skill is to use it, and I certainly hope my inappropriate tone didn't put you off of practicing a skill you should be proud of having developed so well at such a young age.

With that said, I do think the links you provided imply a lack of understanding of the complexly nuanced relationships many of our members here have to concepts of Islam and religion in general.

A tract containing the bullet-points of remedial indoctrination has little relevance to the question of the relationship between Islam and the violent modes of behavior some Muslims ascribe to their belief in their ideology.

If anything, the parts that demonstrated the simplistic processes through which clean-slated individuals are inculcated with ideas that the most high God created evil to facilitate submission to his will only show how deeply rooted in the ideology the contemporary problems really are.

So you know, the links you provided seem to have less to do with truth, than they do with the processes through which behavior can be manipulated in hungry, socially receptive minds.

I wonder if you have as much concern for whether or not the things you have been taught are true as you seem to have with providing others with the ability to understand the veracity of the things you have accepted as true.

[ August 27, 2010, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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noel
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Mostafa,

I am probably one of the "bigoted" unbelievers that Tom was alluding to.

English is not a language that I would ever like to learn as a secondary. It is so loaded with borrowed elements that consistency in many rule-guided constructions is elusive. The redeeming aspect of this is that it can be subtly powerful in conveying ideas. I agree with SP that you seem to be doing well in your efforts to communicate.

I also believe you have much to contribute to an understanding here. Even your age is advantageous, as you are only four years older than the average moslem male. Your vision of Islam, and westerners, should be useful in dissecting problems inherent in the clash between fundamentalist elements among your co-religionists, and the broad spectrum of non-islamic populations.

I have a narrow question for you;

Does Allah approve of violent acts, performed by moslems, if the result is an expansion of Islamic territory?

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DonaldD
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Kudos, SP. I was initialy a little disappointed.
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seekingprometheus
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DD:

[FootInMouth]

I was drunk. A state which is relatively unfamiliar to me.

The tipsy truth is, I wasn't even trying to throw flip his way with the first bit--that liquor lip was lobbed at Chael for failing to pick up on it.

Alcohol-stupor excuses aside though, I do think I've been more snarky lately than I'd like to be. This isn't to suggest that I don't love me some high-brow trash-talk--we all have our reasons for participating here, and that's certainly one of mine--but I never intended for it to dominate my tone here the way it has of late. As I read over my recent posts, I'm definitely picking up on a bleed of excessive latent aggression--which alarms me, because I believe my usual standard for acceptable roughhousing tilts toward the high end of the spectrum even when I'm running well under my redline.

In any case, apologies all around for saying something that came across in a way that doesn't remotely represent the way I would like to perceive or portray myself, and which certainly doesn't represent what I love about this forum.

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Chael
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingprometheus:
The tipsy truth is, I wasn't even trying to throw flip his way with the first bit--that liquor lip was lobbed at Chael for failing to pick up on it.

Oh, I picked up on it; I'd read the first thread he posted. I had already thought about Donald's suggestion as well, but decided to leave it aside; I have found that if I want to know what other people think, it helps if I just ask them.

If I wasn't going to allow for the possibility that what others type might be worthy of my attention, I wouldn't read this board. When posters are new to me, I do them the (dubious) favor of taking them at face value.

This tendency of mine often causes me to appear naive, as it no doubt has here, judging by the responses I have received in this thread from posters who are not Mostafa. I wouldn't normally care much, but if now my perceived naivete is going to be the cause of drunken flipping (which causes a furor and numerous posts which have little to do with the topic at hand), I surely must say something!

In conclusion, if you ever need a straight-man at parties, just give me a ring. I do a wicked Spock-face.

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mostafa
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do we have free will?
Yes, of course. Allah does not punish us for something we did not do on our own. But at the same time, our will is not inspire of Allah's will. We cannot do anything if Allah will not allow it. In other words nothing goes on in Allah's kingdom without His will.

Please, be patient [Razz] , be patient [Wink]
, I will answer all your questions but slowly
Chael, Allah creates people and gives them the Benevolence and the evil. Anyone has will free to do everything he wants but Allah finally will punish him If he does any evil thing but If he repents, Allah will accept his repentance

If anyone does a good thing, Allah will reward him so freedom has limits as Islam put rules {Don’t <thieve-kill-Commit adultery-drink cohol as it affects your health and your mind and make you forget praying.

In short, you can do everything you want with obeying Allah by doing things that aren’t harmful to your health or that don’t hurt people

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seekingprometheus
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quote:
Oh, I picked up on it; I'd read the first thread he posted.
Wow. I felt bad before I read it.
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seekingprometheus
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Mostafa:
quote:
Don’t <thieve-kill-Commit adultery-drink cohol as it affects your health and your mind and make you forget praying.
This seems correct and good to me. I am glad Islam teaches these things.

I had a headache after I last drank alcohol. Islam seems to teach that this is so that I learn not to drink alcohol. I do not believe in Islam, but this teaching seems wise to me. [Smile]

Islam has many teachings. There seem to be many teachings, and many teachers. These teachers do not always teach the same things.

I have heard some Muslim teachers say that Allah teaches Muslims to kill. I have heard others say this is not true, but I have read words from the Quran which say to kill without stopping until religion is for Allah.

I have thought a lot about these things.

I believe that Islam teaches many good and wise things. When some Americans say that Islam is evil, I say that Islam is not evil. I say that it has many teachings that are very good, and a small amount of teachings that are very bad. I say that it is wrong for Americans to see only what is bad and not what is good.

I do not believe that Allah teaches bad teachings. But I do believe that there are many Muslims who teach bad teachings and say they are teachings of Islam.

When I hear you say:
quote:
Islam you<people in America and Europe> accuse Islam of terrorism and stoning women to the death so I must make you know the real Islam
...I think you want me not to think that these accusations are true. But my best friend is from Pakistan, where he was raised a Muslim, and he has told me that Islam teaches that women should be stoned to death for doing certain things.

I think that it may be that you do not want me to know that Islam teaches this thing. Or perhaps you do not understand everything that Islam teaches. Then again, perhaps it is my friend who is wrong, or I who have misunderstood him.

But many people say that Islam teaches this thing. And many of them are Muslims.

I do not think it is good to teach that women should be stoned to death. I think that it is bad to teach this thing.

I would like to hear more Muslims say that this is a bad thing to teach. But I think some Muslims are afraid to say that this is bad to teach.

If all Muslims said such things were bad to teach, there would be many more people who would see the good in Islam.

[Smile]

[ August 28, 2010, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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RickyB
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"And, certainly, Egypt is far from being a hotbed of the kind of extremism that many Westerners fear;"

Actually not true. Don't let the fact that Egypt is ruled by westward-looking folks fool you. It is not coincidence that Ayman al-Zawahiri is Egyptian. It is not for no cause that everyone fears the day when Mubarak dies. Islamic Brotherhood is the most significant alternative to the government in Egypt.

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noel
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Ricky,

For once, I find myself able to agree with you.

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RickyB
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And of course, westward is a limited, selective term...
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Chael
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quote:
Originally posted by mostafa:
Please, be patient [Razz] , be patient [Wink]
, I will answer all your questions but slowly

Okay! [Smile]

Thank you for responding.

quote:

Chael, Allah creates people and gives them the Benevolence and the evil. Anyone has will free to do everything he wants but Allah finally will punish him If he does any evil thing but If he repents, Allah will accept his repentance

If anyone does a good thing, Allah will reward him so freedom has limits as Islam put rules {Don’t <thieve-kill-Commit adultery-drink cohol as it affects your health and your mind and make you forget praying.

In short, you can do everything you want with obeying Allah by doing things that aren’t harmful to your health or that don’t hurt people

Let me see if I understand you. You are translating these lines from the link:

quote:

But at the same time, our will is not inspire of Allah's will. We cannot do anything if Allah will not allow it. In other words nothing goes on in Allah's kingdom without His will.

As this: "We have free will, and our actions have consequences."

This makes sense to me. But the last line from the link seems to say something different:

quote:

In other words nothing goes on in Allah's kingdom without His will.

This seems to say that if someone does something, it is because Allah wanted them to do it. That is different from saying that if they are smart, they will make sure that they follow the rules Allah has given. In the first example, they have no choice, but are only what they were made to be. In the second example, they have choice. Which do you agree with, and why?

-------------

I think seekingprometheus said important things in his most recent post and would be interested to read your response to him. If you only have time to write one response the next time you are here, I would ask that you respond to his and not to mine. I can wait.

[ August 28, 2010, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Chael ]

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Paladine
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Mostafa-

Welcome to Ornery [Smile]

Can you tell me a few good ideas from Islam which can't be found in Christianity?

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mostafa
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quote:
Mostafa-

Welcome to Ornery

Thanks
quote:
Can you tell me a few good ideas from Islam which can't be found in Christianity?
Oh,It is a good question
I read about Christianity and Jesus. In Egypt, we have 8 or 7 millions of Christian people. they are Orthodox and Anglicans.and I have Christian friends who talk to me about Jesus.After that I can make a comparison between Islam and Christian:Islam: there is no god but Allah. we don't worship The prophet Mohammed or The prophet Jesus<essa> or Buddha. Allah only

Christian:, as my Christian friends told me, you have Three gods<Jesus and His father and Gabriel[The holy spirit]>
Islam: considers Jesus as prophet not god
and he wasn't Crucified but Allah save him
and also Allah isn't born and didn't marry
Christian: your god was born and was Child

I cant Imagine how I worship god like me eats and drinks or how this god Who creates you died or how he couldn't defend and save himself from Crucifixion

http://www.marymina.com/vb/showthread.php?t=857
To Be continued

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TomDavidson
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quote:
This seems to say that if someone does something, it is because Allah wanted them to do it.
In my own understanding of Islamic doctrine, it is not that Allah necessarily wanted them to do it, but rather that He has chosen to permit it.

quote:
I cant Imagine how I worship god like me eats and drinks or how this god Who creates you died or how he couldn't defend and save himself from Crucifixion
Just a quick note: you probably don't want to come down on points of mythological doctrine in answering these questions. For one thing, many people consider it an advantage that some versions of the Christian God actually spent some time in a human body, eating and drinking and pooping. For another, I don't think you'll find a single Christian who believes that Christ couldn't have defended or saved himself from crucifixion; rather, they believe he deliberately made himself a martyr, perhaps even a ritual sacrifice.
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Chael
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
In my own understanding of Islamic doctrine, it is not that Allah necessarily wanted them to do it, but rather that He has chosen to permit it.

That is an interesting distinction.
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mostafa
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quote:
a discourse on creative ways to kill Jews and Christians
quote:
Does Allah approve of violent acts, performed by moslems, if the result is an expansion of Islamic territory?
No,No,No,of course,Allah isn’t happy to expand Islam and make people muslim by killing or terror or by sex like christinizers in turkey or by money as also christinizers do in my home Egypt and many Arab countries.
As I said before, the prophet Mohammed< peace be upon him>
وسلمsays that If any Muslim kills any another Muslim or kills any Christian or Jewish who doesn’t hurt this Muslim will go to the hill for example if I kill <Donald> who doesn't hurt me or kill any one of my family , I will go to the hill but if I repent Allah will accept my Repentance
You accuse Islam of terrorism because of September 11 attacks but there were Muslims were killed so Allah, sure,is angry of killing Innocents.
1. I don’t like to talk about Politics <Policy>
But don’t forget that Britain conquered my country Egypt in 15/9/1882 and kill many Egyptians who was kind with them . my grandmother told me about that they kill egyptians without reasons
France conquered Egypt in 1798
France conquered Tunis in 1881
France conquered Algeria in 1830
France conquered morocco in 1912
France conquered Djibouti in 1862
France conquered Syria in 1920
France conquered Lebanon in 1920
The French conquest was the ugliest conquest because they forced muslim lady to marry French men
America conquered Iraq in 20/3/2003
America conquered Lebanon, Pakistan
Oh,What a pity the American conquest destroy homes,buildings,mosques, kill people, Rape women, arrest man and women, Massacring children without reasons
American people,please don’t be angry of what I said, It is the truth, you are Deceived by your means of media
Radofan Crazadetch ,< War criminal in Russia> ,was responsible for killing and Annihilating 8000 Muslims in Bosna,Shishan,Harsac,Serbia and forcing them to embrace Christianity

So, Who is the real terrorism?
After all that, we can't accuse you or Christian people of terrorism or say that Christianity is a terrorist religion or Christians are terrorist or extremist not because of fear of you but because of fear of Allah who prevents us from accusing all people of a specific country, society or religion of bad things. So Muslims can't accuse all Americans of terrorism as I know that not all Americans agree on killing the other innocents without reasons but you accuse all Muslims of terrorism. You want to kill us and Massacre our children and when we defend our homes and resist the aggressors, you call us <terrorists and extremists>
What American conquest do in Iraq:

http://www.google.com.eg/imgres?imgurl=http://irq4all.com/photos/3005200914711.jpg&imgrefurl=http://irq4all.com/ShowNews.php%3Fid%3D4885&usg=__nAdJCWSpSgUyp68o--bP0WjbuX8=&h=453&w= 792&sz=92&hl=ar&start=1&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=iG2D34BTkDAa0M:&tbnh=82&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D8%25B5%25D9%2588%25D8%25B1%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D8%25AD%25D8% 25AA%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D9%2585%25D8%25B1%25D9%258A%25D9%2583%25D9%2589%2B%25D9%2581%25D9%2589%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25B9%25D8%2 5B1%25D8%25A7%25D9%2582%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dar%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1

http://www.google.com.eg/imgres?imgurl=http://www.almoslim.net/files/images/thumb/image009-thumb2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.almoslim.net/node/99418&usg=__k6DGeIHoTTmm-AZzMfPwoYRTQfs =&h=312&w=250&sz=30&hl=ar&start=8&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Xz1rVDw8hzSOYM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=94&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D8%25B5%25D9%2588%25D8%25B1%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D8% 25AD%25D8%25AA%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D9%2585%25D8%25B1%25D9%258A%25D9%2583%25D9%2589%2B%25D9%2581%25D9%2589%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%2 5B9%25D8%25B1%25D8%25A7%25D9%2582%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dar%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1

http://www.google.com.eg/imgres?imgurl=http://i3.makcdn.com/userFiles/m/o/mohamed-najihi/images/1195077800.jpg&imgrefurl=http://aljarida.maktoobblog.com/621898/%25D9%2581%25D8%25A4 %25D8%25A7%25D8%25AF-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D9%2587%25D9%2585%25D8%25A9-%25D9%2588-%25D9%2584%25D8%25AD%25D8%25A8%25D9%258A%25D8%25A8-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25B4%25D9%2588%25D8% 25A8%25D8%25A7%25D9%2586%25D9%258A-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A8%25D8%25B1%25D9%2584%25D9%2585%25D8%25A7%25D9%2586-%25D8%25A7/&usg=__ropifTroV4mE9dZUFAMdEODeQ4o=&h=360&w=312&sz=27 &hl=ar&start=36&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=TJGg2IX8VfU9QM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=105&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D8%25B5%25D9%2588%25D8%25B1%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D8%25AD%25D8%25AA%25 D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D9%2585%25D8%25B1%25D9%258A%25D9%2583%25D9%2589%2B%25D9%2581%25D9%2589%2B%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25B9%25D8%25B1%25D 8%25A7%25D9%2582%26start%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dar%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1


that is enough, I have much and much [Confused]
Is Jesus happy [Cool] of that?
does Jesus accept that?

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seekingprometheus
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Mostafa:
quote:
you accuse all Muslims of terrorism. You want to kill us and Massacre our children and when we defend our homes and resist the aggressors, you call us <terrorists and extremists>
This is not true.

You say all westerners do not understand Islam, but you do not ask what the westerners you talk to here do understand of Islam.

We are from the west and you do not ask what we think, you say only what YOU believe we think.

No one here says all Muslims are terrorists.

There are some westerners who say these things, just as there are some Muslims who are terrorists. In this website, we are very hard on westerners who say such things.

You should ask us what we know and what we think, instead of telling us what we think.

Here we look at westerners who say and do bad things, and we say that they are wrong. We try to understand how our culture does wrong, and we try to make it better.

You are wrong to say we do not understand before you ask what we do understand. And you are wrong to say and think only how the west is wrong.

I say the west is wrong in many things. I say Islam is wrong in many things. I try to understand how I am wrong in many things. I try to help others understand where they are wrong. But only after I hear them say what they think.

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noel
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Tom,

You are going to force Mustafa to defend a strain of islam, rather than Islam per se.

There was, from the outset, both a deterministic, and *free will* schools of thought. Each found scriptural justification within the Koran, eg.;

[5:120] To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything in them, and He is Omnipotent.

[17:111] And proclaim: "Praise be to GOD, who has never begotten a son, nor does He have a partner in His kingship, nor does He need any ally out of weakness," and magnify Him constantly.

[2:6] As for those who disbelieve, it is the same for them; whether you warn them, or not warn them, they cannot believe.
[2:7] God seals their minds and their hearing , and their eyes are veiled. They have incurred severe retribution.

It is the deterministic brand of Islam that Pope Benedict criticized at Regensburg in 2006;

“ I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on — perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara — by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between — as they were called — three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an. It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point — itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole — which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.
In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that sura 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood — and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: "For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Muslim R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry."

This is the (fundamentalistic) Islamic equivalent of Calvinism, and fuels current fundamentalist terrorism.

Free will passages;

[99:7] Whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it. [99:8] And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.

[16:92] Do not be like the knitter who unravels her strong knitting into piles of flimsy yarn. This is your example if you abuse the oaths to take advantage of one another. Whether one group is larger than the other, GOD thus puts you to the test. He will surely show you on the Day of Resurrection everything you had disputed.
[16:93] Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He sends astray whoever chooses to go astray, and He guides whoever wishes to be guided. You will surely be asked about everything you have done.

The early Islam of southern Iraq interpreted this class of scriptural theology as vindication of absolute free-will, which later islamic jurists perceived to be an encroachment upon Allah's absolute dominion.

The theological hybird that emerged is self-contradictory, but it has it's christian counterpart in both Catholocism, and Mormonism, for thet matter.

The assertion basically states that men have free will, but only within parameters which God has set. Needless to say, the dialogue continues because of that.

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seekingprometheus
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Mostafa:

I think that you know many things that would be good for westerners to hear.

But if you would like westerners to hear and understand those things they do not know, you must first understand what they do know.

And you must be fair, and realize there are things you do not understand.

In this website, we have great respect for any man or woman who has wisdom and knowledge. We also have great respect for any man or woman who knows that he does not understand all things, and seeks to learn.

We do not respect those that only think they know, and do not seek to understand.

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noel
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Mostafa,

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does Allah approve of violent acts, performed by moslems, if the result is an expansion of Islamic territory?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No,No,No,of course,Allah isn’t happy to expand Islam and make people muslim by killing or terror or by sex like christinizers in turkey or by money as also christinizers do in my home Egypt and many Arab countries.

Would you openly condemn moslems who spoke in such terms, eg,; Osama bin Laden, and others who believe the world should be governed under sharia law?

[ August 28, 2010, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: noel ]

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noel
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P.S.,

No, Jesus does not endorse killing in his name for real estate. [Wink]

I am curious what you mean by "sex", and "money". Are people free to be bad, and accountable to him only, under Islam?

[ August 28, 2010, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: noel ]

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seekingprometheus
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Well.

In light of what Noiac posted, I might need to clarify. There may be one person here who says that all Muslims are terrorists.

He obviously doesn't actually go as far as that, though I think the distinction he makes might get lost on most Muslims. I certainly don't think he makes points in a way that facilitates a dialogue, though.

In any case, he's been severely and widely criticized for his narrow focus. In fact, some of us have pointed out that his obsessive, fear-based preoccupation with elements of Islam that represent a threat to him (and his) make him a tool of the terrorists, in a very real sense.

We do let him say what he wants, and he certainly doesn't need to fear that other westerners will use violence to stop him from saying or thinking wrong things, but we do stand up to tell him he is wrong.

We speak out and say that he is wrong to say the things he says, as Muslims should speak out and say that what the terrorists do is wrong.

[ August 28, 2010, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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noel
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SP,

quote:
He obviously doesn't actually go as far as that, though I think the distinction he makes might get lost on most Muslims.
Stop being such a pedantic dolt.

quote:
In any case, he's been severely and widely criticized for his narrow focus.
Yes, paradoxically by someone who (irrationally) believes one billion moslems will be radicalized under the aegis of fundamentalist manipulation.

quote:
We do let him say what he wants... We speak out and say that he is wrong to say the things he says...
Would this be the divine "we".
SP, Have you found religion? [Wink]

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seekingprometheus
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Mostafa:

So you know, I have accused Noel of only thinking he knows, and not trying to understand.

In this website, we think many different things. We argue with each other when we disagree. Our arguments are very complex, and difficult to understand even for westerners who are very smart and speak English very well.

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