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Author Topic: The real Islam
TomDavidson
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quote:
I humbly submit that's not enough difference to make one group Christian and another group not Christian.
That Mormons believe it is possible for people to actually become gods themselves, and that human souls pre-existed the universe and were not created by God, are to me the biggest stumbling blocks barring them from "normal Christian" status.
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Carlotta
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Yes, the biggest differences I see are that God did not create human souls, is not totally omnipotent, and that Jesus is not seen as the only begotten son of God but one of many.

(Correct me if I've got Mormon doctrine wrong on any point).

Of course, there are a lot of things I admire and respect about the LDS church and of course I think people of different beliefs can work together to accomplish a lot of good things.

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seekingprometheus
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quote:
Yes, the biggest differences I see are that God did not create human souls, is not totally omnipotent, and that Jesus is not seen as the only begotten son of God but one of many.
I think the "only begotten" bit leaves room for a quibble. While Mormons claim that all humans are "spirit children" of Heavenly Father, they do generally hold belief in the immaculate conception, or that Christ was "begotten" in a qualitatively different way than all other humans.

The sectarian dispute regarding whether or not Mormons are Christian seems silly to me. Mormons believe Christ is divine, and they believe in the same basic soteriology as all other Pauline Christians. Sure, there are theological differences, but those have absolutely nothing to do with whether one worships Christ or not.

It seems to me like a mean-spirited dispute between Mormons and other Protestants--I really don't know why the Catholics have gotten involved, since they have just as much warrant in doctrinal differences to deny "Christian" status to all Protestants, who also worship Christ but deviate from catholic creeds in their own several ways.

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PanHeraclitean
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What do you mean by "immaculate conception"? In the Catholic church, that refers to the Virgin Mary being herself conceived without original sin. The Virgin Birth refers to Jesus having no human father.

The difference I see - and again, please correct me if I'm wrong - is that Mormons believe that although the manner in which Jesus got his human body was qualitatively different than the way the rest of us got ours, since he didn't have a human father. However Mormons also believe, contrary to other Christians, that before we got human bodies, we were all (humanity and Jesus both) fathered by God in the same way. The way I understand it is that before we got bodies we and Jesus were all the same type of creature, while Catholics (and I assume most if not all Protestants) believe that the divine nature of Jesus is qualitatively different from that of a human being.

I do think that the debate can - and often is - entered into in a mean spirited way ("Don't listen to those Mormons, they're not really Christians") but I do think that the question does have some valid applications. For example, the Catholic church doesn't believe in multiple baptisms - we believe baptism is a one-time thing that creates a permanent change in the person's soul. So according to that theology, it is important to determine whether someone wanting to convert to the Catholic church has been validly baptized before or not, and that question has to do with both the words used and the understanding of the original baptism. As far as I understand, if the original intent of the baptizing church was close enough to what Catholics understand baptism to be, then it's considered valid; otherwise, it's not and the person is baptized again to convert.

Edit: Crap, that was Carlotta again. I keep forgetting Pan keeps himself signed in at this computer. Sorry.

[ October 19, 2010, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: PanHeraclitean ]

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TommySama
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quote:
It seems to me like a mean-spirited dispute between Mormons and other Protestants--I really don't know why the Catholics have gotten involved, since they have just as much warrant in doctrinal differences to deny "Christian" status to all Protestants, who also worship Christ but deviate from catholic creeds in their own several ways.
I would imagine that it is against the interests of the Catholic church for there to be a competing church around that so clearly shows how religion is manufactured. Especially when that church is making some the same incredible claims the Catholic church has pimped for hundreds of years.
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Clark
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I think SP has fallen into the common error of thinking that the "immaculate conception" has something to do with the birth of Jesus. The only immaculate conception that I'm familiar with is what Carlotta (in Pan's clothing) mentions which has to do with the birth of Mary.

Carlotta is further correct that that Mormons believe that Jesus got his human body very differently than the rest of us (the Father is his physical father) we were all born spiritually in the same fashion, making us somewhat equal to Jesus in our "spiritual birth". An item of note is the Mormon belief that Jesus was the first spirit child born to God the Father in the premortal world.

Carlotta, do you have any more info on valid baptisms (in the eyes of the CC) from other faiths? Which are or aren't accepted? I'm pretty sure that the CC does not accept a Mormon baptism. (No hard feelings, the LDS church doesn't accept Catholic baptisms, either [Wink] Also, did you look up the official word on whether the CC considers Mormons to be Christians?

As to Jesus being the only begotten son of God, Mormons most certainly believe that, but it wouldn't surprise me if we understand the phrase "only begotten son" differently. Mormons would interpret this to mean that Jesus was the only one with God as his physical father. Does this phrase mean something different to a Catholic?

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I humbly submit that's not enough difference to make one group Christian and another group not Christian.
That Mormons believe it is possible for people to actually become gods themselves, and that human souls pre-existed the universe and were not created by God, are to me the biggest stumbling blocks barring them from "normal Christian" status.
We don't pretend to be "normal Christians," let alone normal Christians to Tom. [Big Grin] We are Christians, but peculiar ones, not normal ones.

But there are a lot of mormons who do interpret the Bible and some teachings of the prophets as signifying that we can become "gods" some day. That's not the interpretation. As our last Prophet, Gordon B Hinckley said of that "gods" doctrine, "I'm not sure that we believe it." IIRC Scott Card doesn't accept it either. My take on it is what Anasthasius said -- God became Man so that Man might become God. In other words, as we become perfect in Christ, our impurities are burnt away until we are one in heart and one in mind, with each other and with Him. We might do many miracles, we might even create worlds, if Jesus commands, but on His authority, through His Power, and to glorify His name. Even ask one of the LDS who believe that we become "gods" if we will still be subject to Jesus, and they will say, of course. Thus Jesus quoted the old testament and said "ye are gods and children of the most high." Ultimately there is still only one God, though the number of persons that are part of that God will be, as He wills.

quote:
No hard feelings, the LDS church doesn't accept Catholic baptisms, either
I'm not sure why the Catholic church accepts some protestant baptisms, since the Catholics, like the LDS church, claim to have the authority given to Peter, the keys to bind on heaven and earth. In that light, I cannot fathom why they would accept the authority of sacraments of Christians who did not recognize the Pope's authority. I can only infer that doctrinal correctness and religious orthodoxy is stricter among Catholics than among LDS, although stronger among Protestants than among either Catholics or Protestants.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
quote:
It seems to me like a mean-spirited dispute between Mormons and other Protestants--I really don't know why the Catholics have gotten involved, since they have just as much warrant in doctrinal differences to deny "Christian" status to all Protestants, who also worship Christ but deviate from catholic creeds in their own several ways.
I would imagine that it is against the interests of the Catholic church for there to be a competing church around that so clearly shows how religion is manufactured. Especially when that church is making some the same incredible claims the Catholic church has pimped for hundreds of years.
Ugly trends start in every group. When I was a missionary, some silly group of Elders started reading and telling other missionaries to read some Protestant-authored anti-Catholic propaganda. I'd grown up in Mexico and knew it was a bunch of crap, and told the other Elders, "do you know what those liars you're reading say about Mormons? Don't trust them. Read your scriptures, not propaganda." They ignored me until the Mission President came down on them. But that was the 1980s ... don't see that anymore since the Catechism changed in 1992, and the LDS church started announcing every 6 months in General conference that a portion of our Tithes were being donated to Catholic Charities. That pretty much shut up anti-catholic bigotry among the LDS, as far as I have seen. [Big Grin]
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seekingprometheus
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quote:
What do you mean by "immaculate conception"? In the Catholic church, that refers to the Virgin Mary being herself conceived without original sin. The Virgin Birth refers to Jesus having no human father.
My bad. I was indeed referring to the Mormon belief that Jesus was begotten through inexplicable magical operations. I wasn't aware the immaculate conception referred to Mary's birth. My point was simply that Jesus' "begotten-ness" is also singular in Mormon theology, and invokes narrative elements of mysterious magic to emphasize his divine nature.
quote:
However Mormons also believe, contrary to other Christians, that before we got human bodies, we were all (humanity and Jesus both) fathered by God in the same way. The way I understand it is that before we got bodies we and Jesus were all the same type of creature, while Catholics (and I assume most if not all Protestants) believe that the divine nature of Jesus is qualitatively different from that of a human being.
Well. Mormons talk about Jesus being a spirit brother. But they also clearly see the divine nature of Jesus as qualitatively different than that of a human being.

I think you're implying that the metaphysical composition of a spiritual substance must be qualitatively distinct to qualify as "real" divinity.

Such a stipulation doesn't seem very relevant to me, it seems like simple metaphysical speculation. Anyone can guess at the mechanics of magic, then imagine what must logically follow within the speculative metaphysical system.

I certainly don't understand what this has to do with the appellation "Christian" specifically.

Do Mormons agree with all the Catholic speculation regarding the logic underlying Paul's metaphysical doctrines? Not in my opinion.

But they do consider themselves disciples of Christ. And they do consider Christ distinctly divine.

Claimed discipleship seems relevant to me regarding the moniker "Christian." The question of belief in the divinity of Christ also seems to bear some qualitative relevance (not enough to hang the appellation on, perhaps, but certainly some relevance). The question of creed regarding metaphysical propositions is something else--not remotely relevant to whether or not someone can accurately be called Christian.

[ October 20, 2010, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: seekingprometheus ]

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seekingprometheus
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quote:
I would imagine that it is against the interests of the Catholic church for there to be a competing church around that so clearly shows how religion is manufactured. Especially when that church is making some the same incredible claims the Catholic church has pimped for hundreds of years.
Yup. And yup.
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mostafa
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal

No, Israel wants nothing from Egypt, all we ever wanted from you was that you leave us alone.

Egypt sent Fedayeen terrorists to terrorise Israeli villages at the Negev Desert, and Also, Egypt closed the straits of the red sea, blockading the Port of Eilat.

Israel never wanted anything from you but peace and quiet.


The battle you talk about that was between the Egyptian soldiers and the Jewish soldiers had its reasons. Its name is <Kfar Derom>. Its reasons were:

1-The massacre of the town of Sheikh in <31-12-1947>.

2- The massacre of the village of Abu Kabir in <31-3-1948>.

3- The massacre of Deir Yassin in <10-4-1948> which the Jewish man '' Menachem Begin'' was proud of killing and slaying many innocent Palestinians.

4- The massacre of Obochocp village in <14-5-1948> by the Jewish man ''Givati''.

5- The massacre of Lod in <11-7-1948> by the Jewish man '' Moshe Dayan''.

All these massacres and many others < If you want me to mention the other massacres, I will do> were committed in Palestine by the hands of the Jewish soldiers.

The Egyptians just have wanted to defend their brothers in Palestine who were slaying daily by the barbaric Jewish soldiers; therefore, Allah has imposed ''Jihad'' in defence of ourselves.

You call Jihad ''terrorism'' and call Muslims who defend their home and brothers ''terrorists''. When the Jews kill innocents in Palestine and Egypt, you call them ''Lover of peace''. I think that is a false peace.


quote:
Israel never wanted anything from you but peace and quiet.
Which peace you talk about.
The Jews captured and invaded Egypt's Sinai Peninsula all the way to the Suez Canal and half of Syria's Golan Heights then they came to say peace.
Your peace is to rape the homes and slay the Muslims then come to say peace.


quote:
"I think that it is folly to say that Egypt is your main home"
It is indeed a folly, and never ever did I , or any Israeli, or Jew that I know of has ever refered to Egypt as his/her home.

Maybe except Jews who immigrated from Egypt to Israel in 1948

Welcome to the Jews who emigrated in Egypt. If they want to come back to Egypt, they should live in a real peace with us like some Christians do. The prophet Mohammed and Muslims were living with the Jews, Christians and Magi.


quote:
Originally posted by Pete

I have never known a Sunni Muslim before who did not think that Shia and Sufi were heretics, nor have I known Shia who did not say that Sunni and Sufi were heretics. I have only known Sufi Muslims who did not think that other branches of Islam were heretics. Are you Sufi?

Pete,

I see that any Muslim has no right to accuse the other Muslims of heretic for making sins. We are all humans who make many sins.

I am Muslim and Sunni. I see that Shia and sufi are Muslims because they say ''there is no god but Allah, Mohammed is his last messenger>. The difference between Sunni, Shia and Sufi is in minor and little things.

For examples, Shia and Sufi sometimes are agree with forcing women to wear veil <that covers her face>

but Sunni give the women freedom to choose if she want to wear veil with covering face or the other veil that doesn't cover the face.

All of us are agree in major thing <Veil-Hijab>
but different in minor thing <veil with covering face>.

So I would like to say that we are all Muslims and
Shia and Sufi are our brothers.


quote:
Please forgive me if what I said gives you offense
Dont mention that.I am not really angry with you. You are gentleman. There are many members here swear my prophet such as Starlisa. I am not angry or act barbarically but I am sad as those who swear my prophet don’t know him or his character and they listen to the means of media and orientalists who defame the character of the great prophet <PBUH>.

Now, I'm gathering information about the biography of the prophet Mohammed from the Islamic <Arab> websites to translate it into English. I know that my English is very poor but I will try to improve it. I will not make copy paste from the other websites and I also will use my own words <simple English> to be easier.


quote:
. I thought that your prophet, peace to him and to you, had taught that Muslims, Jews, and Christians were all people of the book
Yes

quote:
and that we worshipped the same god.
At the beginning the Jews and Christianity were worshiping one and alive god <Allah> but now they no longer do.

Ponder what Allah said in the holy Quran about the Jews and Christians:

''72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah.''



Another Quranik verses:

''116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise.''


Another Quranik verses:

''75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them [People who were worshiping the prophet Jesus <PBUH> beside Allah] ; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!''.

As I have said before, Christians worship 3 gods <Father [Allah-Jesus and the Holy ghost>.

The Jews worship someone they call ''Jehovah''.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The Egyptians just have wanted to defend their brothers in Palestine...
Um. No.
Are you familiar with the Egyptian policy toward Palestinian refugees?

quote:
The Jews captured and invaded Egypt's Sinai Peninsula all the way to the Suez Canal and half of Syria's Golan Heights then they came to say peace.
To be fair, this was because Egypt invaded them first. So they took land that would make future invasions harder.

I don't know what Egyptian secondary schools teach about this sort of history, but I strongly recommend that you search the Internet for English-language descriptions of these conflicts; you are not getting reliable information from your teachers.

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RickyB
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"The Jews worship someone they call ''Jehovah''. "

Yeah, that's the same "someone" you call "Allah". Not a human being. Also, Jews haven't changed the object of their worship since before the days of Muhammad. You are being taught that they did so as an excuse to ignore the words of Muhammad about the Jews being the people of the book and so on.

"For examples, Shia and Sufi sometimes are agree with forcing women to wear veil <that covers her face"

Sufi? You gotta be kidding. Please show me a reference to Sufis forcing the veil on their women. Also, some Sunnis, like Wahabbists and other fundamentalist are the ones who insist on the most strict of veils, like the burqa.

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Carlotta
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Clark, I found this on the question of whether the Catholic church considers Mormons Christian:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=17288

Keep in mind that this is from a forum and is not considered official church teaching - unfortunately I can't find my copy of the Catechism right now to see what, if anything, it says about Mormons. Basically the position from the link goes that one can be Christian in two ways - ontologically or theologically. Ontologically, anyone who has been baptized Christian is a Christian, because we believe that baptism imparts an indelible spiritual mark to one's soul. This ontological Christianity says nothing about the person's moral state or their beliefs. the second definition would be theologically Christian, which means that the person or group's theology is consistent with historical Christianity. It looks like Mormons don't fall into either of these categories, so I suppose by those definitions the CC does not consider the LDS christian.

This doesn't mean Mormons can't get to heaven or don't have a relationship with God, of course.

I'll try to answer the only begotten part later. I do think it means different thinks to Catholics and Mormons, but we'll see. [Smile]

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Viking_Longship
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Mostafa stop quoting the Koran at us, nobody believes in it here but you.

Your country picked a fight with Israel when you lost Sinai, you can't complain about them seizing your territory in a war you started.


How would you like it if declared a new crusade and started driving Muslims out of the Christian territory Muslims stole from us (which would be almost all of it including Egypt)? We'd say we were liberating peoples who were forced to become muslims at the point of your swords (which would be most peoples under Islam.)

This sort of rhetoric goes both ways.

[ October 21, 2010, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Clark
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Carlotta: I suggest the Mormon/Catholic part of this thread be moved to the Presbyterian Scouts thread, which is more related. We'll leave the Islam thread unsullied by our Christian conversations.
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Hannibal
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"The battle you talk about that was between the Egyptian soldiers and the Jewish soldiers"

I did not talk about any single battle, I was definitely not talking about an incident between Jewish and Egyptian soldiers.

I am talking about dozens of incidents when men (A.K.A terrorists) infiltrated Israel from Egypt, and slaughtered innocent Israeli civilians in towns situated at the Negev Desert.

I also talked about Egypt's blockade of the Golf of Eilat(or Aqaba) that pervented goods coming to Israel from Asia.

Mostafa, you are good at mentioning incidents when jews killed arabs, but you easily forget that Arabs killed Jews in many more incidents.

you also conveniently neglect the fact that Arabs killed Jews BEFORE Jews ever even thought about killing Arabs, and you reverse causalities and effects in here. On the same weight I ask you, if you want me to list massacres committed by Arabs on Jews, I will be glad to show you that such massacares occured much more frequently and since earlier times.

Sure, Jews killed Arabs, I dont question your facts. but Egyptians did not invade Israel because of that, That is a very poor reason for invasion and you know very well that Egypt invaded Israel in order to destroy it, and no other reason.

Further more, as people here suggested, read about operation Kadesh (1956), the Six day , and Yum Kippur wars in wikipedia.

You will discover some disturbing facts over there. for once you will discover that Arabs started the wars, and in addition, you will discover that the wars ended with a complete Israeli victory. Even your proudest achievement in 1973 ended with the destruction of your armed forces and with tens of thousands of captive soldiers (3rd Army).

You dont believe a word I say, but read from Wikipedia, check it out.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by mostafa:
Welcome to the Jews who emigrated in Egypt. If they want to come back to Egypt, they should live in a real peace with us like some Christians do. The prophet Mohammed and Muslims were living with the Jews, Christians and Magi.


quote:
Originally posted by Pete

I have never known a Sunni Muslim before who did not think that Shia and Sufi were heretics, nor have I known Shia who did not say that Sunni and Sufi were heretics. I have only known Sufi Muslims who did not think that other branches of Islam were heretics. Are you Sufi?

Pete,

I see that any Muslim has no right to accuse the other Muslims of heretic for making sins. We are all humans who make many sins.

I am Muslim and Sunni. I see that Shia and sufi are Muslims because they say ''there is no god but Allah, Mohammed is his last messenger>. The difference between Sunni, Shia and Sufi is in minor and little things.

Thank you for your explanation of your views, Mostafa. If more of us, Christian and Muslim, were as tolerant of differences, it would be a better world.


quote:
As I have said before, Christians worship 3 gods <Father [Allah-Jesus and the Holy ghost>.

The Jews worship someone they call ''Jehovah''.

Most Christians, including myself, believe that Jehovah, God, and Allah are all different names for the same person. And while I understand that you see our belief that God includes three persons means that we believe in three Gods, we say that we believe in just one God.

There are Christians who believe that I am not a Christian because they believe that there is one God in three persons, while I believe that there are three persons in one God. If you don't understand that, it's not because of the language barrier, it does not make sense to me either. [Big Grin] This is what I call a "small difference," as you spoke of Shia and Sufi.

Peace.

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mostafa
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quote:
I don't know what Egyptian secondary schools teach about this sort of history, but I strongly recommend that you search the Internet for English-language descriptions of these conflicts; you are not getting reliable information from your teachers.
quote:
Further more, as people here suggested, read about operation Kadesh (1956), the Six day , and Yum Kippur wars in wikipedia.

You will discover some disturbing facts over there. for once you will discover that Arabs started the wars, and in addition, you will discover that the wars ended with a complete Israeli victory. Even your proudest achievement in 1973 ended with the destruction of your armed forces and with tens of thousands of captive soldiers (3rd Army).

You don't believe a word I say, but read from Wikipedia, check it out

Before getting any information, I often log onto the Arabic websites before English websites. I have read about, the Six day and the war of 1973 from Wikibedia but the speech about, the Six day and the war of 1973 in English translation is different from the Arabic translation.

Information about, the Six day and the war of 1973 that many English websites talk about are written by the hands of Zionists and many western people who are biased <prejudice> for the Jews.
Our teachers told us that we are defeated in the war of 1948 and 1967 but we defeated the Jews in the war of 1973.


quote:
To be fair, this was because Egypt invaded them first. So they took land that would make future invasions harder.
quote:
Your country picked a fight with Israel when you lost Sinai, you can't complain about them seizing your territory in a war you started.
You want the Jews to rape Sinai which is a part of Egypt and want us to leave it without defence. Egyptian soldiers recovered Sinai which is a part of Egypt.
Imagine that Arabs rape and capture Texas or New York which is a part of your beautiful home America. What will you do? Will you leave your home without defence?


quote:
How would you like it if declared a new crusade and started driving Muslims out of the Christian territory Muslims stole from us (which would be almost all of it including Egypt)? We'd say we were liberating peoples who were forced to become muslims at the point of your swords (which would be most peoples under Islam.)
That what your means of media and orientalists always are saying. Egypt originally wasn’t Christian country but it was idolatrous country. Ancient Egyptians were worshipping the idols and stones such as <Ra and Amon>. If Egypt has become an Islamic country by sword, as you claim,

Why are the numbers of Muslims bigger than the number of people of the other religions?
Egypt is an Islamic country and will be an Islamic country forever.

We have no the right to prevent the people of the other religions to live with us as the prophet Mohammed was living with the Jews, Christians and Magi.


quote:
Most Christians, including myself, believe that Jehovah, God, and Allah are all different names for the same person. And while I understand that you see our belief that God includes three persons means that we believe in three Gods, we say that we believe in just one God.
quote:
________________________________________
"The Jews worship someone they call ''Jehovah''. "

Yeah, that's the same "someone" you call "Allah". Not a human being. Also, Jews haven't changed the object of their worship since before the days of Muhammad. You are being taught that they did so as an excuse to ignore the words of Muhammad about the Jews being the people of the book and so on.

''Jehovah'' who is being worshipped by the Jews feels tired and regrets if he do wrongs.
But Allah ''the greatest god'' who creates the world never feels tired or regret or forget or sleep as he is the greatest god.
I will make a comparison between Allah and Jehovah from the Bible and the holy Quran.
The Bible says that Jehovah feels tired and regret and it also describe your god as a ''lamb'' and human qualities.
I want to ask the Jews.

How did your god who wrote the Bible say that he is lamb and he felt tired and regret?
I think that men wrote this Bible not god.
Making a comparison between Allah and Jehovah never mean to swear or mock you but to prove and clarify that there is no god but Allah.


There is something you should now know.
The prophet Mohammed <PBUH> was illiterate [can't write or read] when Allah revealed the holy Quran to him.
I know you will ask me:
How did Allah choose illiterate man to be a prophet?
In pre-Islamic time <the time of illiteracy and ignorance>, Quriesh tribes <the folk of the prophet Mohammed> were ignorant and illiterate. They were worshipping idols, drinking al-cohol, committing adultery and oppressing the women. The prophet hated these bad deeds and he was not doing these bad deeds but he was thinking of and meditating the universe: How this universe comes and who creates these creatures.
Among his folk, he was famous for honesty, good morals and sincerity.
Allah has chose this honest and illiterate man to be the last prophet to guide his folk and the creatures.
Many people ask:
How was the wise prophet illiterate while he was saying wise speech?
After choosing the wise man to be a prophet, Allah sent his angel ''Gabriel'' who said to the prophet:
''Mohammed, read''
The prophet said:
''I cant read''
Gabriel repeated his command and the prophet repeated his answer for three times. After that Allah say:
[1. Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
2. Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
3. Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
4. He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
5. Taught man that which he knew not. ]

Allah taught the prophet every thing.Allah says in the holy Quran:

[1. By the Star when it goes down,-

2. Your Companion <the prophet Mohammed> is neither astray nor being misled.

3. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.

4. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:

5. He <the prophet Mohammed> was taught by one Mighty in Power <Allah>,

6. Endued with Wisdom]

When Allah said < He was taught by one Mighty in Power>, he means that he taught the prophet Mohammed.
Illiteracy of the prophet was not shameful thing but it itself is a miracle that stops the mouths of the people who always say that the holy Quran was written by men.

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Why are the numbers of Muslims bigger than the number of people of the other religions?
Egypt is an Islamic country and will be an Islamic country forever.

There are more Christians in the world than Muslims up to a billion more depending on your source. Islam is growing faster but that has more to do with a much higher birth rate than conversion.

Egypt was pagan before it was Christian, true. However by that argument it is no more tragic that Israel is under Jews now not Muslims.

quote:
When Allah said < He was taught by one Mighty in Power>, he means that he taught the prophet Mohammed.
Illiteracy of the prophet was not shameful thing but it itself is a miracle that stops the mouths of the people who always say that the holy Quran was written by men.

That is completely illogical to anyone who isn't a muslim already. You have to stop using the Koran to try and authenticate the Koran.

If Mohammed was literate I'd be more likely to trust the Koran, not less likely.

The historical reality is that the Koran, much like the Christian Bible, existed in differant forms until the government (in your case the Сaliphate, in ours the Roman empire) insisted on an offical version and had the other ones destroyed. Now, like many Evangellical Christians, your people have forgotten this happened, but it did.

[ October 23, 2010, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
You want the Jews to rape Sinai which is a part of Egypt and want us to leave it without defence. Egyptian soldiers recovered Sinai which is a part of Egypt.
Imagine that Arabs rape and capture Texas or New York which is a part of your beautiful home America. What will you do? Will you leave your home without defence?


Oh and please don't lie about how you got Sinai back. It's yours by treaty, not by the force of your military, which failed to recover it on the Israeli's side of the canal. Considering the poor performance of the Egyptian Army against the IDF it doesn't look like your army would stand much of a chance against Israel. (And don't give me the "Allah will grant us victory lie. You already said he allowed the Jews to beat you. Conveniant for Allah that you'll give him credit for any out come.)

[ October 23, 2010, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Hannibal
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Mostafa i have a few questions:

1)There is no freedom of press in the Arab world, why are you so sure that the Arab media and Arab web sites has all the right answers?

2)Why did you say that there are more Muslims than Christians? There are almost twice the amount of Christians as there are Muslims

3)Why did you say Egyptian soldiers recovered the Sinai?
The Sinai was GIVEN back to the Egyptians in exchange of a peace treaty that the Egyptians signed with Israel in 1978.

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TommySama
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Mohammad! Hes going to show you!
He's going to help you find the way
Mohammad! He's going to show you
He and his friends are going to the save the day...
Par-a-dise! There's always someone searching for that paradise
Always someone searching for that paradise.
Paradise. Doo doo doo!

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Chael
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quote:
Originally posted by mostafa:
I will make a comparison between Allah and Jehovah from the Bible and the holy Quran.
The Bible says that Jehovah feels tired and regret and it also describe your god as a ''lamb'' and human qualities.

You do not know enough about Jews, as opposed to Christians, etc., to make proclamations about what they believe.

In this position, you would be best served by asking questions, not making pronouncements.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Chael:
quote:
Originally posted by mostafa:
I will make a comparison between Allah and Jehovah from the Bible and the holy Quran.
The Bible says that Jehovah feels tired and regret and it also describe your god as a ''lamb'' and human qualities.

You do not know enough about Jews, as opposed to Christians, etc., to make proclamations about what they believe.

In this position, you would be best served by asking questions, not making pronouncements.

He's saying what he believes. I find his statements useful to understand how he (and some other Muslims) perceive what the Jews call the Tenach and what we Christians call the Old Testament:

quote:
''Jehovah'' who is being worshipped by the Jews feels tired and regrets if he do wrongs.
But Allah ''the greatest god'' who creates the world never feels tired or regret or forget or sleep as he is the greatest god.
I will make a comparison between Allah and Jehovah from the Bible and the holy Quran.
The Bible says that Jehovah feels tired and regret and it also describe your god as a ''lamb'' and human qualities

Mostafa, do you really believe that the Jews worship a different god, and that Moses used the word "Allah" to describe God and that the Jews wrote down "Jehovah" instead? Or do you believe that the Bible simply makes mistakes when talking about God?
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Chael
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Agreed that his viewpoint is a good one to get.

However, God being a lamb (particularly of the sacrificial variety) is a Christian thing. He attributed it to the viewpoint of Jews. This says to me that he does not know enough about what Jews believe, distinct from what Christians believe--but he is, from his knowledge of what Jews believe, stating that Jews do not worship God. In that situation, the best thing anyone can do is to learn more. When the grounding for one's assumptions is proven shaky, one ought to question them, neh? Perhaps, after further questioning, he will still not believe that Jews worship God; that is his right as a thinking being. But he surely ought to try it first!

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Viking_Longship
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Pete he's saying what he believes as statements of fact. If he's wrong he should be called on it same as anybody else here. To do otherwise might yield some interesting information but it also treats him as an anthropological study. I'm not sure that's respectful as you mean it to be. Chael is right, he should be asking us what we believe, not telling us what we believe (and how wrong and stupid it is compared to the Koran.)

Hannibal I've heard other people, including Americans say that there are more Muslims than Christians in the world. If one breaks Christians apart by denomination there might be more Muslims than Roman Catholics. That said I think Mostafa's of the "if I want it to be true it's true" school of thought, and is either guessing it or learning it from his "teachers".

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Viking_Longship:
Pete he's saying what he believes as statements of fact.

At times he is. At other times he was just answering my question about what he believes.
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mostafa
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When Allah said < He was taught by one Mighty in Power>, he means that he taught the prophet Mohammed.
Illiteracy of the prophet was not shameful thing but it itself is a miracle that stops the mouths of the people who always say that the holy Quran was written by men.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is completely illogical to anyone who isn't a muslim already

Why?

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are the numbers of Muslims bigger than the number of people of the other religions?
Egypt is an Islamic country and will be an Islamic country forever.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are more Christians in the world than Muslims up to a billion more depending on your source

quote:

2)Why did you say that there are more Muslims than Christians? There are almost twice the amount of Christians as there are Muslims


I am sure, without doubt, that the numbers of Christians are bigger than the numbers of Muslims in the world.

You have said that Egypt has become an Islamic country by sword so I have asked you:

Why are the numbers of Muslims bigger than the number of Christians specifically in Egypt not gengerally in the world?


quote:
The historical reality is that the Koran, much like the Christian Bible, existed in differant forms until the government (in your case the Сaliphate, in ours the Roman empire) insisted on an offical version and had the other ones destroyed. Now, like many Evangellical Christians, your people have forgotten this happened, but it did.
You are wrong. The holy Quran never looks like the Gospel and it also was never written by men.


quote:
1)There is no freedom of press in the Arab world, why are you so sure that the Arab media and Arab web sites has all the right answers?

You dont know much about the Arab world to say that we have no freedom of press.

No one can prevent the others from writing in the field of the history or economy in the websites.

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mostafa
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quote:
You already said he allowed the Jews to beat you. Conveniant for Allah that you'll give him credit for any out come.)


Viki, I have talked about that before but the problem is that you dont read the verses of the holy quran that contain the answer to your Question and make you understand.
I will repeat.

quote:
Originally posted by Mostafa:

We <Muslims> shouldn't be disappointed when the Jews kill Muslims in Palestine or rape El-Aqsa but we should pray to Allah and be patient and be sure that Allah test us and he will help us to achieve victory.

We are sure that the innocent Muslims who are being killing daily without reasons are Martyrs and they now are in the paradise.

Allah says in the holy Quran:

[169. Think not of those who are slain in Allah.s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

170. They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve.

171. They glory in the Grace and the bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the Faithful to be lost (in the least).

172. Of those who answered the call of Allah and the Messenger, even after being wounded, those who do right and refrain from wrong have a great reward;-

173. Men said to them: "A great army is gathering against you": And frightened them: But it (only) increased their Faith: They said: "For us Allah sufficeth, and He is the best disposer of affairs.]


Allah told us in the Holy Quran that he may try <test> us. Allah said in the holy Quran:

[155. Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,

156. Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return":-

157. They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.]


Allah does any thing he wants. By virtue of Allah, the Jews beat us.

I know you will ask me why Allah does that with the Jews although he doesn’t prefer them.

You will find the answer in the holy Quran.Allah said in the holy Quran:

[Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!]

Allah wants many infidels to enjoy their life then he will punish them in judgment day.


I will add another thing:

The prophets were hurted much by their folks but Allah made them triumph.for example, the prophet Moses was living with The Pharaoh who treated him unkindly and in a tyrant way for many years and hurted the prophet Moses <PBUH>.The Pharaoh decided to kill the prophet Moses but Allah saved him at the end by drowning the Pharaoh and his folk.


Nowdays, We <Muslims> are hurted by many invaders but we should be patient , keep the holy Quran and remember the history of the prophets who were hurted by their folks and the Early muslims who were tortured and hurted by the infidels and the invaders but after that those Muslims became kings and successors by patience.

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mostafa
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quote:
You do not know enough about Jews, as opposed to Christians, etc., to make proclamations about what they believe
quote:
Mostafa, do you really believe that the Jews worship a different god, and that Moses used the word "Allah" to describe God and that the Jews wrote down "Jehovah" instead? Or do you believe that the Bible simply makes mistakes when talking about God?
quote:
how wrong and stupid it is compared to the Koran.)

I really dont know much about the Jews but I know and read the Bible <the old testament> they believe in.

Jehovah is not Allah because he has human qualities such as feeling tired, regret and rest but Allah said in the holy Quran that he never regrets, sleeps or forgets.

Compare Jehovah in the Bible to Allah <the greatest god of all creatures> in the holy Quran.

Be calm and quiet. Dont be angry.Read and Ponder these verses please:

**Jehovah in the Bible:

''And the Lord saw that the sin of man was great on the earth, and that all the thoughts of his heart were evil.And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart'' <Genesis 6:6>

**Allah in the holy Quran:

"O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful''

''.110. If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah.s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.''

** Jehovah <regrets>in the Bible:

''And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people'' <Ex:32:14>

**Jehovah eats:

''Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire'' <Nm:28:2 >

**After creating the sun and the earth, Jehovah felt tired so he rested:

''It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'' < Ex.31.17>

**Jehovah sleeps:

''the LORD awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine'' < Ps:78:65 >

''Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever'' <Ps:44:23 >

''.Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation'' <Zec:2:13 >

**Jehova cried:

''I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls.'' <Mi:1:8 >

**Jehova described himself as an animal:

''I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.'' <Hos:13:8>

**Allah said in the holy Quran:

''255. Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).''


I never make up these verses. Open your bible and you will find all what I have said.

The purpose of mentioning these verses is not to swear or mock you but to clarify that Jehovah is not Allah and also to prove that there is no god but Allah

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The purpose of mentioning these verses is not to swear or mock you but to clarify that Jehovah is not Allah...
The reason Pete is having trouble understanding this is that, historically, Muslims have insisted that the God described in the Jewish Torah is the same God as the one described in the Qu'ran. That, in fact, they regard what Christians consider the "Old Testament" to be part of their scripture, which is why both Christians and Jews are considered by Muslims to be "People of the Book."
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Pete at Home
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Thank you, Tom. Mostafa, you posted my question of whether you believe that the Old Testament describes a different god, or do you believe that the Bible simply makes mistakes when talking about God. But nothing you said answered my question. Tom has explained what I am asking you.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
The purpose of mentioning these verses is not to swear or mock you but to clarify that Jehovah is not Allah...
The reason Pete is having trouble understanding this is that, historically, Muslims have insisted that the God described in the Jewish Torah is the same God as the one described in the Qu'ran. That, in fact, they regard what Christians consider the "Old Testament" to be part of their scripture, which is why both Christians and Jews are considered by Muslims to be "People of the Book."

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noel
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Pete,

Mostafa is answering your question.

The Islamic god transcends *all* human experience, up to, and including logic itself. His vantage point of diety is the polar opposite of Mormonism, which understands Christ as having "descended below all things" [D&C 88:6].

I might take issue with him on the issue of "mercifulness" (or "forgivness"), as human in origin, but you are not going to get a more clear answer from Mostafa to the question posed. The Bible "makes mistakes when talking about (the Islamic) God" in ascribing human attributes.

I mentioned this in the early pages of "Islamic Center" thread, and I think that you assumed I was kidding, or being hyperbolic.

[ October 31, 2010, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: noel ]

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Pete at Home
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Be nice, Noel. To be fair to Mostafa, some of the verses that he outline do seem to contradict other teachings about God in the Bible itself. "God is not a man, that he should repent," and yet "it repenteth God that he made man." I resolve it by saying that much of the Old Testament is describing what God has said to the prophets, and observing what happened, but when God doesn't explain himself directly, the writers speculate about his motives. E.g. when Pharaoh does stuff that seems inhumanly stupid, they say that God must have hardened his heart. It's like when we call castastrophes "acts of God." But most LDS and other Christians aren't comfortable with that interpretation, so ...
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noel
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Pete,

I do not believe Mostafa will take offense at what I said.

Pointing to behavioral/attitudinal incongruencies is quite a distinct exercise than simply asserting the impossibility of reconciliation due to an absence of anything to be reconciled.

Mostafa is being very consistent in holding the latter view.

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Pete at Home
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We'll see. It looks to me like a simple language misunderstanding, since Mostafa grouped my question with comments of others who were asking a very different question. That and I don't understand what you're asserting as his point of view.
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noel
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Pete,

What I am saying is that Mostafa's view of God is much like that of classic Christian creedalism in which God is without body, parts, or passions.

His critique of the OT essentially hinges upon the *inconsistent* expression of human emotions, attributed to God, as evidence that God *cannot* have emotions. To make such an assignment would be interpreted as debasement of Allah... or, conversly, the exaltation of man.

He rejects the God of Jews, and Christians, for this reason. There is no potential for ecumenicalism on the nature of Deity to be found in a search for common ground, at least on this topic, with a Moslem.

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Viking_Longship
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Mostafa I read what you wrote before.I understood it, that didn't mean it persuaded me. Someone can understand your arguments and still not agree with them. I had to read the Koran in university, it didn't persuade me either. You're basing all your arguments on the idea that if people read the Koran they'd believe it, that's not how it works for the Koran, the Bible, or any other religious book.

[ October 31, 2010, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

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Viking_Longship
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quote:
Originally posted by noel:
Pete,

What I am saying is that Mostafa's view of God is much like that of classic Christian creedalism in which God is without body, parts, or passions.

His critique of the OT essentially hinges upon the *inconsistent* expression of human emotions, attributed to God, as evidence that God *cannot* have emotions. To make such an assignment would be interpreted as debasement of Allah... or, conversly, the exaltation of man.

He rejects the God of Jews, and Christians, for this reason. There is no potential for ecumenicalism on the nature of Deity to be found in a search for common ground, at least on this topic, with a Moslem.

Which would be fine if he hadn't been using the Bible as an authorative source in earlier arguments.
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