Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Not Israel's greatest moment... (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4   
Author Topic: Not Israel's greatest moment...
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2?CMP=twt_gu

To sum up: an Israeli captain who ordered his men to shoot and kill a Palestinian schoolgirl who wandered into a fire zone and, once she was down, approached and fired twice into her head to "confirm the kill" was found innocent of all charges. Not because he didn't actually do the things of which he was accused, but because the military agreed that the cold-blooded murder of schoolgirls was in accordance with procedure.

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow are you digging old news or what?
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's an old story. People don't understand that the occupation necessitates these atrocities.
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's a pretty horrible story and the Israeli captain should have been convicted of war crimes.

That's a seriously, aberrant soldier to knowingly shoot a 13 year old school girl in the head, but honestly I'm more concerned with the judicial process that led to his acquittal.

I agree that it's a pretty old story, but it was news to me and I'm glad TomDavidson posted it.

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It was news to me in the sense that I'd heard about it in passing, but hadn't actually seen the details anywhere. And the details are what make it odious.

If it's truly old news -- in the sense that policies have changed to prevent this sort of thing from happening again -- then I'm glad to hear it. Otherwise, it seems to me that it's still pretty relevant.

[ August 30, 2010, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
its horrible, sad, satan himself would not have dreamed on such an act.

Now check what are the protocol in the US and UK forces about an un-authorized person closing in on their position.

please post that protocol here if you can.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Colin JM0397
Member
Member # 916

 - posted      Profile for Colin JM0397   Email Colin JM0397   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It’s news to me, and the justifying that we can always count on from Hannibal isn’t old or a small matter.

Of course you justify it, and therein is the horror to many of us.

The fact that in this situation you have gotten to a place where killing a little girl is considered necessary, proper, and justified.

I'm sure you feel exactly that, and that is why, IMO, we are all rather soulless these days.

It might be necessary in your world, but not in mine. In a world where such things are necessary, what are you really trying to preserve?

Humanity?
Peace?
Love?
Sanity?

None of those things are being saved or preserved, yet it is those things that are necessary if we are ever to end the madness. Otherwise we will continue to get more of the same.

Posts: 4738 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Colin JM0397
Member
Member # 916

 - posted      Profile for Colin JM0397   Email Colin JM0397   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm expecting something akin to Col Jessup's rant as a rebuttal/explaniation.
quote:
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand at post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Posts: 4738 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"If it's truly old news -- in the sense that policies have changed to prevent this sort of thing from happening again -- then I'm glad to hear it. "

Oh I didn't say that. Is the occupation over? :\

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G2
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2?CMP=twt_gu

To sum up: an Israeli captain who ordered his men to shoot and kill a Palestinian schoolgirl who wandered into a fire zone and, once she was down, approached and fired twice into her head to "confirm the kill" was found innocent of all charges. Not because he didn't actually do the things of which he was accused, but because the military agreed that the cold-blooded murder of schoolgirls was in accordance with procedure.

That's not quite the summation you make it out to be. A lot went on during the incident and subsequent investigation - charges of cover-up, recanted testimony by a couple of key witnesses and some seemingly strange explanations for behavior. "Captain R" has been compensated, he's filing a libel suit - neither of which I would expect if this incident was what you sum it up to be.

How did such a young girl wander into the "no-man's" zone near the IDF OP? Was she lost? Was she a decoy designed to draw IDF soldiers out? It sounds like everyone in the OP opened up on her so all of them must have thought something was going down.

I don't know if we'll ever get the truth about what led to this tragedy. As long as we're digging into the past, Maybe we can look at something from the 1970's next and pretend it's still relevant too. [DOH]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He actually won the libel suit - but again, the basic facts were upheld even then. They knew she was just a little girl and killed her anyway.
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
OceanRunner
Member
Member # 5605

 - posted      Profile for OceanRunner   Email OceanRunner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
its horrible, sad, satan himself would not have dreamed on such an act.

Now check what are the protocol in the US and UK forces about an un-authorized person closing in on their position.

please post that protocol here if you can.

There's protocol and there's common sense; anyone who thinks a soldier just shoots because them's orders and it's peachy no matter what lacks a grasp of the subtleties of military ethics and conduct.
Posts: 740 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Viking_Longship
Member
Member # 3358

 - posted      Profile for Viking_Longship   Email Viking_Longship       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
He actually won the libel suit - but again, the basic facts were upheld even then. They knew she was just a little girl and killed her anyway.

I wonder why we look at this with revulsion but can look upon the deaths of thousands of arab children through "collataral damage" and say "it's tragic but it's worth it. Saddam had to be stopped."

[ August 30, 2010, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Viking_Longship ]

Posts: 5765 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"There's protocol and there's common sense"

Common sense goes to hell in wars.

How many countries waged wars with common sense?

Did you guys use common sense when you flattened tokyo with incendiary bombs?

Did your apache pilots use common sense when they flattened bagdhad?

I am not trying to take any position about this incident. I am merely trying to broaden your perspective of things.

Sure, a 13 year old girl is dead. but life is not that simple. The palestinians HAVE used children as traps in the past.
The Israeli army did not went into a palestinian village, round up all the children, marched them off to a forest and shot them yes? This was not what happned.
what happned was that an un authorized human being approached an army position, after repeated warnings (In arabic ofcourse) to turn back. Further more, this was not "crossing the road to the other side", there is a 200 meters "no mans land" on the way to the position, and the human being continued to approach without turning back.

Again, I am not speaking for or against the incident, I would most probably not have shot her, I am a geek, If I was ordered to guard a security post I would most certainly be killed because I would not suspect people hard enough.

Again, I am merely trying to broaden your perspective a little more than the "IDF Officer empties an M-16 clip on a 13 year old girl and gets equitted" headline

When stuff happnes in Israel, suddenly everyone should use his/her common sense.

The only "logical" way of thought here is the one that is used to discredit Israel in any means possible.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5126873.ece

Girl of 13 becomes youngest suicide bomber in day of carnageJames Hider, Middle East Correspondent A 13-year-old girl became the youngest suicide bomber to wreak havoc in Iraq yesterday, killing five Iraqi guards in a town that has become notorious for deadly attacks by women bombers.

The girl blew herself up in Baquba, on the same day that a car bomb exploded in Baghdad, killing about 30 people and shattering a fragile sense of calm in the capital.

The carnage was compounded by a male suicide bomber who joined the crowd of rescue workers, bystanders and frantic relatives of victims before blowing himself up in a follow-up explosion.

Police and medics said the Baquba bomber was a girl of just 13 years old, making her the youngest person yet to blow themselves up in the conflict.

In the past militants have exploited women and youngsters for use as suicide bombers. In one case child passengers were used as decoys to enable a car bomb to be smuggled past unsuspecting US soldiers before it was detonated with the young boys still inside.

Insurgents have also used children to bury roadside bombs and even fire rocket-propelled grenades at US forces. This callous deployment of youngsters has helped to fuel a backlash against groups such as al-Qaeda within the Sunni community.

The target of the teenage bomber was a patrol by the Sons of Iraq, former Sunni insurgents who have turned on al-Qaeda.

Many of the victims of the car bombing in the Sunni area of Addumiyah in northern Baghdad were schoolgirls, travelling in a minibus.

----------------------------------------

This happened after the Israel incident but I was just curious about something so typed in "13 year old suicide bomber" and searched to see what would pop up.

It's tougher to complain about 13 year olds getting shot when they are used as suicide bombers. And how are they supposed to know how old she is anyway before they shoot? If you got close enough to find out, you could be dead.

Obviously there's probably no way to find out who sent her in there in the first place, but that would be the party most culpable for her death.

It's pretty sad to think about the possibility that the Israelis killing her may even have saved some other children from being used as suicide bombers, at least for a while. Someone sent her in to see if she could get close enough to kill the Israelis, but of course this was a dry run to force the Israelis into a public relations nightmare. If the girl had gotten through though to ask for candy or whatever, the next child may have had a bomb attached.

Also, condeming only the Israelis for incidents like this tells the people who sent her in there to die that the negative publicity for Israel made it worth it and encourages them to do it again. That just falls for their gambit. A better response to discourage them might be to give them the negative publicity instead of heaping it all on Israel.

Posts: 7675 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cherry, it's one thing, under the circumstances, to shoot a girl closing on your position. It's another thing to fire point blank into her head to "confirm the kill."
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Cherry, it's one thing, under the circumstances, to shoot a girl closing on your position. It's another thing to fire point blank into her head to "confirm the kill."

What does it matter? she was already dead.

It only matters to your evolved western point of view that holds zero credibility on the ground in the middle east. Trust me, You are not here, we are.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G2
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Cherry, it's one thing, under the circumstances, to shoot a girl closing on your position. It's another thing to fire point blank into her head to "confirm the kill."

I'm not defending it but I do understand it. She's there, could have a bomb (she has a bag, detonator in her hand or pocket?), you're scared she'll blow it up while you're right there, adrenaline is pumping, etc. The guy was wrong to do it but I can see how to got to that point under those circumstances.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe the guy still didn't know if she had a suicide bomb on her and wanted to make sure she couldn't detonate one or pull the pin on a grenade or something. Obviously I wasn't there and I don't know what happened but I do remember one of our Marines in Iraq had some questions asked about one of his shootings because it looked like his enemy was trying to surrender, but the Marine thought he made a suspicious move and didn't hesitate to shoot.

I remember seeing a video of a cop holding a lady at gunpoint in the street. She had her hands up. She made a move and one of her hands casually went down behind her back. The cop shot her without hesitation. She had no weapons and was apparently just trying to scratch her bum.

In WW2 our soldiers in the Pacific didn't always accept the "surrender" of Japanese soldiers because they apparently had the clumsly habit of accidently dropping grenades when our soldiers would try to take them into custody.

The way our enemy fights, without any honor according to our sense of the word, can make it unnecessarily suicidal to try to fight them with the chivalrous standards to which we might fantasize about holding ourselves.

If she had a suicide bomb with a deadman's switch it's safer to shoot her from a fair distance and make sure she is dead to let it go off before you get close enough to investigate. He might also have been shooting her to let her move around a bit in case she fell on a deadman's switch so hopefully jostling her could set it off before he moves her by hand and puts himself at risk.

Maybe they need some ACLU lawyers on hand at some of these stations. "Hey, we got someone suspicous out here. Go out there and check it out."

Remember what Patton said to his soldiers: "You're not here to die for your country. You're here to help the other guy dies for his."

Posts: 7675 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The way our enemy fights, without any honor according to our sense of the word, can make it unnecessarily suicidal to try to fight them with the chivalrous standards to which we might fantasize about holding ourselves.
Our enemy fights without honor! So, therefore, must we!
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Colin JM0397
Member
Member # 916

 - posted      Profile for Colin JM0397   Email Colin JM0397   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Who, exactly, are "our enemy"?
No honor? [Roll Eyes]
That's funny coming from an American. In an ancient land where face-to-face warfare is the norm, where a man proves himself a warrior the old-fashioned way, what do you think they say about our standoff capability to kill them without getting our hands dirty?
I’ll wager they accuse us of that very same thing. As if Predator drone strikes (that tend to kill as many civilians as combatants) are the pinnacle of honorable warfare.
There is no such thing.

They do not have the luxury of such weapons, so us being there and fighting them forces them into a certain style of fighting. These things don’t happen in a vacuum, and our actions over there create certain results. It’s easy to lob accusations at “our enemy” about how immoral they are, yet in the real world we need to look at our part of that equation. It takes two sides, at least, to make a war. Short of total destruction (or the threat of such as with WWII Japan), then it takes both sides to also end the war. Total destruction is not an option in Afghanistan or Iraq, so that means continual fighting will keep giving us poor results, and our enemy will continue to oppose us in any way they can.

I'm not making a judgment call, just pointing out it is necessary to understand "our enemy". They aren't monsters, and they aren't idiots, and they have specific reasons why they oppose us. If you don’t respect and understand your enemy, they will surprise you every time.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Re the girl being killed, I'll ask again, for everyone, do you find this acceptable? Not do you think it is "right" or "wrong", but do you find it acceptable?

I think I'm seeing most folks here saying it is not acceptable.

If it is not acceptable, why then do we sit by and accept such things in our world?

Posts: 4738 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
starLisa
Member
Member # 2543

 - posted      Profile for starLisa   Email starLisa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, for crying out loud. First of all, Tom, if you want to dredge things up from five years ago, I can do far better with Arab atrocities.

Second of all, this girl, who was of an age to have been a suicide bomber, and who was wearing a backpack, which is common for suicide bombers, was miles away from her school, in the opposite direction from her home, inside a fenced area that was a military outpost. Gee, I can't imagine why she was shot.

As far as "confirming the kill", that's an accusation that was made in the press. Don't assume it's true just because you read it. Although from the fact that Tom posted this 5 years after the soldier was acquitted, it's pretty clear that the purpose of his post was the same as the purpose of claiming that the soldier "confirmed the kill". Just to defame Israel.

Lastly, I just thought it might be interesting to mention that the soldier who shot her was an Arab. A Druze Arab, to be precise. Not that it matters, but from all the reports, you'd think this was a case of some rabid Jew blowing away an Arab girl out of racist motives.

Posts: 2066 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
starLisa
Member
Member # 2543

 - posted      Profile for starLisa   Email starLisa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colin JM0397:
I'm not making a judgment call, just pointing out it is necessary to understand "our enemy". They aren't monsters, and they aren't idiots, and they have specific reasons why they oppose us. If you don’t respect and understand your enemy, they will surprise you every time.

It isn't monstrous to use children as cannon fodder? See, I think it is. And they oppose Israel for the simple reason that Israel exists. A Jewish state of any kind, shape or size, is absolutely unacceptable to the Arabs.

quote:
Originally posted by Colin JM0397:
Re the girl being killed, I'll ask again, for everyone, do you find this acceptable? Not do you think it is "right" or "wrong", but do you find it acceptable?

I think I'm seeing most folks here saying it is not acceptable.

If it is not acceptable, why then do we sit by and accept such things in our world?

Actually, it's 100% acceptable. And frankly, I have yet to hear any suggestions of what she was doing there in the first place. She wasn't "near her school" as some of the articles had it. She was miles away from her school. She wasn't on her way home; her home was in the opposite direction.

I can only think of one plausible explanation for her being there. Which is that she was sent there deliberately knowing that she'd probably be shot (she may not have realized it; she may have been told to go that way for some other reason). The so-called Palestinians have done such things in the past. And if she wasn't shot, her being there would have desensitized the soldiers at the outpost to wandering schoolgirls. Do that a few times, and then you can send one in with a backpack full of explosives, and no one will stop her.

Anyone who doesn't think that's a realistic scenario might want to offer an alternative reason as to why she was there.

Posts: 2066 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
starLisa
Member
Member # 2543

 - posted      Profile for starLisa   Email starLisa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
That's an old story. People don't understand that the occupation necessitates these atrocities.

People like you won't let us end the occupation, Ricky.
Posts: 2066 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Lisa, it's interesting that your posts boil down to, well, the Colonel Jessup line you saw earlier: "You need me on that wall!"

This girl had to die to maintain that wall. So concluded at least two courts and, of course, a number of right-wing Jews; it is also, as you note, likely that several Palestinians felt the same way. How many more must do so?

What, precisely, is the value of that wall, as measured in the lives of young girls?

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 6161

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Apparently, for some, it depends on the race of the young girls.
Posts: 2635 | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JWatts
Member
Member # 6523

 - posted      Profile for JWatts   Email JWatts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.
I can't say for certain that this is an accurate statement, but it's the only source I've seen so far. Assuming it's true there was no justification for the shooting and it was a heinous act.

1) The soldiers new she was a "a little girl".
2) She dropped her bag.
3) She was heading away from the army post.
4) She was killed.

If those statements are true, there is no justification for the shooting. Wrong is wrong. There is no subjective morality that will overcome the fact that shooting a 13 year old child running away from you is Evil.

Posts: 4700 | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
The way our enemy fights, without any honor according to our sense of the word, can make it unnecessarily suicidal to try to fight them with the chivalrous standards to which we might fantasize about holding ourselves.
Our enemy fights without honor! So, therefore, must we!
Like Lisa's statement that the soldier was acquitted (since the soldier was only acquitted with the minor issues that he was charged with), that statement misses the point.

More importantly, Tom's initial thread did horribly distort things since Tom presented highly inflamatory claims as if they were established facts.

If the facts were as bad as Tom said, then why would he emphasize the aspects of the story which were most likely fabricated?

Perhaps because it sounds less outrageous to say that --

Israel uses pretty much the same principles of engagement that any other military would use under the circumstances, i.e. that if 13 year old girls with explosive backpacks at you, then if you're guarding people from danger, a 13 year old that comes unauthorized into the perimeter is likely going to become a victim of perceived self-defense.

-- and sounds more outrageous to say that Israeli regulations allow or require soldiers to confirm their kills by unloading guns into the heads of wounded civillians.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
starLisa
Member
Member # 2543

 - posted      Profile for starLisa   Email starLisa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Apparently, for some, it depends on the race of the young girls.

Sure. Except that the shooter was an Arab, too. So I guess you can't whip out your cheap and dishonest accusation of racism this time, Kat. So sorry.
Posts: 2066 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tom

For Crying Out Loud?!?

What do you want? We are not in Swizerland here.

Israel does not fight 12000km from its borders.

20km behind our soldiers' backs are the homes of their family and friends.

It is sad that children die in combat zones.

Trying to equivalent this REAL LIFE story to some Hollywood movie about american soldiers beating each other to death is BS to the extreme.

Why dont you compare that Israeli officer to the General in Avatar while you are at it? He smoke a cigar and drank his coffee while his army blew up the Blue-Aliens Gaza, I mean, Tree of Life.


IF ONLY WE COULD JUST GET ALONG!!!!

NEWS FALSH TOM

ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS DO NOT GET ALONG, WE KILL EACH OTHER WE ARE AT WAR


THIS IS NOT SWITZERLAND

WAKE TF UP

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While we are invoking movies to conform to real life cases

"1) The soldiers new she was a "a little girl"."

In which Vietnam war movie did a little girl approcahed an american helicopter and threw a grenade in a shoe box in? Was it "Good Morning Vietnam" ? or "Platoon" ?

Enough with the "Little Girl" crap. Nobody here invented the little girl carrying explosives scenario and nobody invented the shooting of the little girl scenario it was all done in the past many many times.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
vulture
Member
Member # 84

 - posted      Profile for vulture   Email vulture   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
While we are invoking movies to conform to real life cases

"1) The soldiers new she was a "a little girl"."

In which Vietnam war movie did a little girl approcahed an american helicopter and threw a grenade in a shoe box in? Was it "Good Morning Vietnam" ? or "Platoon" ?

"Apocalypse Now", I believe. And she was 16-18ish IIRC from my impression.
Posts: 1768 | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I donno all those Asian chicks seem flat chested to me its hard to judge their age correctly

Oh no!

THOSE DARN RACIST ISRAELIS ARE DOING IT AGAIN NOW THEY CALL ASIAN CHICKS FLAT CHESTED!

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Tom presented highly inflamatory claims as if they were established facts.
IIRC, the fact that she was shot twice in the head at close range was completely undisputed at trial. That the captain in question fired at least twice at close range was also undisputed, and no one else appears to have done so. He is also on tape as having "confirmed the kill;" those are his words.

I haven't seen a single document disputing these things, and I've read a few articles on this now. I will freely admit that there may well be more details out there, especially in the Israeli press, that I haven't seen.

That he was not proven to have shot her in the head was, as far as I can tell, because whether he shot her again in the head was not considered material to the dispute, and because he managed to produce some doubt about the honesty of the eyewitness accounts from his own command.

----------

quote:
Trying to equivalent this REAL LIFE story to some Hollywood movie about american soldiers beating each other to death is BS to the extreme.
Rather, I am pointing out that Jessup's argument in that B.S. Hollywood movie is not simply some straw man argument: he is sure that Santiago's death was necessary. He regrets it. He did not want Santiago to die. But he is willing to lie to cover up that death because he believes strongly that the safety and security of other lives under his command -- and perhaps even of an entire country -- depends upon that act.

What is interesting is that, while it is clearly an illegal act, it is still arguably a morally justifiable one.

And it is one that you are justifying here. "It is a shame this girl died, but we are at war; as long as we are at war, horrible things will happen."

And yet you keep fighting a war.

[ August 31, 2010, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
"Cherry, it's one thing, under the circumstances, to shoot a girl closing on your position. It's another thing to fire point blank into her head to "confirm the kill."

What does it matter? she was already dead.

It only matters to your evolved western point of view that holds zero credibility on the ground in the middle east. Trust me, You are not here, we are.

Trust you? If our ideals are as different from yours as you say, then how could we trust each other?
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"People like you won't let us end the occupation, Ricky. "

Riiiight, because you want to, right? How exactly? By expelling all the Arabs so you're not occupying anyone? Please.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
starLisa
Member
Member # 2543

 - posted      Profile for starLisa   Email starLisa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Lisa, it's interesting that your posts boil down to, well, the Colonel Jessup line you saw earlier: "You need me on that wall!"

Not at all. So long as the Arabs are sending suicide bombers of all ages and genders, someone walking into a closed military camp is risking his life. Do you think Israel should risk the lives of its own people in order to be extra sure not to hurt members of the nation that's on the record as wanting to destroy it?

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
What, precisely, is the value of that wall, as measured in the lives of young girls?

Oh, stop with the "young girl" crap, will you? A 13 year old in the middle east is not the same as a 13 year old in America. These are "children" who are raised with machine guns in their hands and murder in their hearts.

Palestinian Authority child: Fatah Conference taught me to be a combatant and fight Israel

PA kids' war song to terrorist: "I want to carry a machine gun and a rifle"

Boy sings to victory over Israel and US Daddy gave me a present, machine gun and rifle

Child at Fatah event in Cairo: We will liberate "Palestine" with weapons

Palestinians declare Israeli cities are "Palestine"

Kids shown video of their mother's suicide bombing death on Hamas TV

Hamas teaches children to be suicide terrorists "like Mommy"

Fight Jews for mother's honor

Hamas children show teaches: Jews are murderers

Palestinian children are taught: Genocide is God's will

A clip indoctrinating teenage Palestinian children

The New Barbarians: Training Children to Kill

Posts: 2066 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
starLisa
Member
Member # 2543

 - posted      Profile for starLisa   Email starLisa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
"People like you won't let us end the occupation, Ricky. "

Riiiight, because you want to, right? How exactly? By expelling all the Arabs so you're not occupying anyone? Please.

By annexing Judea and Samaria and any other parts of the Land of Israel that fall into our hands. And as far as expelling is concerned, don't be deceitful. You didn't mind expelling Jews in 2005. And you're not just against expelling Arabs; you're against any sort of encouragement for them to leave. I think you're afraid of how many of them would go if we offered them a monetary grant to start over elsewhere.
Posts: 2066 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 99

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
These are "children" who are raised with machine guns in their hands and murder in their hearts.
Like, say, Israel teenagers conscripted into the army? Or do the machine guns they get forced into their hands only dehumanize them later, after their tender formative years?

quote:
Do you think Israel should risk the lives of its own people in order to be extra sure not to hurt members of the nation that's on the record as wanting to destroy it?
Not only do I think Israel should, I think Israel regularly does. To its credit.

-------

For the record, I am not even slightly opposed to offering monetary grants to any resident of Israel to cover the cost of relocation elsewhere. I would be opposed, however, to any grants which came simultaneously with financial disincentives to remain.

[ August 31, 2010, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"he is willing to lie to cover up that death because he believes strongly that the safety and security of other lives under his command"

Yes... But In our REAL LIFE case and not in the scripted limited world of the MOVIE there wasnt a coverup. There was a detailed thorough investigation. The officer was in jail for several months, it was a very serious case *5 years ago* with mutual law suits and alot of crap.

You just unilaterally decided that the Israeli court, unlike the enlightned American court (in the MOVIE) had indeed decided to cover up, because you dont see any evidence prooving otherwise. because to you we are guilty untill proven innocent.

The fact that our courts are more liberal, free and advanced than yours by several years does not stop you.


There was no cover up. There was an investigation. Albiet angering to you, you need to Accept the outcome.

"And yet you keep fighting a war."

How poetic...
pretend I supplied a suitable poetic response right back at you

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1